Supercharger Vs Turbo
Pimpin Yoda
08-01-2002, 03:54 PM
Which would be better for a engine supercharger or turbo?? **H22a**
Polygon
08-01-2002, 05:19 PM
Each has their pros and cons. I personally prefer the turbo setup and I always will.
Supercharger:
Pros:
1. Cheap. There are fewer parts involved than in a turbo setup.
2. Easy to install. They are called bolt ons for a reason. This also helps them be less expensive than turbo setups.
3. Instant power. Since the supercharger is belt driven anytime you push the gas it is boosting. You don't have to deal with spool up time like with a turbo setup.
Cons:
1. Power robbing. Since it is belt driven this means it runs off the engine. It takes a little power to make power. This is a very small amount.
2. Gas mileage. You can expect a big hit in gas mileage, since the supercharger is boosting whenever you push the gas. It doesn’t matter if you are accelerating or cruising it is boosting, thus using more fuel.
Turbocharger:
Pros:
1. Gas mileage. You can keep good gas mileage with a turbo since when you are accelerating normally it uses very little gas and boosts very little and when you are cruising it is sucking in air and not boosting at all letting you retain good gas mileage.
2. More power. Since the turbo is driven off of the exhaust you get more power since it is only working with the engine and not working off it.
Cons:
1. Cost. Turbo setups can be ore expensive depending on how much boost you plan to run and because they are harder to install than a supercharger.
2. Turbo lag. You do get some turbo lag off the line and the turbo can be set up to spool at different RPMs. There are now lighter impellers and VNT turbos which greatly reduce lag and with nitrous oxide you can eliminate it completely.
I would say that it all really depends on the application. If you are going to run a 4cyl or 6cyl engine turbo is your best option. I would rather use a supercharger "blower" on V8 and larger displacement engines. Small displacement = turbo large displacement = super.
Supercharger:
Pros:
1. Cheap. There are fewer parts involved than in a turbo setup.
2. Easy to install. They are called bolt ons for a reason. This also helps them be less expensive than turbo setups.
3. Instant power. Since the supercharger is belt driven anytime you push the gas it is boosting. You don't have to deal with spool up time like with a turbo setup.
Cons:
1. Power robbing. Since it is belt driven this means it runs off the engine. It takes a little power to make power. This is a very small amount.
2. Gas mileage. You can expect a big hit in gas mileage, since the supercharger is boosting whenever you push the gas. It doesn’t matter if you are accelerating or cruising it is boosting, thus using more fuel.
Turbocharger:
Pros:
1. Gas mileage. You can keep good gas mileage with a turbo since when you are accelerating normally it uses very little gas and boosts very little and when you are cruising it is sucking in air and not boosting at all letting you retain good gas mileage.
2. More power. Since the turbo is driven off of the exhaust you get more power since it is only working with the engine and not working off it.
Cons:
1. Cost. Turbo setups can be ore expensive depending on how much boost you plan to run and because they are harder to install than a supercharger.
2. Turbo lag. You do get some turbo lag off the line and the turbo can be set up to spool at different RPMs. There are now lighter impellers and VNT turbos which greatly reduce lag and with nitrous oxide you can eliminate it completely.
I would say that it all really depends on the application. If you are going to run a 4cyl or 6cyl engine turbo is your best option. I would rather use a supercharger "blower" on V8 and larger displacement engines. Small displacement = turbo large displacement = super.
GSteg
08-01-2002, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Polygon
Each has their pros and cons. I personally prefer the turbo setup and I always will.
Supercharger:
Pros:
3. Instant power. Since the supercharger is belt driven anytime you push the gas it is boosting. You don't have to deal with spool up time like with a turbo setup.
except for the Vortech supercharger which makes its power NEAR, and i do mean near, the redline. no instant power here...:)
Each has their pros and cons. I personally prefer the turbo setup and I always will.
