Marine Application for an Astro

OK. I know many of you will ask...Why would you want to? But personally I think computers should remain on a desk top and not in my freekin car.

The other day I was talking to a buddy of mine that works on boats. He made mention that he'd just did a tune-up on one and had R&R'd the points, plugs, and condensor on the GM V6 in the '88 model boat. It also has a Carter Carb mounted on it!

Has anyone tried or even thought about trying to adapt this system to an Astro Van application? What pit falls should I look for? Don't care what you say. If I got a set of points and a condensor I can make it home. That stupid computer goes (and it will eventually) I'm dead in the "water." 'Scuse the pun.

My '85 Caprice wagon went 325K miles on the original ECM. My '88 Astro went 180+K with the original ECM. I had three Fieros with over a buck apiece on the odometers, and none of them ever lost an ECM. Same with two Impalas, another Astro, a GMC half-truck, an '86 Trans Am, and about everything else I've ever had that had a control system. I've worked on quite a few other vehicles, too. The only things that ever kill an ECM are: Sustained overvoltage; Shorted external outputs; Ignorance.

On the other hand, I've met and heard quite a few "technicians" who have the idea that ECMs "fail" routinely, usually about the same time their diagnostic ability fails and the "parts-changing mode" begins.

But to answer your question more directly, to install a Carter on an intake between your 262's heads would lower fuel mileage, create more starting problems, increase emissions, and put your car on the trailer if you have to pass an emission inspection. Fuel metering at various ranges of load, temperature, altitude, and speed with a carburetor is technically impossible. Detroit and Dearborn tried to do it for over a decade, and finally realized that they would have to spend billions of dollars to change to fuel injection to make more power, increase fuel mileage, and reduce emissions. Those three actually go together, since increasing combustion efficiency yields all three results. Ever wonder why modern vehciles are making gobs more power (net HP) than even the "muscle cars" of the '60s that used 104 octane and 500-inch engines, yet still get close to 30 MPG and meet emissions requirements? It's not because the iron somehow magically got better, or the cars are lighter, or the fuel is better, or we drive downhill everywhere we go. It's all due to the fuel and ignition control that is only available with a procesor monitoring and correcting conditions.

Recreational watercraft do not have to meet fuel mileage or emissions standards like motor vehicles. They get poor mileage, don't start well when cold, and lack the reliability we expect in our daily transportation.

And if you really want your answer, stop looking at your "buddy's" projects, and look at the NEW boats at the marinas. They make more power on the same displacement, get better mileage, more top end, and are a helluva lot more reliable. Want to guess how?

They also aren't as likely to be in your "buddy's" shop to be repaired, like all the older, carbureted models that he gets to work on. There is a REASON he is working on them.

OK. I know many of you will ask...Why would you want to? But personally I think computers should remain on a desk top and not in my freekin car.

The "computer" was probably in your car long before you had one on your desk. As early as 1977, GM was using closed-loop control systems for mixture and ignition control. If you had a "computer" on your desk then, it really was just a dumb terminal (like a 3270) that was cabled to the real computer in the data center. Stand alone desktop computers were not in common use until after 1980. I still have the motherboard from the original IBM PC/XT that was new in 1981. It's one of the "powerful" ones expanded to 256K of RAM. I keep it as a relic. It also cost me over $2,200 back then. I know the Commodore PET was available in late 1977, the same time cars were getting processors, but most people didn't have them. They waited for the VIC20 or 64 which was a couple years later, or built their own.


Don't care what you say.

You DID say you didn't care. It's just my 2¢

Spoken like a true believer.

I too cut my teeth on conventional asperation and ignition. I've worked on everything from Chevy's to FIAT to Delorean. I quit, not because of "ignorance" but economics. It became an excercise in futility to keep up with the changes on one mark; much less all of them. I shut down in 1980 after 15 years of working on all import marks.

It is highly unlikely my '86 Astro would pass an emissions test now. And none of the emission system has been tampered with. Fortunately after ten years they don't have to...At least in my state. As far as gas milage? Its doubtful it could get much worse if I put a lawnmower carb on it. In 1980 ECU's, EFI and EI's were not reliable. Nor was most of the other crap they were pawning off on the automotive buying public. Granted systems are more reliable and efficient on todays cars. But if we are still on the petrol I-V thirty years from now (and I hope we're not) It is doubtful you'll see many or any of these new generation cars motoring down the highway. But I'll bet you'll still see a 55 Chevy or two if they don't outlaw them. I doubt I'll be around to confirm that outcome; which at the rate we're going may be a blessing.

