Who Would Win

Me: 205hp 3.8L V6
Friend: Volkswaggen Jetta GLI w/ 180hp turbo engine.

yours is auto or manual?
and how about his? l say it will be a close race but you will get him! (beacuse he is like 300lbs. lighter than you)

just line up and go! let us know the result!

im auto hes manual

sprry but i say the jetta, cuz it is fwd and is lighter and the turbo makes good power.

sprry but i say the jetta, cuz it is fwd and is lighter and the turbo makes good power.

so you are saying fwd>rwd? l dont think fwd can beat a rwd.. agree on turbo.. but he has more 25hp than jetta and jetta has 300lbs. less weight and also fwd! l say close race and firebird might put a bumper ahead!

fwd has better traction up to a certain point because the engine sits on it... rwd is only better when you get the weight to shift to the back...

im going to have to go with the 3.8, just cuz it has more displacement.. more torquey then the jetta! hp numbers dont matter that much in a straight line race and i think turbo numbers seem a little higher than they should be just because they get a lot of power up high..

++ turbo lag! :D

fwd has better traction up to a certain point because the engine sits on it... rwd is only better when you get the weight to shift to the back...

im going to have to go with the 3.8, just cuz it has more displacement.. more torquey then the jetta! hp numbers dont matter that much in a straight line race and i think turbo numbers seem a little higher than they should be just because they get a lot of power up high..

when you launch the car, it lifts the nose up a little and all weight goes to rear. l drove a v6 mercury sable 200hp FWD, off the line when l floor it, the car lifts the nose up a little and tires were spinning. l drove a v6 mustang RWD 200hp, when l floored, that car hardly spinned.

if the powers are equal, l believe rear wheel drive will jump ahead off the line..

You will win. ( but your friend will be ahead in the beggining)

up to like 200~250 hp a fwd car should beat a rwd off the line.. with the same tires..

the weight does transfer to the back a little but unless you have a really powerful car the weight of the motor in the front is better than the weight that transfers..

did the sable + stang have same tires/trac control/etc?

I'd say one reason you might lose is because the jetta's '00 and up only lose about 6% of their power to the wheels, unfortunately yours probably loses more like 20-30% of its power to the wheels..but whatever you won't know until you race!

up to like 200~250 hp a fwd car should beat a rwd off the line.. with the same tires..

the weight does transfer to the back a little but unless you have a really powerful car the weight of the motor in the front is better than the weight that transfers..

did the sable + stang have same tires/trac control/etc?

mercury had sticky goodyear tires. l have no idea what mustang had.. just a regular mustang tires l believe.

that jetta might jump ahead cuz it has less weight but l believe firebird will catch him.

if they would both had the same tires, the same weight, the same tranny, the same power, RWD>FWD (IMO)

I have to side with the Jetta in this one. You both probably put about the same HP to the wheels. (You being auto, him being manual) But he also has the weight advantage. You should get him out the hole being auto, but if he's a decent driver, he's gonna walk you.

BTW RWD is better than FWD.

AWD is the best though..... (to a certain HP level.)

not if you have little hp and its a ff car.. compared to a fr

i think it goes like..

fwd>rwd low hp..the 80s daytona claimed this, at least.. just cuz the engine is the heaviest part of the car and its over the :gasp: front wheels :P and the weight transfer for a crappy small launch doesnt shift the weight to the back wheels enough!


awd>fwd&rwd at medium hp, rwd>fwd @ same hp..
cuz awd has the most traction, nicest launch.. and since around this hp, the weight tranfers enough on the rwd to get a better launch than the fwd car..
this is assuming you can set your car up to be a drag car, meaning rear wheels have cushy springs! and you have like..90/10 shocks in the front..?

rwd > awd, fwd at really high hp/ long run.. (since awd loses a lot of power to the drivetrain..)

