lite debate on a race

i'm getting my Z in september if all goes as planned. I have a friend at work and we have gotten into a debate already as to how fast my 350Z will go after i get it broken in. I mentioned to him that i thought my car would give him a pretty good race in the 1/4 mile. he drives a 02 Trans Am WS6 with a few minor mods such as lid, filter, and a borla exhaust. its also a automatic tranny and mine is a manual. he isn't being a smart elec about it just saying he doubts i can give him a good race until i make some modifications. any thoughts on this would be appreciated and i'm new so sorry if i dont have a clue on 1/4 mile cars. also nice to meet you all.

The 350Z 1/4 mile i think is 14.1
Not sure about the 1/4 mile time on 02 Trans Am WS6

thanks, i'll give it a shot after i get it. its all good fun between two buds,and let you know how i did

Aight I know the zero to 60 times on them

350Z 5.4 0-60
Trans Am WS6 5.8 0-60

You should get him.

If it was a stick I think he would own you for sure. C&D (man, the mag guys I swear can not drive though) only got a 14.1 in the 1/4, I can hit that in my Bullitt with ease and a RA TA or SS 'maro creams me. He still might get you with the mods and even if it is an auto.

Hey, so what if he does...your Z will still be a very cool car. It will get more looks since it is new, its not slow by any means, and the build quality I am sure will be very good. A TA is a monster, fun to drive, a great car, but full of quirks. I do not get into the "this brand sucks," thing but I think I am being a realist...bang for the buck and all out perfomance has been the F bodies story for several years. I do not think on the real street or track the first Z's are going to be able to beat 'stangs and such, but like the Honda vert they are a threat and can win against the American cars. Its just on average they will cream the Z.

I think most will be suprised when it comes out.

Everyone said the same thing about a bmw m roaster. And ive seen that car mess up plenty of camaros vettes and mustangs.

That' s because the M roadster is a quick car. It's an honest 13.xx-second quarter mile car.

Man, you oughta get out of your super 350Z fantasy world real quick, because you're gonna get your ass handed to you when you go picking on F-bodies. I don't really like most of them (so don't go thinking I'm totally in their corner), but that doesn't mean that aren't fast as all heck. Like merc50 said, the TA is a monster!

The last Camaros and Firebird/TA's are FAST cars. GM probably wanted them to go out with a bang, and they have succeded. I was at the track a couple weeks ago and my Dad's 2001 6 speed SS ran a 13.92 in 90* heat and 85% humidity. My Dad is NOT a driver either. This was his first time down the strip in FIFTEEN YEARS. That same night he hopped into my brother's 98 SVT Cobra and could only get a 14.62. Both cars are 100% stock.

The SS is a car that C&D drove to a 13.5. These are the very people that drove the 350Z to a 14.1. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you not to bet pink slips if you're in a 350Z.

Originally posted by sportsfan
i'm getting my Z in september if all goes as planned. I have a friend at work and we have gotten into a debate already as to how fast my 350Z will go after i get it broken in. I mentioned to him that i thought my car would give him a pretty good race in the 1/4 mile. he drives a 02 Trans Am WS6 with a few minor mods such as lid, filter, and a borla exhaust. its also a automatic tranny and mine is a manual. he isn't being a smart elec about it just saying he doubts i can give him a good race until i make some modifications. any thoughts on this would be appreciated and i'm new so sorry if i dont have a clue on 1/4 mile cars. also nice to meet you all.

never mind if you lose the quarter mile or not. just take you're friend to a track and leave him for dead round the corners in you're new superb handling Nissan

Wow that SVT is slow. And as for a z28 camaro that will be no problem there not fast you guys gotta get out of your super z28 camaro fantasy
A friend of mine with a ser spec v $18000 with exhaust and intake and headers beat a camaro thats not to impressive for camaro.

And camaro ss 13.9 1/4 isn't far away from 14.1 that will depend on the driver. Everyones making it sound like a total blow out.

And most people around here aren't goin to a 1/4 drag strip there gonna go light ti light and i htink a z will beat a ss.

Totally agree with you Pennzoil GT-R.

Originally posted by zane11
A friend of mine with a ser spec v...

I am done argueing now. From this single comment, I now understand the level that you are on. Have a nice day.

Im not so sure about the track thing Penz...you are probably right but I am concerned about the comments from various mags and net (blah, net sources) about the handling of the car. I wonder if they cut some corners on this? Was it C&D that found it noise heavy...I do not have the mag handy.

i dont have access to any US mags, but the ones over here whop have so far tested the 350 say the opposite to you're mags. they say that corners seem to have been cut on the interior etc. and the extra investment been focused on the chassis and handling aspect. I dont think the US and Europe are getting different specs are they????

OK SpyVO you say whatever you want to make yourself feel better. Maybe the driver in the other car sucked spec v are way lighter and with all that done its over 200 horsepower and he had it REALLy lighted. Say whatever you want no reason to lie here.

Geez, and if you were a true import fan you would know not all of them are perfect cars, many are built here, many share parts/platforms with American cars and so on. That tired old Consumer Reports crap about American cars being so inferior is bogus and you can not back it up. How many freaking small block chevys are on the road still with hundreds of thousands of miles on them...give me a break. Best motor ever built, you can not argue it. Wins more races, used still today, and so on. Also, the thing that shuts most improt guys up real quick is the simple question of "how much did you have to spend on your car to make it as fast as a showroom F body or Mustang?" I got news for you, 15 or 16 in the 1/4 is not fast. The problem with imports has always been the cost of performance. Sure there are fast ones, and many of them are cool and the owners put at lot of love in them, but they have more $$$ in them on average than the kid with an old Fox body stang. Ever been in the car business, do you know what a note lot is? Try putting some of the Japanese cars that have close to 100.000 miles or more on them out on a note sometime. They break, and they cost more to fix, the people who buy those kind of cars are not going to pay to fix them...end of story. Honda and Toyota are really good with miles on them, and guess what...the lowley Neon does fairly well on a note. Any Japanes car that starts with an M is a risk...Mazda's start smokeing real bad around 70,000. Nissan has been plagued with quality issues, and corporate issues for several years. You just keep falling back on a tired argument based on tired old talk. Hmmm, I do not see any Taxi cabs or Cop cars that are imports in the US...do you? Gee, how do they keep those junkers on the road...yeah right, they must be junk.

