That's the end of my '93 Metro.....

This is a new thread from my last one "Reassembling the TBI..."

Today I did a compression test on my 3 cyl Metro Hatchback.
158,000 miles on the engine (bought the car used last summer) - who knows
if the original engine or what!

http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/8157/rainyweather1ec.jpg

Anyway:

Took out the plugs - saw spark going to all but #3. Engine cold (won't run)

.........W/O Gas pedal down:

#1 - 45-50 psi #2 - 65 psi #3 - 95 psi

.........with Gas pedal to floor:

#1 - 60 psi #2 - 95 psi #3 - 155 psi

So.....I guess that's it! Dead meat. Burned out valve on #1 and #2 going bad.

I will not spend another $400 for a used engine and $500 to install it for a car
worth at most $100 (if that w/o a running engine).

I just recently saw that someone here did his own valves (cost in U$S?) and
rings (pistons still in the engine no less!), but I am 63 and not all that
knowledgable about such things.....Merde!

I guess thats' it! I have about $2,000 into this thing, but I can't justify
another $1,000 just to save on gas.....

Damn.

What does it cost to get the valves fixed? Can one do it one's self? Special tools involved?
Then if the rings are gone....double Merde!

Any suggestions? Buy some used Ford Fiesta? Maybe buy a bicycle....

DoctorBill

Doc,

My 91 was in similar fashion when I bought it. I pulled the head and dropped it off at NAPA and they completely refurbished it for about $150. I also did the rings and rod bearings just for peace of mind, but they were in pretty good shape. With this forum and a factory service manual it was a good experience.
BTW I hope you don't mind but I used one of your engine pics in an earlier post to help describe some wires I'm missing. Thanks Dave

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/7025/metrosideview5nb.jpg

Your words give me some peace of mind....

$150 you say....How long ago was that? Ohio area. I'm in Spokane, WA.
When I was just a kid, my parents lived in Columbus, Ohio.
My Dad & Mom were from Indianapolis, Indiana

Also - could you describe the experience of pulling the Head off and putting it
back on.

Never did that on anything....

When I did my front wheel bearings on this little fart, it was way more than I
had thought it would be.

This Metro seems in good shape. I have about $250 into the front wheel
bearings, $120 into the rear brakes, new battery, new fuel pump ($190), fixed
up the interior....Snow tires & wheels, new summer tires

I hate to just dump it.

Do the bolts that hold on the head come out easily or did they put that
damned threadlock in those like they do the TBI components?

If I do this, it will be a major project for my old butt to take on - but...if you
don't use it, you lose it.

DoctorBill

NAPA rebuilt the head about a year ago. After draining the radiator and removing the distributor, plug wires, timing belt, intake and exhaust, etc., I removed the head using a breaker bar and a 6 point #14 deep socket. The head bolts are really tight and a 12 point socket will probably round them off. (They recommend using new head bolts for reinstallation.) You'll need a torque wrench to follow the torque sequence for reinstallation. If you think you want to proceed I can give you more detail. Dave

I think I could do this......(Lord God, am I out of my mind?!)

What gives me nightmares is bolts breaking off inside something.

When I tried to take off the Fuel Pressure Regulator from the Throttle Body,
two of the damned bolts broke off. Luckily I got one from a local Pull-n-Save.

Then, the next worse nightmare is threads stripping in some unreplaceable part.

Breaker bar, huh? Jesus, seems you are lucky the bolt didn't break down inside
the block...

I have learned to use an air-hammer like they use on wheel lug nuts.
The vibration gets tight nuts & bolts moving.

Anyway - yes. As much information as you might be willing to relate to us.

From what I have seen and had said to me, most everyone who visits this
Forum benefits from other folk's experiences. Digital pictures along with the
explanations makes them 1,000x better.

The Chilton Manual is OK, but the pictures are non too good and the damned
explanations are miserable at best "remove the head... assembly is the reverse of removal.." Ha!

I will probably work up enough nerve to have a go at this bugger-all
vehicle. What Have I got to lose - if I bugger it up, then it still will be worth
what is is now - Jack Squat.

I just need to get it done at minimal cost (can hardly pay my bills now!) and
before the weather goes to Hell here in NorthEastern Washington State.

AND - before gasoline gets so high that I can't afford to go to work
just to pay for the next tank of it. My Jeep costs $55 to fill the tank!

That is esentially once per week. So Gas - (just for MY car) is about $220
per month....Then my wife and son each have vehicles!

So - to reiterate my answer - YES - with pictures if you can!

DoctorBill

PS - Are new head bolts $5 each? The gaskets cost a lot, also....no?

