1994 3000GTSL, check engine light problem

I recently started getting a check engine light on my 3000GT SL, 1994 model. The car has 133k miles. I took it to the dealership who are asking for $1300 to replace MAF Sensor, Camshaft sensor and crank sensor.

I cant completely trust those guys - any ideas on whether the price quote is too high. Any suggestions on what to do? For something like this, can a local mechanic be trusted to do this job?

Thanks

Navin

definately dont trust them... you could probably replace those yourself... but first pull the codes (read the Faq as to how) this will tell you what the car is really thinking so that you dont have to beleive the dealer...

Also welcome to automotive forums

:chair: $1,300!!!!:eek2: WOW.just for taking off 1 bolt of the cam sensor, poping open the airfilter box and losing up that wire thing to pull out the sensor( disconnect the sensor). and the crank sensor which i never done but it should be easy. WOW. *just remember how you had the cam sensor because there is a little groove in it*

Well, if they pulled the code did you see what it was?

A) NEVER EVER trust a dealership to change your oil, let alone diagnose a problem. Even if there was a remote possibility that their diagnosis was correct, which I doubt, they charge you $75 an hour for labor, and will try and tell you that each of those jobs is a multi-hour task. Namely so they can take a paid cigarette break every 15 minutes and waste an hour reading through the 3000gt service manual, becuase they probably have never seen one before in their lives.

B) We can't help unless we know what codes were pulled from the ECU, so you either need to get the code numbers from teh dealership who pulled them, or you can try Autozone for free (but they usually only do it on 96+ cars), or you can pull them yourself. But one way or another, we need those codes to help you.

You could try telling us the symptoms, but ultimately the codes are best.

they charge you $75 an hour for labor

no they dont. thats what a averge shop cost. a dealership goes for $100+
Trust me, im trying to be a auto tech


Namely so they can take a paid cigarette break every 15 minutes and waste an hour reading through the 3000gt service manual, becuase they probably have never seen one before in their lives


Also most dealerships pay by flatrate time. This means that they get paid for the job they do. if there are no cars in the shop, the tech makes no money.

^^Damn, no wonder! Oh, and about the charge of a dealership...I did see their hourly charge posted on a window: $120/hour to mess up your engine!!!!!!!!

no they dont. thats what a averge shop cost. a dealership goes for $100+
Trust me, im trying to be a auto tech



Also most dealerships pay by flatrate time. This means that they get paid for the job they do. if there are no cars in the shop, the tech makes no money.


I use to work at a dealership. I know. I'm saying that all the pro-rated jobs are absolutely ridiculous. A money with a socket wrench could complete them in the time given. All jobs are typically rounded up as well. And I'm not talking about what htey pay the techs (because generally the techs get shafted too) but what htey charge, basically what shows up on the bill. That is for doing a specific job. What they can also do is charge you by the hour, additionally to 'trouble-shoot'. At this point the tech clocks in on the job, and they charge (and of course round up) additionally for each extra hour he has to spend on the job) This has to get approved by the service manager, but generally, they have no problems with it.

Like the 42 seconds it takes them to plug in a obd2 scanner and pull the codes, they charge $75 for.

I would trust Micheal Jackson with a 6 year old before I trust a dealer with my 3/S.

:eek:

might as well just go ahead and sticky that one :lol:

Thankyou all for your reply.

The dealership gave me an invoice of their estimate work which says, "Tech has found 3 codes and in need of 3 sensors MAF sensor, camshaft sensor and crank sensor". I called another dealership which told me they would charge me only $950 :). Of this, $300 would labor and the rest parts, MAF sensor being the most expensive, $516.

I went to a website that lets you order used parts. I have got quotes for $70 for the MAF sensor. I think I might go ahead get that and try to replace it myself if it is straight forward. Do we think replacing other sensors would be straightforward too? Is there a manual available somewhere that describes how to do this.

Again, thanks everyone.

Navin

Did you read what i posted, it tells you how to take of the cam sensor:twak:
+you can get a maf cheaper, like for 40 bucks

OK man I think you may have missed my point in the midst of all my rambling.
When dealerships or any mechanic all of a sudden give you a list of sensors that need to be replaced, generally it is a red flag indicating that they havn't exactly pinpointed a problem. It seems like they just want to replace all 3 to eliminate the most likely sources of the problem.

This in practice I have a problem with, being that I'm cheap and don't like to throw money and parts at a problem until it goes away. I want to figure out hte problem and fix it right the first time.
Now I could easily post up where to get these parts the cheapest and how to swap them yourself. It wouldn't cost you $900, or $600, maybe not even $300. But the point is, it maybe that you only need to replace 1 part not 3. However we cannot help you with the problem, because
A) we still havn't heard any symptoms and
B) '3' codes doesn't help much either, we need to know which 3 codes...if it were me, and I had just had to pay for somebody to pull 3 codes, I want to know which 3 they pulled, so I could at least doublecheck and keep the mechanic honest.

