Serious RS-T Question....

Ok, so I have a $7,000 loan to spend, plus a little extra cash i have saved, and what i'm SERIOUSLY wondering is if I should perform the following mods to my current 1997 RS:

Bottom-End Engine Components
1. Wiseco Forged Pistons - 8.8:1 Compression (turbo) - Standard bore (piston rings included) - $481.52
2. Eagle ESP H-Beam Connecting Rods - $330
3. Clevite 77 H-Series Rod Bearing Set - $49.95
4. Clevite 77 P-Series Main Bearing Set - $49.95
5. ARP Main Stud Kit - $199.95
6. Fel Pro Lower Gasket Set - $39.95

Top-End Engine Components
1. Crower Cams (pair) - Stage 2 - Agressive street use or nitrous/turbo. Idle 1000 to 7000 RPM - $434
2. SBR Stage III 420A Head - 100% Hot Tanked - Fully Pressure Checked - SBR 5 Angle Valve Job - SBR Stage 3 Port Work - New Valve Stem Seals - New Stainless Steel, Undercut Valves - New Valve Guides - Crower Springs and Retainers - Fully Decked Head surface - $1,499

Turbo Kit
1. SBR - Intercooled Kit w/ Fuel Upgrade - $3,695 (see www.slowboyracing.com for details) and this kit cost pretty much exactly what it would to build a kit with the same components on your own, which is why i like it.

Drive Train
1. ACT 2600 Clutch Kit w/ Street Disc - $462

OR get a 97+ GSX and do what I can to it with the extra cash....I was really leaning toward building the sick 420a..but i figured i'd throw it out to the online community.

Thanks.

I say build up the 420a, theres not that many of them out there. If you set up everything right they can put out some serious power. Your set up looks good so far, but I think you need to pay a little more attention to your fuel. Since the motor is built you will probably be running high boost, it seems you have a big budget so you might want to look into a megasquirt fuel system.

Well I guess one main question is do you care about all wheel drive? And you gotta also take into account how much time it will take you to do that. If its a hobby for you then it doesn't matter but if its a labour because you really want a turbo then you gotta decide how much your time is worth. Your upgrades seem good if thats the route you choose to go no problems there I can tell you've done your research. So I guess its really up to you. I like the AWD but I don't want to persuade everyone to get one cause when its time for me to buy another one they'll be none left.

That turbo kit comes with an Apexi S-AFCII, Accell 550cc Injectors and a
Walbro 255 Fuel Pump...that not good enough? I plan on running about 12psi daily, and 20+psi on track night...

Oh, and I see a Quaiffe LSD approaching soon after these mods come into play...other wise AWD is just a heavy waste to me, besides most of my racing will be done from a roll anyways...

Any other opinions or suggestions?

Thanks.

Imagine what $7k puts you at with a 4g63. Even if you sell your car and it costs you an extra $1-2k to get the GSX, you still got $5k to dump into it and make it a monster. It just seems like a waste of money on the 420A. If you want the most power for your money, get the GSX. If you want originality and to do something not many people do and don't care about what it costs vs. what power you make, build up your 420A.

Honestly i'd say got for a gsx. Awd > everything and everyone.

Honestly i'd say got for a gsx. Awd > everything and everyone.

agree

Everything looks good on paper, but can you actually do these mods is the question. I used to want to build up my 420a, then I got a TSI AWD and have a monster motor for it, now I'm back to wondering what to do with my 420a. If I were you, go ahead and build it up, there aren't that many of them out there and you'll have something a little more "out of the norm." Or you could do a 4g63 swap like I'm seriously considering ;)

Thompson, what do you mean, "can you actually do these mods"? Ofcourse I can...with the help of a few friends that is. And how can ANYONE call doing something to make an unlikely/unique engine 4x as powerful as it was stock, a WASTE? of money....wow.

Anyways, for some reason I can't stop thinking about this (obviously, im up at 4:35AM posting still...), but I can't see how you guys figure $7k straight into the 420a and drivetrain isnt going to out perform a GSX with $3-4k tops invested. I mean, isn't a $850 LSD good for any kind of traction in a FWD? and even if I wouldn't beat a AWD in 60-80' I think I could pull hard on him the rest of the 1/4...

I don't know, maybe i'm just being too stubborn to let my "dream" go, and besides, a 350+ whp 420a would be quite unique/friggin' sweet sleeper, and I should think it would satisfy my needs, especially in my location...regardless of if could beat a GSX with the same amount invested or not. There will always be faster cars no matter what I do...

So, FINAL QUESTIONS!!