I pulled the head on my 92 geo metro about a year ago. Looks just like yours by the way. Pulling the exhaust, timing belt, and distributor are fairly simple. The intake can be a chore however trying to get to all the bolts. It can be done. Took me about 3 hours to get the head off. I used a breaker bar as well and removed the head bolts in the reverse order of the tightening sequence. Had a machine shop resurface the head and put all new valves in. Cost me about $250 dollars with gasket set. I definitely think its worth trying. I did not replace the rings which I wish I would have as mine uses about a quart of oil a week. I don't understand how to replace the rings an bearings without pulling the entire motor, but others on the forum say it can be done.

if you decide to scrap the car don't call a junkyard, i will buy it from you and drop another motor in

I have a 94 that runs perfectly Im thinking of selling for about $700 for what it matters.

ATM only real problem is broken hood hinge. brake pads are begginning to squeal. clutch is even brand new less than about 2k miles on it. pictures in my cardomain.

Hey Bill, don't dump it! The engine head is actually a fairly painless fix. The worst part is taking off the timing belt and the hoses/wires from the head. The headbolts will NOT snap off inside the block. They are extremely hard, and are always oily, so they won't rust. It would take over 150lb-ft of torque to snap those bad boys in half. New headbolts are cheap too. Always replace them when you take the head off.
http://www.teamswift.net/3tech/

Talk to him about getting your head rebuilt. He can toss in some stainless valves(no more burnt valves) and do a few other fun things with it to make it feel like a much better metro, for about the price of having it rebuilt at a shop. It'll be well worth it, and your car will feel like a completely different animal :grinyes: . He even makes a fuel economy head for it.

I've personally done a headgasket on a 1.0 in about 3 hours. You're a smart guy, shouldn't take ya but a good saturday afternoon to finish it up.

I called two places here in Spokane this morning. NAPA's shop will do it for less
than $200 with new valves included. A Head Service Shop also quoted
the same price....

So I made the decision and am already out in my driveway removing stuff.
Once I decide on something, I move on it quickly. Obsessive I guess!

So - I am at the point of having the timing belt cover and tensioner and belt
itself off.

Do I actually need to remove the intake manifold out of the engine compartment?

Do I need to remove the Timing Belt Upper pulley (the big toothed one)?

Can I take the head in with the valve cover still on? I'd rather not screw
around with it.

The "3-Tech performance" site is too expensive for my budget!
Stainless valves are $50 for the 3-cylinder engine! Can I get those here in
Spokane for the locals to use?

What do you advise for the Locals to replace....besides the exhaust valves?

"Dear Lord, PLEASE don't let me F**k this up!" John Glenn's prayer before liftoff....

I will be out in the hot sun cussing and swearing (it helps me blow off steam!)
as I remove the head...

DoctorBill

you have to take the valve cover off to get to the head bolts under it. you can leave intake on and pull it once you get head off engine. big gear can stay on head

OK. I will leave the intake manifold alone until the head is off....
Only a zillion tubes and wires connected to it....

I am being more intelligent about this process now.... I am placing all the
bolts, nuts, screws, etc from each part into zip-lock sandwich bags and
labelling each one. No more cans of screws, nuts and bolts laying here and
there and me confused as to which goes where!
Never again,"Where the Hell are all those screws!" Panic, anger, swearing, looking everywhere....

I am wondering about the Distributor now. The Chilton Manual is useless as
regards removing it. "Remove the hold down bolt."
WTF is that? No photo or drawing.....What pekker heads!

Here is a photo. The sun is beating down on the car now, so I am taking a
break to ask these questions. See photo below.

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/3205/distributor1rr3.jpg

Which bolts do I take out to remove the Distributor? Set #1 (2)
or set #3 (2)....?

Do I need to worry about marking it's rotor position since I am having the Head
worked on...?

The next one you answered - but let's check....

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4472/timingpulley1br7.jpg

Do I need to remove this Pulley?

What is best way to drain the Coolant? Any taps at the bottom?

DoctorBill

PS - If I can get 150,000 miles on regular valves, I would be an old, old man at my rate of driving
before I would rack up another 150,000 miles. And the car would be worn out by then.....
Stainless Steel valves should have been put in when the car was made !!!!

Those ziplock bags and a sharpee will save your !@# not to mention your sanity.. Murphys law always intervenes when you think you will complete the project this afternoon or today and what actually happens is you get back next week or month. I've also taken to writing on masking tape and sticking it to whatever wire/connector i remove so i will have some idea of where it should go later. Once complete and running well I can always tear off the tape.
The distributor should come out by removing the #2 set of screws. What I have done in the past is set everything to TDC (Top Dead Center) then I note where the rotor should be (your picture will work just fine) and begin the disassembly. The distributor on Metros has a flat blade at the bottom so you only can get it into position two ways: 1-correctly or 2-totally bassackwards (which is of course the way it will go if you don't take note of where the rotor is pointing at TDC).
Coolant wise I just pull the bottom radiator hose and drain it into a bucket. Congrats on your tenacity! While I haven't used one the rebuilt heads I see on ebay look attractively priced.
I don't recall if the timing belt pully has to come off to remove the head. I think it might to allow access to the backer plate that the timing cover bolts to. To remove it you could stick a screwdriver through it to lock it into position or wrap an old timing belt around it like a strap wrench to strop it from turning.