It's up to you, and yes replacing the MAS is extremely straight forward and I could give you directions to all of it, all I'm saying is you maybe wasting extra time and money, and to be perfectly honest, even then you might not nail the problem (depending on this dealership tech's diagnosis). See what I'm getting at?

Hello Igovert500,

I understand what you are saying and completely agree with your thought process. I called the dealership which did the diagnosis and they did not have codes on their computer but will pull up hard copy Monday and let me know.

Here are the symptoms: the car started giving check engine light and then one day I had trouble starting it. The next day it just wont start. This was at end of last year and I let it sit for few months. Last month I put some dry gas and recharded batteries and it started. Check engine light came back on soon. Sometimes I have to try a couple of times to start the car but other times it starts right away. Driving wise - I think I cannot tell any difference from before the problems. I dont hear any sound of feel any difference as a driver.

Also, after the dealership looked at it, the light has been off, but I am worried it might come back on again. Let me know if you recommend pulling out the MAF sensor to see if any dust buildup is the cause. I have also not changed the air filter for quite some time now.

By the way Autozone had said they cannot pull up code for OBD1 which is why I took it to dealer in the first place. Do you know which kind of place besides the dealer would be able to look the code from OBD1?

Thanks

If that's the case, it could simply be your starter.

By the way Autozone had said they cannot pull up code for OBD1 which is why I took it to dealer in the first place. Do you know which kind of place besides the dealer would be able to look the code from OBD1?

Thanks

only the dealership will have OBD I computers. if you have a OBD I datalogger (cheaper, more efficient than dealer computers), you can pull codes from an OBD I car. there is also another method invloving a paper clip and an analog voltmeter. that method is described here http://www.stealth316.com/2-diagcodes91-93.htm

A few thoughts. First of all you are correct, Autozone can't pull anything but obdII codes. However your's is a 94, so it's a hybrid ecu, neither obd1 or obd2, but htat isn't important right now.


ok just so we are completely clear, I'm saying all of this, with the understanding that when you say your car wont start, it means that you can't even get it on for a second. (if you get it started and it stalls immediately, let me know, because that makes a difference) Also you never mentioned the car stalling out on you while you were driving or idling, so I'm assuming that never happened, and the issue is only present at startup. Correct? Also please mention if anyone has done any recent work on your car where they would have removed the cams or fooled with your timing belt.

Also, I'm assuming these are all related, however, it wouldn't be a bad idea to A) clean your battery terminals and tighten the cables B) get your battery, alternator, and starter tested by autozone for free

First off I'd almost definantly eliminate the MAS as the problem, simply because the ECU doesn't use the MAS while cranking. It only starts paying attention to MAS readings, once the car has started. So if your car isn't stalling, and it holds a steady idle once it does start, then I wouldn't even worry about the MAS for now. You could try unplugging the MAS plug, seen here:
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/74532old_vr4_engine-med.jpg
And seeing if the car runs better, but I'm guessing it wont.

Next, in 91 and 92 the camshaft angle sensor and the crankshaft angle sensor were on in the same nice easy to reach housing. In 93 they split up and moved and became unadjustable. I would think if the Crankshaft sensor were shot, you would not get the car to run normally ever, if even start. I mean I would think you're firing order would get screwed up and you would be misfiring if you even got it started, if you did get it started, I think it would stall almost immediately.

With multiple sensor Check Engine Light codes. What this kinda sounds like is bad capicators in teh ECU. However this is generally only an issue with 91-93 cars. If you check out hte FAQ I did a write up about it. You can pull the ECU and inspect for damage. It is pretty simple and only takes about 15 minutes. It is kind of a long shot, but at least it would rule out the possibility. So that is one thing to try.

What really really seems to be interesting to me is that this is intermittent. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But if I understood you correctly, you said it works fine when it does work. This really leads me to believe it is an intermittent wiring issue.

Are you by any chance getting a click click click click noise (not the starter, but inside teh cabin)? The is a common starter relay problem our cars get, but that still wouldn't explain teh check engine lights.

I really think it's electrical, but I wish I knew what codes were stored in teh ECU. I'll try and do some research. If you can try and find out exactly what codes were stored, that would be good.

OK, just a quick few additional thoughts. Don't buy anything from the dealership just yet. Drive the car through the weekend,
1) let us know if the CEL comes back on, if it doesn't, see how many miles you went, if you make it over 100 miles and it doesn't come back on, that is a good sign.
2) Listen when you have trouble starting it, for a clicking coming from under the dash inside the car.
3) clean the cables and battery terminals with a wire brush (obviously be careful not to short the battery to the frame or anything)
4) see if you can get the battery and starter checked at autozone.

Remember everytime you disconnect the battery, you are basically reseting the ECU, so it has to relearn everything all over again, so this will prolong the CELs coming back on, if they were going to. Realize this doesn't mean the problem is fixed, so don't keep disconnecting it to keep the CEL from coming on.