92 grand am 2.3L SOHC engine mount
GrandAmNot
05-03-2006, 07:45 AM
92 Grand AM, excelent cond., super clean, 58,000 miles, 2.3 L Quad SOHC.
Going after the head gasket. Manifolds removed. That extra exhaust manifold support bracket was a stubborn surprise. The bracket to manifold bolt was a mess. Used a Saws-All and just cut the bracket. Removed the part of the engine mount attached to the wheelwell/rail and the 4-bolt 90 degree aluminum piece (the dogbone?) but can't get that plate off the side of the engine. Need to get that off to get at the timing chain cover.
Have used WD-40, Liquid Wrench, and the closed end of a 15mm wrench with a pipe extension. Those three bolts won't budge. Do I need heat? Would a Benz-o-Matic be hot enough? Are those three bolts reverse threaded.
A used or rebuilt engine is not an option$
Have already just slightly rounded one bolt. Any more of that and the project is over. Tempted to drill holes in the wheel well and use a break bar and socket.
Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks. Keith
Going after the head gasket. Manifolds removed. That extra exhaust manifold support bracket was a stubborn surprise. The bracket to manifold bolt was a mess. Used a Saws-All and just cut the bracket. Removed the part of the engine mount attached to the wheelwell/rail and the 4-bolt 90 degree aluminum piece (the dogbone?) but can't get that plate off the side of the engine. Need to get that off to get at the timing chain cover.
Have used WD-40, Liquid Wrench, and the closed end of a 15mm wrench with a pipe extension. Those three bolts won't budge. Do I need heat? Would a Benz-o-Matic be hot enough? Are those three bolts reverse threaded.
A used or rebuilt engine is not an option$
Have already just slightly rounded one bolt. Any more of that and the project is over. Tempted to drill holes in the wheel well and use a break bar and socket.
Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks. Keith
gmack221
05-03-2006, 08:07 AM
Those are stubborn bolts, try heating them up with a torch, then after you shut off the torch spray them with penetrating oil while they are still warm, sometimes this will allow it to penetrate. To make heat work the best you have to heat the engine block where the bolts thread into, problem is the bracket is right there, hope you get lucky and they come right out. To avoid rounding any more off try putting the wrench on the bolt & using blocks of wood between the wrench & the wheelwell, then put your pipe on and you should be easier. Try a few taps with a hammer on the pipe.
Oh and no those bolts are not reverse thread, righty tighty lefty loosey.
Oh and no those bolts are not reverse thread, righty tighty lefty loosey.
GrandAmNot
05-04-2006, 06:36 AM
Wow. That was quick. Thanks.
Got a 6 point wrench and a propane torch. Will see how that goes.
Front end is on jacks with the right wheel off and both struts extended.
Might also try removing bottom mount, raising right control arm/axle and seeing how far up I can raise that side of the engine. Maybe enough to get two of the bolts accessible above wheel well.
Thanks agin. Will post back with results.
Got a 6 point wrench and a propane torch. Will see how that goes.
Front end is on jacks with the right wheel off and both struts extended.
Might also try removing bottom mount, raising right control arm/axle and seeing how far up I can raise that side of the engine. Maybe enough to get two of the bolts accessible above wheel well.
Thanks agin. Will post back with results.
GrandAmNot
05-16-2006, 06:36 PM
Well, finally got that plate off. Found some "Bolt Out' (or Bolt Off) gizmos from Sears/Craftsman. They work like Easy Outs but are sockets with spiral ridges inside that bite into the bolt head when turning left. They work great. May or may not have had to remove the lower mount, break caliper and seperate the axle from the spline to raise that side of the engine another 5-6 inches. But it is done. Thought I'd be on my way to removing the chain and head. No such luck. The main pully for the serpentine belt has to come off to get the chain cover off. Big 27mm (1 1/16) bolt holding the pully. Propane heat and impact wrench won't budge it. Wonder if the heat is just expanding the bolt and making it worse. May need a bigger compressor. Using a big wrench or ratchet/socket just turns the inards.
If at first you don't succeed, try and try again. Then quit. No sense being a damn fool about it. May take myself up on that advice soon.
If at first you don't succeed, try and try again. Then quit. No sense being a damn fool about it. May take myself up on that advice soon.
gmack221
05-16-2006, 09:31 PM
I think I actually used an english socket to remove that bolt, but if you have a metric one thats even better. Make sure you have the belt on (this will provide a little more drag), they make impacts with different torques (or what ever they call it), maybe you have a cheaper one like I did. Best way I found to get that bolt out is using a ratchet & socket then beating on the ratchet handle with a hammer until it loosens. good luck, your almost thru the hard part! last tedious thing will be removing all of the timing chain cover bolts.
GrandAmNot
05-17-2006, 09:46 AM
Thanks again. I did take the belt off before lighting up the torche. I'll put the belt back on or - make something like those belt-type oil filter wrenches and use it to grab the pully. Have something quite similar for removing the gear clusters on 10/12/15/18-speed bicycles. All those chain cover bolts are already off. Was tempted to just bend that plate out of the way but figured it was time to walk away from the whole thing for a while and get my wits back in order. Will fix the neighbors clothes washer first - might be a good morale booster.
skibum1111
05-17-2006, 05:22 PM
Don't bend the cover, it will never seal right again if you do. As for the crank pulley bolt, get a socket and breaker bar on it, pinch it down with something, screwdriver against the block etc. then turn the bolt. You will need a puller to get the pulley off, make sure you don't use a jaw type puller, this will result in the pulley being bent. When you go to thread the bolts into the pulley, run a tap through them first, they tend to clog up with rust. Good luck.
GrandAmNot
05-18-2006, 08:42 PM
Finally!!! No heat. No impact wrench. Stuck a socket extension through the pully to keep it from moving, put a two foot pipe on the 1/2" ratchet with the 6 point socket, put my foot on the lower control arm, took a couple of deep breaths and pulled like hell. Got it. And no bloody knuckles! And my favorite local mechanics even loaned me their pully puller.
