HELP!!!2002 Taurus SEL "dragging" stalling BADLY!!

Hello All,

I tried to do some reading before posting...trying not to duplicate but, I think like most...I would rather be as sure as possible and make sure all my problems "quirks" are included...so here goes...

I have a 2002 Ford Taurus SEL Automatic....Since a year now...it started doing what I call "dragging" like it didn't want to go forward when the gas pedal was pushed...first thing I did was think Trans so, I took it to a National Trans shop and they told me...nothing wrong with the Trans (wonders!...I figure if they don't hit me for the bucks...then nothing wrong with the Trans!)...so..I kept driving it..sometimes it would seem better..other times...it kept dragging...ok now...(or since) #1...Car would not start one day...nothing..no clicking, no trying to turn over, nothing...towed to Ford Dealer...was told the battery was completely dead...replaced the battery....car running again....pick the car up from Dealer...A/C not working (was working when Dealer got the car for the battery)...Took it back..Dealear said...Temperature (something or other) under the dash near the radio????...Not working...and some hose was not connected so the hot air that was blowing was blowing out through the defrost vents and no where else...So...Dealer fixed that for free....NOW...Car stalling out on stops (at lights, stop signs, etc)...still draggin....worse..(sometimes it seems to be sputtering now a little...before shutting off)....also...seems (may just be in my head) that when the A/C is on..it drags more...wants to shut off more....WHILE DRIVING!...to be fair...it seems like it wants to stop while driving intermittently..with or without the A/C on.

This is really scary ($$$ wise and Safty wise) and...I am very concerned...can someone help with some possible issues?...Thanks in advance for any help

T

PS....There is a light on now also...on the Lower left handside of the steering wheel...yellow...can't tell what it is bit looks kinda like an engine...with a flywheel???...Thanks

Which engine does your Taurus have? Does the car idle smoothly when at a stop, besides it acting like it wants to die? How about during the sluggish acceleration, is it at least smooth, or is it rough?

Do you have a vacuum pump that you can use to check the operation of the EGR valve?

You owner's manual should explain what the yellow light is trying to tell you. If you don't have the owner's manual, you should be able to download one from the Ford website.

-Rod

The light that looks like an engine is telling you there is a problem and it's called a CEL, check engine light. Without going into a lot of detail, go by Advance Auto parts store or a parts store that "pulls codes" for free and they can plug into your cars computer and retrieve the codes that are "stored." Simple process, takes fifteen minutes and the codes should give you a good idea of what component(s) is causing the problem.

Rod...

I honestly have no clue which engine it has...How can I find out?

It does not idle smoothly at a stop....After "sputtering" (Does that have something to do with idle??) it stalls out and shuts completely off


This is a hard one...while accelerating...sometimes it's smooth...sometimes it's rough....at first it was smoother...The best I can describe the ride is...like a pulling/then not pulling...(dragging) feel.

I do not have a vacuum pump to check the EGR valve

I am going to d/l the manual now...Thanks!

Huney...Thank you...I will do this tomorrow (as this is driving me crazy and seems very dangerous..I am always afraid the car is going to stall out while driving and I will get hit)....Also....After I get them, may I please post the codes here for further assistance? Lastly...being that the car was recently in the shop twice...Do I have to ask the store to "clear" something or other?...Again...Thanks folks...this is much appreciated..I am at my wits end with this....

yes we will tell you what to codes mean if you bring them to us, don't trust the auto sport to interpret them for you.

brokenantimatter...Thank you very much...I'll definitely do that tomorrow after I get the codes from a store.

Rod...

After registering my car on MyFord.com I downloaded the book...(Yep Huney that light is definitely the CEL....:) Thanks! and Yikes!)...by the way...does that help with possible causes?

Also Rod...I do now know that I have a 3.0 L Engine (?) and the engine code in my VIN is an "S"....Tell you anything?...If not...can you tell me how to find out which engine I have?

Thanks....T

Duratec engine, i have noticed this problem a lot lately. I blame the parents.

Will your engine die with the over drive off (the little button on the shift knob or the gear right after OD on the dash)?