there are 2 of the #2 bolts with the torx heads on them that you have to remove. the distributor is keyed so it will only go in one way but it can also stay on the head till you remove it from car, the cam gear does not have to come off. you can also leave the exhaust manifold on the head if you want and take it off afterwards but its easy to pull when its on the car. i know you don't want to hear this but if you redo the head you should also replace rings at the same time or it will probably smoke and use oil

Great! I was going to remove the #1 set of bolts! I actually did, but nothing
would move, so I put them back on.... Whew!

I will leave the Distributor on until the head is off.

If I remove the nuts holding the Intake manifold, will it just pop off or need
some force to get it off?

Can I just set the Intake Manifold back on whatever is below it?

I will remove the Exhaust Manifold while the Head it is in the car.
Same questions as above - does it separate easily or need force?

OK - so you think I should do the rings also. The vehicle did not use much
oil before this.... Why would it do so when I'm done with the Head?

If I wait, what difference does it make? If I get at the rings by dropping
the pan and taking the pistons out from below, why not wait until I
really need rings?

I am more paranoid than masochistic....

What did you think of my comment on Stainless Steel Valves?
I am tempted since I almost always conduct massive overkill on all projects !
(Lucky I don't run the war in Iraq...).

DoctorBill

you can take the intake off and just leave it in car. once you have it all unbolted it should just come off but there are some nuts underneath that aren't the easiest to get to. exhaust will come off of head once all bolts and nuts are off. pistons have to come out the top of the engine so head has to be off. once you have head redone the valves seal a lot tighter and rings seem to start letting oil by. you can just do head but don't be supprised if it starts using oil or smoking

I know that now is the best time to replace the rings....

But - I am in way over my head right now.......let alone taking on the rings!

From what I know, I would have to hone the inside of the cylinder walls.

I have to remove the piston rod bearing on the bottom to free up the piston.
Then I could screw up those bearings when I reassemble them. The slightest dirt will burn them out.

Any one of those two things alone I could screw up beyond anyone's recognition!
What if the cylinders are not round? I could make slightly leaky cylinder(s) totally unusable!

If I screw up, bye bye engine.....

DoctorBill

Doc,
The head is not that bad a job. This is the 2nd one I've done. BTW, I'm 56. I got a decent used one from eBay for $95 including shipping. It had just been rebuilt before the car got scrapped. The head gasket kit with head bolts was about another $60. I put it all together last Friday (8-25-06) and it runs great. Started right up as soon as I got the new battery in it. The pastor at our church knows absolutely nothing about engines and mechanics. I told him that when I changed this head, he was going to help. He CLAIMED he was looking forward to it He did all the work following the directions I gave him. It took him about two hours to remove the old head and he managed to keep his religion intact! A couple of the intake and exhaust manifold bolts gave him some problems, but we overcame them together. So just relax and do the job one step at a time. There's no rush. Before you know it you'll be done!

So anyway... here's the written directions:

REPLACING HEAD ON 1.0 METRO ENGINE

Remove spark plugs and unhook battery

Loosen, but don’t remove, 4 bolts on water pump pulley. 10 mm combination wrench

Loosen, but don’t remove, 4 bolts on crank. 10 mm deep well ¼” drive socket
Use 17 mm socket to turn crank as needed

Loosen the lower alternator bolt. 12mm combination wrench

Loosen the upper alternator bolt. 12mm combination wrench
Pull the alternator forward and remove the belt

Remove the 4 water pump pulley bolts and remove the pulley.

Remove the 4 crank pulley bolts and remove the pulley.

Remove the 5 bolts and 1 nut from the timing belt cover 10mm combination wrench
and remove the cover. or socket

Set #1 cylinder to TDC, check timing marks. Loosen tensioner and remove timing belt.

Remove 2 bolts from distributor and pull out distributor. 12mm socket

Remove radiator hose from head.

Remove bolts and nuts from exhaust manifold. Pull it forward and let it hang. 12mm

Remove nuts and bolts from intake manifold and pull it back from the head. 12mm Socket ¼” drive

Remove valve cover acorn nuts. 10mm combination or socket

You will have to unscrew the valve cover rubber grommets since they have been squeezed around the threads. An awl and mallet worked for me to get each one started

Gradually loosen head bolts about a quarter turn on each one until pressure is relieved from all 8 bolts. Follow the sequence in the Hanes manual. 14mm socket

Remove the head


By the way, I always enjoy your posts. The pictures are very informative. I also enjoy the display of our product on all your posts. I am a Millwright for General Dynamics in Lima, OH. The plant that builds the M1A1 Abrams Tank.