Supercharger:
Pros:
3. Instant power. Since the supercharger is belt driven anytime you push the gas it is boosting. You don't have to deal with spool up time like with a turbo setup.
except for the Vortech supercharger which makes its power NEAR, and i do mean near, the redline. no instant power here...:)
Polygon
08-02-2002, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by GSteg
except for the Vortech supercharger which makes its power NEAR, and i do mean near, the redline. no instant power here...:)
Really? This is quite interesting to say the least.
except for the Vortech supercharger which makes its power NEAR, and i do mean near, the redline. no instant power here...:)
Really? This is quite interesting to say the least.
Grendel
08-02-2002, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by Polygon
I would say that it all really depends on the application. If you are going to run a 4cyl or 6cyl engine turbo is your best option. I would rather use a supercharger "blower" on V8 and larger displacement engines. Small displacement = turbo large displacement = super.
Very detailed post... looks like you covered everything :)
Also should point out that turbos usually can run A LOT more boost than superchargers... don't most superchargers only put on like 8 psi... something like that?
Oh, and I would rather throw a big single, or twin turbos on a V8... just look at that Lingenfelter Corvette... Amazing :D
-Grendel
I would say that it all really depends on the application. If you are going to run a 4cyl or 6cyl engine turbo is your best option. I would rather use a supercharger "blower" on V8 and larger displacement engines. Small displacement = turbo large displacement = super.
Very detailed post... looks like you covered everything :)
Also should point out that turbos usually can run A LOT more boost than superchargers... don't most superchargers only put on like 8 psi... something like that?
Oh, and I would rather throw a big single, or twin turbos on a V8... just look at that Lingenfelter Corvette... Amazing :D
-Grendel
1320B4U
08-02-2002, 12:53 AM
Supercharger cheaper than Turbo? Maybe on a big V8. How much is a Jackson SC for a Civic, like $3000+. I know Greddy has civic turbo kits for $2000. And if you know much about turbo setups, you could make your own for a hella of a lot cheaper.
ACCSlvCivic
08-08-2002, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by Polygon
Supercharger:
2. Gas mileage. You can expect a big hit in gas mileage, since the supercharger is boosting whenever you push the gas. It doesn’t matter if you are accelerating or cruising it is boosting, thus using more fuel.
My friend has a 2000 civic SI with an endyn blower. it's a 12lb pully, but the belt slips to around 7 or 8 psi. i ask him about his gas milage and he said that it really isn't much differnt than it was before the blower as long as he is driving sain... if you are on it -all- the time and take it to vtec every run of course your gas milage is going to drop noticably, but if you drive like a normal person and only get on it when racing or getting onto the highway your gass milage will not suffer very much.
one con that you didn't mention that i already sort of mention was sometimes the belt on a supercharger will slip. i would say at least 75% of the people i know with blowers on their cars have problems with their belt slipping. just food for thought
Originally posted by Polygon
I would say that it all really depends on the application. If you are going to run a 4cyl or 6cyl engine turbo is your best option. I would rather use a supercharger "blower" on V8 and larger displacement engines. Small displacement = turbo large displacement = super.
As a general statement what you said is true, but you also have to look at a couple more factors than just how much displacement the motor has. you have to look at what the motor can take and where it needs power. H22s (the motor the orignal poster has) are not known for taking lots of boost very well; they are, however, very strong when vtec kicks. even though an h22 is a I4, it doesn't really suffer from poor high end response. My friend Guy with a JRSCed lude decimates lightly modded LS1s on the highway (when his clutch wasn't slipping at least). a turbo would add high end power to that car, but it needs more help getting to vtec imho. for another motor such as a B18B or a b20 i'd say turbo all the way. both of those motors pull very nicely from 2000-5000rpms, but they taper off after that.. with a turbo that kicks in between 3000 and 4000 rpms and boosts strong up to redline you will be able to optimise your powerband. putting a blower on a b18b or a b20 would be retarded since you've already got a torquey motor with plenty of midrange power. Putting a vtec head on either of those motors would totally change what you need. when it comes to a b16 or a b18c it's debatable what is better; both motors have reasonable power through their entire rev range. Vtec helps these motors quite a bit; however it is not as insain as an h22. I personally am a turbo man when it comes to those two motors since a turbo has more versatility, but one could easily argue how valueable power on the low end could be. When Kevin (my friend with the endyn blower on his SI) hangs with TAs on the highway, i can't help but have faith in the power of a blower. In the end it's going to be personal pref.
sorry for long post...