I'm not at all familiar with a marine engine but I'm told it has little or no emissions controls. That would mean to me no tubes or gadgets and a manual choke. That would equate to something I wouldn't have to depend on someone else to figure out why the bloody thing won't work. I depend on this van to haul my art work from show to show. I put a custom paint job on it so I plan on keeping it. Getting to the show is as necessary as getting back.

Around here they may check a code for you but they want to fix it after they do. Even then you have to eliminate that code before you can go to the next if it doesn't fix the problem. Can you say "parts changing mode?" Oh! Yeah! You did. I just like the idea that if its getting fuel, fire and compression its gotta work. If its not I like the idea of being able to have a small chance of fixing it on the road and at least limping to my destination. If a marine application would provide that then its a better system for me. If not I'm just stuck with what I have.

Oh! I've got an MG Midget with over 500,000 miles on it. Had a B210 Datsun with over 400,000 but it got backed into and T-Boned by a Cutless. And an 80 Carb Corolla with a minimum of 635,000 miles. Never been into the engine. Don't ask me what's holding the timing components together. R&R 3 igniters and 3 auto trannies. But it did pull Rural US Mail duty for over 300,000 as well as being our main transport. So 150,000 - 200,000 miles don't impress me much. I've religiously run Kendall Motor Oil in all of them.

But... But... All you need to scan error codes is a bent paper clip or short piece of wire. A carbed system might work fine, but it will likely take a lot more frequent adjustment, plug changing, and cleaning. Then again, when it comes to longevity, it's always all about the maintenance.

But... But... All you need to scan error codes is a bent paper clip or short piece of wire. A carbed system might work fine, but it will likely take a lot more frequent adjustment, plug changing, and cleaning. Then again, when it comes to longevity, it's always all about the maintenance.

OK...I stupid as well as living in the dark ages. Where do these codes read out?

Here's the process in a nutshell: (Well, a rather large nut...)

First, you'll need to acquire a GM OBD I ECM Diagnostic Trouble Code Retrieval Tool (commonly known as a paper clip). Form this wire into a ‘U’ shape.

With the engine and ignition turned off, locate the ALDL connector under the dash, usually in the driver's foot well area. There could be a small rectangular cover over the access hole in the lower dash trim, or the connector could be completely below the dash.

http://72.19.213.157/files/ALDLPlug.jpg

Insert a tool as described above (paper clip) into the 'A' and 'B' terminals on the ALDL connector:

http://72.19.213.157/files/ALDL.gif

WITHOUT STARTING the engine, turn the ignition to the "RUN" position. Don't be alarmed if the vehicle has an electric cooling fan(s) and it begins to operate, or you hear the IAC stepper motor clicking, or if the engine is carbureted and the M/C solenoid begins clicking. Those are all normal while in this Field Service Mode. Watch the Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) - it will begin to flash. This is also commonly called the "Service Engine Soon" or "SES" lamp. The first code will flash three times, and will usually be a code '12'. This is encoded by one flash of the lamp, a brief pause, then two successive flashes of the lamp. Each code will repeat three times, so you should see a "Code 12" flash three times. Any other error codes will follow in numerical order, and each code should flash three times. After all codes have been displayed three times, the "Code 12" will again flash three times, then all other codes will follow as described earlier. This cycle will continue until the jumper is removed or the ignition is turned off.

After you have made a note of all error codes, turn off the ignition and remove the jumper immediately. If you forget to remove the jumper and attempt to start the engine with it in place, you could damage the ECM. For this reason you should remove it immediately.

Once you have a note of all error codes, check this file for the decoding:

GM Error Codes.pdf (http://72.19.213.157/files/GMError.pdf).

You'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/alternate.html) to open/print the file.

Codes are typically stored on GM ECMs for the past 50 engine start/run cycles. If you generated an error code within that span, it should still be there. If the battery or ECM power was removed for any reason, the ECM memory will be cleared.

Thanks for the info. I'll save it for future reference and I'll give it a try tomorrow. I put about 100 miles on it last weekend with now problems. Knock wood, maybe the water pump took care of the problem. Sure wish mine had guages like yours. Thanks again.

Those "gauges" are more of a factory optional trim package level instead of a real instrument. The only ones that are really ever close are the voltmeters. The factory fuel gauges are not linearly calibrated, the factory tachometers typically read high after a few years, the speedometers are a compromise of what VSS/speedo driven gear and tailshaft drive gear combination gives the closest indication when combined with an axle ratio and stock tire size, and the temperature and oil pressure gauges are not calibrated, but relative. The only good thing is that once you figure out what is "normal", any change is more noticable.

Let us know how it goes.