NOT the end of my '93 metro...Life after death! RINGS

The voltage measured at the TPS is based on the factory set position of the throttle plate inside the throttle body. As you wrote that the instructions say, "adjust when the throttle is closed".

Moving the screw changes the throttle closed position that the voltage should match at the predetermined throttle position. The TPS senses the throttle plate position any time the key is on, regardless if the engine is running or not.

The TPS does not sense air flow, fuel, or fuel mixture. MAFS's sense air flow. Your EEC system probably does not use a MAFS. MAFS=Mass Air Flow Sensor. Do you have some thing that is a mesh screen that goes between your air filter and the throttle body. When the intake air is not flowing through a MAFS or there is a leak between it and the throttle body, or it is not connected electronicly, an engine will not idle.

The bi metal switching valve use temperature to open or close vacuum. This may be where the EGR operation is blocked off before the engine reaches opperating temperature.

I keep setting stuff down and forgetting where I left it! I constantly misplace
my tools, glasses, keys, wallet - I'm luck my butt is screwed on or I'd lose that!

Found my Chilton Manual...Here is what it says about testing the Fuel Pump:

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9773/chiltonfptestinghe8.jpg

I don't understand the bit about jumpering the Fuel Pump Relay...(?)
Do they mean that one shorts out the relay so the Fuel Pump won't be turned
off by the Computer? Bet that's it.... Remove the relay first?

This is my gripe about Chilton - they say the bare minimum for explanations!
You'd think some beancounter limits how many words they can use to write this!

They give about twice the Fuel Pressure as I last saw given. (?) 33 PSI !

That is a lot of pressure!

By the way, could I also test the amps the Fuel Pump draws? If bad, would it draw more
or less amperes?

DoctorBill

Your computer is not in the loop, or is it? Fuel pump pressure is controlled by the fuel pressure regulator. The fuel pressure regulator is totally mechanical using a spring to regulate fuel pressure the same way that an oil pressure relief valve regulates engine oil pressure produced by an engine oil pump. Fuel pressure is lowered by using manifold vacuum on a diaphram to reduce the spring pressure. When you accelerate, manifold vacuum drops and lets the spring put more pressure on the fuel regulating part of the regulator which causes less fuel to return to the fuel tank and fuel pressure is increased about 5 PSI.

An oil pressure sensor sends oil pressure info to the computer so that the computer can turn the fuel pump off when the engine is not running. This is a safety feature that prevents fuel from continueing to pump in the event of an accident that may result in a fuel leak. Consider the poor sole upside down in the ditch unable to turn off his ignition. These are what great movie scenes are all about.

Fuel systems are primed for two seconds when the ignition is first turned. After the engine starts, the computer continues to supply voltage to the fuel pump. Your fuel system primes and your engine continues to run. Your fuel pump is running when it is supposed to.

So I can not agree with your assesment. You give the computer too much credit.

Valves burn because they get a tiny leak and the heat of combustion fire overheats the section of the valve seat like a cutting torch and burns it some more until there is not enough compression and heat to continue burning away the metal. Valves do burn rather quickly. Effects from burned valve damage could be noticable within minutes if not seconds.

If you remove the fuel pump relay and look at the connectors, you should see little numbers. If you use a jumper wire that connects the same connections in the fuse block that are marked 3 & 4 on the relay, the fuelpump will run continuosly as it does during the two second prime. Approximatley 30 psi is a common pressure for automotive fuel systems. Many fuel systems use twice as much pressure. I have never heard of an electronic fuel injection system that uses only 13-15 psi, maybe early VW and Porsche, or maybe I have just never heard of one that does. A bad fuel pump would draw more and blow the fuse. A dead fuel pump also may not have any draw. Fuel pumps are not intermittent or sometimes low on pressure. Fuel pumps either supply fuel or they do not, and the FPR controls the fuel pressure.

You are telling me that I can go from "good" valves to an edge burned off like in my #1 exhaust valve - in a few minutes!

"Valves do burn rather quickly. Effects from burned valve damage could be noticable within minutes if not seconds.

That is incredible!

OK on the Fuel Pump and the Compuker....Then what is the "Fuel Pump Relay
Jumper" thing about in those destructions I posted?

Also I seem to remember a drawing of the Idle Adjust Screw that was just an air or fuel bleed...
nothing electrical or mechanical (?) I'll have to find the diagram...

If the Fuel Pump is bad, I'll have to have my Baby towed into the shop...

I'll keep you posted as I work on it.

DoctorBill

Understanding why my writing about looking into the distributor is confusing, I will try to better explain. I don't know what the inside of your distributor looks like... you haven't posted an exposing photo if it yet. If you can see where the sensor coil is directly aligned with the part that turns, the ignition signal occurs as it passes the point of direct allignment. So if you set the distributor so that the alignment has just passed when the crank pulley is aligned with the correct timing mark on the timing belt cover, you will be very close to the correct ignition timing when you set your timing with a light. Ignition timing and TPS signal (and MAF if used) are used during open loop. When the engine reaches operating temperature the Coolant temperature switch signals the computer and if the O2 sensor is sending a signal, the computer will go into closed loop and begin making adjustments according to input from the other sensors.

Hopefully you are talking about some type of air control screw that allows a fine tune setting the same way that IAC is capable of adjusting electronicly on other EEC sytems. The screw that should never be turned is the idle stop screw that the throttle return spring closes the throttle against. Valve seat that are sealing stay cool. A slight leak is simular to a cutting torch that burns the valve away until there isn't enough heat to continue.

Hot off the griddle - I just did this....

I had a good quality "Oil Filled Guage" which I used to measure the Fuel Pressure
with as the car was running. So this is What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get.

The pressure in the photo is after the engine was killed and the PSI's were falling.
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/2510/finfppressure1xf3.jpg

The fuel pressure hopped up to around 23-25 PSI quickly and started to drop off
as the idle dropped. Pumping the gas made the pressure go back up and it
sort of averaged at around 20 PSI I would say.