I am betting this is a vaccum/emission related and just for shits and giggles I am guessing the errors codes are going to be:

System to Lean (Bank 1 and/or Bank 2)
Insuficent EGR Flow or Insuficent EGR Circut Range/Performance.

And if it is I have a pretty good idea what has caused...but I will keep it myself for the moment.

brokenantimatter...I have been googling my butt off...and I think you are right...but..I am going to still get the codes and report back tomorrow...(I am about as pooped as my car sounds lately :()....

I'll let you know!...Thanks a Bunch!

"Do I have to ask the store to "clear" something or other?"
After they pull codes they usually clear them, but if the engine is still malfunctioning the CEL will come on again.
If the CEL is on and you get it fixed and the engine computer is happy it will automatically turn the CEL off in a few days. Whoever pulls codes should give you a print out but be sure and write them down anyway. We have some real pros here so don't fret and they'll get you squared away shortly. :wink:

Need to find a good shop and technician who won't rip you off and sell you parts and do repairs you don't need and while you're in the auto parts store it would be a good idea to ask about a good, honest repair facility.

How many miles are on your Taurus, and when was the last time a tune up was performed? Bad spark plug wires could cause the symptoms you describe, and if they haven't been changed recently, it may be worth replacing them and the spark plugs as part of general maintenance anyway. Same goes for the fuel filter, and you may as well dump a bottle of fuel injector cleaner into the fuel tank for good measure as well.

As mentioned above, a vacuum leak can cause the symptoms you describe, as could a stuck EGR valve, open Intake Manifold Runner Control (IMRC) - but less likely, low fuel pressure, dirty fuel injectors, low compression, faulty MAF sensor, etc.

Like brokenantimatter suggested, the next step should be to get the codes read, posted on here, then we can hone in on the next reasonable steps.

-Rod

Well...Report time...Somewhat...to begin and to show you all just how much I need this help...Car stopped on a exit ramp tonight...reason? no GAS! (who woulda thunk that when that lil red needle went past the "E" that would happen!...:()

Ok...I was on my way to the store when I ran out of gas so I did not make it today to get the codes But...I do have other things to report...

#1...I tested this over 25 times earlier today and tonight when I got home...When turning the A/C or the Ventilation/Heating??? (I had to use the Defrost because it was raining here tonight) the car Definitely loses rpm's (is that power???) I mean it goes way down as soon as these systems are turned on and it goes back up when they are turned off...each time...without fail

#2...When turning the above systems on, there is a definite "clicking" noise that seems to be coming from under the front hood on the passenger side of the car (not exactly sure that it is coming from that area because I was doing this by myself therefore I had to be mostly in the car while turning the A/C/Heating/Ventilation system on but, I am 90% sure it was coming from that side of the car under the hood).

#3...I forgot to mention yesterday that there was also a pronounced "shutting down" or "door closing" type noise near the radio when the A/C was turned off...but that was yesterday...now I don't hear that but I do hear the "clicking" sound mentioned above.

#4...and Lastly...although the "dragging" feeling has been intermittant for a year and has gotten progressively worse, the stalling and the worse dragging started AFTER the dealership "fixed" the A/C (it had started blowing hot air and was only blowing through the Defrost vents). They also did the recall work on the Wire Harness thingy for the 2002 Taurus'...

At any rate, I still plan to take the car to the store to get the codes and post them here tomorrow (as I got some gas :)).

Oh...and Rod...the car has 67,168 miles on it and I am sure I missed two oil changes (haven't had one in 10,000 miles (omg that's 3 isn't?)...and...What's a Tune-up??? (j/k)...:)....I have never had one

This is giving me new respect for Maintenance...usually at this point...I would just get a new car and hope this one ran while the dealer checked it for trade-in value....but right now...I am not in that position...

One more thing....brokenantimatter...I tested the Overdrive and did not notice much of a difference...it still stalled out.