Bending the chain cover was just an idea born of frustration and anger. A cold beer sounded like, and was, a much better idea.
Next stop - the timing chain. Looks interesting. Might as well get a new one of those, too, when I get all the new gaskets. Would hate to have to do this all over again.
The neighbors think I'm nuts and I'm beginning to think they might be right.
Should I add '/head gasket' to the thread title? Can a thread title be edited?
Bending the chain cover was just an idea born of frustration and anger. A cold beer sounded like, and was, a much better idea.
Next stop - the timing chain. Looks interesting. Might as well get a new one of those, too, when I get all the new gaskets. Would hate to have to do this all over again.
The neighbors think I'm nuts and I'm beginning to think they might be right.
Should I add '/head gasket' to the thread title? Can a thread title be edited?
skibum1111
05-18-2006, 09:12 PM
After you remove the timing chain, remove the sprockets and the timing chain housing. There are 2 head bolts hidden behind the cover. Definately replace the chain, tensioner, guides and sprockets, it would really bite to have to go through all this again.
GrandAmNot
05-19-2006, 11:47 AM
Hidden bolts?? Surprise, surprise!!
What's a few more hack engineering marvels?
All auto engineers should have to do a repair job before cashing a paycheck.
If they can't do it, the check goes into a general fund for folks like us to spend on parts, tools, or mechanics.
What's a few more hack engineering marvels?
All auto engineers should have to do a repair job before cashing a paycheck.
If they can't do it, the check goes into a general fund for folks like us to spend on parts, tools, or mechanics.
GrandAmNot
05-20-2006, 08:11 PM
All three sprockets?
I'm running out of room in the trunk for the parts.
Should just pull the whole engine/trans out and put it on the floor.
edit added > Hadn't even pulled the bolt on the top sprocket yet. Definitely didn't expect the top and bottom bracket to just slide off. What about that middle sprocket that runs what looks like some kind of pump behind the chain housing? Does the 'pump' stay attached to the chain housing? < edit added
Tomorrow is Sunday - its been many many years since I've been to church but maybe I should go and confess to all the foul language and evil thoughts I've been having lately.
PS: Thanks to all for all the replies and suggestions/hints/clues.
I'm running out of room in the trunk for the parts.
Should just pull the whole engine/trans out and put it on the floor.
edit added > Hadn't even pulled the bolt on the top sprocket yet. Definitely didn't expect the top and bottom bracket to just slide off. What about that middle sprocket that runs what looks like some kind of pump behind the chain housing? Does the 'pump' stay attached to the chain housing? < edit added
Tomorrow is Sunday - its been many many years since I've been to church but maybe I should go and confess to all the foul language and evil thoughts I've been having lately.
PS: Thanks to all for all the replies and suggestions/hints/clues.
skibum1111
05-21-2006, 06:57 PM
Yup all 3 sprockets. After that, the only large part that will be left is the head. Make sure you put it some place that is safe, clean and it won't get knocked over. Also, while the head is off have a machine shop pressure test it to make sure it isn't cracked, and have them check it to make sure its level. It really sucks to put a motor back together to find the head is either warped or cracked.
gmack221
05-22-2006, 12:31 AM
Hidden bolts?? Surprise, surprise!!
What's a few more hack engineering marvels?
All auto engineers should have to do a repair job before cashing a paycheck.
If they can't do it, the check goes into a general fund for folks like us to spend on parts, tools, or mechanics.
By the way, engineers don't design the parts, designers make the parts so they can be made & be functional. Most of the time they don't get to see the whole picture of where everything is and how hard it will be to remove, but sometimes they do. Sometimes service is difficult, but when your told you have a space the size of a closed fist to put a power steering pump and you don't design the part that you have to take off to get to the power steering pump, how are you supposed to make it easier to get pump off.
In case you haven't figured it out, I am an automotive designer, Its always challenging and one person doesn't design it all. Yes I do work on cars, as well as most of the people in my field, yes we get just as mad when we come acrossed something someone didn't design easy to get off, but its part of life man, deal with it or pay someone that wrenches everyday to do it. The consumers all want small cars with big motors that get good gas mileage, if those 3 statements don't contridict each other I don't know what does. Oh yeah and we need that all yesterday, thats everyday life where I work. So just understand, "we do what we can to make everyone happy", but its very seldom that everyone is happy. We can design cars that would have big motors, & ride well, but they don't corner, they don't get good gas mileage, we quit making them in the 60's, & 1/2 the people out there today couldn't park them in a 50 acre field.
So you want a small car, that handles, has a big motor & get good gas mileage, then don't complain when it takes an extra 2 hrs labor to change a part, in a car that saves you hundreds of $ in gas money a year. Oh yeah and when we design a part that last a long time the OEM (car maker) says, since that lasted so long you can take another 1/5th of the weight of part out, so we can make things lighter to get better gas mileage.
The fact of the matter is you can't have it all, you want it like Buger King, great we'll give it to you "your way", but don't do cutting down an industry you don't understand, saying the money I make should go into an account you can spend, fact of the matter is its taken you almost a month to do what I did on my car in a night after work. I wrench and I know how long it should take to do things, a mechanic could have done your job in 4 - 5 hrs, for me it would take about 7-8, how long have you spent on it? Now im sorry if this sounds harsh, but you hit a real sore spot here. I spend my free time helping people save money (by not paying a mechanic) on these forums, and to get a crack like that out of someone I'm helping step thru a project hurt. I'm sure im not the only car designer that surfs these forums, and im sure they are helping people out where they can, so use a little more respect for the industry Please!
What's a few more hack engineering marvels?
All auto engineers should have to do a repair job before cashing a paycheck.