I think a good working pump would not allow any pressure change to occur...

After killing the engine, the pressure stayed at 23 and very, very slowly dropped off.

The Fuel Return Valve is good at least! I had a new Fuel Filter put on last Fall just before
this crap started happening. No kinks or such there. New....

So - the pressure is not at specification. If 33 PSI is nominal pressure , I am
running at about 60% nominal....I'll repeat it just to make sure! Be back and
edit in the results.

BTW - Here is a pic of my Distributor.....

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4214/findistributor1mp0.jpg

and with the cap off

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4620/findistopenzz9.jpg

DoctorBill

Great picture but I need to see inside. If the fuel pressure is incorrect the problem is with the pressure regulator or a restricted fuel filter. Fuel pressure may be 26 psi at idle and increase to 32 when you accelerate or remove the vacuum hose to the regulator.

Is there a metal blade protruding from the part with the wires? Since you have a three cylinder you need to make sure that the number one cylinder is on its compression stroke when the timing marks are aligned. If the marks are aligned when you took the picture and one of the three ridges on the distributor shaft are not close to aligning with the blade in the ignitor, you need to turn the pulley one turn and align the timing marks again. Then you can rotate the distributor until the ridge and blade are just past direct alignment with each other.

Window would be on a different type ignition system that uses a disk with one window for each cylinder. Yours isn't that type.

I agree with your signature quote. It is a wise man indeed who raelizes what we don't really know from watching and listening to predomenently video tabloid news.

I am not sure why I connect with the All in the Family TV scene that left the most memorable impression on me. Archie speaking to the Meathead says, Let me share a little secret with you that I am sure you are not aware of, If every God fearing Christian were to put one or two villians of their misery... Crime in America would be reduced by nearly 50%.

I posted the open view later on in the 1:18 PM post...I am trying to keep the
number of Posts down - it is getting out of hand!

Always go back and see if I added anything!

There are three peaks on the rotor stub. They must make a signal as they
pass the black pickup coil.

I don't know what you mean by a "window"....

What is that open hole at the very bottom for? I have to look at the
Distributor with a mirror and a flashlight to see well - can't get my head down
into the engine compartment there - too big.

And my eyes aren't worth squat anymore - need glasses for closeup - my
eyesight is bad!

The Pressure Regulator Valve is New! I replaced it long ago - kit from Schucks.

I suppose I have to go back down by the Fuel Filter to see if the Pump is bad, huh?
Shit! I don't like screwing around there - fuel gets everywhere!

The idea of getting burned to death is not one I like to envision....

DoctorBill

i still think you should take the return line off and check for a good flow of fuel while its running, the one that i had that drove me nuts trying to fix had the correct fuel pressure so i assumed it was a sensor and checked every one on the engine. still no difference and it wouldn't go over 30 and missed a lot. i finally took return line off and nothing was coming out. the pressure was fine but it had almost no flow. may not be whats wrong with yours but quick and easy to check

Ah!

I finally see what you mean...you think fuel cannot go thru the Throttle Body.

Take the return line off, put another hose on it into a can and see if fuel is
coming out of that line!

OK. Not hard to do....

You see, I had blown into the return line that goes back to the gas tank and it
was easy to blow air thru - so in that line there is no restriction.

DoctorBill

A steady flow of fuel would indicate more than adequate fuel supply. If you have good flow from the return the only posibility for reading low fuel pressure would be a problem with the FPR which you say is new, you put a kit in it along time ago. ?? Seams like a contridiction, maybe your post should read not long ago.

On the otherhand if you do in fact have low fuel pressure, there should be no fuel flowing from the return because a good FPR would not allow any fuel to return until the correct pressure has been reached and maintained.

Where is your fuel pump located? Am I understanding that it is in front near the engine? If that is the case you may be sucking air somewhere between the pump and the tank.

Now that makes good sense!

"...if you do in fact have low fuel pressure, there should be no fuel flowing
from the return because a good FPR would not allow any fuel to return until the
correct pressure has been reached and maintained.

Yes - if I installed the FPR Membrane and inside valve properly, and if the Fuel
Pressure is truly 20-25 PSI, then I should see no fuel coming out of that
hose!

You have not heard about Geo Metro Fuel Pumps, my man!

The brilliant designer placed them inside of the Fuel Tank where it is a
major operation to change them! You have to remove the Fuel Tank and open
it up and replace it, then put the tank back in the car...
I know, I know - to cool the pump with the gasoline....

Like Liquid Sodium to cool nuclear reactors! Why not Mercury or Gallium?
Why one of the most reactive metals known?

I truly hope that when those 'Fuel Pump in the tank' designers (had to be a
committee) die and go to Hell, that Satan makes them take out Metro Tanks
and replace the Fuel Pumps for all of eternity! With the wrong tools! Ha !

Well, I have 100 labs to grade and 50 quizzes before Monday morning....Arg!

DoctorBill

In the fuel tank is where I would expect to find a fuel pump. There are few exceptions when fuel pumps are not at the bottom of the fuel tank. Fuel pump being inside the tank means you can not suck air. Everything is pressurized from the pump to the FPR. Sometimes there is an access cover. Removing fuel tanks is not as difficult as it might first seam. Many jobs are as difficult as I made them.

Actually does it make even more sense if there were both a steady flow of fuel from the return and the correct fuel pressure? You are looking for correct pressure and plenty of volume.

Here is a picture of a new pick-up coil. It does have the little blade. Still maybe too difficult to see inside the car. The Picture would allow a better guess than nothing at all.

http://info.rockauto.com/SMP/SMPDetail2.html?LX755.jpg

OK...let's analyse this......

I placed a pressure gauge at the "Fuel In" point on the Throttle Body.

