question about injector insulators leaking

ok so I just finished converting my n/t to a turbo, I have everything converted over although when I ease into the throttle right around 0 pressure on the boost gauge the car sputters really bad. Spark plugs are brand new and wires are 8.5 mm and fairly new. So I decided to check for boost leaks and Im getting an enormously bad leak through the injector insulators.(doesn't hold any pressure at all) I changed these when I put the 450s in but the one thing I noticed that was wierd was the lip on the injectors didn't press firmly into the insulators. there was about an 1/10" space between the top of the insulator and the lip on the injector. Now on my n/t injectors, the injectors actually left an imprint in the seals because they were pressed against them. now is there supposed to be another spacer in there around the injector. Or its almost like the fuel rail spaces are shorter on the turbo cars although I know thats not the case. What am i missing here?

Thanks guys

ok so I just finished converting my n/t to a turbo, I have everything converted over although when I ease into the throttle right around 0 pressure on the boost gauge the car sputters really bad. Spark plugs are brand new and wires are 8.5 mm and fairly new. So I decided to check for boost leaks and Im getting an enormously bad leak through the injector insulators.(doesn't hold any pressure at all) I changed these when I put the 450s in but the one thing I noticed that was wierd was the lip on the injectors didn't press firmly into the insulators. there was about an 1/10" space between the top of the insulator and the lip on the injector. Now on my n/t injectors, the injectors actually left an imprint in the seals because they were pressed against them. now is there supposed to be another spacer in there around the injector. Or its almost like the fuel rail spaces are shorter on the turbo cars although I know thats not the case. What am i missing here?

Thanks guys

I'm trying to understand what you are talking about. Are you talking about the insulator/spacer that keeps the injector stable in the manifold side? Or the rings that go around the back side for the fuel rail?

I'm sorry, should of been more clear, it was late when I was typing that message out.

Ok heres what I have, between the injectors and the fuel rail I have the small rubber o-rings which seal the fuel, thats fine. Then between the fuel rail bolts and the manifold I have the plastic spacers that always love to fall out when putting the fuel rail back in. Then the only thing I have between the injector nozzles and the manifold are the small rubber o-ring type seals that sit in the manifold (these are brand new). Now when I bolt up the fuel rail, the injectors don't press firmly into those seals (the ones that sit in the manifold), the injectors basically just sit in there, in fact you can kinda wiggle the injector back and forth a bit and this is where I'm loosing all my pressure. Now I did some research and I found with an injector seal kit you get the o-rings for the fuel rail to injectors, seals for the injectors to the manifold and also four plactic things, I don't have those and I'm guessing I probably need them, can somebody tell me what those are for?

Thanks

I think I understand what you're saying. Those little plastic spacers are a PITA, I've lost 2 out of 3. What I had to do was just eyeball it as best as possible when bolting the fuel rail down. It looks like you'll have to do without those spacers at all. I dont know much about nt to turbo conversions, but I would guess the measurements don't line up the same, something is longer, so you can't just bolt the fuel rail down enough to squeeze the injectors into the manifold. Just leave those spacers out, or find something that's a little bit smaller. Maybe those spacers come in different sizes?

I'm sorry, should of been more clear, it was late when I was typing that message out.

Ok heres what I have, between the injectors and the fuel rail I have the small rubber o-rings which seal the fuel, thats fine. Then between the fuel rail bolts and the manifold I have the plastic spacers that always love to fall out when putting the fuel rail back in. Then the only thing I have between the injector nozzles and the manifold are the small rubber o-ring type seals that sit in the manifold (these are brand new). Now when I bolt up the fuel rail, the injectors don't press firmly into those seals (the ones that sit in the manifold), the injectors basically just sit in there, in fact you can kinda wiggle the injector back and forth a bit and this is where I'm loosing all my pressure. Now I did some research and I found with an injector seal kit you get the o-rings for the fuel rail to injectors, seals for the injectors to the manifold and also four plactic things, I don't have those and I'm guessing I probably need them, can somebody tell me what those are for?