Latest...I tested the A/C/Heating system again....now the clicking noise I heard when turning it on and off...is happening anywhere from 5 to 8 times (sometimes longer) while the system is on...cars tries to rev up (go above the 1 on the rpm meter (tach???) then it clicks and rpms fall down...the clicking is rythmic/like a pattern

Will post scores later today.

Thanks...T

The clicking you are hearing is probably the A/C compressor clutch engaging and disengaging. If it is at a pretty quick rate, that would indicate your A/C system is low on refridgerant. When the A/C compressor kicks in, it is supposed to send a signal to the Idle Air Control (IAC) to speed up the engine to accomodate the increased engine load. I

You need to determine if your engine speed increases when the compressor clutch engages or disengages. This will help determine if your IAC is working properly. Watch the compressor clutch (belt driven) at the compressor pulley. When you hear a click, the outermost portion of the compressor pulley will either start to rotate or stop rotating.

When engaged (increased load on enging) the portion will be rotating. Is this when the engine speeds up or slows down?

-Rod

Hi Rod...I will check what you wrote either tonight or first thing in the morning...I haven't counted the intervals between clicks but I can tell you this...as of this afternoon...the A/C is not working again...it's blowing hot air!!...Autozone employee said he saw no codes for the A/C and that it probably needs refrigerant (how easy is that to do myself???)...Thanks!

Ok...my codes from Autozone....Here we go:

P1131 - Lack of HO2S Switch - Sensor Indicates Lean

P1151 - Lack of H02S21 Switch - Sensor Indicates Lean

P0171 - The PCM has determined that during testing, the fuel system for
Bank 1 was too lean (Bank 1 identifies the location of cylinder #1.
While Bank 2 identifies the cylinders on the opposite Bank)

P0174 - The PCM has determined that during testing, the fuel system for
Bank 2 was too lean (Bank 1 identified the location of cylinder #1.
While Bank 2 identifies the cylinders on the opposite Bank)

P0300 and P0316 - Autozone employee said "I don't have these, they must be
with??? the Dealer"...He could not tell me what they
indicated.

Everything I typed was printed on the papers he gave me...I have no clue what they mean.

Also, the Autozone employee that tested my car said he thought it "just needs a Tune-up". He also mentioned a bad "coil" (something the spark plug wire connects to???)

Any help is appreciated...Thanks!

10K not that bad for oil change but I'd get it done ASAP and hence forth try to limit it to 7500 miles if you have easy driving conditions and 5000 if it's city or dusty driving conditions. The suggested oil change intervals are in your manual.

"What's a Tune-up???" A technician hooks up a sophisticated computer and analyzes your vehicle and engine to insure everything is functioning OK and if not they make corrections and fix it to perform at maximum efficency.

We're dealing with a *whole bunch* of hypothetics here and what the technicians need is for you to post the codes so they can go to work and until they get them we're sort'a spittin' in the wind for distance.

Hey Huney...yeah I knew everything was pure speculation without the codes...I think we were posting at the same time...I just got them today and just posted them...

Thanks for all your help!...

PS...the "what's a tune-up question was a joke...(but I am almost that ignorant when it comes to cars)...

WHOOPS! My Bad. I didn't see the codes she posted. :rolleyes:

The P0300 and P0316 codes are generic codes, not manufacturer-specific, so the Autozone book should have had them. This is another reason we usually suggest you get the actual codes and post them here (which you did) rather than take the word of the person at the parts store. P0300 means a random misfire was detected, but the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) was unable to determine which cylinder/cylinders is/are misfiring. The P0316 code means the misfire was detected within the first 1000 revolutions of the engine.

Possible causes of P0300:

Camshaft position sensor (CMP)
Low fuel: less than 1/8 tank
Stuck open EGR valve
Blocked EGR passages Possible causes of P0316:

Damaged CKP sensor
Ignition system
Fuel Injectors
Running out of fuel
Fuel Quality
Base Engine
Damaged PCM A tune up including a fuel filter and adding a bottle of fuel injector cleaner to the fuel tank may be a good place to start.

-Rod

Huney :)..Thanks!

Rod...