I got 20-25 PSI pressure every time I started the engine. No higher.
25 PSI when the Key is turned...drops to 18 - 20 PSI while it runs.
Then the engine dies if I don't pump the pedal.

That was with the engine running, so the Fuel Pump Relay would not have
turned it off.

Conclusion - the Fuel Pump is worn out.

Decision - must change the Fuel Pump.

Do we agree?

Now comes the Hard Part - do I do it myself (Arg!) or pay $140 + taxes to
have it done at a shop? (double Arg!)

I have the new Fuel Pump and Filter (about $220 total) on hand (Schucks)

Some say is is not difficult, others say it is a bastard... who is right?

I am 63, it is getting cold out there, Damn!

Just how hard is it to drop the tank?

I wonder of late if this damned car hasn't become an obsession with me?

Am I guilding a Sow's Ear....?

DoctorBill

tank is not hard to drop. has 4 or 5 bolts around outer rim of tank that hold it in place. hardest part is removing the hoses and putting them back on and you lower and raise tank. siphon as much gas out of the tank as you can before starting. once you get the filler hose off you can usually get a little more out of it. a good floor jack is a must. there are a couple hoses going to the fuel filter on drivers side to remove, you also have to pull up bottom of rear seat to unplug wiring to tank and push grommet through floor. i find that if i give the hoses and fittings they slide over a good spray of penetraing oil or some sort of lube they go on a lot easier. if your laying on back while doing this you will get gas on yourself so if you are alergic to it or it burns you don't try it

Your fuel pump still pumps. You can use the fuel pump to completely empty the tank while your drinking coffee. Far lessor men than yourself have replaced fuel pumps and lived to write about it. Be careful when you push the new strainer onto the new pump. Don't use the palm of your hand. Many strainers have plastic inside the net that if broken will make tiny slivers that will suck up into the new pump in no time. Push on the part that presses onto the pump with your fingers. Removing a fuel tank with fuel sloshing back and forth is a bit more tricky. You will find that removing an empty tank is far less difficult than you have heard some people say.

It sounds as if the low fuel pressure may have caused the lean condition that burned the valves. Interesting set of symptoms.

Does anyone know of a sensor and guage that can be perminantly installed in the car to monitor this seemingly important function?

Lean condition will increase combustion temp creating more favorable conditions to burn valves. EGR not working results in higher combustion temp.

The O2 sensor would have sent info to the computer that would have been determined as out of range lean, and set a code with CEL.

There are so many aftermarket Air/Fuel ratio monitors. Click and take a look.

The fuel pressure gauge should not show low pressure, fluctuate, or drop off so quickly. There has to be a leak at the FPR or the check valve in the fuel pump.

Checking the return fuel flow as Crvett69 suggested would answer that question.

If those conditions are eliminated by changing the fuel pump, then obviosly the problem would be the check valve in the pump.

You want a Fuel Pressure Gauge ?

Small propeller driven airplanes have Fuel Pressure gauges in them!

My Jeep Cherokee has an electric Oil Pressure gauge that goes up to 60 PSI.

Why couldn't you make some small threaded water pipe "Tee" doohikie with a
nipple in the center, capped with a tapped hole in the cap, hose fittings at
both ends.

Screw the Oil Pressure Gauge into the threaded cap, connect the fuel lines
"in line" ahead of the Throttle Body somewhere.

Run the gauge wires into the Dashboard and have a working Fuel Pressure
Gauge that would tell you what pressure you are running.

Wouldn't cost more than the price of a used Oil Pressure Sending Unit, the gauge from
the Dashboard and some short pipe fittlings. What does a 1/2 inch "Tee" fitting cost?

Or buy one that goes into a Piper Cub (some airplane gauge). Big Bucks?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I guess its time to go outside, put the rear end up on Jack Stands and drain
the gas tank....fun stuff. I guess I can let the front end down now...
I should be done up there....Knock on wood.

Maybe I'll let the old pump do the draining for me - one last hurrah.

I heard that the Fuel Pump cover plate can often be a real bastard to get off.
The screws are usually rusted in... hope that's not the case for me!

I guess I will have at it....save $150.

Learn something, get sore again and cut the crap out of my fingers....

My hands don't look like a College Professor, more like a grease monkey.

DoctorBill

Here begins the story of the Fuel Pump Caper!

Part of the continuing "Oddysey of the Rings", the story of how a 63 year old
man has developed an Obsessive\Compulsive desire to ruin his back, hands,
and disposition.....and drink as many bottles of Beer as he can without falling
into a stupor!

Here I am examining the Butt End of my '93 Geo Metro. Has anyone ever had
a Metro take a dump on him doing this?

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7023/finbillundercarkm7.jpg

I decided to take the Left back tire off to better spread its cheeks and then
to add some Jack Stands so it doesn't drop down on my head unannounced.

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/2484/finonjackstands1jj5.jpg

Here is a photo of the Fuel Filter area

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9571/finfuelfilter1oa1.jpg

and the tank itself

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/233/fintank1nj0.jpg

I took out the back seat to find the "Panel Cover" and found only this

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/2125/finunderseatpanel1tj3.jpg

Is that the panel covering the Fuel Pump access port?

No screws - looks like it was glued on - never touched.

Do I have to RIP it off !?

Good news, though! I found 43 ¢ under the seat! Some broken window glass.
Now I wonder what did that!? Has it been in an accident?

Now I have to drain the fuel - about 5 gallons I suppose...fun!

DoctorBill

Doc, did you check the fuel return flow?

there is no panel under the back seat to remove to get acess to the fuel pump. if there was you wouldn't have to drop the tank. the reason to remove the back seat is to unplug the wires you see there and push the rubber grommet through the floor. the panel you have to remove is the one on top of tank but you can't get to it till tank is out. what your calling panel is some sound deadening material thats glued to the metal

I guess I misunderstood what someone said a while back about a panel!