Thanks

I know exactly what you are talking about. Your best bet is to take an injector into a part zone and see if you order some new ones. Because there are new ones. My mitsu ones fit nice and snug on that but one was lost in the process of rebuilding my engine. I tried to find the mitsu replacemenets but no one had them so I actually used the spacers for a toyota celica and they worked great. If I'm not mistaken this was a relatively cheap part.

Those seals are part of what keps the injectors stable in the manifold so they are definately needed.

Thanks for your help guys, I realized the rubbers I was missing when I got home so I just took them of old non-turbo injectors. I threw those seals over the injectors and they worked great! no leaks! also found a pin hole leak in my intercooler pipe. fixed that up with so JB weld and I was ready to boost! Holy Sh!t that car is now fast!!! I'm only running 8 psi of boost, making no knock what so ever and I can easily non keep up with my tsi buddies! If your not careful you can light the tires through the first 3 gears!! If you step on it in second gear going about 40kmph, once the boost builds my tires light up! haha I need wider tires now!! I LOVE BOOST!

Are you guys talking about the fuel injector grommets? Some of mine are pretty torn up and I'm hoping that's the cause of my intermittent rich misfire in drive with no throttle. I've already replaced the o-rings, put rubbing alcohol in the tank in case of excessive water and changed the FPR with no change(couldn't afford a fuel pressure tester at the time). It's either that or one of the injectors.:frown:

Ya it turns out I forgot to install the grommets between the rail and the injectors. without these there or maybe in your case, torn, the injectors press too far into the fuel rail. this causes the injectors to not press firmly into the intake manifold and causes a major vaccuum/boost leak. If those grommets are causing a bit of a vaccuum leak it shouldnt cause a rich misfire. Correct me if im wrong someone, but you would be running lean. Can you elaborate a bit on the problem? really when you let off the gas, your car should get fuel cut inorder to drop the rpms because the idle switch should be grounded. Unless your idle switch isnt adjusted right and its causing fuel to still be injected with not enough air for complete combustion. The idle switch is the single wire sensor that is located right on the back of the throttle body. Unplug it and test to make sure it gets ground when the gas pedal is not pressed at all. let me know what you find

I'm not sure I would use running alcohol, that stuff is at least 10% water itself, and up to 30%. The drygas type products are usually straight alchohol.

Ya it turns out I forgot to install the grommets between the rail and the injectors. without these there or maybe in your case, torn, the injectors press too far into the fuel rail. this causes the injectors to not press firmly into the intake manifold and causes a major vaccuum/boost leak. If those grommets are causing a bit of a vaccuum leak it shouldnt cause a rich misfire. Correct me if im wrong someone, but you would be running lean. Can you elaborate a bit on the problem? really when you let off the gas, your car should get fuel cut inorder to drop the rpms because the idle switch should be grounded. Unless your idle switch isnt adjusted right and its causing fuel to still be injected with not enough air for complete combustion. The idle switch is the single wire sensor that is located right on the back of the throttle body. Unplug it and test to make sure it gets ground when the gas pedal is not pressed at all. let me know what you find
Well since you want elaboration this might take a while as I have multiple problems.:cwm27:

I also have an idle surge problem. I've tested all the vacuum lines and I had to replace the ISC as well. I've tested the TPS which works fine and I had to replace the oxygen sensor. I've tested the MAF as well as the resistance of the fuel injectors and changed the O-rings on them. I swapped the idle switch with a spare and no change. So perhaps it's out of adjustment, but it's not connected.:iceslolan When it is connected I can hear it make a noise and sometimes do some minor surging(in drive) when the throttle is not pressed.