Supercharger:
2. Gas mileage. You can expect a big hit in gas mileage, since the supercharger is boosting whenever you push the gas. It doesn’t matter if you are accelerating or cruising it is boosting, thus using more fuel.
My friend has a 2000 civic SI with an endyn blower. it's a 12lb pully, but the belt slips to around 7 or 8 psi. i ask him about his gas milage and he said that it really isn't much differnt than it was before the blower as long as he is driving sain... if you are on it -all- the time and take it to vtec every run of course your gas milage is going to drop noticably, but if you drive like a normal person and only get on it when racing or getting onto the highway your gass milage will not suffer very much.
one con that you didn't mention that i already sort of mention was sometimes the belt on a supercharger will slip. i would say at least 75% of the people i know with blowers on their cars have problems with their belt slipping. just food for thought
Originally posted by Polygon
I would say that it all really depends on the application. If you are going to run a 4cyl or 6cyl engine turbo is your best option. I would rather use a supercharger "blower" on V8 and larger displacement engines. Small displacement = turbo large displacement = super.
As a general statement what you said is true, but you also have to look at a couple more factors than just how much displacement the motor has. you have to look at what the motor can take and where it needs power. H22s (the motor the orignal poster has) are not known for taking lots of boost very well; they are, however, very strong when vtec kicks. even though an h22 is a I4, it doesn't really suffer from poor high end response. My friend Guy with a JRSCed lude decimates lightly modded LS1s on the highway (when his clutch wasn't slipping at least). a turbo would add high end power to that car, but it needs more help getting to vtec imho. for another motor such as a B18B or a b20 i'd say turbo all the way. both of those motors pull very nicely from 2000-5000rpms, but they taper off after that.. with a turbo that kicks in between 3000 and 4000 rpms and boosts strong up to redline you will be able to optimise your powerband. putting a blower on a b18b or a b20 would be retarded since you've already got a torquey motor with plenty of midrange power. Putting a vtec head on either of those motors would totally change what you need. when it comes to a b16 or a b18c it's debatable what is better; both motors have reasonable power through their entire rev range. Vtec helps these motors quite a bit; however it is not as insain as an h22. I personally am a turbo man when it comes to those two motors since a turbo has more versatility, but one could easily argue how valueable power on the low end could be. When Kevin (my friend with the endyn blower on his SI) hangs with TAs on the highway, i can't help but have faith in the power of a blower. In the end it's going to be personal pref.
sorry for long post...
ACCSlvCivic
08-08-2002, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by GSteg
except for the Vortech supercharger which makes its power NEAR, and i do mean near, the redline. no instant power here...:)
A Vortech supercharger is a centrifigal (sp?) supercharger. what that basically means is it has a turbine that spins up to make the power. That turbine isn't powered by exhaust like a turbo though, it is belt driven. even though the vortech superchargers put out really nice peak numbers, they really aren't as rightious as their max outputs show. since they suffer from the same lag that a turbo does, i see no reason not to just go ahead and get a turbo... not only do turbos have adjustable boost in their favor, but they also do not put any parasitic drag on the motor like a supercharger does.
hope that makes sense :)
except for the Vortech supercharger which makes its power NEAR, and i do mean near, the redline. no instant power here...:)
A Vortech supercharger is a centrifigal (sp?) supercharger. what that basically means is it has a turbine that spins up to make the power. That turbine isn't powered by exhaust like a turbo though, it is belt driven. even though the vortech superchargers put out really nice peak numbers, they really aren't as rightious as their max outputs show. since they suffer from the same lag that a turbo does, i see no reason not to just go ahead and get a turbo... not only do turbos have adjustable boost in their favor, but they also do not put any parasitic drag on the motor like a supercharger does.