I thought there was a panel - started ripping up that sound deadener...was
obvious then. Took out the trunk cover, thought it was behind the seat back.
Nope. Saw the wires going in on the left and went back and reread
Chilton again. OK. Mis-read it before.

Saw what I thought that I should see. I do that a lot.....

I disconnected the two leads and shoved them thru the hole.
Was the single lead for the Pump and the double lead for the Fuel Gauge?

OK....I have the Fuel Filter disconnected at the bottom and something shoved
up the rubber hose to plug it. Same on the Filter itself.

Does the Fuel from the tank go into the top or bottom of the filter?

How the Hell do you siphon the tank? I cannot get any hose down the filler
tube to siphon - is there an AntiSiphon Spring down there?

How do I get the gas out? Major holdup. Getting a cold snap today!

I cannot, for the life of me, pull the Fuel Pump Relay out. Won't budge!
So I can't get the pump to empty the tank now.

Starting to get pissed at this whole endeavor. The gasoline tubes are all
jammed into a small space beside the tank where no-one's hands can fit.

All the bolts and Nuts are corroded and covered with dirt - won't turn.
I'll have to drench them with Liquid Wrench and let them set a while.

I guess you put a floor jack (I have one) under the tank with a board and take
the Bolts out and lower it - yes? Bet its a Mother to put back.....

If I can just get the gas out and my temper under control....I hate autodesigners!

DoctorBill

PS - No, I did not check the Fuel Return flow. Since the pressure on the Fuel Tank
side of the Fuel Line (the "In" line) was 20-25 PSI, the Pump has to be bad.
The FPR was replaced, so it shouldn't even let fuel return since the pressure is
below nominal (33 PSI).

Been trying to drain the Fuel Tank via the 'Fuel Out' line that goes into the
bottom of the Fuel Filter....I blow air into the Fuel Return line up at the
Throttle Body - get some gas to go out, but mostly bubbles - won't start to siphon.

Look at this Chilton Diagram of the Fuel Filter and tubes...Lord!
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8070/finffchilton1mj2.jpg

What is that tube (indicated) for ?

I may have to take this thing out with fuel in it (about 3-4 gallons).

I smell like I took a bath in gasoline!

DoctorBill

That hose allows the tank to breath as it is being filled so that it doesn't burp fuel back out the filler tube. The tank can be filled faster that way.

Dr Bill, after all the effort you have made, it might be time to put the back tires back on, remove the jack stands, and drive that puppy to your mechanic you trust and have them do a computer diagnostic to see what is wrong. In my experience with fuel pumps going out, is when they go out, they go out. Car won't even start. So I am the skeptical one about the fuel pump being the problem. For around $50, they should be able to tell you what is wrong.

i told you that you would get covered with gas, i end up that way almost every time i pull a fuel tank. even got it up my nose one time, thats not recomended. if you can't get hose down filler neck pull off the big hose where it goes into tank on rear drivers side of tank (filler hose) has to come off anyway and you can slip the syphon hose in that way. now that you have unplugged the wires, jumping across the fuel pump relay isn't going to work. you can take the tank out with gas in it but when you tip it to get it out most of it will pour out on you and the ground, its a good way to kill weeds but hard on the grass

PS - No, I did not check the Fuel Return flow. Since the pressure on the Fuel Tank side of the Fuel Line (the "In" line) was 20-25 PSI, the Pump has to be bad.
The FPR was replaced, so it shouldn't even let fuel return since the pressure is
below nominal (33 PSI).

Well it's a little late now anyway. But at the same time it would have been easy to do and interesting to see how the fuel return was affected. If there was fuel return it could mean that the FPR was defective and hence easier to fix. It's just one more way to eliminate all the causes before you got involved with the fuel pump and knowing the way things are made nowadays it's a possibility. You may have replaced the FPR and did it correctly but then what if the FPR itself had a defect in it, a pinhole leak or something along those lines? Someone before said that fuel pumps tend to fail completely rather than operate at reduced pressure and the test would have eliminated that possibility which still exists unfortunately..

Thanks for the advice on the piper cub. I never flew one of those big monsters. I was spoiled by the fuel pressure and flow meters on the little Boeings I flew. Perhaps I can get the panel out of my old airbus.

Let's see. Fuel all over the place and a discussion about not needing the fuel relay and jumpering the fuel pump. For some reason I am starting to see a very quick reversal of that cold snap.

I do like your signature line on your posts. How true.

Looks like I'll have to remove the big fill tube and siphon off from there!

Nice to have an "Anti-Siphon" spring...I guess one doesn't pull out tanks very
often....

Now's the time for me to change out all the little rubber Fuel tubes by the Fuel
Filter, also!

Hey - am I going to find a rubber Gasket on the Fuel Tank Access Plate?
Do I need to hit Schucks again for that?

Will I find rust and crap in there - how do you clean a gas tank's insides?

Whacked my head twice yesterday on the Brake Drum getting up and
down trying to remove the gasoline from the tank....ouch! Hard drum! Soft Head...

Some of you think I didn't diagnose this Fuel Pressure enough before doing a
Fuel Pumpectomy.... I was convinced last Fall by DieInterim (a fellow kicked
out by the admin guys) that Fuel Pumps usually go TU around 150,000 miles.

Low pressure...seemed like the thing to do. Bought one - so fingered it was
time to use it.

As to going to some shop and having them run a diagnosis - would they get
any more info than I am from my CEL - which blinks 22 & 23 ...?

I have an inate distrust of AutoMotive Shops....at $90 / hour labor and a
desire to change out any and all the parts w/o regard to my financial situation,
I hate that drooling and hand wringing as they think about how big my Bill is
going to be and how much they will make off of me....

At some places, I have actually seen that grin and greedy look in their eyes!

I am Cheap! I got that way by never having had a lot of disposable income.