Hey Penz, have you owned a Skyline are or you just a fan of the team?

well he showed me some slips from national trails raceway 1/4 mile track and a local 1/8 track here in town. the 1/4 he ran a 13:39 and the 1/8 his slip says he ran a 8:86. but thats with a SLP lid, K&N filter, and borla exhaust. he also ordered a 3300 torque converter so he says that will help also. but i can modify mine also and we can still have a lot of fun runnin around town. I bought the car because it looks great, sounds good, and is a blast to ride in. He is a car nut also and thinks the pics of my new Z are awesome. i imagine after me he will be second to drive it. thanks for all your replies and again great to meet you all.

Im a fan of the team and the cars. Im only 17 so an R34 is abit too much for me to afford at the moment. but rest assured, one day i will have my skyline:devil: :D :sun: :smoka:

I am dumbfounded by how much a Skyline costs in some countries. 50,000 USD is a bit on the high side for that car, esp. when you have the 390 HP Cobra running around right now. That being said, if they had sold the GT R 34 in the US and the price was in the mid to high 30,000 (where it should be) range I would have bought one. To me the Skyline is just awsome...something about the look of that car sold me on it. I just can not get why that car never got to the US. If it had and it was cheaper than the BMW's it would have sold big time.

So, do you like any American cars enuff to buy one if you could?

Sportsfan, no matter the outcome that is going to be a sweet ride. I can't remember if you said...what model/level are you getting and what color? I would get the old man one with the leather and stereo in the orange color with the black leather if I was gonna get one.

oh yea sorry about that. i ordered the performance model with the rear spoiler. they were gonna have the car to me in august but backed it into september. silver in color

Originally posted by merc50
I am dumbfounded by how much a Skyline costs in some countries. 50,000 USD is a bit on the high side for that car, esp. when you have the 390 HP Cobra running around right now. That being said, if they had sold the GT R 34 in the US and the price was in the mid to high 30,000 (where it should be) range I would have bought one. To me the Skyline is just awsome...something about the look of that car sold me on it. I just can not get why that car never got to the US. If it had and it was cheaper than the BMW's it would have sold big time.

So, do you like any American cars enuff to buy one if you could?

the R34 has a brillaint chassis (alot down to the electronics), and is fair fast stock. its unbelievably tunable, and (so every1 seems to say) is one of the most fun to drive cars ever. and yep, the looks r just so damn aggresive:D

i would definitely buy one of the older, true muscle cars like 70's vettes and mustangs, but as for modern cars i dunno if i would buy any of them. There is a guy on these forums who has a 98 (i think) black convertible Mustang in his signature that looks nice though. O yeah how could i ever forget the GT40 (even if it did have a British chassis;) :D ;) )

For the money, a base model Z is more than worth its weight in gold. Coming in around $27,000 a buyer can get a 287 hp vehicle that gets up to 60 in 5.4 and runs the 1/4 in 14.1. (C&D). Let me say that again...$27,000. Lets compare it to other sports cars in that price range:

($23,000-$27,000)
Nissan 350Z
Subaru WRX
Toyota MR2
Mazda Miata
Acura RSX Type-S
Mitsubishi Eclipse GTSToyota Celica GT-S

Now lest compare the Z, (according to Car and Driver), by performance:

(0-60)---(1/4 mile)
Nissan 350Z 5.4 14.1
Acura RSX Tpye S 6.3 15.0
Audi TT 6.2 14.7
BMW M Roadster 4.5 13.1
Chevy Camaro Z28 5.2 13.8
Chevy Corvette 4.5 31.1
Ford Stang GT 6.0 14.7
Ford SVT Cobra 4.5 12.9

Blah Blah Blah.....you get the picture.

To make my point, Im going to use the $35,000 SVT Cobra vs. The $27,000 350Z. If I spent $8,000 to modify a Z and make it comparable in price to a SVT it would blow it right off the road. I would imagine that an after market turbo will be made for the car and that would probably put the car right up with a Vette or a SVT Cobra. I promise that single mod wont cost $8,000 either.

In reference to some posts made about Car and Driver and their performance numbers...these people work for Car and Driver for a reason and dont just magically get to test drive cars, these people are professionals.

A stock 350Z could run with most cars on the road, and its Dollar-to-Performance ratio is unmatched.

In response to merc, i dont share your thoughts on price to performance, it doesnt match the numbers i researched. Your comment about foreign cars not being used by police and taxi company's is not relevant to quality at all. The reason that cab companys and law enforcement agencys use american Crown Victorias at present are for 2 reasons: 1.) The government is going to by American, this is the United States, not Japan. 2.) What foreign car is comparable to the Crown Victoria or Chevy Caprice/Impalla in size/price/perfomance? There are none. A base Cown Victoria is essentially a big Taurus with a V-8. Foreign companies have the Maxima, Accord, Camry, Millenia etc. which compete with the Taurus, Lumina etc. Big foreign cars are luxury cars...could you see a Mercedes S500, Lexus LS430, Infiniti Q-45 used as police Cars? Your comment, to be correct, would mean that Cadillacs were being used as cop cars and thats just not the case.

One,

HHH

Well here we have another person who wants to believe that the 350Z will take over the world. Up till this point we've been talking about stock performance, but if you really want to know...