Hey Frets14! Thanks for the information! I'm sure it will help others also...
Yes - the Abrams Tank is something else! Paladin could have used one to
flush out the bad guys. Couldn't pay me enough to be in one though....
Not with today's anti-tank missiles.....

Well - By God, I dood it!

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7452/anidiotbill3mt1.jpg

I got the damned thing off! You were right guys - no sweat! All the sweat was in my head.

I took off the Exhaust Manifold and here is a pic of the compartment with the Gasket laid out.
Below that is the gasket's other side. Looked OK.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7812/exhaustmanifoldoffng3.jpg

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/779/emgasketside2cy0.jpg

Then came the Intake Manifold. Not as hard as I thought. For once I had
the right tools. Came off swimmingly.... No pics.

Then I removed the water hoses and electrical stuff. I took off the four
cap nuts on the valve cover. Wouldn't come off until I realized that there
were rubber grommets that had to be pried off. Do I need new ones?

Then came the eight head bolts. I used a cheater pipe and loosened them
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 as in the Chilton Manual. The screamed as I loosened them!
Scared the Hell out of me - thought they might break! Didn't though...

Off came the head! Pictures of each cylinder valve set below.

Number one is burned badly and cracked..... Jesus!
Number 1 - 60 psi cylinder pressure test.
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9430/cyl1valvests2.jpg

Number 2 - 95 psi cylinder pressure test.
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/8236/cyl2valvesqb3.jpg

Number 3 - 155 psi cylinder pressure test.
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6602/cyl3valveskw6.jpg

Wow - the valve on Cylinder One is cracked on the bottom right and off round on the left middle.

These last photos were taken in the dark by flash. I finished just as it got too dark to see well.

Tomorrow I'll take it into the Head Service people. Not NAPA. Why?
That's all they do - probably more reliable.....

I'm tired! Think I'll go to bed.......

DoctorBill

Now that I have the head off, can someone tell me about changing the rings
without removing the block?

The insides of the cylinders were smeeoooth as a baby's butt!
No scoring that I could see, But I suppose that's normal.

What do I do, remove the oil pan, unscrew the piston rod bearing covers and push the pistons up out of the top?

Is it difficult to lap the cylinder walls? Do you rent something to do that?

Can you booger it up easily (I am good at that!) ?

BTW - what will all the gaskets cost me just for the head job?

What does a new set of Head Bolts cost?

I forgot to set the cylinders to TDC piston #1 before I took off the head!
Will it be difficult to reset the timing after the head Job and Piston Ring Job...?
Am worried about that....!

DoctorBill

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/2857/anidiotbill2sk1.jpg
BTW - Any Firefox, Mozilla or SeaMonkey users, try this! You'll be happy....!
http://adblock.mozdev.org/

DOCTORBILL;
While I haven't done my Metro, I've changed rings in other vehicles and recommend you get a ring expander to help do the job (it's just a fancy pair of pliers that help you spread out the rings so they will fit down over the piston, then when you relax them they go down into the grooves on the piston). Otherwise rings tend to be a bit brittle and if you don't apply pressure evenly to them they could break. Your description/sequence of how to change the rings looks good. You will need to get a cylinder hone, NAPA should have a selection. Honing or lapping the cylinder walls is not hard, you lubricate the walls with honing oil and move the hone up and down at a modest pace so that you get a crosshatched pattern on the cylinder walls which will allow the new rings to mate to the cylinder. With the crankshaft in the engine I would recommend rotating it to the bottom of its stroke for each cylinder so you will be less like to bang into the journals with the hone while you work on the individual cylinders. No big deal regarding not having the engine at TDC until you go to reassemble it and then you can simply spin the crank until the #1 cylinder comes to the top of it's stroke and go from there. You will want to pay attention to the end gap on the rings (that is the amount of space between the two cut surfaces on the ring when it is in place in the cylinder) you measure it with a feeler gauge and compare that against the spec, if you don't have enough then you adjust it by removing a small amount of material at a time until you get the correct spacing. Also some rings are designed to work in a certain orientation so check to make sure you install them according to the manufacturers directions. I would also recommend using some plastigauge to check your rod bearing tolerance when you install your new bearings and finally get yourself some motor assembly lube (historically I've use a product called lubriplate) and slather all the metal to metal surfaces with it when you do your final assembly this will help with your projects longevity as when you first start it up it will essentially be dry sinc eyou won't have had any oil circulating through the engine. http://www.napaonline.com/masterpages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=430&CatId=10&SubCatId=3 will give you an idea of what parts go for. Sometimes there are certain parts where the inexpensive one performs as well as the pricier one and sometimes it's well worth the difference to get the more expensive one and not have to replace it again. Hopefully others who have been down this path will chime in with their experiences regarding head gaskets/bolts etc. I see head gaskets are listed in a range of ~$60-100 but I have no idea what the differences might be. You are on the right track and can do this job just keep plugging away at it!

