Dexcool likely cause of leaking gaskets..

Interesting article..

http://www.noln.net/features/feature3.html

Do you know if any of the Plaintiff's have prevailed. A lot of that litigation has been going on for years. It is hard to prove those cases against Dexcool because millions of GM vehicles still use it. :dunno:

Do you know if any of the Plaintiff's have prevailed. A lot of that litigation has been going on for years. It is hard to prove those cases against Dexcool because millions of GM vehicles still use it. :dunno:

Hi Bnaylor:
I found several leads on 'Google' search engine, just by typing in '..GM faulty manifold gaskets...' I have no idea how far any of those 'law suits' are progressing.
I keep now a close look (every day) on the level and color of the Dexcol coolant that I have in engine for two years now. So far, no problem (but God knows what is going on inside of the engine coolant passages).
I wonder what negative, potentialy damaging results I could create, if I have the cooling system flushed, drive for one week perhaps only on distilled water than flush again and refill it with the other (blue) coolant?
I suppose that the other coolant has similar properties, but perhaps not so aggressive.
The knowledge that I have a 'ticking time bomb' in the engine that will cost me around $ 1.200 Canadian just to dissarm it, is not a good feeling.
The problem is that if I take the car to rad shop and have the pressure test done etc, those people know by now about the GM cars gaskets, Dexcol problem and will undoubtably tell me that my car is already affected and the gaskets ought to be changed.
What is your opinion Bnaylor?
After all you are 'on the same boat'.

Hi Bnaylor:
I found several leads on 'Google' search engine, just by typing in '..GM faulty manifold gaskets...' I have no idea how far any of those 'law suits' are progressing.
I keep now a close look (every day) on the level and color of the Dexcol coolant that I have in engine for two years now. So far, no problem (but God knows what is going on inside of the engine coolant passages).
I wonder what negative, potentialy damaging results I could create, if I have the cooling system flushed, drive for one week perhaps only on distilled water than flush again and refill it with the other (blue) coolant?
I suppose that the other coolant has similar properties, but perhaps not so aggressive.
The knowledge that I have a 'ticking time bomb' in the engine that will cost me around $ 1.200 Canadian just to dissarm it, is not a good feeling.
The problem is that if I take the car to rad shop and have the pressure test done etc, those people know by now about the GM cars gaskets, Dexcol problem and will undoubtably tell me that my car is already affected and the gaskets ought to be changed.
What is your opinion Bnaylor?
After all you are 'on the same boat'.

My opinion is to work around the Dexcool problem or preempt it. There are alternative coolants on the market. I switched to Prestone Extended Life (yellow container) and flushed out the Dexcool. Whats nice about the Prestone XL is it is fully compatible with Dexcool and based on the same Organic Acid Technology (OAT). So if there is any residual left no problems.

BTW - It is green in color.

Just do a complete cooling system flush before switching over and make sure all air is bled out of the system using the bleeder valve.

If nothing else it will give you peace of mind.

Hi Bnaylor:
Thanks for the advice. I am getting that coolant you reccomend today.
For the flush, is it enough to disconnect the lower radiator hose and run a tab water thru garden hose thru the system? Where the hell is the breading screw lacated?
I found a yet another forum that adresses the Dexcool and its corrosive properties, read bellow.
Thanks again
Peter


Wow, a topic that I know about..... (forum link)

One theory of why the intake gasket fails is that the Dexcool anti freeze is the problem. Dexcool has been a problem with many of the GM vehicles since 1996 and yes, there is a class action that has already started. I was actually the expert in the case that collected the samples and did lots of the research.

The most commonly reported damages included corroded, rusted and clogged radiators, eroded aluminum cylinder heads, eroded water pumps and thermostat housings, rotten and leaking radiator hoses, leaky heater cores and freeze plugs, corroded radiator caps, deposits within the cooling system, damaged and leaky cooling system gaskets, damage to the head and intake gaskets, chronic overheating, damage to the engine, oil in engine coolant system, leaking coolant, deposits on the overflow tanks and sludge in the engine coolant system.