hope that makes sense :)
GSteg
08-08-2002, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by ACCSlvCivic
A Vortech supercharger is a centrifigal (sp?) supercharger. what that basically means is it has a turbine that spins up to make the power. That turbine isn't powered by exhaust like a turbo though, it is belt driven. even though the vortech superchargers put out really nice peak numbers, they really aren't as rightious as their max outputs show. since they suffer from the same lag that a turbo does, i see no reason not to just go ahead and get a turbo... not only do turbos have adjustable boost in their favor, but they also do not put any parasitic drag on the motor like a supercharger does.
hope that makes sense :)
its centrifugal:D
numbers is what sells the kit and thats exactly how vortech chargers are sold. not that many people look into the revband when they go shopping for one. For the price the vortech, you're better off with RevHard stage 2 setup.
A Vortech supercharger is a centrifigal (sp?) supercharger. what that basically means is it has a turbine that spins up to make the power. That turbine isn't powered by exhaust like a turbo though, it is belt driven. even though the vortech superchargers put out really nice peak numbers, they really aren't as rightious as their max outputs show. since they suffer from the same lag that a turbo does, i see no reason not to just go ahead and get a turbo... not only do turbos have adjustable boost in their favor, but they also do not put any parasitic drag on the motor like a supercharger does.
hope that makes sense :)
its centrifugal:D
numbers is what sells the kit and thats exactly how vortech chargers are sold. not that many people look into the revband when they go shopping for one. For the price the vortech, you're better off with RevHard stage 2 setup.
NSX-R-SSJ20K
08-08-2002, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by ACCSlvCivic
but it needs more help getting to vtec imho.
how about a new cam set up with just one high rpm cam instead of the VTEC and econ Cam !
the main reason why they have VTEC and econo cams is because the VTEC cam doesn't idle
i vote turbo myself its soo much fun
they start thinking they are winning then the turbo spools up and the boost comes running thru like bulls thru a spanish town .......FREAKING FAST ........then they get pissed cuz they been beat by a Volvo :D
but it needs more help getting to vtec imho.
how about a new cam set up with just one high rpm cam instead of the VTEC and econ Cam !
the main reason why they have VTEC and econo cams is because the VTEC cam doesn't idle
i vote turbo myself its soo much fun
they start thinking they are winning then the turbo spools up and the boost comes running thru like bulls thru a spanish town .......FREAKING FAST ........then they get pissed cuz they been beat by a Volvo :D
ACCSlvCivic
08-08-2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by NSX-R-SSJ20K
how about a new cam set up with just one high rpm cam instead of the VTEC and econ Cam !
the main reason why they have VTEC and econo cams is because the VTEC cam doesn't idle
i vote turbo myself its soo much fun
they start thinking they are winning then the turbo spools up and the boost comes running thru like bulls thru a spanish town .......FREAKING FAST ........then they get pissed cuz they been beat by a Volvo :D
Don't get me wrong.. i'm down the with turbo... Were i actully planning on keeping my civic past maybe a B18c1 swap i would probably end up getting an oversized turbo just for the purpse of messing with people. get something retarded like a t64 and use a little shot of no2 to get spooled if i was having problems. if i were to do that i'd need to go balls out on the block. For the H22 metioned by the original poster, supercharger is what i'd suggest unless he plans on releasing the rights to his left nut in order to build that motor to take the additional boost that makes turbos worth having. As i already said, H22s are not boost friendly; i don't recall exactly how much boost they are good for, but i don't think it was more than about 9 psi. If you're only going to boost 9 psi, why bother with a turbo? with a JRSC the h22 runs very strong as long as your clutch can hold the power. Guy with the JRSCed lude raced my friend with a 93 rx7. mods on the 7 included i/d/e and non seq turbo conv. on a 40 punch the 7 pulled -maybe- a fender on the lude to 140. i think there are vids online, but i don't remember the page.. if you want them i can try to find them. with a new clutch to hold the power, an LSD and some drag radials or better yet, slicks, that lude will be knocking on low 13s, maybe even high 12s with some super badass driving. i know the vtec on that car is insain so why not take advanatage of the all around gain of a blower and get extra power throughout the entire rev range.
