addind 134 to r 12

i have a 87 ss the air blows cool but not enough to make a differnce.. and i was wondering what would happen if i add 134 to it.. it has the r-12 in it now and thats to spendy.. Thank You

In order to use R-134a refigerant in your a/c system, you must first evacuate all the old R-12 out of it. In most cases to use R-134a you must purchase a retrofit kit that allows the use of the new refrigerant. The new refrigerant runs under a higher operating pressure, older systems such as yours may not be able to handle it without replacing some of the system's components.
R-134a was introduced in 1992 as a replacement for the old R-12, because it has similar cooling properties. But, they are different. They use a different compressor oil, and are chemically different and will not work together. The fittings are also different. Federal law also prohibits the mixing of the 2 refrigerants because of cross- contamination. R-12 was discontinued because of it's harmful effects on the environment. Supplies of new and recycled R-12 are dwindling as time passes, thus increasing the price for servicing an R-12 system. Repair shops are supposed to be certified by the EPA to be able to handle (including recycling of the old R-12,) and servicing of these systems. Therefore it is not reccomended that DIYers tackle the job of servicing or converting their a/c systems that contain the old R-12 refrigerant.

thank you.. im a just bring it in and have r-12 added [just a little] and convert system next year

thank you.. im a just bring it in and have r-12 added [just a little] and convert system next year

And do not even think about.

Wal Mart DEATH KITS

You cannot properly and safely recharge an air condition system with them.

The one side stop and go gauge does not tell you what your system is doing or is over charged or undercharged.
A overcharged or malfunction air condition system can reach over 500 lbs of pressure.
Enough to blow up that can or system and freeze you at first and the burn you or blind you and if any propane /butane in there blow and light you up.

The stop leak crap and who knows what kind of oil in the kits there will stop your system for sure.
Just like pouring super glue in it.
And some kits even contain freon with a butane mixer.
Good for a big blast.

If you are going to do it do it right and safe.
Here is what you need to start with.
http://www.ackits.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AMA&Product_Code=66773

In the older days you could just throw in a can and go.
But over the years just adding freon is getting harder to do.
Newer systems have to have the correct amount of freon down to the ounces.
Most will need pumped down and vacuumed down and the right and amount of oil and a set amount freon charge installed to get the air to cool right and the system to last.
If an air condition is low there is usually a leak that needs fixed and also a lose of lubricating oil from system.
Also air and moisture enters a low system
If you are going to try to do it get the proper type air condition gauge set with the low and high side gauges.
Hook up the gauges and get a reading with compressor running at idle and at 2000 rpm on the high and low side.
Post back pressure reading and we can help you.
MT

I've had much better luck using R414B as a top-off and replacement for R12. It's refrigerant properties are MUCH closer to R-12 than those of R134A. Older systems designed for the lower operating pressures of R-12 and with smaller evaporators (sized for the more efficient R-12) tend to get very taxed and provide only marginal cooling when ambient temperatures start to rise about 90°. In other words, when you really need your A/C, the R134A retrofits tend to fall on their faces, running at higher head pressures, and having poorer latent heat capacity than either R-12 or R414B. Further, the system must be fully evacuated, wash, evacuated again, and a larger expansion control must be installed to get perfromance even close to R-12 at moderate temperatures. And as previously stated, the oils are completely incompatible. R414B is completely miscible with R-12 and its oils. And it's only about $12/pound.

Later systems don't suffer those same problems since the evaporators and condensers are sized much larger and more efficiently, and the expansion controls are appropriate for R134A.

[QUOTE=Blue Bowtie]I've had much better luck using R414B as a top-off and replacement for R12. It's refrigerant properties are MUCH closer to R-12 than those of R134A. Older systems designed for the lower operating pressures of R-12 and with smaller evaporators (sized for the more efficient R-12) tend to get very taxed and provide only marginal cooling when ambient temperatures start to rise about 90°. In other words, when you really need your A/C, the R134A retrofits tend to fall on their faces, running at higher head pressures, and having poorer latent heat capacity than either R-12 or R414B. Further, the system must be fully evacuated, wash, evacuated again, and a larger expansion control must be installed to get perfromance even close to R-12 at moderate temperatures. And as previously stated, the oils are completely incompatible. R414B is completely miscible with R-12 and its oils. And it's only about $12/pound.

Later systems don't suffer those same problems since the evaporators and condensers are sized much larger and more efficiently, and the expansion controls are appropriate for R134A.[/QUOTE

where can you get R414B?? can you add that your self? has anyone herd of http://www.glaciergoldrefrigerants.com/ ??

can you add that your self?

Yes, I can, since I've been certified since 1994. R414B can only be purchased by certified refirgeration techs. The beauties of the product are that it can be used WITH R-12 or as a direct replacement and it is reasonably priced. That means less labor and material cost for repairing older systems.

The problem with using many of these replacement refrigerants is that the system being charged must still be evacuated, converted, and labelled as such before adding anything. You cannot simply add these products over existing R-12.

i have a 87 ss the air blows cool but not enough to make a differnce.. and i was wondering what would happen if i add 134 to it.. it has the r-12 in it now and thats to spendy.. Thank You

Most mixing or adding blends to r-12 is illegal.
And you also run the risk of blowing someone elses recovery machine down the road.
A lot of blends are illegal.
The ones that are allowed need the proper retrofit kits and need to have be proper labled and proper fitting added.