If the 350Z is worth it's weight in gold, then Mustang GT has gotta be platinum. A Mustang GT still comes in a solid $5,000 below the BASE 350Z (27 less hp, yeah, but 28 more ft./lbs. of torque). With that extra cash, you could very easily get it to beat up on a 350Z. You may even be able to get a DEALER INSTALLED FRPP supercharger that wouldn't even void the warranty! And even after you put in your little turbo (have fun turbocharging a motor with 10.3:1 compression, BTW), I'd still question weather or not it could run with a Cobra. At this point, to make that power useable, you'll have to spend more on the handling to take care of that understeering thing... :rolleyes:

And as for the driver comment, let me just say, 'don't even play that card'. Go over corral.net and ask how fast a new stock GT is and you'll hear, "with a good track and weather, 13.8". And they will show you timeslips. THOSE people can drive Mustangs. Believe me, I'm being nice letting you quote 14.7.

But you know what? Like I said to the other guy, I HOPE you get a 350Z. Then YOU'LL get bitch slapped all over the place by every GT, Cobra, Camaro, T/A, Firebird, S2000...

All you guys are talkin about is 1/4 mile times, straight line performance doesnt mean anything. The 350Z will out handle any one of those Mustangs, Camaros etc. you mention.

Gee Mail, right off the bat I have you. Addison Texas for years used Volvo Police cars...local police can buy what they want...your "government" comment in nonsense. At police expos the Japanese companies have showed up, they just never got really considered. Several cab companies in the DFW area tried to experiment with foreign cars when they became limited to the LTD due to the Caprice/Impala going to FWD...the only ones that worked were the same ones they use in Europe...the Mercedes. They cost too much in the US so that got shot down. Police and cab companies do not like FWD. FWD is not a true performance option. FWD is more expensive, anyone who has owned a FWD car knows the front is under stress and wears quicker. Tires go quicker also. They did not hold up to the abuse, pure and simple. Whats that, most imports or FWD, gee...won't make a good cab will it. Overseas companies spend more in upkeep on the fleet where FWD is the norm. In Europe a Mercedes is viewed the same way there as a LTD is here, its a work horse. Many of them are cabs because the have fleet versions and are cheaper overseas. If you read some of the other posts that have come up on this, the comments are relevant due to the fact that someone just kept saying imports were better "just because." So they are relevent. You can not in todays world just blanket imports as better and thats it. As for the Cadillac comment...the Escalade is the same as the Taho more or less the the police use tons of those down here. A Crown Vic a big Taurus, what are you talking about? That is not even close to right...they share nothing. LTD, Vic, Grand Marque, are old platforms like the stang, Taurus Sable have been through 2 or 3 gens.

What kills me is I never bagged on the Z as being "junk" or anything like that, I really like the car. I don't run around saying Honda's suck, but fans of non American cars go into a tired old thing about quality etc. that is not true anymore. Imports are always better...what about KIA?

Times on 01 Bullitt: Motor Trend 14.07, 5.0 mustang got a 13.92, Road and Track 14.7...hey and its cheaper. (and look at the professional mags and how different they are)

Same money, 03 Mustang Mach 1....well into the 12's. Mustang Monthy low mid 12's. The Mach 1 will destroy the Z. The F body RA's and SS's will destroy the Z. (street and strip...track a different story...but how many will do that and that was not what this was all about)

As for your comment for mags, come on...for years people have bench raced and argued about how off the mags can be. I do not recall which mag it was, but they themselves when doing the Cobra R said they were not getting it right that day and that the times were off. The drivers have off days, the climate, location, and everything else messes with it.

If the mag guys are so great, why do they not drive professionaly for a living as big money racers. Some of them know how to toss the car on the track, others are 1/4 mile kings...few if any are good at eveything. Many are not good at anything from the looks of it. I watched a show on Speedvision once and those guys were testing a BMW and I swear I died laughing at them trying to figure out the best way to launch the thing.

Most of the imports you mention do not do the times the American cars do (stock vs stock)...hang out at the track and look at timeslips.

The Z is a street threat, but most of this started with a race comment about it vs. a Ram Air TA on the street. Its not gonna win that race most of the time.

That 13.8 Z28 is the same money you brought up. You can get a Z28 while they were around for 22 to 24 easy. Thats less than the 27. Oh, and if you bring up the "they are gone, no one bought them thing" like others do...try and remember the Z vanished from the US market once also. You think when the Camaro comes back it wont take a huge leap foreward also?

Your mod issue...take the Bullitt and do the same mods as the Z and the Bullitt will win. Its easy with SC's to get in the 400's+. The intake alone is very mod friendly and worked well in different aps in the mags. The new Cobra needs to be compaired to the Turbo Z when it happens.

On the dollar to dollar issue...I just priced up the Z with the good stuff...Brembos etc.. Mid 30's on that, with ttl its going mid high 30's. A base Z is a base Z, a base GT is gonna get close or better 9 times out of 10. The Z28 has it.

Hey Penz, your right on the track thing...we talked about that. Problem with this whole thing is we are talking streetlight to streetlight or 1/4 track terms. The handle thing really means nothing over here for many. Very few people (including the ones that think they can drive) really can drive a car like it could be in the US. Track time is not a real big thing in the US, we are all nascar and drag racing. I think you would be suprised on how well the few who do Autocross in the US handle a Stang or 'maro though. We already covered that is the American car companies biggest weak link. I will also admit Im damn good in the 1/4, but put me out on a track and the pylons are in danger.

Ya know, this all reminds me of when the S2000 was comming. Guys were talking about how it would kill stangs etc. Once agian it is a fine fine auto and a joy to drive but the reality is in the 1/4 and on the street is does not win most of the races. But Penz is right, a track is the place it will shine. When it is said and done the Z is gonna rock and be a threat, but the reality will settle in.

i think the whole thing in the end boils down to the simple fact of where each car is made. The US is into 1/4 miles times etc., but Europe and Japan are into tracks and handling issues. As Nissan is Japanese they make the car with most influence from their home market, whioch means it has to shine first and foremost on a track. I doubt things will ever change between the US market and the Japan/Europe market because of what is required from the performance cars in the respective countries.

