My friend Mike's Talon setup plans.... opinions please!

Ok, so most of you are familiar with my friend Mike and his POS Talon. Well we are seriously reconsidering his plans of a rebuild, DSMlink, 50 or 60 trim, and everything in between. Hes getting a parts car, its a 92 AWD shell, no drivetrain except 4 bolt rear, eprom w/ palm hookup, and Apex springs with AGX's. So heres the new plan, mainly due to money: SAFC 2 with pocket logger (all we need is the software, the ecu is ready for a palm pilot and we have one), Evo III 16g, 550's, and a walbro 190. He already has 3" turbo back, and needs to put in his boost controller and FMIC (10x24x2.5, still needs piping). Does that sound like a decent setup? We are thinking about not going DSM link because its ~$600 then we need to buy a laptop besides, where with the SAFC all we need is the SAFC (used? only like $250 new anyway) and all we need for the pocket logger is the software. 550's should be ok right? The 550's and 190 should suffice with the Evo III right? Thanks guys.

EDIT: Please dont tell me how much better DSMlink is, with his funds, its just not an option.

680s at least, if you plan on maxing out that turbo at least. Sounds like you have a setup good for ~300-350hp. Also its the same thing I have.

>300 but <350 is the goal. Thanks pr_ricer, anyone else?

550s are enough fuel for a 16g unless it's high boost. To make above 300, you'll need high boost. Here's the problem, you can't run 680s on a SAFC-2. Some people say you will, but they are just thinking about injector compensation. Of course it has enough compensation, but the problems is how much airflow the ecu sees. It doesn't see that much so it advances the timing alot, which causes knock, which causes the timing to be retarded severely, AND hurts the engine / headgasket especially.

If he can deal with less than 300, then 550s and safc2 will be fine, if he really wants to squeeze everything out of that turbo, he will need the rest of the boltons, including cams and smim, along with a better engine management system to put down 350+. Making that much power with the evoiii is very rare, and difficult.

what if you use a gm maft and the safc? Can't he use 680's then?

yes, but it would be difficult. He would have 0 in the injectors with the maft, THEN tune on SAFC. Any errors from 0'ing in the injectors would continually cause problems. Not to mention the price of dsmlink if probably less than the GM MAFT, GM Translator, and SAFC2

yes, but it would be difficult. He would have 0 in the injectors with the maft, THEN tune on SAFC. Any errors from 0'ing in the injectors would continually cause problems. Not to mention the price of dsmlink if probably less than the GM MAFT, GM Translator, and SAFC2
Not really, I have about 400 dollars in all the stuff I need for mine. :)

Smart shopping and it can be done for less. lol :wink:

well you got a good deal, but 400 vs 500 for link is no brainer. That combo doesn't do a quarter of what the link does.

well you got a good deal, but 400 vs 500 for link is no brainer. That combo doesn't do a quarter of what the link does.
But they still gotta shell out money for a laptop too if they don't already have one... And who knows how much more that could cost them. :uhoh:

Yeah, 80% of the decision to go with the SAFC and pocketlogger is due to the cheapness. It will be $600 for DSMlink then $300 for a cheap ass laptop or $250 for SAFC and we already have the palm pilot and the ECU we will get has the hook ups for it. How much is "high boost"? He does have the stock head gasket, so high boost really isnt an option anyway. I have a feeling he'll be fine with 250 or so.

If he's fine with 250, then safc2, 550's will be good, just check the injector duty cycle.

You made 250 on 17lbs of boost and a crappy tune right crunchy? How much boost will the stock HG hold?

The way i see it is if you have DSMLINK or want to get it go the biggest you can on injectors. I was on DSMLINK forum and this guy is running 1600cc inj and he said they run sweet with dsmlink. I know you do not have it but its the way to go man. Your spending this much. Might as well do it right and get dsmlink.

Thats just the thing... we already have a pocket logger, all we need is the SAFC. Later when he is making more, DSM link might happen, but for now we gotta make due with what we have.

You made 250 on 17lbs of boost and a crappy tune right crunchy? How much boost will the stock HG hold?