Were I to win the 3 million dollar Lottery, do you really think I would be driving
a 16 year old Jeep Cherokee and a 14 year old Geo Metro....!?

No! I'd be driving a 1960 Corvette or a 1956 Triumph TR3 or even a 1928 Duesenberg...
with a driver and a fridge in the back. Plus good cigars!

And nobody would be saying, "Yuck Dad! Those stink!"

So, all yous guys who don't check prices, who buy whatever you want, whenever
you want it....bite me!

Then...those guys wouldn't be here reading this forum about fixing old Geo Metros, would they?

DoctorBill

DOC;
Perhaps you could take the output line from the fuel tank to the fuel filter and place it in a bucket (you could tee in another section if you need to make it longer for ease of bucket placement). Then take your air compressor line and using a rag to create a seal put it in the gas tank filler neck; trigger the air hose and let air pressure push the gas out of the fuel tank; shouldn't take much pressure and it certainly would be preferable to the gas bath that so many of us have taken. Alternatively if that doesn't work insert a long piece of small diameter gas line down the filler neck putting the end into a bucket then follow the above described procedure to pressurize the tank and push out much of the fuel. I haven't pulled a tank on a Metro but have done several other vehicles and it is MUCH easier without a tank full of fuel sloshing about. Make sure your air compressor is a ways away so there is no possibility of a spark from the compressors engine providing a source of ignition. I've seriously considered cutting an access panel in the floor and covering it with a piece of old mudflap or some other flexible material so if I ever had to go back and change a pump again it could be done from the top but I haven't taken the time to do so.

When fuel tanks are rusted, corroded, or otherwise dirty on the insde, radiator shops wash them in their hot tank and use a liquid called sloshing compound that coats the inside and seals any crap into the resin coating. Modern gasoline often has alcohol blended in to reduce emissions. Alcohol absorbs any moisture and keeps fuel tanks dry. Fuel injection fuel systems constantly circulate gasoline through the fuel filter and return fuel to the tank while an engine is running. I think you will find your tank sparkling shiney clean.

Repair shops go all week long, week after week without writing a ticket for only $50! If you notice coins left on their ground, regardless of your financial situation, think twice before bending over to pick one up.

I guess you will find out if Schuck's has an o-ring for the cover that is the top of the fuel gauge sender. If the o-ring is in good condition and hasn't swelled oversize, I would reuse it.

What can I expect the Gas Tank to weigh? Can't be too much....

BTW - thought that re.Imageshack.us had been down....was me!

I had changed my Browser Preferences (SeaMonkey 1.0.5) to view image from
originating site only....

The images on my posts come from somewhere else (Imageshack).

Changed back to view all images....works OK now.

Anybody - how do you you get the Fuel Pump Relay out? Mine won't budge.

Am afraid I'll break it if I reef on it!

DoctorBill

The tank, pump, and sender probably weigh just under 10lbs. Gasoline weighs 6lbs per gallon.

unbolt the unit fuel pump relay is attached to, turn it over as much as you can, you will see the prongs holding it in from underneath then you can use a screwdriver to push these in while removing relay

I stink like I took a bath in Gasoline!

Got under the car and disconnected all the tubes by the Fuel Filter.
That is not all that easy and is where you can get Gasoline all over yourself....

I couldn't get at the top connection to the Fuel Filter, so I cut the hose with a
box cutter blade.

No wonder - the guy who installed it last Fall did this:
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9606/finfilterhosegoofinessov4.jpg

He got the clamp on somehow with the screw facing inward! Christ!

After all those hoses were disconnected, I unscrewed the three bolts holding
the Filler Cap in place (Gas Filler Cap). That allowed me to lower it.

I loosened the Big Clamps holding the large rubber connecting pipe that
connects the filling tube to the tank. Had to cut some plastic straps holding
several tubes together. Loosened the clamps on the smaller rubber breather
tube also.

That allowed me to pull the Filler Pipe and Breather tube back away from the
tank. I got the Filler tube assembly off and the rubber connecting tube.

BIG Surprise! No wonder I couldn't get a siphon tube down thru the filler
cap opening....I found an old chunk of very hard Garden Hose inside it!

It has been there God Knows how long ! Hard as steel pipe from age...
http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/1970/finfillerhose1ux3.jpg

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4896/finfillerhose3yx8.jpg

After that was off, I just siphoned about 4 Gallons of gasoline out of the tank
with a tube I had ready...
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/8749/finsiphoninghs7.jpg

I then placed my floor jack under the tank with a piece of plywood between
and proceeded to take out four bolts holding the tank to the body.

Came out lickety Split! Now sweat. It is not at all heavy - maybe 10 - 15 lbs.

The Fuel Tank was filthy however... The Beer Bottle is just for size reference...

I was very careful not to spill any of the Beer! You don't want to get it on you!

It is quite toxic....makes you do silly things, like misplace your tools......

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5440/findirtytank1ok3.jpg

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/5586/findirtytank2vk2.jpg

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7159/findirtytank3pp1.jpg

I decided to clean it off with my garden hose and a high pressure nozzle I have
from Harbor-Freight. I placed a baggie over the filling port with several rubber
bands and hosed it off.

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2492/finwashedtankhv6.jpg

Here is the access port I will get into tomorrow.
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1876/finpumpacessportrt2.jpg

Someone please identify Tubes number 1, 2, and 3 for me...
I should also change that small yellow filter (or 1-way valve) clamped to hose #1 - yes?!

This is what the big empty space underneath the car looks like.
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/276/tubestankoutot9.jpg

Even though I am sore all over from getting up and down a couple hundred
times today, I feel like I accomplished something....

Now, I'm going to sit down, drink a nice big mug of Ceylon Tea and write the Key to my
Chemistry Exam the Students are taking tomorrow.

THEY do the work for once! I'm pooped!