And I hate to say this, but I don't think they know what they're talking about saying that american cars can't handle... SVT cars specifically are tuned to handle better than the regular cars, and those ones are not that bad. I hate to keep doing this, but pick up the Jan. 2001 issue of Road and Track (I swear I only have 2 magazines next to me and the other one is the latest issue of C&D). They did a big road test and ran a bunch of cars on the track for lap times in that R&T. The Camaro SS posted a quicker LAP TIME than the BMW M roadster, the S2000 and Mercedes SLK320. American cars are NOT dogs when it comes to taking turns!! You guys need to catch up on the times! It's not 1969 anymore!!

must admit that surprises me, what were the times posted? the SLK and BMW arent too brilliant but the S2000 is a good little car.

I think that the whole 1/4 mile times debate is a little overstated. That arena is so controlled and monitored. If you get out on the street for a real light to light challenge, the circumstances and situations that arise are totally different. Not to mention most of the street races that take place in the normal world are a whole lot shorter than a 1/4 mile. I think that the T/A would have the upper hand though... I guess we'll have to wait and see. It should be fun though!!

I think Merc50 has a point here. I have never seen an import taxi cab or police car, and those usually have the hardest miles put on them. I'm not saying that the 350 is going to suck, probably just the opposite. It could be a very cool car. I just don't think that it is going to be as hellfire fast as some would want you to believe. BUY AMERICAN!!

The 350 is not a fast car. it is a SPORTS CAR. Sports cars have always been great fun to drive, good handling, lightweight, but not always terrifically fast in a straight line. Straight line speed is the domain of supercars and muscle cars. So 69Stand is right, it wont be as hellfire fast as some cars, but it will probably be a hell of a lot more fun to drive.

But would you not also say that being lightweight and agile go hand in hand? The 350 weighs more than a Corvette! And in addition, a Corvette is lower, wider and has fatter tires than the 350. It seem like the best route for the 350 is a serious diet if it wants to find itself in the 'helluva lot more fun to drive' category.

I'm sorry to say, you will NOT win.

I have driven the 350Z already (work at a dealer, boss got one early),
and I currently drive a 00' Camaro SS, so I have felt both. My SS did 13.4 stock and definitely has more power. The 350 is an awesome car and probably handles better, but in a straight line, don't bet the pink slip!!

Originally posted by SpyVO
But would you not also say that being lightweight and agile go hand in hand? The 350 weighs more than a Corvette! And in addition, a Corvette is lower, wider and has fatter tires than the 350. It seem like the best route for the 350 is a serious diet if it wants to find itself in the 'helluva lot more fun to drive' category.

for sure lightweight and agile do go hand in hand. but cornering ability alone dont make a good handling car. a good handling car has to be incredibly responsive and give excellent feedback, not just have huge cornering grip (Jaguars XJR-15 being a case in point). im not essentially comparing the 350 to a Corvette or anything else, im just saying that just because it may not have a brilliant 1/4 mile time does not mean it is a brilliant car that does what it was intended to do very well. A big car can be fun to drive, if the whole package is well setup

Originally posted by 69stang
I think Merc50 has a point here. I have never seen an import taxi cab or police car, and those usually have the hardest miles put on them. I'm not saying that the 350 is going to suck, probably just the opposite. It could be a very cool car. I just don't think that it is going to be as hellfire fast as some would want you to believe. BUY AMERICAN!!

OK, I am going to explain things very easily so you all can understand the true fact of the matter. I want you to understand the facts, so you can make good, well though comments.

What do the successful carmakers do? They build good cars that their countrymen LIKE--and if they are good enough, drivers like them elsewhere in the world, too. BMWs for example aren't global, they're GERMAN. Another words, BMWs dont have parts made by other companies and engineers. Successful foreign companies don't outsource their basic engineering to a foreign engineering establishment.

Ford uses designs and engineering from its mediocre foreign units in Europe, Japan and Latin America. Ford is currently thinking of getting rid of the American-designed Taurus and building a version of the newer European Mondeo in the U.S. instead.

General Motors is building the new Saturn L off a German-designed platform--and the car has flopped. Before that was the Cadillac Catera, a thinly disguised German Opel that was shipped over here, sold poorly and was killed.

Chrysler is talking about letting Mitsubishi (controlled by German Daimler, which also controls Chrysler) do the basic work for its next small car, the Neon. Mitsubishi is not a successful company in Japan. The upcoming Chrysler Crossfire sports coupe is to be built in Germany and loaded with Mercedes components.

If Americans don't design and engineer cars for America, it won't be long before they won't be able to. The designers and engineers will be laid off or not replaced when they retire.

So, your point, is way off base, and has no relevance. Buying American these days is like saying buy a mutt. If you want a pure bred you better buy something German or Japanese. I own an American made car but I promise you this, that car isnt 100% American. To justify my point, need i remind you the story of Flint, Michigan? Mr. Moore, the CEO of GM moved its factories in Flint to Mexico back in the 80's. Not hundreds, not thousands, but tens of thousands of hardworking Americans lost their jobs and livelyhoods from this move. Next, the parts used for assembly were being made in other countries. Now, if GM was trying to earn market share and save money by moving its factories to Mexico to reduce shipping cost, That move would be valid. Do you think thats what GM was doing? I think GM moved its factories to mexico to save money on Labor. I think GM would have rather cut a buck at the expense of the hardworking American.

Next, I have stated this before, PLEASE name a foreign car that competes for market share with the crown victoria. There simply are none. Police need a car that can handle a big V-8 and also have the capacity to transport arrested individuals. They need a car that is versatile enough to have some get up and go for high speed chases but also be big enough to endure the rigors of a possible crash. And, the doosey, they need all of this for a cheap entry level price. Taxi companies use big cars for higher human transport and luggage capacity. Like Merc said, Germany uses mercedes, "the workhorse" as taxis and cop cars and such. True, thats in GERMANY!!!Do you know how expensive it is to Americanize a German Mercedes???

Lastly, please tell me retail sales figures of a Crown Victoria: 1) The whole Sales figure 2) The sales made from Police Agencys 3) Sales made from the American Consumer

You realize that sales of this car is mostly made up from police agencys. Even more revealing, the average age of a person buying a Crown Victoria, is 50+.