The Firebird will win. Just look at what both run and on top of that RWD is better for performance or why else would every muscle and sports car to this day being using rwd. As pointed out by someone when you launch you do not place the weight on the front of the vehicle, the force is to the rear of the vehicle. The front rises and the rear squats. I can take a 200 horse fwd car and chirp them on every wot launch with 225 - 255 tires but the same will not take place on a rwd car. As for why the 3.8 will win, the turbo has to spool up before that power is usable and the 4l60-e is a excellent drag tranny. It loses very little compared to what other makes and prior auto's have. Its electronic wot shift points allow you to go up to red and instant shifting into the next gear which is a huge advantage to taking full potential of your powerband and will shift faster than a human can and not miss a shift due to driver error. This to me adds up to win not to mention I have seen plenty of 3.8 F-bodys beat SOHC 4.6 and 5.0 Stangs with my own eyes with little to no mods. I have yet to see this take place with a Jetta.

Both of these cars in manual form are good for mid 15 second quartermiles. The auto forms run 16's. I totally agree with you that RWD is the ideal drivetrain for performance. But that still doesn't change the fact that rwd gets more parasitic drivetrain loss than fwd. And add to that the fact that he's an auto makes that even worse for him. Granted, it will be a much easier launch for the firebird because of the RWD, but if the Jetta is a decent driver, he won't be too far behind. But as the race goes on, weight and wheel hp become more of a factor than the drive train. I suppose you guys have never drove a Turbo jetta. there is max torque in those things by like 2800 rpms. So right after the launch, the jetta should start walking him. When my dsm was stock, I raced a firebird auto on nitrous, and a jetta GLI before. Were I completely obliterated the firebird (without his N20. With N20.... I was raped), the jetta would start to pull me in at around 70hp, lucky he never did though. Then again I think the jetta had a MBC..... well best way to find out is to race, and record it for us.

Both of these cars in manual form are good for mid 15 second quartermiles. The auto forms run 16's. I totally agree with you that RWD is the ideal drivetrain for performance. But that still doesn't change the fact that rwd gets more parasitic drivetrain loss than fwd. And add to that the fact that he's an auto makes that even worse for him. Granted, it will be a much easier launch for the firebird because of the RWD, but if the Jetta is a decent driver, he won't be too far behind. But as the race goes on, weight and wheel hp become more of a factor than the drive train. I suppose you guys have never drove a Turbo jetta. there is max torque in those things by like 2800 rpms. So right after the launch, the jetta should start walking him. When my dsm was stock, I raced a firebird auto on nitrous, and a jetta GLI before. Were I completely obliterated the firebird (without his N20. With N20.... I was raped), the jetta would start to pull me in at around 70hp, lucky he never did though. Then again I think the jetta had a MBC..... well best way to find out is to race, and record it for us.
What applys to one car does not apply to all. Its common knowledge that Auto 4th Gen Fbodys run faster in the 1/4 than the manual counter part. Also the parastic lose you speak of is like 2 - 3 % if that. On a 200 horse car that adds up to 4 - 6 horse. Add in torque, wider power band and the fact the 4L60-e is widely known to have a 1/4 mile advantage. (as can be seen by a friend of mines car who is also a AF member http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=184935 ) He runs high 14's all day with no major mods. He has gears, a lite weight DS , cai and a exhaust all basic stuff there. Thats a auto btw. So unless your saying his mods add up to dropping two full seconds. I think we can agree the firebird will most likely win. Not kill him but win.

Well guys,,I hate to rain on your parades but.....my daughter has a 1998 Camaro completely stock with the optional tire package. I drove it to work a couple of months ago and one of my engineers has a 2002 Jetta 1.8T engine. We switched cars after each run and the Jetta won by 2-3 car lengths each time in a 1/4 mile run. Its not just front drive versus rear drive,,keep in mind each vehicle has optional grear ratios, tire size, driver response, and engine basics such as injector condition, fuel pressure/filter. I did however, dust him in the Firebird and the Mustang. I am sure one can build the GM V6 into a quicker 1/4 ET but why? Drop in a crate target master for around 600bucks and put a few mods in. Then its Jetta munching time. Enjoy:evillol:

If you can get off the line good, you'll beat him. I have cousin that has a jetta turbo and when i had my 96 Firebird we raced and he couldn't beat me. Through 1st gear he was a lil bit infront of me and middle to the end of 2nd I pulled on him and past him, when i hit my brakes i was at the end of 3rd and probably 2 cars infront of him. Mine was auto and his was a manual and he can drive a stick good.