Thanks Idmetro..... nice explanation!

I can probably buy a ring expander and a ring compressor at Harbor Freight
Tools for a reasonable price.

The Chilton manual (p 3-34) says to use a "Ball Type" hone on the cylinder walls.
I will, most likely, have to use whatever I can rent - what is available....

You mention the following, "...your rod bearing tolerance when you install your new bearings and ...."

Are you saying I should replace the rod bearings on the piston rod ends that
attach to the crank shaft?! Not sure I'm using the right jargon....

I hope not....That really makes me nervous..bearings. Cost also.

You see, this job has gone from maybe $200 on up and up and up......

If all the Gaskets for this bugger are now going to cost more than the head
job will cost, then rings, then rod bearings, then what else...!?

I am now wondering what all this is going to total when I'm done...

This is one reason I was reluctant to start - these damn vehicles cost an arm
and a leg by the time you are finished - And I am doing the labor!

And it may all be for nothing if I screw it up....

DoctorBill

partsdinosaur.com (http://www.partsdinosaur.com):smokin: He has awesome prices on his stuff. Be careful when honing. Try to keep the honing at 45-60 degrees in angle. If it's too shallow, it'll tear up the new rings pretty quick. If I were you, I'd get a rubber mallet and a small wood block. Makes removing/installing the pistons a TON easier. While you're at it, have about .010" shaved off the bottom of the head. It'll increase your compression to a still regular gas level, but give you a few extra hp, and help the fuel economy a bit.

Glad the explanation was of use. I'm not necessarily saying you have to replace the rod bearings but I am advocating using the plastigauge to check them (I'd hate to have you reassemble a worn out one that might fail and make your work for naught). The plastigauge is just a little piece of plastic that you put on the crankshaft, place the bearing cap over the top, torque it to spec then remove the bearing cap and measure the width of the squished plastic to make sure your tolerance is within spec, if so remove the plastic replace the cap, retorque and away you go. If it turns out to be out of spec then you can make the decision to replace the bearing or not. A ring expander, ring compressor and possibly even a hone from harbor freight should work fine. I've used both ball type hones and ones with a set of stones (typically three) to do cylinder honing and had gotten good results from both. My rule of thumb is if I'm only going to use it once or twice then a tool from harbor freight fits the bill nicely, if it's a tool I'm going to use with more frequency than that then I pony up the dollars and buy a better grade because I know from painful experience that I'll recoup the money spent in time saved. My father-in-law ran by the rule that you should figure out what tool you need for the job and then buy the next bigger one as the job ALWAYS expanded once you got started; seems to have held true and when I actually keep it in mind I get a lot less frustrated. When you remove/replace/reuse the rod bearing caps/bearings and the pistons I would keep track of their orientation (which cylinder, which direction) so they will mate back up with minimal disturbance when you reassemble. I can certainly sympathize with the additional costs of the project over what was initially envisioned. Possibly it will make it somewhat easier to live with if you remind yourself that you are making the vehicle far more reliable than it was and you are essentially paying yourself (even if the payback period has now been extended). By taking your time you dramatically lower the risk of as you say "screwing it up" I too have learned my share of hard lessons and this is one place where it doesn't pay to hurry.

i am afraid by the time you buy all the gaskets and rings and bearings and tools your going to have a lot more in it than you planned. i found out that its easier for me to replace the engine with a jdm and cheaper than to rebuild the motor in the car. thats why i have so many spare parts. i have about 5 core engines in the shop at the moment. most just had 1 dead cyl from a burned valve and i replaced them with jdm engine. i rebuilt a few when i first started on metros and they worked ok. it just took to long and cost about the same amount

Doc,
I know that a true Metro mechanic would advocate rebuilding the entire engine. I've heard it said that by just rebuilding the head the extra compression will cause oil to be forced past the rings. I installed a rebuilt head over a year ago. did nothing to the rings and couldn't be more satisfied with the performance. It is, after all, still a Metro. The head I replaced last weekend was done the same way. I swapped out the head, put it together and it purrs like a kitten. It certainly is your choice, but if you're anxious to get the car back on the road... I'd suggest just changing the head and start bypassing gas stations. Just my opinion and I don't claim to be an expert!

The complete head gasket set with the bolts can usually be found on eBay for under $60. That's where I got mine. It was delivered in about 3 days.

Don't read this if you are impatient - I relate my experiences today!

I took the head into the "Cylinder Head Service" company in Spokane.