Over thirty-four million vehicles have been sold and continue to be sold by General Motors containing Dexcool. In many of these vehicles, the problems in the engine coolant system do not become apparent to owners until after the warranty has expired. General Motors has not agreed to repair vehicles not in warranty, recall vehicles, replace Dexcool with traditional coolants, change the maintenance schedule to include inspection of the engine coolant system, replace the coolant or inform owners.

If you do a search on the Internet for Dexcool and class action you will find numerous attorneys that are in the process of a class action against GM. Have a mechanic check your vehicle to make sure this is the actual problem with your vehicle.

Hi Bnaylor:
Thanks for the advice. I am getting that coolant you reccomend today.
For the flush, is it enough to disconnect the lower radiator hose and run a tab water thru garden hose thru the system? Where the hell is the breading screw located?

On the bleeder it is either on the thermostat housing or on the heater return line located at the top of the water pump. It should be a brass fitting.

On the flush you'll need to get the heater core, engine and radiator so the best thing to do is get a Prestone Flush Kit which has a tee adapter that you will splice in at the incoming heater hose going to the heater core. The inlet will be the bottom line at the firewall so check there and that will be the right hose. You can leave the adapter installed for any future work.

The biggest problem will be figuring out how much new coolant to add to get for example a 50/50 mix. I use distilled water and do a premix in another container. When flushing and then draining via the radiator drain plug there will be water left over in the engine block. There is a block drain located at the front and rear block. The rear one will be hard to get at to drain the block. The front should be accessible but then again it is not necessary to remove the engine drain plugs. You can get a cheapy cooling system tester later to figure out if you have the right freeze or boil over protection.

The radiator drain plug is located on the driver's side of the radiator engine side. The drain plug will turn about 1/4 inch counterclockwise and coolant will start draining out. You can use the end of a 1/4" drive socket ratchet or handle to open or close the radiator drain plug. It fits just right. BTW- It is cheap plastic and fragile. You will need to remove a plastic splash guard under the radiator for access the the radiator drain plug and to catch old coolant.

After doing the flush, draining what is left, and refilling you can perform the air bleed. Engine should be brought up to operating temperature first and make sure thermostat opens. Re-check coolant level in radiator and the coolant reservoir afterwards. About a day later you can do a final bleed to make sure all air is out of the system.

BTW - After flushing I would still undo the lower and upper radiator hoses to help get old coolant out although draining at the radiator will suffice. Some people remove the thermostat before flushing. I use my garden hose and regular tap water supply during flushing.

[QUOTE=bnaylor3400]On the bleeder it is either on the thermostat housing or on the heater return line located at the top of the water pump. It should be a brass fitting......

Thank you very much Bnaylor !
Your instruction is not just a simple case of removing a lower radiator hose. I will have to ask one of our college automotive technician to give me a hand with this. He owes me a favour, I welded a cracked aluminum frame on his terrain motor bike.
I am sure that more participants on this forum will be happy to read your '...how to do the coolant change...' the right way.
Thanks again
Peter

[QUOTE=bnaylor3400]On the bleeder it is either on the thermostat housing or on the heater return line located at the top of the water pump. It should be a brass fitting......

Thank you very much Bnaylor !
Your instruction is not just a simple case of removing a lower radiator hose. I will have to ask one of our college automotive technician to give me a hand with this. He owes me a favour, I welded a cracked aluminum frame on his terrain motor bike.
I am sure that more participants on this forum will be happy to read your '...how to do the coolant change...' the right way.
Thanks again
Peter

Not a problem Peter. I barter out help all the time with my friends.

Off topic question, when you had all of your tranny problems did you ever get a flush or fluid exchange performed. If so, was that before or after all the problems started.

[quote=bnaylor3400]On the bleeder it is either on the thermostat housing or on the heater return line located at the top of the water pump. It should be a brass fitting......

Thank you very much Bnaylor !
Your instruction is not just a simple case of removing a lower radiator hose. I will have to ask one of our college automotive technician to give me a hand with this. He owes me a favour, I welded a cracked aluminum frame on his terrain motor bike.
I am sure that more participants on this forum will be happy to read your '...how to do the coolant change...' the right way.
Thanks again
Peter


Hi, If you have an auto tech friend that can help, perhaps he has access to a cooling system evacuator/fill tool? This tool uses compressed air and a venturi to creat a vacuum in the entire cooling system and draws the coolant in via the vacuum. If you do it correctly and pull 25 inches of vacuum on the system and draw in your coolant, you will be virtually air-lock free and it works very nicely.