Lastly, the 350Z, like its predecesor will change the sorts car market indefinately. The car is going to outrun your GT's and Z28's, get out of your fantasy worlds. An SS, Corvette, and Cobra will blow a 350Z right out of the water, nobody ever said they wouldnt. Highly tuned vettes get 200mph+ for goodness sakes. Also, understand that the Z was not designed, nor marketed against the GT's or Z28's, rather, Nissan pits it up against the Porsche Boxter...Hmm, thats interesting, why would Nissan do such a thing like that??? Is it because they feel that Porsche sets a well known standard for sports cars???

Understand the financials of these large automakers, understand facts, then speak your mind. Also, merc, you mentioned earlier that Nissan had "problems". Must I remind you about the firestone incident???

Im not bashing American, I have a Jeep Cherokee and the vehicle before that was a Cherokee. I am bashing your comments, they are factually incorrect.

Originally posted by malibubong
You realize that sales of this car is mostly made up from police agencys. Even more revealing, the average age of a person buying a Crown Victoria, is 50+.

For those of you who can't find your way out of a paper bag, I figured I better go into greater depth on this comment. Ford rarely markets for the crown victoria.Have you seen a commercial on TV lately hyping up a 2003 CROWN VICTORIA!!! I haven't. Ford knows that domestic police agencys are locked in because they dont have any competition for what the police need. Foreign competitors arent bothered with trying to get in this mrket because they can't compete with ford through trade tarrifs and other shipping issues.

The second comment shows you the demographics of people who buy the fullsize entry level sedans, somebody who wants the big car without spending the extra buck for a town car. These are the older generation. They want something from their past. They want to feel safe and like the idea of still having that big V-8 under the hood. Chevy Impallas are marketed just like that too.

If police agencys decide that the crown victoria isnt what they need anymore, These fullsize entry level cars will be out the window because the market that is buying these vehicles are aging and as shitty as this sounds, wont be here forever.

I dont believe it matters what the competition is, the US police will still buy US cars. It wouldnt exactly look good for the worlds most economically powerful country to supply its police force with cars from another country, and most likely countries that are in direct competition for market share with the US auto industry.

Yes i definitly agree with you malibubong and you Pennzoil GT-R.
I am very much looking forward to the 350Z it will be GREAT.

I toned this down in an edit...your not a total snot


I just love your holy-er than though attitude...so right off the bat let me tell you I think you are being kind of a snot. Your facts are my fiction.

Have you ever lined up against a stock Z28...do you understand how much faster that car is to a GT? Im telling you it will beat the Z in in the 1/4. Since you brought it up, you said whoever on here said it would...well Zane did if you would read the posts. This stated with a Ram Air vs. the new Z. Hows that for a fact. Oh, and the Z would loose in the situation described stock vs. stock. Another FACT!

Crown Vic...all imports have cut into the sales of it...the low end bigger German cars and the larger Japanese cars are the cars that have stolen the market share, I never said it was not a dying breed of car. YOU keep talking relevant and bring in more stuff. Yeah, its a geezer market that is dying, what the heck is your point? THEY have tested other makes as police cars, pure and simple. The FWD imports do not work for the job. Neither do they work for cabs in the US due to passenger volume and upkeep in the US. Its common sense dude. I also gave you facts, pointed out the Volvo experiment in Texas, and you just harp on how you are right and we are all wrong. In fact, the Texas Highway Patrol looked really hard at other cars becaues they themselves do not like being a slave to the one maker. The only things that were found to work for what they needed in todays market...SUV's. No other cars import or not could handle the abuse, do the job, or catch the crooks.

German cars are not global...nonsense. They hire designers from all over the world. The reason stuff in not built everywhere is not pride like you imply, its xenophobic european car building. Cars in EUROPE are still almost in a cottage industry mode...they are not out to conquer the world (for good and bad) like the US companies have done in the past (over extend). Your vanted example is going global by the way, they bought a big US company for that reason...to cut costs, expand global share, and make money. You are in the bag now, as you like to put it.

Opel Cadillac, gee...wonder why that did not sell. Opel just has such a great track record.

You came back and attacked the issue on the need for vics again in the next post. Yeah, you are right...they wont make them that big very much in the future...but we are already seeing a return to larger V8 and 6 RWD cars. Dont see many of your Germans using FWD, and oh gee, the GTO...look at that.


Zane kept throwing gas on the issue. No one said the NISSAN Z was junk or that it was not nice etc. This whole thing started with a guy wanting to know if he would take a RAM AIR out on the street and he cant in most cases. I have said in other posts and on other threads that the car is nice, its a threat, but it is not a 1/4 killer...its gonna get beat by the V8's in that. Corners are a different issue. I said that, I have no problem with that. But I can tell you I can not wait to line up next to one just for fun. The Boxster S, taken them on the street several times. Would he out corner me, hell yeah. Can he get me off the line, no. Can they beat me if I am off, launch wrong, etc., yes. I love how a street argument got turned into a quality and handling argument. Funny, what was that word you like to use...relevant?

To me you took a nice debate and made it personal with your bag stuff and how we need to think out our answers. Get real.

See what ya started Zane(just kidding, your alright):licker:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by merc50
[B]


Name calling now? Im a snotty little jerk? Best you could do....what happens when you get beat on the line by somebody? you gonnah wine and tell them that they "suck" or call them a "snotty little jerk"? Is that what you do when you get beat in life, on the raod, in school, job, on an internet forum? wahwahwah, my pussy hurts. You have selective reading, poiting out things that you may have some knowledge about, but you don't know your ass froma hole in a ground. BMW, not global? Global how, no they dont use other manufacturers parts in their cars. Yes, they cut costs by establishing manufacturing facilities in the United States and elswhere globally, and yes they are on the global market. I almost think i have dumbfounded you with too many big words like"globalism". Oh, and im not looking for pats on the back or words of encouragement from others on this forum, I speak what I think.