No one was at the counter, so I sat the head on the counter and just then a
grizzled shop fellow walked up and from maybe 20 feet away said,
"Ah Ha! A Geo Metro Head !" He recognized it from 20 feet away!

He was filthy to the bone, had a long scraggily beard, was toothless and skinny as a dried
up corpse. The Boss was out.. This skin and thinny "mountain man" proceeded
to tell me what needs to be done......

Said I had better do the rings as even a small piece of carbon lodged in the
old rings could come out catch under the Exhaust Valve and stop it from fully closing.
Then it would burn up in a week. My cylinder head and the top of all my pistons
have huge, thick, hard flakes of carbon covering them and flaking off easily.
I figured the way he talked, he knew more about engines than I know about
Chemistry….probably has the equivalent of a PhD in engines.
Then he told me about putting the pistons back in…see farther below.

$140 labor, $9.10 per Exhaust Valve (Intake Valves are not changed out), and then
the cost of the Gaskets. Hopefully nothing else wrong….
The Boss Guy showed up and said he'd get me the "Complete Gasket and seal Set"
for $48 ! That set is $98 at Schucks!
He uses part of the set and I get the Head, Exhaust and Intake Gaskets in the deal!

Nice! Saved $50 bucks right out of the chute.

Almost everyone I talk to (or where ever I read), says to definitely do the rings.

So - the Majority Rules!

Now - Motion Auto and Schucks both show 2 or 3 ring sets. "Which one?"
they ask me..... Crap! I don't know!

Any way to tell which set I need short of pulling the pistons out to see?
Big difference in price! $50 versus $80....

Then - Standard or oversized? Merde! Duuuh……

So here I am with my head up my Butt not knowing what to say to them....

Also - I found a ring spreader at Motion for $5 (whew!). But they
want $30 for a compressor that Harbor-Freight sells for $10.

Then the Honing tool….I don't know if to rent or buy. Chilton says to use the "Ball Type."
So I guess I'll go with that - if I can find one.

Back to the grizzled, dirty, toothless shop guy. He said that when I tap the pistons
back into the cylinder after installing the new rings, that I should go cut small
pieces of heater hose and cut them lengthwise and fit them over the bearing
surface of the place the piston rod bearings go.

That way, when I tap the pistons back down, the piston rod can't accidentally strike
the bearing surface and nick it (Disastrous!).

I love talking to people who know their butts from a hole in the ground.
You pick up fabulous information!

So, tomorrow the Head will be done. $250 I suspect. (???)

Can anyone tell me how many rings this beast will have on each piston?

Should I replace the eight Head Bolts? The grizzled guy said why bother?

DoctorBill

PS - I'd bet that the "mountain Man" shop guy is no older than 40!
Bet he has seen everything and done everything... One used up
looking fellow! He seemed eager to talk...the boss was out to lunch! lol

replace the bolts, they are a torque to stretch bolt and if even 1 fails you will be pulling it all back apart again. standard metro will have 3 rings, 2 compression rings and a oil ring. xfi only has 2 rings. unless you have engine bored you don't need oversize rings. check each cyl wall about 1/4" from top to check for a ridge. if there is one there you need to get a ridge reamer to remove it or have it bored out. ring spreader is nice to have but not absolutly needed, ring compressor is. might ask local parts stores, some rent tools. you will also need a decent quality torque wrench for the head bolts and rodswhen you put it together you want is clean and you can get it inside, especially crank surface. to clean the carbon out of the piston tops and ring grooves break one of the rings (used) in half and use it to clean. after cleaning grooves blow them out with air to make sure they are clean. also pay attention to ring gap spacing when installing pistons. it should say on package or in your book

Thank you for the Ring Information! I will buy the Ring Compressor at Harbor-Freight.

I went to Schuck's Web Site for the rings....

Rings - Standard '93 Geo Metro 3 cylinder engine

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1171/ringchoice1ed8.jpg

here are the ones I am supposing I should buy, yes?

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2258/ringchoice2ob1.jpg

$50.

If I count correctly from the picture there, that's 15 rings... What!?

What is a limited Lifetime Warranty anyway?

Like when you get a heart transplant and the surgeon says, "We guarantee the heart until you die..."

NAPA's price - same order number and picture! $65.49

Yowie! Thanks NAPA....

Also this.....could I have bought the entire head - new for $226 at Schucks?

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/DoctorBill_SCC/Metro%20Head%20Rebuild/SchucksHeadRep.jpg

But then I wouldn't be getting all the gaskets also...