About the cams... bear with me if i'm thinking retarded; i've had a very very long last two days... but if i'm thinking right, on a DOHC motor, one cam controls exhaust flow and one cam controls intake flow. i may have missunderstood what you were trying to say, but it sound like you are saying one cam is vtec and one cam is economic. both cams in a DOHC vtec car are vtec cams. vtec is a differnt lobe on the same cam that is more aggressive which gives more top end power. Even though you have two cams, vtec makes it seem as if you have four since on the low end the cam is very tame and fuel economic (and also idles very nicely), but on the top end when vtec kicks, the cam is more aggressive. I am all for getting a differnt cams that have a more aggressive vtec lobe; however, unless you don't plan on driving your car daily, getting non-vtec cams (meaning you'd have to disable vtec which is a whole other task) that are very aggressive doesn't seem economical or logical. Your gas milage will likely drop, your idle would suck, and most of all, if you already had vtec you could have gotten the same top end gains by just getting a pair of more aggressive vtec cams and still kept your low end goodness. So to answer your thought: if you already have a vtec motor, rather than getting a pair of agressive non-vtec cams, unless you plan on going all out race (meaning big turbo pushing some gawdaweful psi), you are better off to get more agressive cams which takes advanatage of your vtec.
On a side note: if you have a non-vtec motor such as a ZC, b20, or b18b, putting more agressive cams in makes sense since you don't have the ability to, in effect, change cams in the middle of you powerband. Just be careful not to get a cam that is too aggressive as that will hurt your streetablity by making you idle very rough and drink your gas like crazy (and more likely that not also hurt your low end torque).
Last point on cams/vtec: if you are building a race only car with a fat ass turbo pushing 20+psi, you'll end up being better off disabling vtec since the turbo will more than make up for the valve timing. I believe most drag cars run a very very aggressive cam and just idle like crap. it doesn't really matter since they don't have to be driven more than 200 yards to the starting line and then they can go all out. just some food for thought :smoka:
how about a new cam set up with just one high rpm cam instead of the VTEC and econ Cam !
the main reason why they have VTEC and econo cams is because the VTEC cam doesn't idle
i vote turbo myself its soo much fun
they start thinking they are winning then the turbo spools up and the boost comes running thru like bulls thru a spanish town .......FREAKING FAST ........then they get pissed cuz they been beat by a Volvo :D
Don't get me wrong.. i'm down the with turbo... Were i actully planning on keeping my civic past maybe a B18c1 swap i would probably end up getting an oversized turbo just for the purpse of messing with people. get something retarded like a t64 and use a little shot of no2 to get spooled if i was having problems. if i were to do that i'd need to go balls out on the block. For the H22 metioned by the original poster, supercharger is what i'd suggest unless he plans on releasing the rights to his left nut in order to build that motor to take the additional boost that makes turbos worth having. As i already said, H22s are not boost friendly; i don't recall exactly how much boost they are good for, but i don't think it was more than about 9 psi. If you're only going to boost 9 psi, why bother with a turbo? with a JRSC the h22 runs very strong as long as your clutch can hold the power. Guy with the JRSCed lude raced my friend with a 93 rx7. mods on the 7 included i/d/e and non seq turbo conv. on a 40 punch the 7 pulled -maybe- a fender on the lude to 140. i think there are vids online, but i don't remember the page.. if you want them i can try to find them. with a new clutch to hold the power, an LSD and some drag radials or better yet, slicks, that lude will be knocking on low 13s, maybe even high 12s with some super badass driving. i know the vtec on that car is insain so why not take advanatage of the all around gain of a blower and get extra power throughout the entire rev range.