1. Mid-Top end...what would take it (no AWD bias!): My 420a as listed above w/ $7k in it, or a AWD 4g63t w/ $3k in it.

2. How strong is my (420a) block, and will the stock crank hold-up to these mods?

Thanks.

Oh, and my car KBB's for something like $3k, and a nice '97+ GSX would run right around $7-9k, correct? And my total CASH budget is $7,500 to buy and mod a GSX....meh..

I just asked because there are people that ask about doing these mods and they don't know the first thing about an engine, they would be lucky to change their own oil, sorry if I offended you. And I never said it was a waste of money, in fact I might be building up my own 420a so I don't know where you read that I said it was a waste of money.

Anywho, a modded 4g63t will always outperform a modded 420a with the same amount invested, that's just the way it is. As for your 420a block, it can hold quite a bit of power if built right. Hahn is running 10's on a 420a block and still on the stock head!! If done right, it can be a very strong and very powerful motor.

Yah sorry, I was actually quoting |_eclipse_| about him calling it a waste of money, not you lol.

So, no worries about the block that's good...but what about the crank? Also, about that first "final question" in my last post about the mid-top end perfomance (top speed, and high speed accel.)....any ideas?

I'm not sure about the crank. I know I've seen some performance cranks for the 420a being sold somewhere, but I can't remember where, I'll do some searching in the morning.

About your final question, I don't know if I completely understand what you're asking. If you want to know which will be better at what stages, the AWD will own anything off the line but the 420a will probably be faster in the long run just because of the drivetrain loss (even though it is minimal).

Also, in your first post, I don't see how peiceing together your own turbo kit would cost anything NEAR as much as the kit you posted. I could probably find a damn good setup for roughly $1500-$2k. It all depends on where you look and what you're looking for, but $3700 for a turbo kit is fucking insane, I don't care if you're Dave Buschur, that's still too much. Alot of that kit is just a bunch of their stuff put together in addition with some others, all of which are brand new and you are paying top dollar for. Their "Intercooled Kit" just has their intercooler added on which is like $800, about $500 too much for a good intercooler. There are others too, that's just a prime example.

Honestly, I picked every single specific part that SBR had listed for that kit, and searched around a little on each of them and the price really did come out within a couple hundred dollars of my pieced together one, and theirs. Now the kit included a rather large FMIC, 550cc injectors, and S-AFCII. Or maybe I just looked in the wrong places for parts...I don't know. I know I have a thing for buying used parts though...some things are OK but other stuff....i'm weird about, I can get over that though.

...and yes that's what I was getting at about the whole mid-top end range, I have no doubts about AWD ripping me a new asshole off the line, and possibly keeping a few car lengths on me for maybe an 1/8 mile before I pulled on him if not passed him completely, all depending on who im racing.

So bottom line...I think i'll build me one hell of a 420a :icon16: then once that loan is paid off...take out a $12k one and THEN hit up the whole AWD world.

I guess my view on cars is to mod it while youve got it, and move on...

Thanks for all your help thompson, and I would still really like for others to post what they think about it...

Also, one last thing.....if someone could help me piece together the strong kind of turbo kit i'm looking for for a reasonable price...i'm pretty much an idiot when it comes to knowing what new parts are worth, whats a steal, and whats a rip off :screwy: ...so if ANYONE wants to help me on that one...feel free.

My E-Mail is [email protected]

I was planning on doing that tomorrow anyways to show you the price difference. It may be a big difference (which I'm betting on) or it may not be and it also depends on how much work you want to put into it yourself. I know that I could make a turbo manifold instead of spending $200 on one that would work just the same. There's an interesting link on www.2gnt.com about a DIY turbo kit but the damn site isn't working right now. It's under the tech articles if you get it to work. But enough of this, I need to get at least 4 hours of sleep before work. :)

Ok, I better sleep some too, but just get on AIM sometime tomorrow...i'll be online random times of the day. I'll just check if to see if you're on when I am. It would be alot easier to communicate in IM's than in a forum....

G'night then.:sleeping:

Good luck on your project. You seem like you know a lot about what you are doing, a SAFC only fools the ECU into changing how much fuel to add/subtract. A megasquirt fuel system is a standalone fuel system that you build yourself. You can adjust your fuel, and you can adjust your ignition timing. I would highly recommend that you research your fuel system a little bit more, because if you are going to run 20+psi I dont think a SAFC is going to cut it.

I don't have AIM. I guess I could download it but everyone I know uses MSN.