You talked mostly about the last two codes...is your suggestion based on all the codes or just those two? I ask because I want to know if I need to keep searching for other things I may need to do based on the other codes too or...if you think the tune-up could possibly correct all the codes...OR...just do what you said ...see what happens...report it back here..and go from there

Also, what's a good price for a tune-up?

Is it something I could do if I put my mind to it? I used to work in a GM and a Ford plant (built Cadillac engines and water pumps @ GM and Rear Axles @ Ford)...I am somewhat inclined to know what some of these things are if I see a book or instructions and have the right tools...but,

is that feasible for me to even consider?

Can I do a tune-up in "sessions" so I can continue to use my car as I go?

Will my engine blow up if I keep driving it in the condition I have been describing?



I am sorry if I sound desparate...but I am...this is more than frustrating...not just to think about the $$ it may cost but when driving and stopping at lights...it's stressful having to worry about my car stalling out and having to restart it and wondering if the person behind me is aware or just going to start driving and hit me...All you Gentlemen/Ladies help is greatly appreciated...I know it's hard to convey emotions through the written word sometimes...but your help is meaning the world to me...If I trusted the system I would have just taken it to someone and asked them to fix it...I don't trust the system anymore...I mean...the dealer had it twice since 7/4/06 and they didn't get these codes???...that's hard to believe since the problem started a year ago...

I'll check back in the morning or tomorrow evening....Thanks again...T

I focused on those codes primarily because you didn't have a description for them, but in general, you start by troubleshooting the highest code number first, and that may fix some of the lower codes. Certainly, the possible causes of the P0316 and P0300 could cause the P017x codes. The P1xyz codes are manufacturer specific codes for Ford, and I can provide you with the troubleshooting steps for those as well.

Generally though, any of the codes you posted could be caused by components replaced as part of a tune up. If you haven't had a tune up performed in the last 30k miles or so, it won't be a waste of money.

I suspect that with a Haynes, Chilton, or Ford service manual for your car, and a fair assortment of tools, you could certainly perform the tune up yourself. Be sure as part of the process to replace the fuel filter and add a bottle of fuel injector cleaner to the fuel tank.

The rear three plugs and wires will probably be the most difficult part of the tune up.

If you have access to a fuel pressure guage, it might serve you well to check the fuel pressure once you have a new fuel filter installed.

As for doing the tune up in sessions, yes, it is possible. However, if you find a step that seems to remedy your current issues, many times people will stop there and not actually finish the job. That's just asking delaying the inevitable.

As for continuing to drive the car if there really is a lean condition, yes, it could cause extensive damage to your engine. There is a risk of it burning the valves, which would probably be worst case.

-Rod

If the PCM is causing a problem that is part of the exaust/emission system and the PCM controls a whole lot of things to make the engine running efficently as possible. Not to lean and not to rich so as to introduce more pollution into the air. Here's the punch line; by Federal law emission system compontnts are warrantied for eight years or eighty thousand miles.

"I don't trust the system anymore...I mean...the dealer had it twice since 7/4/06 and they didn't get these codes???" Rod said code P0316 could indicate a damaged PCM and it is an important part of the "Emission System."
"The Federal Emissions Warranty guidelines are based on federal regulations and apply to vehicles in all 50 states. Vehicles are covered by two types of emissions control system warranty, "Emission Defect Warranty" and "Emissions Performance Warranty".

Don't take this as Gospel and let Rod or BrokenMatter confirm it, but I highly suspect your problem is really Fords problem and I'd have a serious pow-wow with the Ford dealer and if I got any guff my next step would be call Fords customer relations dept. I'm sure the Feds would help after you exhausted resources at the local level because if the Ford dealer is jerking you around the Feds will not take kindly to that at all. The reason Ford has to replace the PCM is because it must be programmed by a Ford factory computer because it is set up to make that particular engine run at peak efficency and use as little gas and put out the least exaust emissions/pollutants as it can.