So what you're telling me is if I'm lucky all I need to do is adjust the idle switch and change the injector grommets. If that doesn't work I still have a few more options left though. Once I get it running right it's back to autocross I go to break something!:smokin:

I busted a brake line last time.:evillol:

Kevin, I'm glad to see you still post here. My friend said the 70% stuff would be ok but if the problem persists past the grommets I suppose I'll buy the real stuff. Doesn't Wal-Mart sell 99% percent rubbing alcohol though?

If I can get my car running right and in good shape I'll consider myself ready to buy a GSX.:)

hmm well when the idle switch isnt connected the computer doesnt know when you want to idle and then it lets the engine run at any rpm. When the switch is triggered (when throttle is closed) the ecu tries to drop the idle but if there is to much air coming in from wherever (bad ISC, bad FIAV, vaccuum leak) it causes a visious cycle of fuel cut then injection, this causes the idle to bounce up and down. I know there's a little more to it but thats the just of it. Thats why when you have it disconnected you don't get idle surge. What may be ur problem is when you changed the idle switch you man have over tightened it causing it to actually open the throttle plate a bit at idle. This would definitely causes idle surge. The correct way to set the switch is as follows

Firstly make sure the throttle cable has a slight bit of slack, if this is holding the plate open thats another cause of idle surge.
-loosen the jam nut on the idle switch then back the switch out until throttle plate fully closes
-connect a digital volt meter, one lead to the idle switch pin, the other lead to a good ground
-screw the switch clockwise until the meter registers continuity (basically until the switch is triggered).
-turn the idle switch in 15/16 of a turn more from the point were continuity was detected.
-hold idle position switch while tightening jam nut to ensure it doesnt move
-adjust throttle cable again to ensure a bit of slack

let us know how you make out

Kevin, I'm glad to see you still post here. My friend said the 70% stuff would be ok but if the problem persists past the grommets I suppose I'll buy the real stuff. Doesn't Wal-Mart sell 99% percent rubbing alcohol though?

Methanol would also work..............any "ol" will work, methanol, ethanol, propanol, butanol, pentanol, hexanol - all of them are versions of alcohol. You just want to break up large concentrations of water. Water and alcohol mix, while water and gas don't. Don't bother with the 70% rubbing alcohol. The best way to get rid of water in the tank, is prolly to siphon it and get some good gas in there along with some "ol".

Get some ethanol (grain alcohol), but don't put it in the car....drink it and you won't care about the water in your tank. :icon16: J/K

So I just did the idle switch adjustment and the throttle plate was cracked open a bit. So, I think that'll take care of that. My idle switch connector is about to have the wire disconnect from it though. I'm gonna find a junkyard one and put in some extra wire because there really isn't enough slack in the wire and that's why it's about to break. Also, I looked at the grommets again and they are totally fucked. Gonna have to call the dealer for that...

The guy that owned the car before me apparently had no maintenance schedule whatsoever.:disappoin

If this works out it'll be the first time that my car has run perfectly since I bought it in a little under two years. Thanks for your help guys, I'll keep you updated. You've been quite a bit more helpful than DSMtalk was.:smooch:

Ok, so the improperly adjusted idle switch was the cause of my idle problems. Now, on to the fuel woes.

So, I went to a really cool junkyard with my friend and picked up some injectors for my car for $1 each.:grinyes: The grommets on those injectors were in good shape. I kept trying to attach the fuel rail but it didn't want to go and something told me things weren't right with the angle on the bolts and all. Well, I finally figured out that those plastic spacers are for between the fuel rail and the head.:rofl: I don't know if those were on the car when I got it or not but at least I finally figured it out. Should've looked at the DSM manual more closely. Oh well, can't change the past.