DoctorBill

tube 2 is the fuel pressure line to filter and engine, line 3 is the fuel return line, line 1 goes to charcoal canister in front and is supposed to keep tank from releasing fumes to air. told you it would be easy to siphon once you got filler hose off and that you would end up taking a bath in gas from the fuel filter. thats also why i say change it while tank is out since its such a pain to get to with tank in the car

The Fuel Filter was changed last Fall, just before "the problem" started.

It has perhaps 100 miles on it...no reason to put a new one in!
However, tomorrow I will buy 3 feet of Fuel Tubing and replace all of that!

What do you think of that hunk of Garden Hose in the filler pipe ?!
Someone must have tried siphoning and it got stuck, so he cut it off and left
it in the pipe. On end has a slant cut on it. In a hurry?

Lucky the hose wasn't soluble in gasoline - what a mess that would have made in
the pump and/or the Injector!

That THING in line #3 is what...? A one-way valve then?

I will find an "O-Ring" under that access plate? A Big bugger!

I took a bath from the Fuel Filter, but for a reason completely unrelated to
taking it out... You won't believe this!

I made very, very sure that the Fuel Filter didn't drain on me!

So what do I do? I blow in the output end to expel dribbling gasoline.

If you look at the Filter, if one tube is pointing toward your mouth, the other
end is pointing toward your right rib cage....

Needless to say, as I am blowing hard, I feel my chest getting very cold!

So I'm an Idiot - I admit it!

Half a cup of gasoline all over my shirt and chest. Nice.

I am just glad that no one was around to witness my humiliation...

If I had done that with another guy around, he'd probably have died laughing.

Makes one humble.

DoctorBill

if you don't get some gas on you pulling gas tank your not doing it right. always get a few dribbles from somewhere. thing in line #3 is a small filter to keep pieces of charcoal and stuff getting into tank. getting gas on your chest isn't bad, i was working on a car one time and was going to replace the fuel filter on it, was a ranger and filter was under drivers door, i was on my back and bumped the filter line and it popped off and shot gas up my nose, that was nasty

DOC;
You must have gotten the Boy Scout version of the Metro. You know: Be Prepared. It looks like you were all ready to siphon gas out at a moments notice with your built in siphon tube, too bad it didn't come with instructions so you could have used it to empty the tank.
In spite of or perhaps because of your self proclaimed frugality I'd strongly recommend changing the fuel filter regardless of its age/use. Here's why:
1) You are already down there and have the old filter out.
2) There's no really good way to determine how much crud is in the filter; sure it flows now but is it 10% obstructed, 20%, 40%???
3) Other electric fuel pumps have a bad habit of going south from being overworked: Chevy Suburbans immediately come to mind. It is not uncommon for a new pump to be put in place (in a suburban) but if the fuel filter is not changed they have this alarmingly regular habit of going south in 10-15k miles which of course means one gets to do the job all over again. Seems like really cheap insurance to change the filter and avoid any possibility of this scenario on your Geo.

Also since you are keeping this car for a long time to come why not splice in a piece of replacement fuel line where the fuel filter was originally mounted (to connect the two hard lines) and relocate it (the filter) to the fuel line before the throttle body in the engine compartment. Then you would never have to go under the car to change the fuel filter again....

I will give you another reason to change that filter. The one that is in there was installed just before the problems started. It may have been causative to the problem.

Just got back from Chem Class. Gave my students their first of the three
big Exams. Now I have to grade them. 40 questions - 50 exams.

OK...IdMetro and Mohave....you have convinced me!

I shall buy a new Fuel Filter forthwith. Just called - they've got one - $16....arg!

IdMetro! I do like your idea! I shall put the Fuel Filter up in the Engine
Compartment so I can change it easily....

Now - someone give me some reason(s) not to do so....

I stopped in at Schucks this morning and bought some new Fuel Line.

Lord God! $5 / foot for Fuel Injection Fuel Hose! High Pressure hosing.

The guy said regular Fuel Hose says it is good to only 7 PSI...! If this Metro
pushes it up to 33 PSI, then I should check all my current Fuel Lines to
make sure they are not "plain old vanilla" tubing....

Going out to open up the tank now.

I am contemplating putting several gallons of gas back in it and attaching my
old car battery and my Pressure Gauge just to prove it was not making it up
to 33 PSI....

But I'm Chicken S**t....messing about with sparks and several gallons of gas
is inviting a big weenie roast - mine!

But I'd love to see if it really is bad....guess when it is all reassembled, I'll know.

DoctorBill

not sure its worth the time it would take to run the extra hose and figure out a place it put it, it is a pain but only have to change it every 100k or so. if you do decide to relocate it nothing says you have to use the same filter that is in the back, just find something with same size hoses and use it

True enough that you could use a different filter with the same size hoses but I personally would be sorely tempted to use the official version as that way I could be sure flow/pressure ratings had been met and the "official" version fits in a handy little mounting bracket already on the car that you could just bolt it in to the new location. Not to mention the benefit that I wouldn't have to try to remember what version I installed I could simply get a replacement for the year/model. Probably cost a bit more than a generic but easier to my way of thinking. Besides if you go to the trouble of relocating it where it's readily accessible you'll likelly never have to touch it again. Leaving it under the car would only increase my chances that I'd be back down there in the not too distant future. (Wish I'd thought of relocating it when I replaced mine a few months ago...)

Oh - Am I having Fun now.......

In December, I bought a Bosch Fuel Pump at the same Schucks store I just had
tell me that Platinum Plugs all cost $8 now...Bosch #69407 Made in Japan
$180 plus $22 for the Strainer that attaches to the uptake hole. Found the receipt!
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/7081/finboschfpboxvb4.jpg

Got the Tank Fuel Pump Port open and found something interesting.