If they can't do it, the check goes into a general fund for folks like us to spend on parts, tools, or mechanics.
By the way, engineers don't design the parts, designers make the parts so they can be made & be functional. Most of the time they don't get to see the whole picture of where everything is and how hard it will be to remove, but sometimes they do. Sometimes service is difficult, but when your told you have a space the size of a closed fist to put a power steering pump and you don't design the part that you have to take off to get to the power steering pump, how are you supposed to make it easier to get pump off.
In case you haven't figured it out, I am an automotive designer, Its always challenging and one person doesn't design it all. Yes I do work on cars, as well as most of the people in my field, yes we get just as mad when we come acrossed something someone didn't design easy to get off, but its part of life man, deal with it or pay someone that wrenches everyday to do it. The consumers all want small cars with big motors that get good gas mileage, if those 3 statements don't contridict each other I don't know what does. Oh yeah and we need that all yesterday, thats everyday life where I work. So just understand, "we do what we can to make everyone happy", but its very seldom that everyone is happy. We can design cars that would have big motors, & ride well, but they don't corner, they don't get good gas mileage, we quit making them in the 60's, & 1/2 the people out there today couldn't park them in a 50 acre field.
So you want a small car, that handles, has a big motor & get good gas mileage, then don't complain when it takes an extra 2 hrs labor to change a part, in a car that saves you hundreds of $ in gas money a year. Oh yeah and when we design a part that last a long time the OEM (car maker) says, since that lasted so long you can take another 1/5th of the weight of part out, so we can make things lighter to get better gas mileage.
The fact of the matter is you can't have it all, you want it like Buger King, great we'll give it to you "your way", but don't do cutting down an industry you don't understand, saying the money I make should go into an account you can spend, fact of the matter is its taken you almost a month to do what I did on my car in a night after work. I wrench and I know how long it should take to do things, a mechanic could have done your job in 4 - 5 hrs, for me it would take about 7-8, how long have you spent on it? Now im sorry if this sounds harsh, but you hit a real sore spot here. I spend my free time helping people save money (by not paying a mechanic) on these forums, and to get a crack like that out of someone I'm helping step thru a project hurt. I'm sure im not the only car designer that surfs these forums, and im sure they are helping people out where they can, so use a little more respect for the industry Please!
Slade901
05-23-2006, 07:31 AM
I'm on the same situation as you are, I tried using a close-end wrench and it's like I can see the wrench getting bent and still not budging. I'll try that heat stuff and easy out from Sears.
GrandAmNot
05-23-2006, 07:37 AM
Ouch. Looks like I've got another good reason to head to the confessor.
Sorry, gmack, for that knee jerk reaction/comment from when I was in the throes of that fit of frustration and thanks, gmack, I deserved the smack. Though my wish list for a car is pretty short: a small to medium car, a reliable small to medium sized engine and a horn and windows that work. Too many Hummers and assorted gas guzzling hulks at the grocery store and it is fun and disturbing at the same time to be a spectator at the 50 acre field.
Even if I had all the requisite tools and more experience it does seem a bit extreme to have jump thru so many hoops to replace a gasket. Though I suppose that goes with the overhead cam territory. Looks like the oilpan has to go, too, to free the lower end of the timing chain housing. But the cradle part of the engine side of the lower mount is hiding some of the oil pan bolts and the jack is under the oilpan. No cherry picker and no chain-fall in the rafters.
I've done lots of small jobs on the outside of engines but nothing on this scale and went into this with shaky expectations of success and and hopes of at least learning a thing or two. To wit: I've bit off more than I can chew AND that there are lots of generous, knowledgable, helpful folks in the help forums found on the internet that have saved me a lot of time and grief on a number of ocassions - this forum and this thread included.
I think my next move is to re-mount the engine as is, re-assemble the axle/spindle/break/wheel and either try to sell the Grand Am as is or donate it to the local high school auto shop.
Thanks again for the help and the smack.
Sorry, gmack, for that knee jerk reaction/comment from when I was in the throes of that fit of frustration and thanks, gmack, I deserved the smack. Though my wish list for a car is pretty short: a small to medium car, a reliable small to medium sized engine and a horn and windows that work. Too many Hummers and assorted gas guzzling hulks at the grocery store and it is fun and disturbing at the same time to be a spectator at the 50 acre field.
Even if I had all the requisite tools and more experience it does seem a bit extreme to have jump thru so many hoops to replace a gasket. Though I suppose that goes with the overhead cam territory. Looks like the oilpan has to go, too, to free the lower end of the timing chain housing. But the cradle part of the engine side of the lower mount is hiding some of the oil pan bolts and the jack is under the oilpan. No cherry picker and no chain-fall in the rafters.
I've done lots of small jobs on the outside of engines but nothing on this scale and went into this with shaky expectations of success and and hopes of at least learning a thing or two. To wit: I've bit off more than I can chew AND that there are lots of generous, knowledgable, helpful folks in the help forums found on the internet that have saved me a lot of time and grief on a number of ocassions - this forum and this thread included.
I think my next move is to re-mount the engine as is, re-assemble the axle/spindle/break/wheel and either try to sell the Grand Am as is or donate it to the local high school auto shop.
Thanks again for the help and the smack.
r1star
05-23-2006, 08:19 AM
You're not in as much trouble as you think!- Don't give up just yet- I've reworked four of these extremely not fun and almost identical motors: Two '94 2.3's, a '97 2.4, and recently (fingers are still bleeding) a '98 2.4- There's the stat's, now to talk you out of giving up- I know it's recommended you don't put the jack under the oil pan, but in this case the motor is light enough even with the tranny piggybacking that you just have to stick a piece of wood in between the jack and the motor- that'll give you enough clearance to lift it up and remove that front bottom mounting bracket- It's only four bolts (two 13mm and two 15mm) and then you've got the four oil pan polts behind it with the head facing down- After that you're homefree to get the timing cover off as long as you've removed the pain-in-the-but and not easily seen 8mm bolt behind the chain tensioner assembly- After this, should be pretty easy to finish out. Just make sure you take your time to get e-thing back together in order and correct, or you'll be knocking holes in the side of your garage when you "remember you forgot" some little detail in re-assembly. Hope that helps, good luck!