Bottom line, everything you say is opinion oriented. I give credit where credit is due. Big American muscle cars the cobras, vettes, SS are sweet cars. GT mustangs, T/A's, firebirds, and Z28's remind me of something off of heehaw or from the movie "Meet Joe Dirt." Just cause those cars have 8's in them dont make them special.

Tell me I cant drive? Hmm, yeah, and your so great because you drive for who? Where do you come up with these half ass conclusions, put your finger up your butt and check around the corner? No, Im not a professional driver, but I can tell you if you must know I had a shitty little '86 MR2 in highschool and during college that i used to race. no, i could'nt run a new cobra, but i ate GT's and Z28's for breakfast with about $3500 worth of mods, oh and i bought the car for $1500. 1/4 in 13.7, one time, averaged 14.0. Whats that shitty bullit run it at? give me a fax number and i'll send you some slips from Old Dominion Raceway.

The question you must ask yourself, is, would you rather buy a nicely lined, highly refined and tuned Z, or a redneck GT or F-body.

Peace.

New Question to get off this dead subject, oh and since this is a Z forum:
Am i right in saying that the Track model only comes in automatic tranny? is the only way to get a 6er via the touring, thats what they are saying at the dealership but literature says differently. Anybody know??

Wow, malibubong... That's all I can say...

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go buy a 350Z! I want YOU to have one so that you can have you ass handed to you in every contest by a brand new Mustang GT.

I'm not one for name calling, since I'm sure you're a nice guy and all. But it seems you have a thing or two to learn about domestic sports cars.

"Name calling now? Im a snotty little jerk? Best you could do....what happens when you get beat on the line by somebody? you gonnah wine and tell them that they "suck" or call them a "snotty little jerk"? Is that what you do when you get beat in life, on the raod, in school, job, on an internet forum? wahwahwah, my pussy hurts."

Yeah, I named called...I take it back. How do I act when I get beat...I take it. I already said I have been taken by modded imports. YOU came on talking like you are on some higher level than eveyone else but can't admit it with you "bag" comments and such. For someone that is so superior it did not take much to get you to fly off the handle. I still say your comments came off very snotty. Im man enuff to back off from it and say "sorry." I still find you holy-er than though attitude wise and I gave you facts you glossed over. You keep telling us how much smarter you are...whatever.

So I guess I don't have "p*****" problem. How about you...man enuff to admit anything snotty about those comments slick? Does yours hurt...and hey, I did name calling, you started talking with a gutter mouth...nah nah (kidding on that, but you see the point I hope)

Your comment about the cars being hillbilly cars shows you are not much of an Amercian car guy anyhow. How is an SS that much differnet from a Z28 looks wise? You came to the table with a bias and it showed in your posts.

Best I ever did in the 1/4...12.1 on an old GTO. I have plenty of track time. Those times you just posted would mean the Bullitt would have you 99% of the time stock. So what? Stock you car was nothing. This was a stock vs. stock argument. Ive seen imports do 9's...whoope. I can hit 14 and hight 13's without much effort.

On global talk, I was using your Mercedes example from later on...got mixed up. ..Mercedes is global. BMW is very much in the cottage industry frame of mind, oprerates in a social democracy that protects them, and are kind of xenephobic on the issue of doing anything outsource(not such a bad thing). Im sure they will at some point due to cost change that. They will have to, that closed door thing is what killed the UK's car industry. The thing is BMW is a profitable company and they do not need to now. Everyone likes them...that won't last forever. If I was a betting man I would say they would love to scoop up someone if they had the chance. In fact, if Ford gets bad enuff I have seen people mention them as a target of other companies. BMW/Ford...it could happen..maybe.

The shitty Bullitt runs fine, how about the shitty "me too" SUV you have?

Peace? Um, yeah...anyhow balls in your court on the tone of this. Don't do the "I'm not gonna play anymore and run thing" please.

You have it backwards I think, the track is stick only from what I read. Why would they put an auto in the track at all, defeats the purpose of the package. Kind of like having a stick Cobra or something.

I priced one up for myself...I would go with the tourning and the stick. I want the leather and such. I love that Le Mans Sunset also.

Back on the track version, I just read the C&D mag on it...man, why is that car so heavy? One guy out of the the four did not like it. Sounds like room for improvement on a tuned turbo version at somepoint.
:p

Originally posted by merc50
"
:p

stuff about the track model makes sense to me, but I kid you not, the dealership told me that the track model only came in automatic.

1.)BMW is very global, they have a factory in South Carolina, not a"cottage company"

2.)What are you talking about german cars being a cottage industry in the firstplace, must I remind you of the Beetle? Dont, quote me on this but perhaps the most sold car in history, globally.

you would be right in saying that the Beetle has sold more examples than anything else.

I spent $5000 on an '86 4 banger that could run with big 8's, and also had better handling than alot of things that could really be thrown at it. Was a quick little car. Jeep runs great, thanks. Before I had it I had a '93 Grand Cherokee though, so I dont see your point on "me too" SUV. Plus the fact that I live in Virgnia means there are good trails and we sometimes get snow which means a jeep is a fun ride to have. It's a good vehicle, runs well, classic look. I have an R-6 now anyways, and dont need a fast car, going from car to bike makes all the difference in the world.

Hhhmmmm, I backed off and said "sorry"...your did'nt...I rest my case on your attitude.

1.)BMW is very global, they have a factory in South Carolina, not a"cottage company"

Your were going on and on about how they do not make parts in other countries, or design the cars for other markets blah blah. BMW is the one company in Germany that is the most hard core about being all German. They are the one that builds what they want to build and the market follows them rather than building to what they think the market wants. Becasue they are so good it works...for now and the forseable future. British companies like Jag tried to be the same way and it got them in trouble. Car makers in Europe, except VW because they are very different from the other companies, had a differnet vision(like the Japanese and US actually), and stumbled into the legend that is now the Bug, have always had a very limited focus. US and Japanese companies are more "we want to do everything and conquer the world." They try to build something for everyone and do tons and tons of cars. Thus they are far more spred out, buy other companies, and use anything and everything to get an end result that may or may not be any good. You make it sound like its beneath the Germans to hire and American designer or have a part built in Taiwan...and its not.