So, getting everything in order and getting the car running it misses and one of the injectors appears to be leaking. I take the fuel rail off and apparently the old o-ring failed so I swap it with one of my many injectors.:p So it appears to run fine so I take it for the 2.5 hour trip back to my house. It still run fine when the accelerator is pressed and a lot of the time when it's not pressed and just coasting. Thing is, it still misses like a mofo when it's stopped and in drive. I'm hoping this is just fuel fouled plugs. I'll change them in a bit. If not what could be some causes of this?

truely could be a 100 things! you said it only misses when in drive at idle right? is it fine in park? reason I ask is when the car is put into drive it creates a bit of a load on the engine due to the pressure in the torque converter. If you have a weak spark it could cause this problem. I would definitely do plugs! that would be the first thing i'd try. They seem to foul quite regularily in our cars. Since your a non turbo make sure you get the NGK BPR6ES-11 (11 stands for 1.1mm gap). theyre dirt cheap and work great. if that doesnt work look at your plug wires. If they are old or have never been replaced, I'd replace that with a nice set. They range about 30-40$ for a nice set. let us know how you make out

Well, I got new plugs but it still does the same thing but it feels "stronger". You know, it's the same but I can tell I have more spark.:uhoh:

It does it in park too just not as easily. I bumped up the idle speed more but that doesn't really help. Now I'm at 1200rpm idle and 800rpm in drive, 750rpm in drive with the radiator fan on. These speeds shouldn't cause bad missing and even sometimes stalling right? Could a leaky injector be the cause? How about the ECU? With the black smoke and the missing that seems to be pretty much all I can think of that's left to check. Keep in mind I have already checked injector resistance and the coil pack. New NGK plugs and wires as well. The CEL comes stays on for longer than the other lights after I start it. Like longer than it used to.

Also, my timing belt is making me paranoid. Let me just post this to see if I can clear that up. I set the timing myself and let it sit for a day or two and turned the motor over at least 8 times(2 revs per time) over that time period. Since the motor was installed it only has about 4.5k on it.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k240/firesdoom/jul2120.jpg

It just seems like it was tighter when I set it...you know...like prom night.:rofl:

By the way, I gapped the plugs at .044 inches because they gave me what appears to be fucking turbo plugs. I was looking at the Haynes manual at the time but my DSM manual says gap them at .39 to .43 inches. Perhaps I gapped them a little too far? Oh course I know this isn't the problem but I'll try the redundant shit all day if it gives me piece of mind. Since I have more injectors maybe I'll start playing musical chairs with those too. Oh yeah, I just replaced the spark plug well gaskets on my valve cover because a little bit of oil was getting through.

So, give me some more suggestions to my DSM fucking nightmare.

It just seems like it was tighter when I set it...you know...like prom night.:rofl:




BWAHAHA funniest thing I've heard in a while :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

ok now that I'm done laughing, have you tried resetting the ECU?

ok now that I'm done laughing, have you tried resetting the ECU?
Do you mean disconnecting the battery negative cable for awhile or something more involved?

yes, if you've already done that, try borrowing another air metering system, sorry I don't know what the 1g NT's use, and see if thats the problem.

yes, if you've already done that, try borrowing another air metering system, sorry I don't know what the 1g NT's use, and see if thats the problem.
You mean the MAS right? I've swapped so many of those when I thought mine was busted but I had my mulitmeter on the wrong setting.:grinno:

I got one for $5 at the junkyard(that's right $5 fuckers:grinyes:) but when I hooked it up my car wouldn't start! The pin area is dirty and needs cleaning. I don't suppose rubbing alcohol and some q-tips will make that work huh? Oh, does the MAS always make a loud hissing noise? That's what my current one does and I can't remember if it always made that noise. It's pretty loud though.:frown:

Well you did your ignition thats good, as for that other mas, rubbing alcohol will definitely work for ya, contact cleaner is best but alcohol will work. By any chance is your current mas hacked? meaning lower honey comb removed? When I removed that on my car it idled major lean and causes a really shitty idle. if you look at the mas you should see 2 honey combs on it.

As for your timing belt, as long as it was in spec when you set it and the auto tensioner is relatively new, don't worry about it. I think my belt has that much play in it as well.