GrandAmNot
05-23-2006, 08:24 AM
Slade901, I don't think the heat will help much unless you can heat what the bolts is screwed into. I didn't need any heat when using the Bolt Out. The 5-piece starter Bolt Out set is Sears item # 52106. There is also a 5-piece add on set or the full set. This is the Sears web page for the set I got:
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Hand+Tools%2C+General+Purpose&pid=00952160000&vertical=TOOL&subcat=Bolt-Out%2C+Taps+%26+Dies&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes
The bolt was in between sizes so I filed down the bolt head a bit to get the Bolt Out ALL the way on.
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Hand+Tools%2C+General+Purpose&pid=00952160000&vertical=TOOL&subcat=Bolt-Out%2C+Taps+%26+Dies&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes
The bolt was in between sizes so I filed down the bolt head a bit to get the Bolt Out ALL the way on.
GrandAmNot
05-23-2006, 09:11 AM
Thanks, r1star - I have been using a block of wood between the jack and pan and the tensioner assembly is sitting here next to the computer and my cup of coffee. The plunger, spring and ratchet pieces came out.
Was thinking about building a bridge across the wheel wells or the strut mounts to hang the engine - its high enough and just need to keep it there.
PS: any idea why I have to log in once, write a note, submit reply, but have to log in again before its accepted? Maybe there's a time limit.
Was thinking about building a bridge across the wheel wells or the strut mounts to hang the engine - its high enough and just need to keep it there.
PS: any idea why I have to log in once, write a note, submit reply, but have to log in again before its accepted? Maybe there's a time limit.
Slade901
05-23-2006, 10:30 PM
GrandAmNot, thanks for the link. I hope you don't mind me piggy backing on your original post.
Does the engine needs to be raised up a bit so I can acces the 3 hard to remove bolts on side mount engine plate? I don't have a cherry picker just yet. Do have I have to raise the engine using a block of wood underneath the oil pan and how far to do I have to raise it up? I'll be taking pictures along the way so I can share it if I get it finish getting to the head gasket :(
Does the engine needs to be raised up a bit so I can acces the 3 hard to remove bolts on side mount engine plate? I don't have a cherry picker just yet. Do have I have to raise the engine using a block of wood underneath the oil pan and how far to do I have to raise it up? I'll be taking pictures along the way so I can share it if I get it finish getting to the head gasket :(
gmack221
05-23-2006, 10:55 PM
GrandAmNot, thanks for the link. I hope you don't mind me piggy backing on your original post.
Does the engine needs to be raised up a bit so I can acces the 3 hard to remove bolts on side mount engine plate? I don't have a cherry picker just yet. Do have I have to raise the engine using a block of wood underneath the oil pan and how far to do I have to raise it up? I'll be taking pictures along the way so I can share it if I get it finish getting to the head gasket :(
It helps give you more room if you raise up the motor, disconnect the motor mount that connects to your passanger side wheel well, then place a floor jack under the dog bone style motor mount on the passanger side (looks like an 8). you can raise it up until the axle shaft hits the bottom of the wheel well, but I recomend you keep it a little lower then that to ensure you don't damage the cv joint on the axle shaft. DO NOT JACK ON THE OIL PAN, it isn't strong enough to support the weight of the motor, some people get lucky by putting a piece of wood between the oil pan and the jack, but I would strongly advise against it, i've had my pan off and its only about 5mm thick, thats thin enough to crack or break under the weight. just put the jack under where the dogbone connects to the motor and you'll be fine, and don't have to use a block of wood, and no chance of breaking the oil pan.
Does the engine needs to be raised up a bit so I can acces the 3 hard to remove bolts on side mount engine plate? I don't have a cherry picker just yet. Do have I have to raise the engine using a block of wood underneath the oil pan and how far to do I have to raise it up? I'll be taking pictures along the way so I can share it if I get it finish getting to the head gasket :(
It helps give you more room if you raise up the motor, disconnect the motor mount that connects to your passanger side wheel well, then place a floor jack under the dog bone style motor mount on the passanger side (looks like an 8). you can raise it up until the axle shaft hits the bottom of the wheel well, but I recomend you keep it a little lower then that to ensure you don't damage the cv joint on the axle shaft. DO NOT JACK ON THE OIL PAN, it isn't strong enough to support the weight of the motor, some people get lucky by putting a piece of wood between the oil pan and the jack, but I would strongly advise against it, i've had my pan off and its only about 5mm thick, thats thin enough to crack or break under the weight. just put the jack under where the dogbone connects to the motor and you'll be fine, and don't have to use a block of wood, and no chance of breaking the oil pan.
GrandAmNot
05-26-2006, 06:12 AM
Gmack221 -
When I first saw the word 'dogbone' in an earlier post I figured it was the aluminium part of the upper mount. Is the 'dogbone' the cradle half of the lower mount? Just a terminology thing if it comes up again.
Slade91 -
Have raised and lowered the engine a few times depending on what nuts and bolts I was trying to get at. Pulling the caliper off the break, the spindle out of the strut, and the axle out of the spindle may or may not have been necessary but it lets you raise the engine quite a bit. I put the jack under the extension on the lower mount cradle and a piece of 2x4 or pipe between the the head and fire wall to keep the engine from tipping back.
Loosening the AC compressor to remove the lower mount cradle to get at a couple more oilpan bolts may not have been necessary either. The chain housing may have come out with just the four bolts out of the end of the oilpan. The lower right chain housing cover bolt has a nut on it for a small bracket to the AC compressor and I had only taken the nut off. The whole bolt comes out after the cover is removed. Though I suspect the chain housing isn't going back in as easy and will probably have to at least loosen the oilpan anyway.