Well there ya have it. One person says they had basically the same race and the F-body lost and one member say's they had basically the same race and it won. So to answer your question, go race and tell us. However if I was a betting man. My cash would be on the F-body.

i agree with the fbody.. ;P just saying sometimes fwd is a little better than the rwd.. usually not tho

I agree,,,plus I think my daughters Camaro has the lower rear end gear option or maybe its the stock gear...enjoy

Auto cars could have had 2.73's, 2.93's, 3.08's, 3.23's rear gears and despite what I thought someone once told me there auto had RPO GU6 which means they had 3.42's. So that could make a big difference in a race.

I agree LT1,,,,ratios do make a difference

True and one of the reasons a 4L60-E has a advantage in the 1/4 is because of the transmission gearing but that is a good point. If you have 2.73's I could very well see the Jetta winning from a dead stop to a 1/4 cause that is a horrible gear for anything but highway racing.

Car-Stats.com Report for 2002 Volkswagen GLI

Obtained from MT February, 2003
0-60:7.2
Transmission: Manual
1/4 Mile:15.4
1/4 Speed:92

What do Stock auto firebirds run?

Edit: these are the only figures I can find for the Automatic V6 Firebird and they don't look too good.....

http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/1998/gap9837.html

Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price $ 18,015
Price As Tested $21,825
Engine Type 3.8 Liter V6 w/SFI*
Engine Size 231 cid/3791 cc
Horsepower (http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/1998/gap9837.html#) 200 @ 5200 RPM
Torque (lb-ft) 225 @ 4000 RPM
Wheelbase/Width/Length 101.1"/74.1"/193.2"
Transmission Four-speed automatic
Curb Weight 3298 pounds
Fuel Capacity 15.5 gallons
Tires (F/R) P215/60R16
Brakes (F/R) Disc-ABS/disc-ABS
Drive Train Front-engine/rear-wheel-drive
Vehicle Type Four-passenger/Two-door
Domestic Content 86 percent
Coefficient of Drag (Cd.) N/A

PERFORMANCE

EPA Economy, miles per gallon
city/highway/average 19/29/25
0-60 MPH 7.5 seconds
1/4 Mile (E.T.) 16.5 seconds @ 84 MPH
Top Speed (Est.) 105 MPH
* Sequential fuel injection (http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/1998/gap9837.html#)


My girlfriend just brought up another point, when she had here 2003 V6 6speed Tiburon, she killed a V6 bird also. And the tib is only pushing out 173hp. It was that same one I raced with the Nitrous.

1997 Pontiac Firebird 3.8l 7.2 15.5 (C&D Jun '97). Its more realistic to use the same publication for both or obtain a average from 3 or more publications but just to give a example of how much they can differ and there were some modifactions in performance since 97 to the 3.8 used in F-bodys but C&D got a 16.1 1/4 for the Jetta.. So the number can differ depending on a lot of different things such as gears like I said could make a big difference.

Edit: these are the only figures I can find for the Automatic V6 Firebird and they don't look too good.....
http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/1998/gap9837.html

Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price $ 18,015
Price As Tested $21,825
Engine Type 3.8 Liter V6 w/SFI*
Engine Size 231 cid/3791 cc
Horsepower (http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/1998/gap9837.html#) 200 @ 5200 RPM
Torque (lb-ft) 225 @ 4000 RPM
Wheelbase/Width/Length 101.1"/74.1"/193.2"
Transmission Four-speed automatic
Curb Weight 3298 pounds
Fuel Capacity 15.5 gallons
Tires (F/R) P215/60R16
Brakes (F/R) Disc-ABS/disc-ABS
Drive Train Front-engine/rear-wheel-drive
Vehicle Type Four-passenger/Two-door
Domestic Content 86 percent
Coefficient of Drag (Cd.) N/A

PERFORMANCE

EPA Economy, miles per gallon
city/highway/average 19/29/25
0-60 MPH 7.5 seconds
1/4 Mile (E.T.) 16.5 seconds @ 84 MPH
Top Speed (Est.) 105 MPH
* Sequential fuel injection (http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/1998/gap9837.html#)


My girlfriend just brought up another point, when she had here 2003 V6 6speed Tiburon, she killed a V6 bird also. And the tib is only pushing out 173hp. It was that same one I raced with the Nitrous.
That site looks very official :lol:

Yeah..my car is auto and does have 3.42 gears formulalt1

What year is this Jetta?