I made 250/295 with a boost spike to around 22, then boost tapered off to around 17, that's why my curve was all messed up, cams will fix this. It wasn't a crappy tune, it was a safe tune. I need this car to last, so we were very conservative with timing and fuel. It could have easily made more power, but that would have just been a number, I care more about the tune the car sees every day.

The stock headgasket is usually good to about 21psi or so. BUT, knock will kill a headgasket MUCH faster than running a lot of boost.

Just remember that with the safc you can't retard knock, so once you start knocking, the computer will retard timing like a mofo. It's doable, but the engine will have to be in great shape with a good tune.

My certified low 11 second laptop was 50 bucks ;) You might be surprised by howlittle computing power is required to run DSMlink, it doesn't take much at all. Mine is a 475 mhz with 64 mb ram and windows 98. Had to bondo the cracked lid.

I would not hesitate to run a stock gasket on anything up to 30 psi, even on a stroker. Metal HGs might stand up a little better to high knock, but I would rather have a HG go than something else ;)

are you talking about a completely stock longblock with stock headgasket and stock head bolts??? I have always heard not to run that high, I've had two local buddies both blow their gaskets because they were running around 25psi on everything, but little knock, and plenty of fuel.

For a 6 bolt, stock bolts aren't too bad, but ARPs should be a no brainer anyway at ~75 bucks. For 7 bolts with stretchy bolts, ARPs are mandatory regardless of boost IMO. Though the EVOs tend to do well with them to ~28 psi on the stock turbo dropping to 21 by redline, running 11s and making something over 400 whp. I lost my HG however, two of the stock stretchy bolts were loose when I got the valve cover off. Poeple have run over 30 psi and made over 600 whp on stock composite gasket with ARPs. They are also almost impossible to fuck up for newbies, while metal HGs require some special considerations to install properly (properly = will last longer than a stock composite gasket). In my opinion people should stick to the stock type gasket for as long as possible... It can also act like a fuse and keep you from breaking pistons. HGs are much easier to change ;)

so, with nearly 100k on a stock 7 bolt longblock, is it time to upgrade to ARP bolts? Is it even worth it considering with a headgasket that can't have too much left? 18 psi daily, 21 or so on some nights, I am debating on whether or not to get the ARP bolts now,and keep this stock headgasket as long as possible, or to just replace it with a cometic now(all proper preparations would be made, mirror finish, etc...) With ARP's, and a good tune, and a 10 year old stock headgasket with 100k, 25psi for track and dyno would be fine?

You can run it as long is it still works, but I have a severe distrust for stretchy bolts. They give the stock HG a bad name. If you don't mind doing the work, it's good preventative maintainence. Since you have to pay for a HG, you can wait until this one fails and do it then, or pay up and do the HG and studs now. Either the cost and the work will be the same. If you are set on a cometic and need to resurface the block, I would wait until you do a full rebuild/build, not worth pulling the motor, disassembling, resurfacing, reassembling, and risking CW. IMO.

Stretchy head bolts? Thats the damnedest thing I have ever heard in my life. Some certain Mitsu engineers must have had the good shit that day ;).

most head bolts are "streachy". What that is, is a torque to yeild bolt

:lol:, I thought that they were actually strechy, like rubber or something. Or had a rubber section in them.

Haha not quite

It does sound strange, but it's the way its meant to be. On my site there is a page about ARP headstud info, I explain why the bolts are meant to stretch in there, if anyone is interested.

yes, but it would be difficult. He would have 0 in the injectors with the maft, THEN tune on SAFC. Any errors from 0'ing in the injectors would continually cause problems. Not to mention the price of dsmlink if probably less than the GM MAFT, GM Translator, and SAFC2

You obviously havent done much research on the GM MAF translator. If you have an S-AFC, that is what you use to tune. The translator is exactly the same as an AFC but you cant visually "see" your settings and there are less RPM points to set. So there for it is less useful than the AFC. When used with DSMLink or an AFC, you set the translator to 450cc injectors on the base knob and leave the low-mid-high knobs at 0. This has no error effect on anything the AFC does. This will actually allow you to run a larger injector with an AFC. You can literally run 950s (set the base to 950cc injectors) and have you AFC settings at 0 and fine tune with the AFC. Makes it a lot easier to use the AFC with larger injectors. But still DSMLink is much better and user friendly. Same goes with DSMLink, you set the translator to 450cc injectors on the base knob and set what injectors you have in DSMLink. Then fine tune from there.