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc12alng.html#q5

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/lists/index.html

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/lists/mvacs.html

Substitutes Acceptable Subject to Use Conditions for CFC-12 (class I ODS) in MVACs
Substitute (Name Used in the Federal Register) Trade Name Retrofit/ New
HCFC-22 R, N (Buses Only)*
HFC-134a R, N
R-406A GHG, GHG-X3, GHG-12, McCool, Autofrost X3 R, N
GHG-X4, R-414A (HCFC Blend Xi) GHG-X4, Autofrost, Chill-it, Autofrost X4 R, N
Small auxiliary power units that include an engine, electrical alternator, water pump, air conditioning compressor and a heat exchanger used in tractor trailers in conjunction with passenger compartment climate control systems that already use an acceptable substitute refrigerant. R, N


Hot Shot, R-414B (HCFC Blend Omicron) Hot Shot, Kar Kool R, N


FRIGC FR-12, (HCFC Blend Beta), R-416A FRIGC FR-12 R, N
Free Zone, (HCFC Blend Delta) Free Zone / RB-276 R, N
Freeze 12 Freeze 12 R, N
GHG-X5 GHG-X5 R, N
GHG-HP (HCFC Blend Lambda) GHG-HP R, N
Ikon 12, Ikon A (Blend Zeta) Ikon 12 R, N
SP34E SP34E R, N
Stirling Cycle N
CO2 N
RS-24 RS-24 R, N
Evaporative Cooling N
R-420A Choice Refrigerant R
Key: R = Retrofit Uses, N = New Uses



MT

Yes, I can, since I've been certified since 1994. R414B can only be purchased by certified refirgeration techs. The beauties of the product are that it can be used WITH R-12 or as a direct replacement and it is reasonably priced. That means less labor and material cost for repairing older systems.

The problem with using many of these replacement refrigerants is that the system being charged must still be evacuated, converted, and labelled as such before adding anything. You cannot simply add these products over existing R-12.


There is no legal direct drop in to /or add to replacement for R12.
Unique fittings and a label is required with all SNAP refrigerants when replacing R12 with a reto.
Also vehicles without a HPCO switch are required to have one if an alternative replacement snap refrigerant is used on a retro.
And if the outside temp is over a 100 degrees other mods may be need to get it to work right.
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/609/wantknow.html

i wanted to weigh options of filling up with r-12 or having system converted to 134 i called 1 shop and was told 350 to convert it to 134.. what needs to be changed out???

Strange, how in the industry, adding a tertiary blend to an existing charge in an R-12 system is acceptable, but in mobile systems it is not. My certification is universal (40CFR 82F), in non-mobile (except aircraft and rail) applications. I still get to play with 30G and 55G drums of liquid R-11, and some ammonia on occasion.

I wasn't aware it is not allowed on mobile systems, but further investigation reveals you are correct. I'll withdraw my statement (for mobile applications, anyway). I guess that's why there is a differentiation between mobile and commercial systems certification. I'm going to accidentally forget that my older vehicles are running on a mixture right now...

I know of a buttload of walk-in coolers, vending machines, computer ice stations, water coolers, and other small systems that are operating on R414B/R12 mixtures. Of course, they still have to be labelled as such. Reclaimed refrigerant has to be into its own cylinder, and AFAIK the contents are still catalyzed and incinerated. $$$

i wanted to weigh options of filling up with r-12 or having system converted to 134 i called 1 shop and was told 350 to convert it to 134.. what needs to be changed out???

You might check around some more.
Depending how low and how bad yours is leaking it might be better to stay with R-12.
On change over.
If you get some one to pump it out you can change it over yourself.
If any leaks they need to be checked and fixed.
Reciever dryer new .
The old r-12 oil flushed out and the correct and right amount of R-134 oil.
may need a High pressure cut off switch and labels and r-134-a fittings.
Is your system a orfice tube or a poa valve system.
Also old r-12 hoses are a risk on that one.
here is a link with a lot of good info on it to.
http://www.autoacforum.com/
Good Luck MT

Strange, how in the industry, adding a tertiary blend to an existing charge in an R-12 system is acceptable, but in mobile systems it is not. My certification is universal (40CFR 82F), in non-mobile (except aircraft and rail) applications. I still get to play with 30G and 55G drums of liquid R-11, and some ammonia on occasion.

I wasn't aware it is not allowed on mobile systems, but further investigation reveals you are correct. I'll withdraw my statement (for mobile applications, anyway). I guess that's why there is a differentiation between mobile and commercial systems certification. I'm going to accidentally forget that my older vehicles are running on a mixture right now...

I know of a buttload of walk-in coolers, vending machines, computer ice stations, water coolers, and other small systems that are operating on R414B/R12 mixtures. Of course, they still have to be labelled as such. Reclaimed refrigerant has to be into its own cylinder, and AFAIK the contents are still catalyzed and incinerated. $$$


10-4 on that Blue Bowtie
I hear that R414B really puts the cold in there.
I think it is allowed for a complete change over but not a add in to r-12.
It can get very confusing and they may change law again some day to.
I had to double ckeck the law on it to be sure they had not changed it..
On blends in cars the isobutane mixer is what makes me worry.
At least R-12 is going back down. The price is lowering all the time.
MT