Like i said, those were the only times i could find for a auto V6 firebird. The times you posted were for a manual one and the times would be different for an auto.

What makes you say its a Manual?

Edit- you're clearly unfamiliar with the gearing and shift points and 1/4 performance of 4th Gen F-bodys so unless you have some first hand knowledge on the subject to add. Other than I know all auto and all manual and everything about cars because I once raced a auto with a stick or because I had a friend with a. The best advice is to say race and go see. I know for a fact from seeing 4L60-E's race the same type of car with T5's and T-56's. Auto's usually (8 out of 10 times) win. There are alot of variables, major one being gearing but don't be the usual uneducated racer to just look at two cars and say one is a auto and one is a stick and the stick will win. Thats just ignorant.

Because I know what a manual firebird will run in the quarter mile. I had to know when I used to have my V6 stang. Also i know an automatic V6 firebird will not outrun or even equal a manual V6 firebird.

Because I know what a manual firebird will run in the quarter mile. I had to know when I used to have my V6 stang. Also i know an automatic V6 firebird will not outrun or even equal a manual V6 firebird.
So your calling me a liar? and everyone else on this board and every other F-body board I have visited for confirming the 4L60-E is better in the 1/4?

Formula, its 2004 Jetta GLI I-4 turbo

Actually I do agree with you that the auto tranny is probably the better tranny for drag racing, after all, they are more consistant and the tranny can take alot of horsepower. And once you got some good gears in the tranny it will most likely be faster than the manual. But were talking about a bone stock 3500lbs+ firebird V6 that only puts out about 200 hp. RWD drivetrain loss is usually around 15% to the wheels, and the fact that the car is auto makes the loss even worse. So probably about 18% to the wheels total.

Compared to a manual 1.8T jetta with 185 Hp, with only about a 9% drivetrain loss to the wheels. Plus a 300lbs weight difference. Thats why I say the Jetta will win.

Dont try and make it like Im making the a manual vs auto battle becuase I know the potential of a well built automatic. It's more than just transmission. Weight and WHP are factor too. Look at those 200 HP CRX's and civics running low 14's.

But stock for stock. Jetta is gonna mostly win if he's a good driver. PLEASE RECOND THIS WHEN IT HAPPENS!

Actually I do agree with you that the auto tranny is probably the better tranny for drag racing, after all, they are more consistant and the tranny can take alot of horsepower. And once you got some good gears in the tranny it will most likely be faster than the manual. But were talking about a bone stock 3500lbs+ firebird V6 that only puts out about 200 hp. RWD drivetrain loss is usually around 15% to the wheels, and the fact that the car is auto makes the loss even worse. So probably about 18% to the wheels total.

Compared to a manual 1.8T jetta with 185 Hp, with only about a 9% drivetrain loss to the wheels. Plus a 300lbs weight difference. Thats why I say the Jetta will win.

Dont try and make it like Im making the a manual vs auto battle becuase I know the potential of a well built automatic. It's more than just transmission. Weight and WHP are factor too. Look at those 200 HP CRX's and civics running low 14's.

But stock for stock. Jetta is gonna mostly win if he's a good driver. PLEASE RECOND THIS WHEN IT HAPPENS!
Using your stats on a 200 horsepower car we are talking about 6 horsepower difference. I can't believe you are making a issue that it can't be a auto in that car & driver cause it most likely lost 6 horsepower more without looking at all the other stats. Stock for stock the 4L60-E from a 1/4 mile view anyway is usually (in most cases) the advantaged transmission to its manual counterpart. This means in most cases in a street race with your average run of the mill drivers out there from light to light or block to block non highway racing. The auto will win. This does and will have a advantage in him racing his friend with a stick.