As far as Dex-Cool is concerned, unless you have a mid-to-late 90's Jimmy or Blazer, most of us don't have much to worry about. Not to say that there is no problem with Dex-Cool, but the majority of cases involved those Jimmy/Blazers as the factory fill included some air, which of course is part of the problem. If you have the sludge, it will show up on the radiator neck under the cap. I have been involved in many warrany flushes using GM's multiple page bulletin, and some pretty strong flush agent GM recommends (along with many warnings about touching the stuff) and even under warranty GM paid something like 3.5 or 4 hours to the tech to do it, so you can imagine the procedure! In my day to day service work I see very little Dex-Cool contamination, save for the aforementioned Jimmy/Blazer models. That having been said, I would not deter anyone from changing their coolant to ease their mind, especially since it is probably due for a flush anyway. Look into the tool though, it works great and there are many tool suppliers that make one.

[QUOTE=Peter Solarik]

Not a problem Peter. I barter out help all the time with my friends.

Off topic question, when you had all of your tranny problems did you ever get a flush or fluid exchange performed. If so, was that before or after all the problems started.

My trans problem started with harsh shifting and whining sound. The trans shop diagnosed the PC (something like that) valve, the one which is made of two dissimilar materials. I had the valve changed, I guess they had to change the fluid as well, since the cover was off. Than after about one month, the car quit on me in the middle of intersection completely. Took it to the same trans shop. Had to have the trans rebuild. I don't know what kind of fluid they used. Since than the car runs OK, but I heard some disturbing stories about this shop.

My trans problem started with harsh shifting and whining sound. The trans shop diagnosed the PC (something like that) valve, the one which is made of two dissimilar materials. I had the valve changed, I guess they had to change the fluid as well, since the cover was off. Than after about one month, the car quit on me in the middle of intersection completely. Took it to the same trans shop. Had to have the trans rebuild. I don't know what kind of fluid they used. Since than the car runs OK, but I heard some disturbing stories about this shop.

Hi Peter,

Yeah I recall all the pics and the go around with Flatrater. I'm quite sure new ATF fluid was put in considering you have to drain it before pulling the side cover assembly and replacing the PCS solenoid otherwise you'd have a big mess. I would assume they used the right ATF - Dextron-III.

Your situation was unusual considering the low mileage you had on the car. As least it is hanging in there.

Anyways, I completed a UIM/LIM job on my son's Alero with 3.4L (38K miles). When we drained the cooling system the Dexcool looked like it came out of a new bottle. Not an ounce of deteriation or any contaminants, etc. The lower intake manifold and throttle body gaskets looked good too. Of course, I did install a new gasket set. BTW - The work was not done due to any problems. My son wanted more performance so we put in polished and ported upper and lower intake manifolds from APoC along with a RSM Racing 62mm throttle body. I stayed with the Dexcool in this one.

Dexcool is just like any other fluid, you have to do the require maintanance on it. As long as you do the maintanance you should not have any big issues. Just like cars in the 70's if you ignore maintanance, it would have issues also. You just can not mix dexcool with regular yellow, or you are going to have issues with gaskets, radiator, heater core, and such.

Dexcool is just like any other fluid, you have to do the require maintanance on it. As long as you do the maintanance you should not have any big issues. Just like cars in the 70's if you ignore maintanance, it would have issues also. You just can not mix dexcool with regular yellow, or you are going to have issues with gaskets, radiator, heater core, and such.

Hello 'Bravo Garage' !
You sound reasuring and I don't know for myself now to what to believe.
I did not have a chance to change the fluid yet and after reading your input, I will leave it in.
Everybody has a different opinion. I think that GM would like your reasoning.

Any coolant has the same problems. I am constantly asked by customers to check the freeze point of coolant yet that is'nt the most dangerous thing with coolant. Over time the coolant turns into an acid which eats the metal. It's not the coolant but the acid in the coolant that destroys the metal.