Here is a picture of what is inside my tank and the New Bosch Pump that Schucks sold to me last Fall.
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1623/finoldnewfp1er4.jpg

Notice the size difference!

Old Fuel Pump..... - 1.5" Diameter x 2.5" can size
New Fuel Pump.... - 2" diameter x 3.75" can size.

The Bosch Fuel Pump weighs almost as much as that entire assembly in the photo!

Called them, talked to the Lady Manager....She thinks that someone misboxed
the Bosch FP since one she was holding had smaller size and different numbers
on bottom of pump.

So tomorrow I take it back and see. Fun stuff - time wasting stuff.

I found some kind of flaky, metallic looking stuff in the Fuel Tank.
The bottom right chunk is about the diameter of a dime.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6204/finstuff1bw5.jpg

This was all that was in there in a small "Cavity" directly under the Port Opening.
The Fuel Pump and Sender Unit all sit inside this rectangular "Can."
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5118/fininsidetank2mz0.jpg

How does fuel get from outside this "Can" to the inside of it?

I am suspicionizing that this open topped "Canister" inside the tank is to
keep the Fuel Tank Gauge float from bouncing up and down too much.

What is next!?

I will still use the same Filter, but put it up front. Why - built for 33 PSI.

Notice the Fuel Tank Access Port uses a flat Gasket - not an "O-Ring".
See second from top photo above.

DoctorBill

I am on Crvett69's side. The fact that you ask for someone to give you a reason is reason enough. There may be a reason that the filter is located where it is that folks like ourselves are unaware of. Seems like more trouble to relocate the fuel filter than to replace it. How many more times is it likely to be replaced? Whoever told you regular fuel line is only good to 7psi was useing a figuer of speech or pulling your leg. A soda straw will hold more than 7psi. The working pressure of the hose you have now is generally 200psi. All the fuel pressure hoses should be multi-purpose hose rather than regular fuel line. Is that flakey stuff part of the garden hose?

the can in the bottom of the tank is actually to keep the fuel pump imersed in fuel to keep it cool. there are some small seams around bottom of that that let fuel in and out slowly as level in center lowers. i have no idea what the metal pieces are from unless they came off inside of filler tube or some kid was dropping stuff in the tank

Answers to the following:

Crvett69 - I picked the tank up and looked way back inside and yes,
there is one half inch hole at the very bottom inside of the "rectangular
Canister" to allow fuel to enter...that is all!

I wonder if the flaky, metallic looking stuff is from when the Tank was made -
almost looks like Galvinizing Slag, but isn't zinc - like "paint"...(?)

JustSayGo - I will just cut the Fuel In line in the engine compartment and place
the filter 'In Line'....should work fine.

Other car Fuel Filters are in the engine compartment - even plastic ones!

The Fuel Tubing - yah, sure. Even a soda straw will hold 7 PSI.

But will it do that for 5 years in 120° F to -10°F soaked in Gasoline at 33 PSI
continuously?

Maybe "regular" Fuel hose would work - but given the alternative - split open
Fuel Hose with 33 PSI gasoline spewing out inside the Engine Compartment
or under the car makes me pause....

I wouldn't like to be a "crispy critter" 'cause I was too frugal....

A DoctorBill homily......"Frugal is Fine, But Too Frugal is Foolish!" FIFBTFIF

Anyhoo - I tried to empty the gas tank by holding it up so the filling port was
down. No luck!

They have the filling Port Pipe extended way into the tank, so the fuel just sloshes
around that pipe and won't drain!

Had to get my old Turkey Baster I use to pick up dirty oil from the Oil Filter
Port and "suck" it out...is empty now and sitting in my Garage on a box.

My hands itch something fierce! I stink of Gasoline. This is the perfect time to have a beer!

DoctorBill

PS - GM wants $440 for the Fuel Pump! WTF goes on in the "minds" of the
Managers at the Major Automotive Corporations...if anything besides what
Wine they'll order at the next Luncheon...Used to work for such 'people.'

The baffle keeps fuel around the pump when you stop, go, or go around a corner and the fuel sloshes to one side of the tank, so that the pump stays cool and doesn't run out of fuel when the fuel level is low. Three weeks ago I bought only two feet of 3/8" multi purpose hose to connect the trans cooler lines on a Honda and paid $2 per foot from the industrial hose supply. Maybe you have a hose supply house close enough to you to be worth while.

Actually when I made the soda straw comparison I was not suggesting that it would compare as far as service nor am I saying regular fuel line is good enough, but regular fuel line will hold far more than 7psi for a long time over a wide range of temperature. The better quality type hose you have is no doubt called multi-purpose hose, as in used for air, fuel, oil cooler lines, or anything else(not brake fluid).

Certainly there are fuel filters in some engine compartments. I am not sure that any plastic filters are used after any fuel pump. Plastic fuel filters are on cars with far lower fuel pressure and usually have fuel drawn through them rather than pushed under pressure. You will have two more fuel connections in the engine compartment with the remote possibility that one of them might leak one day. Fuel filters in the engine compartments of the other cars use flare fittings that are clamped in place with threads on a nut. Who hasn't seen a plastic fuel filters between a fuel pump and a carburator? That practice is not a step in the direction of increasing safety or reducing risk. That re-engineering practice does not make it through a safety inspection. It is not a matter of your car being subjected to inspection but a matter of you choosing to reduce or increase risk. Manufactures would expect that if they make enough cars with rubber fuel lines clamped to fuel filters in the engine compartment, some will leak and some of those that leak will cause a fire, so they choose to put safety first. If any manufacture can save one nickle on each car during assembly, they will choose to save millions of nickles on millions of cars, unless there are good reasons which outweigh the savings. Just something to think about. Not something I think is critical or will ever cause a problem.

You know, JustSayGo, we do have a hose supply place here in Spokane.

When you mentioned that, it reminded me of my infamous BaseBall Cap that I
wear to embarrass my wife and kids....Ha!