About the cams... bear with me if i'm thinking retarded; i've had a very very long last two days... but if i'm thinking right, on a DOHC motor, one cam controls exhaust flow and one cam controls intake flow. i may have missunderstood what you were trying to say, but it sound like you are saying one cam is vtec and one cam is economic. both cams in a DOHC vtec car are vtec cams. vtec is a differnt lobe on the same cam that is more aggressive which gives more top end power. Even though you have two cams, vtec makes it seem as if you have four since on the low end the cam is very tame and fuel economic (and also idles very nicely), but on the top end when vtec kicks, the cam is more aggressive. I am all for getting a differnt cams that have a more aggressive vtec lobe; however, unless you don't plan on driving your car daily, getting non-vtec cams (meaning you'd have to disable vtec which is a whole other task) that are very aggressive doesn't seem economical or logical. Your gas milage will likely drop, your idle would suck, and most of all, if you already had vtec you could have gotten the same top end gains by just getting a pair of more aggressive vtec cams and still kept your low end goodness. So to answer your thought: if you already have a vtec motor, rather than getting a pair of agressive non-vtec cams, unless you plan on going all out race (meaning big turbo pushing some gawdaweful psi), you are better off to get more agressive cams which takes advanatage of your vtec.
On a side note: if you have a non-vtec motor such as a ZC, b20, or b18b, putting more agressive cams in makes sense since you don't have the ability to, in effect, change cams in the middle of you powerband. Just be careful not to get a cam that is too aggressive as that will hurt your streetablity by making you idle very rough and drink your gas like crazy (and more likely that not also hurt your low end torque).
Last point on cams/vtec: if you are building a race only car with a fat ass turbo pushing 20+psi, you'll end up being better off disabling vtec since the turbo will more than make up for the valve timing. I believe most drag cars run a very very aggressive cam and just idle like crap. it doesn't really matter since they don't have to be driven more than 200 yards to the starting line and then they can go all out. just some food for thought :smoka:
88_SC_CRX_Si
08-22-2002, 01:47 PM
The main problem with the roots style sc, is the intake temps. Which can exceed a 190+ degrees. Sooo, getting something in there like Water Injection or N2O. Will cool the temps down enough, too where 30-50+ hp can be gained back...
There is a by-pass valve that is built into the charger, soo it's not always in boost per say. Otherwise, my boost gauge must be lying to me...:rolleyes:
The Vortech is nothing more then a turbo driven off the engine, rather then the exhaust... Sooo, your drive line is also getting treated like a turbo's, with the sudden slam of torque. Where as the JR applies torgue smoothly through the power band. So there is no slamming going on, just a bunch of wheel spin... :( hehehe
The learning curve is not so step with a sc, ac compared to a turbo. So blowing a engine becomes a lot less of a risk...
By no means am I slamming turbo's I plan to go so, sometime in the future...:D
"Noth'in like Induction..." ;)
-Ryan-
There is a by-pass valve that is built into the charger, soo it's not always in boost per say. Otherwise, my boost gauge must be lying to me...:rolleyes:
The Vortech is nothing more then a turbo driven off the engine, rather then the exhaust... Sooo, your drive line is also getting treated like a turbo's, with the sudden slam of torque. Where as the JR applies torgue smoothly through the power band. So there is no slamming going on, just a bunch of wheel spin... :( hehehe
The learning curve is not so step with a sc, ac compared to a turbo. So blowing a engine becomes a lot less of a risk...
By no means am I slamming turbo's I plan to go so, sometime in the future...:D
"Noth'in like Induction..." ;)
-Ryan-
Whitey001
08-22-2002, 02:31 PM
Nice posts everybody but whats the biggest turbo i can slap onto a h22:smoker:
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