2.)What are you talking about german cars being a cottage industry in the firstplace, must I remind you of the Beetle? Dont, quote me on this but perhaps the most sold car in history, globally.

And I tied this to your comment about them not being global in the sense of various parts being built elsewhere. And the Beetle is a great example for the case against that. The Mexican Beetle...put together and many of the part were made in Mexico long after the car was out of the US market. Most European car makers are not on the same level as the Japanese or US. They are limited in focus. You were saying they do not build a car with the intent to sell it in Asia for example...and yet VW built a outdated bug for the Latin America market. They would and will start doing these kinds of things...they are moving towards it. From what I gather you say they are not. They are moving away from the building of cars just because that is what their country men like from your example, and they are starting to go up a level. Mercedes getting involved with Dodge is an example. BMW I bet would love to see Ford get in more trouble and do the same thing.

The jist is this...most European car companies are not trully global in the real sense of the word yet. They are not going out to sell a car in everymarket that they can. They are not saying "we need a car just for Latin America, and one for the Mid East" and so on. They do sell cars in these markets by putting what they have into the market. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not(it usally does if you can be afforded by the people like small parts of the North African market). They for the most part have not been into eating up smaller companies and inserting into non tradtional markets. Now that many of them are in bed with US and Japanese companies, they are now building cars that are not just for the country they are in. They are also all starting to look at other counrtries for parts and such to cut costs since the econmy turn down. Mercedes what to play GM's game now, they did not ten years ago.

Originally posted by merc50
Hhhmmmm, I backed off and said "sorry"...your did'nt...I rest my case on your attitude.

1.)BMW is very global, they have a factory in South Carolina, not a"cottage company"

Your were going on and on about how they do not make parts in other countries, or design the cars for other markets blah blah. BMW is the

I said that BMW doesnt use parts from other car manufacturers in its cars. Its "product" is not global, it doesnt have parts made for other "products" in it. Its "products" are manufactured in other countries, but the "BMW" design and product is used for assembly making it a global company. BMW going out of business, or losing out because they market to the affluent rather than the working class? thats like saying porsche will too because they dont build economy cars. Both manufacturures have been around for years, and built on a specific company vission. They have core competencies that they stick to. And the kicker, you admit that ford is in trouble, why do you think its such a great product?

BMW markets to the yuppie and affluent types. Its core competencies rest upon its ability to build a luxurious performance based automobile. They do not waste time spending lots of time on the economy market. Its not their core competency or in their interest. Diversification into other markets might not be a bad idea for BMW but that doesnt mean that they are going to straight up buy ford and move into a far larger based market. Ford lost its deals years ago, as did GM. They went for dollars and now theyre hurting. BMW stuck to its guns and repetively made solid gaines year after year.

One,
HHH

I heard that to but i think you can get manual not sure though.

All these cars are great cars but id take the z cause im a fan of it. And when it comes out hopfully i get one ( have one pre order might cancle it, cause of money) and get some mods on it. There gonna be fun cars and fun to see how they match up.

Everyone in here seems like a good guy :)

Not once did I say they were are going out of buisness. What is with you?

I swear I am misreading or something...to me you keep switching between global economics and global platforms for building internation cars.

I bet BMW will at some point build a car on a shared platform or have cross over parts...can't prove it , but I bet it will happen. People said the same about Jag and Mercedes once. They are really sniffing around, maybe a Japanese company?

Have I defended Ford as a company? Did I say they were superior in all ways or something. NO, I DID NOT.

How many time are you going to ignore that this started from a Ram Air vs. a Z questiong and that the Ram Air will smoke it...plain and simple. The shitty car I have is gonna give it hell street light to street light. You came in with all this relevant talk and now we have this pointless argument.

Flat out, are you saying the Z will roast a SS, TA, Ram Air TA, Bullitt, Cobra, Z28, and GT street light to street light. No way. On a closed curcuit track the Z is the car. 1/4 wise and on the street is another story. Are you missing this point?

You just keep throwing out stuff. I try and talk about what you said and you ignore it and add more.

Who is BMW going to sell to if the econmy keeps turning down? If it does, are they gonna keep selling cars no one can buy? No, they will change...they will have to. Others last time did not and look what happend...Jag again. BMW is too big now and getting bigger, they can not operate in the niche market much longer. Porsche is still relativly small next to BMW. And yet, they are jumping on the SUV bandwagon and have always shared with VW...parts sharing going on there.

BMW has mentioned diversity alot as of late. They see a weak industry as a whole and like any company would like to expand. Your argument would say they would not do so in many ways.

Oh, and on your little car you bought example, you do not think I could grab an old fox body stang and give you hell for even less money? I could get close on a track, in the 1/4 it would be bye bye. Have you seen what they can do with F bodies and stangs at a meet any in the recent past? Sure see a bunch of them autocrossig with the BMW and other cars of that ilk.

Im glad you think the Bullitt is shit, thanks...means a bunch from you:D

If you really want to continue with all this, lets take it off the board so the rest do not have to suffer...I doubt any of them really care at this point.

Still not going to give me an inch on the attitude, huh? Of course, what do I know, I drive a shitty Bullitt as you put it :smoker2:

Are they making you pay a premium or anthing on it Zane? I can not understang that myself...I wont do it. I know a guy that paid 5 over sticker on a new Cobra...why oh why would anyone do that. I can see paying sticker to get one of the first ones but geez.

What trim level and options are you thinking...and color. Seems like everyone is going for that blue color in the other threads.

Originally posted by zane11
I heard that to but i think you can get manual not sure though.

All these cars are great cars but id take the z cause im a fan of it. And when it comes out hopfully i get one ( have one pre order might cancle it, cause of money) and get some mods on it. There gonna be fun cars and fun to see how they match up.