There's not much room between the AC compressor and the radiator and bottom hose. Keep an eye on that when jacking the engine. The engine may move forward too and pinch the hose or dent/damage the radiator. Was putting pieces of 1x2 between the lower mount cradle and the the heavy rail that runs north and south just below the cradle. It seemed like a safe thing to do and the engine doesn't rock and roll so much when wrenching and I could still use the jack for other things.
Got the camshaft housing off, picked up all those mini pistons that fell off the lifters and rolled all over the place, and then the head. The big silver ring in the gasket around the cylinder nearest the chain housing was cracked in two places. Don't think I did that when lifting the head. Quita a bit of carbon (?) deposits on the other three piston tops and their domes on the cam housing. Wonder if the coolant got cooked/burned in those three cylinders or if the coolant 'cleaned' some of the deposits off that first cylinder.
Will get some prices/estimates on gaskets, bolts, head inspection, repair, and/or replacement and whatever else I might need. Don't mind the effort and education but don't want to spend too much. How much is too much? I'm not really sure yet.
When I first saw the word 'dogbone' in an earlier post I figured it was the aluminium part of the upper mount. Is the 'dogbone' the cradle half of the lower mount? Just a terminology thing if it comes up again.
Slade91 -
Have raised and lowered the engine a few times depending on what nuts and bolts I was trying to get at. Pulling the caliper off the break, the spindle out of the strut, and the axle out of the spindle may or may not have been necessary but it lets you raise the engine quite a bit. I put the jack under the extension on the lower mount cradle and a piece of 2x4 or pipe between the the head and fire wall to keep the engine from tipping back.
Loosening the AC compressor to remove the lower mount cradle to get at a couple more oilpan bolts may not have been necessary either. The chain housing may have come out with just the four bolts out of the end of the oilpan. The lower right chain housing cover bolt has a nut on it for a small bracket to the AC compressor and I had only taken the nut off. The whole bolt comes out after the cover is removed. Though I suspect the chain housing isn't going back in as easy and will probably have to at least loosen the oilpan anyway.
There's not much room between the AC compressor and the radiator and bottom hose. Keep an eye on that when jacking the engine. The engine may move forward too and pinch the hose or dent/damage the radiator. Was putting pieces of 1x2 between the lower mount cradle and the the heavy rail that runs north and south just below the cradle. It seemed like a safe thing to do and the engine doesn't rock and roll so much when wrenching and I could still use the jack for other things.
Got the camshaft housing off, picked up all those mini pistons that fell off the lifters and rolled all over the place, and then the head. The big silver ring in the gasket around the cylinder nearest the chain housing was cracked in two places. Don't think I did that when lifting the head. Quita a bit of carbon (?) deposits on the other three piston tops and their domes on the cam housing. Wonder if the coolant got cooked/burned in those three cylinders or if the coolant 'cleaned' some of the deposits off that first cylinder.
Will get some prices/estimates on gaskets, bolts, head inspection, repair, and/or replacement and whatever else I might need. Don't mind the effort and education but don't want to spend too much. How much is too much? I'm not really sure yet.
GrandAmNot
05-27-2006, 07:33 PM
Happy Memorial Day and weekend.
Had the head checked and no cracks or warping.
Can get the timing chian and head gasket kit for about $340.
Maybe I will actually drive this thing out of the garage.
Hope I can clean the block top without getting too much stuff down the oil and coolant holes.
Had the head checked and no cracks or warping.
Can get the timing chian and head gasket kit for about $340.
Maybe I will actually drive this thing out of the garage.
Hope I can clean the block top without getting too much stuff down the oil and coolant holes.
skibum1111
05-27-2006, 10:03 PM
As long as you don't put a bunch of metal down the oil galleys it shouldn't be much of a problem. Just make sure to change the oil soon after the job is done, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to flush the cooling system as well. As for the oil pan, when I changed the head on my 95, I didn't have to loosen the pan, just the bolts inside the timing cover.
To clean the top of the block off, if you have access to air tools and an air grinder, get the purple heads for it, they do an excellent job.
To clean the top of the block off, if you have access to air tools and an air grinder, get the purple heads for it, they do an excellent job.
gmack221
05-29-2006, 10:20 PM
While you have the head off you should clean/replace the oil check ball in the passanger side rear corner of the engine block. I broke mine getting it out, but it was dirty so it was good to replace it, that will be a cheap dealer part, but you may need to be there to explain which part it is. Try using a drill bit to remove it (or an easy out), its just a thin piece of sheetmetal in a round hole with a ball bearing in it, so when the oil pump quits pumping oil all of the oil doesn't flow back into the oil pan, but with years of build up it can become gummed up.
Yes your head gasket was bad, between the head and the motor you have 3 different passages, the metal rings seal the combustion chambers (cylinders), the round hole in the back corner is for the oil that feeds the cam(s) and lifters, and coolant passages (normally a triangular shape). If theres lots of carbon where the metal ring broke then you probably didn't get coolant into the cylinders, but it is possible, my guess is it was pushing exhaust into the coolant passages or out between the head and engine block.
sounds like your on your way to getting it back on the road.
Yes your head gasket was bad, between the head and the motor you have 3 different passages, the metal rings seal the combustion chambers (cylinders), the round hole in the back corner is for the oil that feeds the cam(s) and lifters, and coolant passages (normally a triangular shape). If theres lots of carbon where the metal ring broke then you probably didn't get coolant into the cylinders, but it is possible, my guess is it was pushing exhaust into the coolant passages or out between the head and engine block.
sounds like your on your way to getting it back on the road.