Dig deep in that owners manual and see what it says about warranty because I recently had an issue with the PCM engine idling real rough and ours is an 03 with 40K miles and the Ford dealer told me they would replace the PCM anytime I was ready. I asked him about the 8 yrs or 80K mi PCM emission component warranty and he said that is correct. Another punch line; If it is the PCM it will not cost you one dime to get it repaired. :grinyes:

OH! In order for Ford to replace it they MUST diagnose it and be able to pull up the error codes indicating the PCM is bad and they will not take your word, (or mine), for it. Hence, I hope you didn't clear the error codes but if they did then the CEL should come on again shortly with the same codes.

:1: on the lean bank codes

I would clear the codes out and maybe have a hard a reset it runs $55 last time I checked but I am seriously leaning towards EGR or MAF failure, it can cause all sorts of random fuck ups.

P1131 - Lack of HO2S Switch - Sensor Indicates Lean

Fuel Injectors Malfunction
Oxygen Sensor Failure
Exhaust Leak
EGR Failure
MAF Failure P1151 - Lack of H02S21 Switch - Sensor Indicates Lean

Fuel Injectors Malfunction
0xygen Sensor Failure
Exhaust Leak
EGR Failure
MAF Failure
P0171 - System Lean - Bank 1

O2 Sensor Failure
MAF Failure
Fuel Injector Failure
Exhaust Leak
EGR Failure
Fuel Regulator Failure
P0174 - System Lean - Bank 2

O2 Sensor Failure
MAF Failure
Fuel Injector Failure
Exhaust Leak
EGR Failure
Fuel Regulator Failure P0300 - Multiple Ignition Failure

O2 Sensor Failure
MAF Failure
Fuel Injector Failure
EGR Failure
PCM Failure
Faulty Ignition System Componet
P0316 - Multiple Ignition Failure below 1000 rpms

O2 Sensor Failure
MAF Failure
Fuel Injector Failure
EGR Failure
Fuel Regulator Failure
PCM Failure
Faulty Ignition System Componet

Pretty much an all inclusive list of potential issues causing your codes from the factory service manual is:

Electrical:
Short to VPWR in harness or HO2S
Water in harness connector
Open/Shorted HO2S circuit
Corrosion or poor mating terminals and wiring
Damaged HO2S
Damaged PCM
Fuel System:
Excessive fuel pressure
Leaking/contaminated fuel injectors
Leaking fuel pressure regulator
Low fuel pressure or running out of fuel
Vapor recovery system
Induction System:
Air leaks after the MAF
Vacuum Leaks
PCV system
Improperly seated engine oil dipstick
EGR System:
Leaking gasket
Stuck EGR valve
Leaking diaphragm or EVR
Base Engine:
Oil overfill
Cam timing
Cylinder compression
Exhaust leaks before or near the HO2S(s) Since you are getting meaningful and related diagnostic codes, I would not initially suspect the PCM as the fault. Go down the list above and check out the simple things first such as making sure you don't have vacuum leaks, the air intake hose is connected securely and properly, the MAF sensor is plugged in, the coolant temperature sensor is in spec, run a bottle of fuel injector cleaner through the system, replace the fuel filter, and check the fuel pressure at the rail both key on engine off and with the engine running, etc.

-Rod

You all are the best! I need to digest all this information and do some reading on how to do the things Rod suggested. And Rod...on the clicking noise I hear when the A/C/Ventilation system is on...the part that's making the noise is a part that the belt is running on at the bottom...it's the smallest part in that whole belt assembly thingy...the clicking occurs when this piece on the side of that attempts to spin...I see bolts on the outside of it...it trys to spin, then clicks, then stops...and trys all over again....I was going to try to get a schematic of that part to get the name of it...but you may understand what it is from my description (if so then you are an automotive God or something :))

brokenantimatter why clear the codes out? To have it read again and see if they turn up the same?

Huney thank you too...I read the Federal Emissions Warranty and I am wondering that if one of those parts are the issue, how hard would it be for me to argue for the free repair knowing I have let maintenance...shall we say..."slip" a little (or a lot depending on where your from...**sheesh**) At any rate, that (if I am reading it correctly) is one of the ways Manufacturers can get out of doing the repairs for free.