Well you did your ignition thats good, as for that other mas, rubbing alcohol will definitely work for ya, contact cleaner is best but alcohol will work. By any chance is your current mas hacked? meaning lower honey comb removed? When I removed that on my car it idled major lean and causes a really shitty idle. if you look at the mas you should see 2 honey combs on it.

As for your timing belt, as long as it was in spec when you set it and the auto tensioner is relatively new, don't worry about it. I think my belt has that much play in it as well.
No my MAS isn't hacked as far as I can tell. The previous owner couldn't even maintain the car so I doubt he hacked it. I hope I can get this other MAS to work because that will definitely help with the problem.

So I'm thinking it's either MAS, a leaky injector, too much water in the gas, or a bad ECU. Can anyone think of anything I missed that I haven't checked yet?

Today I checked continuity on my MAS just to make sure. Everything appears fine. It's too bad you can only check 1/3 of the sensors anyway.

My spare MAS has dirt beyond the terminals of it. I'm going to have to desolder the MAS and clean the printed circuit board inside of it because it might have dirt on it. I hope I can salvage it.

Also, the car backfires very seldomly. It only happens when cruising and giving it a little gas. I hope someone can help me here.

I'm gonna keep updating this until I fix the problem.:p

well I hope that mas fixes your problem. I wonder though if you may have a similar problem to what I'm battling right now. every now and then (like once every couple weeks) I feel the car kind of jolt a couple times when cruising then it goes away. It through a saved C.E.L which was a code 44. coil pack or power transistor. I replaced my power transistor and the coil pack 'tested' fine but I still have the problem. You should try to pull a code yourself some time. its very easy. when the ignition on hook a 'Analog' volt meter up to the top left (positive) and bottom right pin (negative) on the OBD port. if there is no code the computer will just sweep back and forth if there is a code it will give you a series of long then short sweeps. These will constantly cycle. count the long sweeps then the short sweeps before it restarts then let us know. also if you cleared your computer recently you might have to drive it a bit to get the code back. hope that made sense haha

well I hope that mas fixes your problem. I wonder though if you may have a similar problem to what I'm battling right now. every now and then (like once every couple weeks) I feel the car kind of jolt a couple times when cruising then it goes away. It through a saved C.E.L which was a code 44. coil pack or power transistor. I replaced my power transistor and the coil pack 'tested' fine but I still have the problem. You should try to pull a code yourself some time. its very easy. when the ignition on hook a 'Analog' volt meter up to the top left (positive) and bottom right pin (negative) on the OBD port. if there is no code the computer will just sweep back and forth if there is a code it will give you a series of long then short sweeps. These will constantly cycle. count the long sweeps then the short sweeps before it restarts then let us know. also if you cleared your computer recently you might have to drive it a bit to get the code back. hope that made sense haha
I've checked my trouble codes many times. I wish I was still throwing codes because then I would know what's wrong with it.:uhoh:

After I get that MAS cleaned I think I'll swap my coil pack out with the spare. It tested fine but I'm running out of options. Probably gonna pull my ECU too.:)

Dude don't you know you've got to drill the head from behind.It could be quite painfull though.

07-25-2006 10:09 PM
brokenplastic Dude don't you know you've got to drill the head from behind.It could be quite painfull though.


Drill the head from behind? to change the coil pack?.... I'm lost

lol no

Its kind've a inside joke between firesdoom and I(know eachother irl), this dude at work says it to confuse the hell out of people. Plus it has homo undertones to it.

I tell a friend about the forum and he hijacks the thread.:nono:

I re-gapped my spark plugs and still no change, I gapped them a little closer. I checked the TPS and apparently I'm not getting 5v like I'm supposed to on two of the terminals of the harness side connector. Terminal 1 is good but the other two are no good. I'm gonna have to go chase some wires around for a while. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Dude have fun chasing wires. Wire chasing sucks ass, I've found the fucked wire on my saturn's lights, but i've had enough and am going to have someone else fix it.