GrandAmNot
06-01-2006, 05:04 PM
Thanks for the tip. I see what you're talking about. If the pump stops then some of the oil will stay up with the cam and lifters? Item #80 on at least one official GM exploded view image of the engine. $22.33 at the dealer. Just let the drill bit or easy out get a bit of a grip and then just pull it out?
Can get most everything I (think) I need at Murray's Discount Auto for about $250 US for a gasket and chain kits plus bolts and such OR the official GM parts dealer's, high priced, most items sold seperatly, parts and pieces for about $550 US. Not sure if its a tough call or a no brainer. Any popular consensus on good/better/best parts manufacturers?
Did I say that I got my head examined? Its not cracked or warped.
And the one from the engine is in good shape too!
Can get most everything I (think) I need at Murray's Discount Auto for about $250 US for a gasket and chain kits plus bolts and such OR the official GM parts dealer's, high priced, most items sold seperatly, parts and pieces for about $550 US. Not sure if its a tough call or a no brainer. Any popular consensus on good/better/best parts manufacturers?
Did I say that I got my head examined? Its not cracked or warped.
And the one from the engine is in good shape too!
skibum1111
06-01-2006, 06:05 PM
Make sure its a graphite head gasket, and don't forget new head bolts. I didn't go to the dealershits for my parts, just to advanced auto, cost me around $275 for everything, bolts, timing chain set, sprockets etc., and I have a dohc motor. sohc should be a little less.
GrandAmNot
06-25-2006, 06:50 PM
Howdy folks. Been sidetracked for a while.
Pulled that oil check valve out of the block and cleaned it. It looked pretty good and the ball was clean and free to bounce up and down and so put the same valve back in.
Got the graphite headgasket, head, cam gasket and cam housing and cover back on. Put some grease on those mini pistons/lifters to keep them in place when installing the cam housing.
Water pump had some of that dexcool jelly in it and the bearing seemed a bit rough and a small o-ring was damaged (by me?). Baught a new pump and flushed out that big bent pipe that runs down under the engine and back up to the radiator. Lots of junk in there. Reminded me of the traps under a sink.
Timing chain, sprockets, guides, new tensioner, new gaskets, cover and bolts back on. Top and bottom timing gears look dead on.
Axle, spindle, rotor and caliper back together.
Next up - manifolds, fuel rail/injectors, lots of hoses and connectors.
Got one baggie marked 'engine/trans bolts' with four bolts in it. Hope I figure out where they go BEFORE a bunch of stuff is in front of where they go.
The temperature is rising and so are my expectations for success.
Thanks again, folks, for all the help.
Pulled that oil check valve out of the block and cleaned it. It looked pretty good and the ball was clean and free to bounce up and down and so put the same valve back in.
Got the graphite headgasket, head, cam gasket and cam housing and cover back on. Put some grease on those mini pistons/lifters to keep them in place when installing the cam housing.
Water pump had some of that dexcool jelly in it and the bearing seemed a bit rough and a small o-ring was damaged (by me?). Baught a new pump and flushed out that big bent pipe that runs down under the engine and back up to the radiator. Lots of junk in there. Reminded me of the traps under a sink.
Timing chain, sprockets, guides, new tensioner, new gaskets, cover and bolts back on. Top and bottom timing gears look dead on.
Axle, spindle, rotor and caliper back together.
Next up - manifolds, fuel rail/injectors, lots of hoses and connectors.
Got one baggie marked 'engine/trans bolts' with four bolts in it. Hope I figure out where they go BEFORE a bunch of stuff is in front of where they go.
The temperature is rising and so are my expectations for success.
Thanks again, folks, for all the help.
Slade901
06-25-2006, 10:29 PM
Folks, I'm still on the same path on trying to fix a coolant leak at the head. How did you manage to hold the harmonic balancer while removing the large bolt?
gmack221
06-25-2006, 11:08 PM
Folks, I'm still on the same path on trying to fix a coolant leak at the head. How did you manage to hold the harmonic balancer while removing the large bolt?
If you can just use an impact, it should come out without too much trouble that way. But if you don't have the impact or the socket, put the belt back on, put the spark plugs back in, the put the wrench on the bolt & hit it with a hammer until it break lose, the second is a harder way, but still works.
If you can just use an impact, it should come out without too much trouble that way. But if you don't have the impact or the socket, put the belt back on, put the spark plugs back in, the put the wrench on the bolt & hit it with a hammer until it break lose, the second is a harder way, but still works.
GrandAmNot
06-26-2006, 06:14 AM
Tried the socket/ratchet/hammer first also with no luck. Then tried the compressor and air gun but the old compressor was a bit short on the grunt meter. Ended up with a long ratchet extension through the balancer and under the engine or maybe between the engine and the lower mount cradle and the bigger hammer method. It worked but I wondered afterward if I got lucky not breaking the balancer.
GrandAmNot
07-06-2006, 05:01 PM
He's back! 3, 2, 1, IGNITION !! It works !!!
First try with the key got lots of healthy cranking but no start. Hmmmm
Found a couple more connectors and a vac hose tucked neatly out of the way (and out of sight). Still just the cranking. Did I not hear the fuel pump/relay cycling? Oh, yeah. Pulled that fuse when the fuel rail was off its mounts and sitting to one side. Thar she blows.
Lots of white smoke from the oily coolant that was still in the cat converter, pipe, and muffler. That's finally burned off and the exhaust is clear.
Have one elctric connector with no place to call home and the 'low coolant' light on in the dash. Low coolant sensor is in the bottom of the coolant reservoir way over by the passenger side and the extra connector is way over on the other side by the thermostat housing and only has about six inches of wire. The heat and a/c are working fine and the hoses get nice and toasty.
The not so large wiring harness splits in two and one part goes to the coils/coils housing and the other part splits again with one going to the cam housing (a cam sensor of some sort) and one going who knows where. I've looked from the top, the bottom, the front, and the back. With my eyes, my twisted fingers, a flashlight and broad daylight. No extra sockets to be found anywhere near that area. Will check under the hood of a few other Grand Ams in the neighborhood for clues.