DoctorBill

More than likely, yours is a 3 ring per piston set. Don't mind the pictures, they're just a generic picture the site puts up.
http://importperformanceparts.net/
Ring set there is $45, and i've had nothing but good luck with them. I've used their parts on al of my rebuilds. 3tech sells non-stretching reusable headbolts for $25 also! For $3 more a piece, you coulda got his stainless exhaust valves ;).
If you've never installed rings, you're gonna have fun learning :). Soak the pistons in a pan of de-carb solution overnight before attempting to clean them. After an overnight soaking, you can clean them with a stiff bristle brush(not metal). Also, take a toothpick to clean out the oil holes behind the oil ring(looks like a mesh ring held in by 2 thin rings). Those oil passages are very important. Especially to an engine with new rings. By no means ever get the piston wet with water though. Might get water trapped in the wrist pin. And that'll rust in a BIG hurry. Clean the de-carb off with brake cleaner, and spray it down with wd-40 or some other type of oil coating while they sit.
And 1 tip putting in the oil ring... Be patient.. It's a very annoying one if you've never done it before. It's got a "mesh" type ring, held in by 2 very thin rings. One that goes around the bottom, and one around the top of it. Make sure the gap on that ring is at least 90* from the gap on the "mesh" like ring also.

Holy Cow, my friend!

My God! What you've just told me is incredible information!

I was thinking about soaking the heads in hot detergent solution to clean them!
Then wire brushing with a drill brush the top of the cylinders to get all the carbon off....

Damn, I am so glad you decided to explain this!
I am sure a lot of guys will be helped by this message.

Back to the content....

I wanted to get this job done ASAP. That is my mental disorder. I decide on
something and then feel compelled to get it done NOW!
So I did not want to wait on any Mail Order and I have this big dislike of
paying Shipping Charges which kills all savings on the price!


Why stainless valves if 'normal' ones last 150,000 miles.
At 15,000 miles per year, I would need 10 years to get back to where I am.
I'll be 73.5 by then and (hopefully still driving) the car will be a rust bucket.

What is decarb - a chlorinated hydrocarbon oil based product?

I will keep water away from everything!

May I ask why no wire brushes? Do scratches on the top of the piston cause
some later problem?

I WD-40 everything! Was wondering if it would make a good lubricant for
getting together with my spouse....lol

I don't follow about the "Mesh" type ring business....
Does this mean that each ring is in fact three rings, thin-thick-thin?
Any web site links where this is explained - with pictures?

Also, the gaps must be offset by 90 degrees, yes?
You would think that 180 degrees would be best...(?)
Don't these rings rotate as the engine runs?! Or do they stay tight and where they were placed?

How does one know the compression rings from the oil rings when you get
the rings from the store? Labelled in a sleeve? Do they look the same?

And this is probably obvious to you, but you put the bottom rings on FIRST going up...no?

Why does one "hone" the cylinder walls? Honing cannot make them round if
they have worn 'out of round.' Is this to remove a glaze so the new ones
grind a new "fit?"

I know from working at an Oil Company back when I was between my Bachelor's and Master's
in Chemistry that about 5% of motor oil is Sulfur (that's why oil is yellow) which is put
into oil so that Iron Sulfide forms on all exposed surfaces and acts as a lubricant and skin to
protect the metal (Iron) surfaces from wear...

You say be patient! lol Ha! Patience is not one of my virtues.
"Be patient. All things come to those who wait." Death, Taxes, Car problems. etc.....

As you can tell, I am a car engine virgin.... Never been into one.

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/2857/anidiotbill2sk1.jpg

DoctorBill

the oil ring it made up of 3 pieces, thats why they show 15 rings. you have 2 thin rings for top and bottom and a spacer ring to hold them apart. the compression rings will have a bevel or dot on them so you know what side goes up. box will say on that. for spacing check your book or look on box for recomended gap location. if you use a brush for top of pistons use a brass one gentyl. i usually use a old ring on its side to scrape off th worst stuff and then end to clean the ring grooves, you have to make sure you get out any build up thats behind the old ring or you can break new one installing it. also check piston over well for any cracks in the skirt. the bead hone will break the glaze on the cyl walls so new rings break in. the correct way is to have a 45 degree cross hatch pattern. you move drill up and down as it turns. bead hone will not make it round, they have a bar home that will do same job but its mostly used for new rebored holes, if use on stock cyls can sometimes make taper worse in cyl. did you check to see if you had any ridge at top of cyl? after you home cyl walls make sure you wash them out very well and clean crank off as well, to assemble coat rings with oil before putting rings compressor on. once ring compressor is on put rod end of bearing in rod and lube well with motor oil or break in lube. notch or dot on piston goes to belt end of engine. put your hoses on end of rod bolts and using wood end of hammer to tap piston into bore. if it doesn't go in easily take it out and make sure none of the rings are sticking out from bottom of compressor. you have to hold it down as you tap the piston in. also make sure you do not mix up rod caps, they are machined to fit only 1 rod, also observe what way the cap was on and take it off the same way, if they are not numbered mark the top of each piston as you remove it so you know what hole it goes back into

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/1711/pistonringsq5.jpg
That's the "mesh" type one. The oil control ring. It's a 3 piece set, made up of one serpentine ring, and 2 paper thin rings. The 2 compression rings are MUCH thicker. A good ring will have the top and bottom of them labeled. If not, refer to the instructions or diagram that came with them. Also, make sure to install the compression rings in the proper order too(again, should tell you which one is wich in the leaflet that came with the rings).