Found it at a local Garage Sale for 25¢ and grabbed as fast as my pinkies could
get ahold of it! Priceless! Absolutely priceless!

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/6559/finhosehat2fy9.jpg
Red faced from years of Sun & Motorcycling. Classic "Red Neck" - (rosacea)
http://www.internationalrosaceafoundation.org/

Love to wear it....

If I wore it to my classes thought, I'd probably get fired. Undignified.

No sense of humor at college!

BTW - I was just relating what the Schucks guy read off the Fuel Line Spindle
that the hose was wound up on....Good to 7 PSI. (?)

DoctorBill

I'll give up and admit to being wrong. Good for 7psi is a good way to think of ordinary fuel hose. It is crap and fortunatly it does hold up under some serios application missuse. Nice hat! You make it look great! And thanks for showing me the tricks with the font location. Another simple thing I did not know and still would not know today.

Looks like your zip code could be 30 mi from Spokane. Have you checked google earth to see if your Geo Metro is jacked up in the air? I suspect it may be visible.

What will Google due when all try to log onto its server at once and search the spokane area for a blue Metro????

Hey Dr. Bill
To avoid grading a stack of lab reports, I spent a good long time reading all 20 pages of this saga and I've got to say it is truly captivating! I'm cheering for you Dr. Bill! Keep at it, because it will be so satisfying once you finally get to the bottom of these problems.

Don't Give Up!

Ren

PS: I have a 96 Metro 1.0 5spd that has become an obsession for me - and I also teach chemistry at the college level ( at the birthplace of Microscale Organic Chemistry). Weird, huh?

Do you folks remember that old 60's song -
"Why Does This Always Happen to Me!?" By WEIRD AL YANKOVIC?

Get this.....

I bought a new Fuel Filter - $16 Schucks.
The interesting part - my old filter RATTLES!" Something is loose inside it!

Now I'm wondering if the filter didn't plug up with something and ruin the Fuel Pump!
It is an unpainted "no-name" the Mechanic installed. Made In China on the side.

The new one I just bought is Black (Fram) - made in Israel....G 6677 Oh well.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2592/newfuelfilteryj5.jpg

Next thing.....

Schuck's kept coming up with that same Big, Heavy Fuel Filter on their computer.

I just mentioned that the car was assembled in CANADA..... BINGO!

The guy says, "Ah HA!" and looks for the same pump on later models. Bingo!

The Fuel Pump in my '93 Canadian Geo Metro Hatchback is in fact a '95 Metro
Fuel Pump in America....
Bosch Fuel Pump No. 69496..........Master Fuel Pump Screen No. FS152

If you look closely on the Bosch Fuel Pump, it has DENSO made in Japan on the top!
http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/1842/finproperfuelpumpou3.jpg


You know, those Canadians....Just a big empty, pine tree conjested, get lost
in the woods kind of place....it's aboot time they spoke English! Ahya?

Just kidding all you Canooks reading this....! After all, Pamela Anderson is Canadian!

So all is well so far!

The Fuel Pump and its reqd filter are both different in Canadian built cars,
so keep that in mind guys!
When you go to the parts places, if yours was made in Canada, tell them that!
Saves everyone grief....and returning wrong parts.

The smaller Bosch Fuel Pump (1/4 the mass) cost $200 vs the $180 for the BIGGER BOSCH Pump....go figure.

I paid $120 for the Head to be rebuilt! The little Fuel Pump cost $200...!

Had to pay $18 more to exchange for the "Proppah" Fuel Pump and filter.

BTW - everybody in my family now has the Hersey Squirts and I feel like tossing
my cookies, too. Some virus got into all of us. Nice. Hope I don't toss it all
over this keyboard.

Can you folks get this virus over the wires?

DoctorBIll

Walbro is the last word when it comes to fuel pump quality. Walbro is far better quality than AC Delco, Bosch, w/e. There is a Walbro fuel pump listed for 1995 Geo Metro. You may be a little more sick when you search and find how many $$$ you can save.... for even more trouble returning the pump to Schuck's and waiting for the Walbro to arrive if you can't locate a Walbro kit locally.

Why didn't you tell me this several days or more ago!?

It is a done deal now..... Looks like maybe $120 if the "Kit" includes the screen.

If not, then probably $140.

I'd have saved $60 - $80 minus shipping costs ($45 - $65 savings total).

F**k it! I don't want to dick around anymore!

I want this bugger running! Tired of this...has become an obsession!

If it doesn't run after all this, I will put slugs into my shotgun and blow it away!
Set it on fire. Sell it to Gypsies. Leave it open downtown in the worst district!
Run it thru the crusher at the junkyard. Say Politically Incorrect things to it.

DoctorBill

Because they do not list one for a 93. The strainer is included for $114. Just roll a window down and let it have kittens.

Here are two photos of the old and new Fuel Pumps.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9979/finbothpumpsiz1.jpg

Both pumps are DENSO.

They are quite close to the same configuration. I think I can fit the new one
into the holder.

The only thing slightly different is the end rubber plate between the
Pump and the Clamp.

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/1947/finpumpends2dp2.jpg

The old pump has the number "5" on the bottom end and the new pump has
"W" and "6" on the bottom end.

Notice the "smile" on the old one (bad lighting when I took the picture) and
on the new one. Also the new pump has a center "Pin" while the old one
has no "pin."

The rubber fits over the smile on the old pump, but won't fit over the smile
on the new one.

I could get it to fit with a small metal (Brass) plate and some RTV Silicone...
I could also file a hole for the "Pin."

Also, the screen on the new one does not fit nearly as tightly as the old one
fit on the old pump.

The DENSO web site shows the screen and it looks like the one I got repackaged
by MASTERS.
http://www.densoaftermarket.com/parts_fuel_pumps.shtml

Guess I'll have a go at using it.

DoctorBill