Hey i just wanted to tack on that SBR isn't really giving you that great a deal with buying their package deal. They just sell you more stuff. I think if you look around you can find better deals. I got 550's and safc2 for 300 bucks I don't know how much they are charging but its gonna be mroe than that. So what else can I say but don't just buy stuff cause its convenient you can get those parts anywhere (especially intercoolers) so don't do anything rash.
By the way thanks ricer for safc2 and injectors ;)

Yah, I see what you guys mean about finding slightly used parts and what not, I just did a mild search around for a few parts and easily knocked at least $400-500 off. Def. glad I didn't opt for the pre-assembled kits, which are now (obviously) WAY overpriced....and now I know :iceslolan

As for this Megasquirt stand alone fuel managment thing, its looking good so far, and the price point isn't bad at all either. I'd say i've got another solid 2 months or so left before I can start collecting all the parts.

So substitute S-AFCII for megasquirt, right...anything else major like that I should know? Are 550cc injectors going to be adequate for this application? If 550's are ify, it couldnt hurt anything to hop to 650's right?

Thanks.

:eek7:

Sorry bro, I dont even see how theres a question. Sell that 420a shit and buy yourself a GST/GSX. No question about it. As a matter of fact, when you could buy an already turbo'd car, turboing an NT is a waste of time and most of all money IMO. Heres my take on the whole thing.

it were me, your RS would be on autotrader.com, cars.com, dsmtuners.com/classifieds, and in the paper by tomorrow morning and I would be hunting for a 1g AWD. Depending on the shape, miles, and mods of the RS you could get what like 4-5k for it? Then you would have 11-12 THOUSAND DOLLARS to build a car with. You could have a 1g AWD for like $1000-$2000 and still have $9,000-$10,000 to put into it. Know where 10 grand will get you in a AWD DSM? Probably pretty deep into the 10's if you did it right. Or you could probably find a decent 95 GSX for like 4-5k and still have lots to build it with.

If you want to stay FWD, get a GST. I think AWD is way better than FWD, but to each his own. Who the fuck races from a roll anyway? LSD or not, the FWD will get its ass hole gapped by the AWD.

Whether you want AWD or FWD, I say go 4g63. I under no circumstances (especially a $7,000 loan) would I build a 420a. If you dumped the 7 g's into the RS you would have a much slower car than if you took that money, sold your car, bought a 4g63 DSM, and built it. 420a's can be built, I know a guy that has a 420a neon built as fuck that put like two bus lengths on a 300whp subaru from 0-120, but believe me man, he is not running 550cc injectors and a SAFC (actually he is running megasquirt, needs a tune bad but still is fast as hell).

If you run megasquirt you can run any size injectors you want. You should be able to get to a good start building the motor and have most of the major components that you need. Keep us updated on how everything is going.

Dont let anyone convince you not to build your car. It your money and it your decision on what you want to do. If you want to build the 420a, then build the hell out of it and make it fast as shit.

Yeah dude, by all means, if you want to build the 420a go for it. I wouldnt pick any other NT to turbo. But you could have a MUCH faster car for a lot less going to 4g63 route. If you got a 6 bolt 4g63, the bottom end could take well over 400hp, so you really wouldnt even need to build it and you could do some pretty things like rims or suspension. Plus with the 4g63 you can run DSMlink. What more persuation could you possibly need? ;) Either way, have fun and post pics/timeslips.

Lol yah, but regardless of persuasive arguments, and factual information about the AWD...i'm pretty dead set on this 420a thing. Hey, at least i'll have a pretty major weight advantage on AWD's, what like 500lbs or so, what does that translate too...roughly .5 off the E/T? Not too shabby....not to mention the gained traction from a good LSD, and i'm fairly sure i'll nearly make up for my assumingly shitty launch with my mid-top end acceleration...

Oh, and who the fuck races from a roll? Lol I do, I race on the interstate very regularly...actually let me ask this; who the fuck HASN'T/DOSEN'T race from a roll on the street?

SilvrEclipse, what is your input on the MegasquirtII system?

Thanks.


EDIT: Thor, that first post of yours pissed me off for a second or two, I don't even know why it got to me...wording maybe? Then your second post came and chilled it...atleast I got to edit this post before anyone saw it lol, it would have been a real :nutkick: and an assholish post...just letting you know. :rofl:

:lol: Sorry bro, didnt mean to come off as a jackass. It was pretty harshly worded. Looking back at it I did come off a lot meaner than I intended to, sorry for that.

I dont think NT's are really that much heavier than AWDs, I would say maybe like 300 lbs. Thats true though too, you would pull in the higher gears. Sean (the guy with the build 420a neon up here) got launched by the 300whp WRX, but passed him in 2nd gear I think, and just kept running.

I guess I have only raced from a roll once, a 25 mph roll on the main drag here in town. It was against my buddy's 05 Mazda 6. I was driving the Cavy (no talon yet) and needless to say, I got my ass owned. Our town isnt big enough for a highway so everything we do is from a light or flagger with an occasional 20-30 mph roll.