Don't ever clean engine parts with a wire brush, because it can strip any type of coating that was on the parts off. It can also put scratches in a surface that will collect soot and carbon like you wouldn't believe. It can cause hotspots on the piston, and cause pre-detonation down the road.

As for the WD-40, don't use it to assemble your engine, only to coat parts that will be sitting in the air for a length of time. I personally use lithium grease. You'll most likely spin a bearing usind WD-40 during the first dry start.

Stainless valves won't burn like regular valves do. If you get carbon buildup on them, they still won't burn or warp. It's a good piece of preventative maintenence to make sure you won't have to do that again.

Yes, the piston ring gaps should be 180* offset from each other
Ring 1 should be 90* offset from the wrist pin
Ring 2 should be 180* from that
The oil rings should be in-line with the wrist pin, 180* facing away from each other, and the serpentine like one should be lined up with either one of the compression rings.

The reason for honing is the same reason we machine flywheels and brake rotors. They evenly put small scratches in the surface so the rings can make their own wear patterns. You can't really see it, but your old rings wore their own wear pattern into the cylinder walls. So honing them is basically like shaking an etch-a-sketch, so they have a new surface to wear into. The rings won't move inside the cylinder if they're broken in properly. The ring end-gaps wear a very very small groove into the cylinder wall and ride on that. They are in so tight too, that they have no reason to spin.

de-carb solution is used for soaking carburetors to clean them. It will break up the carbon and soot on the piston, so you can pretty much wipe them clean, or spray them down with brake cleaner or WD-40.

But anyways, get yourself some assembly lube! You'll kill it with WD. Assembly lube is easier to work with too :iceslolan

Oh, here's a good link with diagrams on how to install the rings too. It's for a subaru, but should give you the right idea.
http://www.jepistons.com/pdf/piston_instrc4032.pdf

if you have a chiltons or haynes haynes book it will also show you ring spacing.the one i have on metros shows a different spacing than the subaru one. you never want to clean side of piston or a bearing surface with a wire brush, it can remove coating or mar surface like he said. i have used a brass brush on top for stubborn deposits that don't want to come off after soaking, just use it gently and don't scratch piston. a stiff fiber brush and some spray carb cleaner as you clean seems to work well also and less chance of damage

DOCTORBILL;
The carb cleaning solution can be purchased in a gallon can with strainer bucket inside it so you can just put the part in, close the lid and come back later. The newer stuff (probably all you can buy now) has a lot less odor, quite a change from using carbon tetrachloride way back when.

I picked up the rebuilt Metro Head today - got pics of it. $220 plus I get All of the gaskets for everything!

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/DoctorBill_SCC/Metro%20Head%20Rebuild/Rebuilthead-Side-1xxx.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/DoctorBill_SCC/Metro%20Head%20Rebuild/Rebuilthead-Side-2xxx.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/DoctorBill_SCC/Metro%20Head%20Rebuild/Rebuilthead-Topxxx.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/DoctorBill_SCC/Metro%20Head%20Rebuild/Rebuilthead-Bottomxxx.jpg

And the old valves...

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/DoctorBill_SCC/Metro%20Head%20Rebuild/Oldvalves.jpg

So tiny - they look like something from a lawn mower engine!

The Thermostat is a gonner - the rubber in it is all cracked. Need a new one.......

I see that Schuck's sells 180 degree and 192 degree thermostats. I think I'll get the 180 degree job.

Running at a lower temp will lower efficiency, but make the engine last longer....

DoctorBill

PS -
On the back side of the Head is a small hole where the exhaust flows thru the
Intake Manifold and is for the EGR Valve.

That tube in my Intake Manifold is full of carbon.

I am going to attempt to "dig it out" with a soft copper wire and a shop vac.

Why does that form and can it be prevented?

DoctorBill

When I got the Head Rebuild back, all the various connections were off and in a bag.

How to Put them back is obvious all except for the thermostat.

The manual says "Install the thermostat with the spring down."

Lord God - it sets in the Head sideways. No drawing or picture....

Does the spring side face toward the head or out into the hose cap that screws over it?
Does it make any difference?

DoctorBill

Hi Doc,
Great play by play and pictures. The spring expands and contracts with the temp. of the coolent. Place the spring tward the engine.
Great job,