Still have plenty of bandaids and only one small bolt left over.
Just need to put all the plastic back in the wheel wells, change that new oil and coolant again (and check that sensor in the coolant bottle), renew the registration and insurance, and go for a spin.
Any ideas on that extra connector?
Thanks to all for all your help.
Will post back after a road test or two.
Anyone wanna buy this thing?
First try with the key got lots of healthy cranking but no start. Hmmmm
Found a couple more connectors and a vac hose tucked neatly out of the way (and out of sight). Still just the cranking. Did I not hear the fuel pump/relay cycling? Oh, yeah. Pulled that fuse when the fuel rail was off its mounts and sitting to one side. Thar she blows.
Lots of white smoke from the oily coolant that was still in the cat converter, pipe, and muffler. That's finally burned off and the exhaust is clear.
Have one elctric connector with no place to call home and the 'low coolant' light on in the dash. Low coolant sensor is in the bottom of the coolant reservoir way over by the passenger side and the extra connector is way over on the other side by the thermostat housing and only has about six inches of wire. The heat and a/c are working fine and the hoses get nice and toasty.
The not so large wiring harness splits in two and one part goes to the coils/coils housing and the other part splits again with one going to the cam housing (a cam sensor of some sort) and one going who knows where. I've looked from the top, the bottom, the front, and the back. With my eyes, my twisted fingers, a flashlight and broad daylight. No extra sockets to be found anywhere near that area. Will check under the hood of a few other Grand Ams in the neighborhood for clues.
Still have plenty of bandaids and only one small bolt left over.
Just need to put all the plastic back in the wheel wells, change that new oil and coolant again (and check that sensor in the coolant bottle), renew the registration and insurance, and go for a spin.
Any ideas on that extra connector?
Thanks to all for all your help.
Will post back after a road test or two.
Anyone wanna buy this thing?
gmack221
07-07-2006, 07:55 AM
glad to hear you got it running again.
The coolant light is normal ... take the bottle lose and shake it around some, the sensor has an air bubble around it because its a bad design. Shake the bottle for a bit then drive it and keep an eye on the coolant until the light goes out (1 or 2 days).
The wire you are talking about .... there's a few things going on in that area
- oil pressure sensor (on the cam housing)
- coolant temp sensor (on the plastic water neck)
- O2 sensor (on the exhaust manifold, it has a wire that runs up near the top of the motor)
- knock sensor (back of the motor drivers side, I believe its below the exhaust manifold & has a funny looking connector (kinda like the o2 sensor but the shielding is much bigger and oval around it).
thats about all of the wires in that area I can think of, bet its the knock sensor, since its running fine.
The coolant light is normal ... take the bottle lose and shake it around some, the sensor has an air bubble around it because its a bad design. Shake the bottle for a bit then drive it and keep an eye on the coolant until the light goes out (1 or 2 days).
The wire you are talking about .... there's a few things going on in that area
- oil pressure sensor (on the cam housing)
- coolant temp sensor (on the plastic water neck)
- O2 sensor (on the exhaust manifold, it has a wire that runs up near the top of the motor)
- knock sensor (back of the motor drivers side, I believe its below the exhaust manifold & has a funny looking connector (kinda like the o2 sensor but the shielding is much bigger and oval around it).
thats about all of the wires in that area I can think of, bet its the knock sensor, since its running fine.
skibum1111
07-07-2006, 06:08 PM
Power steering. Most of the grand am quad cars have electronic variable power steering. Won't hurt it to run it that way, just steers differently.
GrandAmNot
07-09-2006, 08:41 PM
Power steering? Hmmm.
Chiltons mentions disconnecting VES connector (if VES equipped) during pump removal. Only un-mounted the pump and moved it aside during the engine work.
Finally got the car on all fours and drove it about 10 feet out of the garage and the steering was real strange. With the engine on, trans in neutral, with the steering wheel turned just a bit it pulses and shimmies and turns haltingly. Will look again for an empty socket around the pump, lines and rack. Also - had the passenger side axle out of the spindle to raise the engine more to get a socket on the rounded engine mount bolt(s). Looking from in front of the car the wheels definitely appear to be pointing in slightly different directions. Wonder if the axle isn't back in all the way?
As for the engine -
Between the flush-it-out coolant charge and the final coolant charge I removed the bottle and gave it a good and vigorous cleaning. The low coolant light in the dash is now out. Lots of wierd soft stuff coming out with the rinse water. Probably had some on the sensor.
The engine sounds great and no leaks and no more white smoke from the tail pipe but still a little bit of dripping. Hope that is just still some leftovers. Think the coolant fan isn't working and didn't see it cycling while the engine was running maybe 15 - 20 minutes with occassional reving by pulling on throttle cable. Main hose from top of radiator is/was pretty hot but no temp light on the dash. Wonder if the fan started this whole gasket business?
With the key in the on/run position (pre-ignition) -
Service Engine Soon light on
Coolant Temp light on
Low Coolant light not on, no quick flash, nada
Check Oil light on then off
Oil and Battery lights on
ABS light on then off
Break light just a quick flash
All lights out after ignition.
Guess I'll put it back on the jack stands, pull the front wheels and do a little recon.
Thanks again to all.
Edit - just a quick update.
Cooling fan does cycle. Not often. Before the 220 degree mark on the dash gauge. Main upper hose and engine seem pretty hot but not really sure how hot they usually get. Hose is too haot to keep a finger on it for more than a second.
Steering is smooth (engine on or off) with car on jacks and wheels off.
Would the steering get jerky if the alignment is far enough out?
One small coolant leak from the main bottom hose. Shoulda used a NEW clamp. Cheapskate!
The right axle/drum (the one I took apart ) is spinning.