I will talk to Sean sometime about his megasquirt. From what I know, he likes it and I think it was pretty cheap to make. If I were to do a 420a build (or any engine build for that matter), I would stay away from those kits. I think with some shopping around you could save some money. I would definately not get the SBR kit, I think that turbo is pretty small to be running on a built engine, it would have to be to only require 550's, and I dont like SAFC. I can also talk to Sean about where to get parts and stuff, I think he scored some pretty sweet deals on some/all/most of his stuff.

Yah, the more I know about peoples experiences with certain systems and products, the better.

Oh, and one more thing I just started considering was minor weight reduction. I just want to get my weight down a little, seeing as how I don't plan on removing my A/C or stereo system since this will be my dd as well (by the way my spare and jack are already gone).

I was thinking along the lines of just a CF hood and CF fenders, if all else fails i could go for fiberglass fenders, but I really wanted a CF to pull of the paint scheme i've been dreaming about (and it's lighter...) :icon16: /rice.

I figure my stereo puts me in right around 65lb over stock, which isnt a huge deal, but since I don't want to have that dead weight back there, or take out my box/amps every time I go to the track I came up with reducing other parts to get me back around stock weight. Does that make sense?

Opinions?

Thanks.

Hypnotiq, I think you're getting on the right path to doing this thing the right way, you're doing alot of researching and asking alot of questions before just jumping right into it. Alot of people get so excited about modding they jump right in and then say "well now what the hell?" when they blow their engine after 500 miles. As for injectors, the bigger the better and the bigger you go, the more room you'll have for upgrades. Personally, I would go with 650s, but that's just my opinion. Also get the SAFC-II out of your head, if you're going to stuff that much money into the beast, just go with the megasquirt. I think that's all I wanted to say for now.

And Thor damnit, quit brainwashing people with your 1G PROPAGANDA!!!!!!!! :p

Well thanks :D

SAFC-II has BEEN out of my head for awile, I only got the idea of it before I started researching and I didn't know too much about megasquirt...and while im on the megasquirt subject, the more I look at the FAQ's and diagrams, and programming guides, the more I think i'm going to be in trouble. I'm not a very smart tuner (not a dumb one either..) and i'm a little worried about the initial setup and break-in of the whole thing..i'll be fine after I get it going though..

So, how hard is this thing (MegaSquirt) to totally setup/program on a 1-10 scale?

I cant tell you how hard it is to install/setup. I have read some things about it but have never personally used it. I have heard that it is pretty hard to setup if you dont know what you are doing. Have you searched on 2gnt.com, a lot of people on there run this setup and you could probably find some good info. There is also a writeup on that site about how to put a neon tranny into a 2g. Its geared a little higher so that might help you catch some traction.

I'll check into it, thanks.

There is a very very nice write-up on 2gnt.com about installing and tuning with the SAFC-II, check it out.

Taking your shit out for each trip to the track is a good idea. Also, running around a 1/4 tank at the track will reduce some weight. Lighter seats would be a good idea (especially if you have leather) and getting rid of those worthless ass backseats will shave a few pounds for you as well. I dont know about your physical shape, but if you are like me, you can do a little weight reduction on yourself (god I need to start running again). Also, the easiest 100 lbs I lost off of the Cavy was cleaning it. I had soo much shit in there, the car even felt a little more peppy afterward.

I dont know about your physical shape, but if you are like me, you can do a little weight reduction on yourself (god I need to start running again)

Amen to that! The college life definitely takes a toll on ones body. I didn't quite make it to the freshman 15, but I was definitely on the way.

I took on the "Stupid Hoes Fucking With Your Mind" 25, got back down to normal, then just tagged a few more on. As soon as I start running again I should be good. Plus a new start in a new city this fall will be plenty of motivation to lost a few more.

Yeah that's what I thought too, but quickly found out that a new city=new friends=even MORE parties=more weight gaining. :thumbsdow:

Lol, nah i'm in good shape...i'm about 6'1 weighing in around 230lbs, and I run enough already lol. But I do have a feeling that as soon as I graduate high school and stop playing sports im going to end up a fat slob lol.

shiit. I'm 6'1 and 200 pounds and I have a fat belly. All that beer drinking.

Five years in the Marines will definately turn you into an alcoholic. I don't think there is a person that I know that can out drink me.

Lol, well you haven't met me....

6'3" ~205. I used to be around 195, before college I want to be at 180-185. I have a really small frame.

remember when this thread had something to do with cars?

Not really lol....but I did get MOST of my questions answered anyways , so....i'll let it R.I.P now...it was a good thread :frown: lol