In the mean time I have to go pick my daughter up from MI this weekend (I am driving my other daughters car) so this one will be resting. It is so bad and stessing me out so much though (not to mention what Rod said about messing it up and the worse case scenario) that I am done driving it now until I get it totally fixed. It means extra driving for me or money to some rental place but better that now than a car note and a busted car to show for it.

I'll let you all know what I find out...and Thanks again for all your help.

T

The "clicking piece" you are referring to certainly sounds like the air conditioner (A/C) compressor clutch. When the compressor needs to run, the PCM commands the compressor field coil to energize. When energized, the field coil is an electro-magnet and pulls the clutch in to engage the compressor, locking the pulley to the compressor drive and hence spinning the compressor crankshaft.

As for the lean condition causing damage to the engine, it likely is not at a state where it would yet be likely to burn valves, but that is a possibility. Better safe than sorry though. In actuality, if you are faced with the option of renting a car, you would probably be better served to find an independent shop that comes recommended by friends and spend the money you would on a rental car paying the technician to diagnose and fix your car. Certainly you would not get the satisfaction of doing the repair yourself, and knowing what it really took to fix the issues, but it may save you money in the long run.

-Rod

Does the clicking noise come from something that resembles the drawing at the following link?
http://z.about.com/d/autorepair/1/0/F/Q/merc_ac_gap_139c.gif

If so, yes, that is your A/C compressor clutch. The clicking noise is normal, but the rate at which you hear it may indicate your A/C system is low on refridgerant.

-Rod

Rod!..That's it exactly!...That part on the end with the bolts on it!...Cool!...I do believe its refrigerant now too as far as the A/C is concerned. And I thought about what you said too after I said I was going to get a rental...I agree that money is better spent getting the car fixed. I am going to ask around at work to try and find a good, reasonable and HONEST mechanic.

Thanks again for all your help....and I will defnitely come back to let you all know what fixed the problem!....

T

"how hard would it be for me to argue for the free repair knowing I have let maintenance...shall we say..."slip" a little." Let's get this in proper perspective; You do not have to argue or beg for a da-- thing because Federal Law mandates all emission related components be warrantied for 8 years or 80K miles, period, end of story.

The PCM is a self contained computer and has nothing to do with how you maintain your car. Wait, I said that wrong. What I meant to say is, shoddy owner maintenance would not cause the PCM to go bad and my mechanic told me the PCM's in some Tauri have "issues" and my 03 is one of them and I bet your 02 has "issues" to. DUH? What gets me is my Ford dealer was ready and willing to help me with replacing my PCM but IMHO yours is a real dip stick and hasn't done much but give you the run around. Boy would I ever like to scream obscenities and tap dance on his desk.

The Enviromental Protection Agency lobbied this emissions hoopla and got it passed into Federal Law and I bet they would love to know Ford is balking about complying with the Federal Emissions Law. First I'd see what the dealer has to say about fixing it and if they jerk you around CALL this lady and if she can't help I bet she knows someone who can.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Carol Connell, U.S. EPA, National Vehicle and Fuels Emission Laboratory, 2000 Traverwood, Ann Arbor MI 48105; Telephone (734) 214-4349, FAX (734) 214-4816, E-mail [email protected]. http://www.epa.gov/EPA-AIR/1999/May/Day-13/a11384a.htm I hate to bring the wolf around anyones door but by golly if they welch out on a bonafide warranty then I'd fight 'em tooth and nail. Long day, I'm tired, nitey-nite. Z z z z z z. . . .

Huney...Thank you!...and rest assured I will be taking it to ANOTHER dealer...not the one that recently had it..(they are not the dealer I bought it from anyway)...and trust me..I too want to do a little dance on his desk!...:). I appreciate the info and I am definitely going to pursue the issue!

T...from Michigan getting on the road back to GA!

"T...from Michigan getting on the road back to GA!" I saw the GAlegal and sonered if you were form the great state of Jaw-jah. I'm in SC about 30 minutes from Savannah so if you'll PM me I'll be more specific.

PM sent Huney1...Thanks!

sounds to me like a pretty big vac. leak or bad spark plugs could be causing your problem