Everyone in here seems like a good guy :)

Yeah, in all reality anyways, brembos and lighter wheels are the only thing making a track model different from the others. I know wheels could certainly make a difference, 18 lbs doesnt seem like alot to me, thats alittle over 4lbs a wheel. Would that make a real difference in times? maybe 500ths of a second? when people compare the Z, getting a base model will get you the same almost exact car performace wise.


Heres my final point on the issue:

Take a Z vs. Z28

Now, because we have established that some of you feel Car and Driver had error in their numbers, can it be agreed upon that their numbers are a good averege, certainly not the greatest numbers that can be attained by a car nor the worst.

Z28 1/4-13.8----0-60----5.2
Z 1/4-14.1---0-60----5.4

I would like to make a valid point. On average, the Z28 is going to run the Z. But, not everyone is as good a driver as the nxt. In this case, these cars are close. 2 tenths of a second to the average-above average driver like most of us are isn't much room to play with.

Base Z - $27,000
Z28 - $23,000

OK, at first glance one might look at purely hp performace, the Z28 has the Z beat by about 23 hp. Price in the base Z28 doesnt inlcude the stuff you get standard in the Z. Rear Defogger, Keyless Entry, Power Locks, Power Mirrors, Power Windows, traction control. And the factory warranty on the Z is way better against rust and powertrain.

If im driving a car around for everyday use, i would want those things. By the time the Z28 gets the same options that comes with the standard Z your over the price of a Z. Plus, you have essentially the same body style that every RS, Z28, SS, Firebird etc has. With the Z you have a sleek body, new, different and unique.

If i want a Z to beat a Z28 on hp performance, that wouldnt be tough, an aftermarket $200 computer chip would probably do the trick.


Until we actually have Z everywhere runing times, we are really specualting performace on the car. Its gearing, and weight make differences on times and its less than a month that the US will have Z's on the road.

At this point in the game however, when you have 2 cars, basically same perfomance it comes down to personal preference. If you like the camaro style, then your going to get the camaro, if you like unique things you would lean towards the Z

My best friend had a Z28 a few years back, he loved the car but said it lacked in styling because he felt like everywhere he looked there was another car just like his. Its just your preference. If you want a performance car without the amenities of power locks, windows etc. get the Z28. If you like having the little things that make for a more pleasurable car on the whole go Z (maybe alittle less hp performance, but alot more to offer as a car to drive daily and better handling). If you get to every light and want to race everybody on the road get a Z28, for the hp, its a hell of a deal. If you want to enjoy the finer comforts go Z. Thats my take on it.

One,

HHH

Originally posted by merc50
If you really want to continue with all this, lets take it off the board so the rest do not have to suffer...I doubt any of them really care at this point.

Still not going to give me an inch on the attitude, huh? Of course, what do I know, I drive a shitty Bullitt as you put it :smoker2:

Truth, hey you stick to your guns, some people would just give up, thats admirable. Im sure that my comments have changed some of your thoughts as a few of yours have changed mine. Thats what these forums are for. They make you think. Its enjoyable.

Were cool.

I will tell you something else that kills me about the new Z...the damn headlights and the drive shaft. They should have the headlights on the Stang and at least the aluminum drive shaft that Ford sells after market...and that would give a little more edge for very little if any added cost on the lot...but they won't do that. I love how they put the carbon fiber one in the Z.

The trim levels sell me also...all makers need to have more customizable options of cars.

I wonder why you can not "mess up" for a lack of a better word the track edition with the leather seats and high end stereo. That would be the one I would want even thought it would be a performance sacrafice...its not like I would really use it on the track like it could be.

I still wonder after looking at the article at Forbes, how much would that Skyline cost. I personally have never viewed a Skyline as a Vette type car like many do. I think it falls in better with the Stang as a coupe with performance...alot of performance. Goes in with the WRX and EVO to me also. I swear I would buy a Skyline if they were in the at most high 30's low 40's range like the Cobra(too much still though). To me its the Z that should be lumped in with the Vette even if it does not have the raw HP etc. Its the two seater aspect I guess. But still, everytime I see press on the GT R 35 its put in as a Vette type car. Wont that leave the fan base of the car out anyhows?

"""""I wonder why you can not "mess up" for a lack of a better word the track edition with the leather seats and high end stereo. That would be the one I would want even thought it would be a performance sacrafice...its not like I would really use it on the track like it could be""""""

Thats what I'm saying, I think you can only get the track in auto too. This is the one thing about the car that dissappoints me. They should just offer the base model for 27,000 and then let you build the car how you want.

one,

HHH

Check out this artical on the 350Z http://www.forbes.com/2002/07/08/0708feat.html

They have all god things to say about it pretty much and a 0-60 from 5.2 to 5.5
And Nissan was aiming against the 911. Thats surprising to me.

I just checked the Nissandriven.com build it thingy...the track can only have the stick...no auto version.

To make my point, Im going to use the $35,000 SVT Cobra vs. The $27,000 350Z. If I spent $8,000 to modify a Z and make it comparable in price to a SVT it would blow it right off the road. I would imagine that an after market turbo will be made for the car and that would probably put the car right up with a Vette or a SVT Cobra. I promise that single mod wont cost $8,000 either.

Yeah, but you're comparing a base 350Z against a top of the line Mustang. Why not ring up the 350Z Track model at $36K against the SVT Cobra at $36K. The 350Z loses -- down 100 HP, more than .5 sec 0 to 60, same brakes on both, same IRS on both -- and the Cobra would paste you on the track as well. The rags have it nearly as fasta on the track as last year's Cobra R.

How about we take two $27K cars (base 350Z vs. Base Mustang). Spend 8K on each. At that point, the 350Z starts looking really good because of its advantage in suspension. Although for an additional 8K you can make a base GT scream. A 347 stroker kit and some NO2 and you're good for 500HP... on a live axle rear end that sucks for anything but drag racing..