A simple chack on the acid level of coolant is to buy the PH strips and test it. When the acid level gets high flush the coolant, all of the coolant and not just the rad. If you have a mulitmeter at home take one meter lead and stick it into the coolant and take the over to the negative battery post. Set the meter to read volts if the meter reads more than .5 volts flush the system. When the coolant builds up acid it turns into a big battery which starts eating the metals of the engine. it's not the dexcool eating the engine.

as for the 3.1l engine family the coolant leaks located on the lower intake manifold are simple. Torque is causing the gasket problems. Under torque the gaskets and coolant will leak out of it. Over torque the bolts and you crack the gaskets. Dexcool will not crack or break the gaskets only bolt torque will cause it. Many times I have resealed an intake to find the 4 corner bolts loose.

Any coolant has the same problems. I am constantly asked by customers to check the freeze point of coolant yet that is'nt the most dangerous thing with coolant. Over time the coolant turns into an acid which eats the metal. It's not the coolant but the acid in the coolant that destroys the metal.

A simple chack on the acid level of coolant is to buy the PH strips and test it. When the acid level gets high flush the coolant, all of the coolant and not just the rad. If you have a mulitmeter at home take one meter lead and stick it into the coolant and take the over to the negative battery post. Set the meter to read volts if the meter reads more than .5 volts flush the system. When the coolant builds up acid it turns into a big battery which starts eating the metals of the engine. it's not the dexcool eating the engine.

as for the 3.1l engine family the coolant leaks located on the lower intake manifold are simple. Torque is causing the gasket problems. Under torque the gaskets and coolant will leak out of it. Over torque the bolts and you crack the gaskets. Dexcool will not crack or break the gaskets only bolt torque will cause it. Many times I have resealed an intake to find the 4 corner bolts loose.


Interesting and nice to know info Flatrater. Just want to run this by you but are the torque specs and procedure in the GM TSB for 3.1L/3.4L correct and do you recommend going with it? Posted below.

And I ran the multimeter test in my '99 Regal LS. The reading was toggling but was a high of 194 mV DC (milli volts) so I am assuming its OK as far as conductivity. BTW - The Dexcool in it is only about two years old and it still has the original UIM plenum, UIM gasket, throttle body gasket, and LIM gaskets.



Engine Oil or Coolant Leak (Install New Intake
Manifold Gasket) # 03-06-01-010B - (10/24/2003)


Engine Oil or Coolant Leak (Install New Intake Manifold Gasket)

2000-2003 Buick Century

2002-2003 Buick Rendezvous

1996 Chevrolet Lumina APV

1997-2003 Chevrolet Venture

1999-2001 Chevrolet Lumina

1999-2003 Chevrolet Malibu, Monte Carlo

2000-2003 Chevrolet Impala

1996-2003 Oldsmobile Silhouette

1999 Oldsmobile Cutlass

1999-2003 Oldsmobile Alero

1996-1999 Pontiac Trans Sport

1999-2003 Pontiac Grand Am, Montana

2000-2003 Pontiac Grand Prix

2001-2003 Pontiac Aztek

with 3.1L or 3.4L V-6 Engine (VINs J, E - RPOs LG8, LA1)

This bulletin is being revised to change the model Information. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 03-06-01-O10A (Section 06 - Engine).


Condition

Some owners may comment on an apparent oil or coolant leak. Additionally, the comments may range from spots on the driveway to having to add fluids.

Cause

Intake manifold may be leaking allowing coolant, oil or both to leak from the engine.

Correction

Install a new design intake manifold gasket. The material used in the gasket has been changed in order to improve the sealing qualities of the gasket. When replacing the gasket, the intake manifold bolts must also be replaced and torqued to a revised specification. The new bolts will come with a pre-applied threadlocker on them.

Notice

An oil leak may result if the vertical bolts are not tightened before the diagonal bolts.


Diagonal bolts may require a crows foot to tighten.

Tighten

1. Tighten the vertical lower intake manifold bolts (1) to 7 N.m (62 lb in).

2. Tighten the diagonal lower intake manifold bolts (2) to 7 N.m (62 lb in).

3. Tighten the vertical lower intake manifold bolts (1) to 13 N.m (115 lb in).

4. Tighten the diagonal lower intake manifold bolts (2) to 25 N.m (18 lb ft).

Parts Information

Parts are currently available from GMSPO.

yes use the torque specs listed. It's very critical for the gaskets.