The left side wants to but only a bit and only once in a while.
A Posi-Traction kind of thing if one caliper is snug?
Chiltons mentions disconnecting VES connector (if VES equipped) during pump removal. Only un-mounted the pump and moved it aside during the engine work.
Finally got the car on all fours and drove it about 10 feet out of the garage and the steering was real strange. With the engine on, trans in neutral, with the steering wheel turned just a bit it pulses and shimmies and turns haltingly. Will look again for an empty socket around the pump, lines and rack. Also - had the passenger side axle out of the spindle to raise the engine more to get a socket on the rounded engine mount bolt(s). Looking from in front of the car the wheels definitely appear to be pointing in slightly different directions. Wonder if the axle isn't back in all the way?
As for the engine -
Between the flush-it-out coolant charge and the final coolant charge I removed the bottle and gave it a good and vigorous cleaning. The low coolant light in the dash is now out. Lots of wierd soft stuff coming out with the rinse water. Probably had some on the sensor.
The engine sounds great and no leaks and no more white smoke from the tail pipe but still a little bit of dripping. Hope that is just still some leftovers. Think the coolant fan isn't working and didn't see it cycling while the engine was running maybe 15 - 20 minutes with occassional reving by pulling on throttle cable. Main hose from top of radiator is/was pretty hot but no temp light on the dash. Wonder if the fan started this whole gasket business?
With the key in the on/run position (pre-ignition) -
Service Engine Soon light on
Coolant Temp light on
Low Coolant light not on, no quick flash, nada
Check Oil light on then off
Oil and Battery lights on
ABS light on then off
Break light just a quick flash
All lights out after ignition.
Guess I'll put it back on the jack stands, pull the front wheels and do a little recon.
Thanks again to all.
Edit - just a quick update.
Cooling fan does cycle. Not often. Before the 220 degree mark on the dash gauge. Main upper hose and engine seem pretty hot but not really sure how hot they usually get. Hose is too haot to keep a finger on it for more than a second.
Steering is smooth (engine on or off) with car on jacks and wheels off.
Would the steering get jerky if the alignment is far enough out?
One small coolant leak from the main bottom hose. Shoulda used a NEW clamp. Cheapskate!
The right axle/drum (the one I took apart ) is spinning.
The left side wants to but only a bit and only once in a while.
A Posi-Traction kind of thing if one caliper is snug?
GrandAmNot
07-14-2006, 06:49 AM
On the road again!
(1)The extra electrical connector does go nowhere. The metal pins are dull a bit oxidized and "haven't been plugged into anything in a long time."
(2)The jerky steering when sitting still or moving at just little more than idle speed is/was a slipping power steering pump belt.
(3)The 'alignment' problem was a mis diagnosis on my part. With the spindle back in the strut, there is a fair amount of leeway in positioning the whole thing BEFORE putting in and torquing the two main thru-bolts. Pushing or pulling on the top or bottom of the rotor moves the whole strut/spindle/caliper/rotor assembly quite a bit and mostly 'sets' the camber and the geometry makes the whole assembly rotate also changing the toe-in and toe-out. That's what left the appearant alignment so far off. Part of the alignment job at the local shop included undoing the tie rod adjustments I had made after my mis-diagnosis.
A bit more trans fluid and off we go.
Thanks again to all for your help. Hope I can return the favor(s) in this forum.
Now if I can just find a good psych forum for some of my other issues.
(1)The extra electrical connector does go nowhere. The metal pins are dull a bit oxidized and "haven't been plugged into anything in a long time."
(2)The jerky steering when sitting still or moving at just little more than idle speed is/was a slipping power steering pump belt.
(3)The 'alignment' problem was a mis diagnosis on my part. With the spindle back in the strut, there is a fair amount of leeway in positioning the whole thing BEFORE putting in and torquing the two main thru-bolts. Pushing or pulling on the top or bottom of the rotor moves the whole strut/spindle/caliper/rotor assembly quite a bit and mostly 'sets' the camber and the geometry makes the whole assembly rotate also changing the toe-in and toe-out. That's what left the appearant alignment so far off. Part of the alignment job at the local shop included undoing the tie rod adjustments I had made after my mis-diagnosis.
A bit more trans fluid and off we go.
Thanks again to all for your help. Hope I can return the favor(s) in this forum.
Now if I can just find a good psych forum for some of my other issues.
bjobotts
10-19-2006, 04:22 PM
Late add on but only have to remove 4 oil pan bolts that attach to timing chain housing. Manual does not mention that or the gasket that is located behind the bottom of the timing chain housing to block...is pictured in a Mitchell manual...also timing tensioner plunger teeth must face crankshaft so plunger will not push back in and keeps constant tension on chain...always replace water pump too. Crankshaft bolt came right off for me with electric impact wrench...still it takes a miracle to remove and replace motor mount bolts so pray alot.
GrandAmNot
10-24-2006, 08:35 AM
Better late than never. Thanks.
When the head gasket first went out and I was looking at a grand or two to get it going again I baught a clean used 02 Taurus with only 53K miles.
Now that the Grand Am is back on the road again for about $250 and running fine (so far) I'm not sure I shouldn't just keep it and unload the Taurus.
4 years old vs 14 years old
Warrenty vs no warrenty
6 cylindars vs 4
CD vs cassette
Lots of room vs not so much room
$6,000 back in the bank vs not
That last one just might be the tie breaker
When the head gasket first went out and I was looking at a grand or two to get it going again I baught a clean used 02 Taurus with only 53K miles.
Now that the Grand Am is back on the road again for about $250 and running fine (so far) I'm not sure I shouldn't just keep it and unload the Taurus.
4 years old vs 14 years old
Warrenty vs no warrenty
6 cylindars vs 4
CD vs cassette
Lots of room vs not so much room
$6,000 back in the bank vs not
That last one just might be the tie breaker
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