If you have any other fuel controller, using the translator settings would be stupid and make tuning much more difficult.

The way i see it is if you have DSMLINK or want to get it go the biggest you can on injectors. I was on DSMLINK forum and this guy is running 1600cc inj and he said they run sweet with dsmlink. I know you do not have it but its the way to go man. Your spending this much. Might as well do it right and get dsmlink.

I run PTE 1600cc injectors using DSMLink and it runs like it's stock. Global = -72% and my dead time is 450. Idles perfect and havent run into any problems yet. @ 30psi on my T70 the injector duty cycle is at 47% :D I dont think I'll ever max out the injectors and will probably never upgrade from DSMLink. (Except when they come out with version 3. It will be close to a stand alone anyways)

If you want to make 350hp on a 16g, you wont get there on an AFC. You dont have the timing map or cams to get you there. You will need cams and DSMLink for sure. I made 275whp @ 15psi on the EvoIII16g just because I was over running my stock fuel pump. I also had a lot more modifications than he does. I hope he is prepared to be upset. My suggestion is do it once and do it right. Even if he has to save up a little more and wait a little longer to get DSMLink, it will save him money.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say about the MAFt/AFC combo. MAFt and SAFC both alter the airflow signal in the same exact way, so both will have the same exact effect at the ECU. Doesn't matter if you do the correction/tuning in the MAFt or the AFC. You will get more range of adjustment, perhaps that is what you are refering to. Idle and timing will be equally affected though.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say about the MAFt/AFC combo. MAFt and SAFC both alter the airflow signal in the same exact way, so both will have the same exact effect at the ECU. Doesn't matter if you do the correction/tuning in the MAFt or the AFC. You will get more range of adjustment, perhaps that is what you are refering to. Idle and timing will be equally affected though.


What I am trying to get at is with the Translator/AFC combo you can run any size injector you want. You arent restricted to 680/720s with just the AFC.

What you have to do is set your injector size in the Translator box. Say you want to run 950cc injectors. You set the BASE knob at 7 and the AUX knob at 7. With that set in the translator, you can have your settings in the AFC set at 0.

The only reason I know this is I got curious one day and tried it. I was wondering why they put all setting for the injector sizes up to 1000cc I think, maybe a little bigger I forget. My injectors were 950s (thats why I know the settings :)) so I set everything in the AFC to 0, put the BASE knob to 7 and the AUX knob to 7, left LOW-MID-HIGH knobs at 0. Turned the car over and it fired right up. It idled perfectly. It was running a little rich but nothing that couldnt be fixed with the fine tuning of the AFC.

What I am trying to get at is with the Translator/AFC combo you can run any size injector you want. You arent restricted to 680/720s with just the AFC.

What you have to do is set your injector size in the Translator box. Say you want to run 950cc injectors. You set the BASE knob at 7 and the AUX knob at 7. With that set in the translator, you can have your settings in the AFC set at 0.

The only reason I know this is I got curious one day and tried it. I was wondering why they put all setting for the injector sizes up to 1000cc I think, maybe a little bigger I forget. My injectors were 950s (thats why I know the settings :)) so I set everything in the AFC to 0, put the BASE knob to 7 and the AUX knob to 7, left LOW-MID-HIGH knobs at 0. Turned the car over and it fired right up. It idled perfectly. It was running a little rich but nothing that couldnt be fixed with the fine tuning of the AFC.
That is exactly what I am going to do with my setup, afc/maft combo. If it works so well then why has everyone still tried to get me to switch over to DSMLink?

Because it doesn't work so well :) You can run injectors that require more than 50% adjustment, but you are still going to have all of the other problems you would with just the AFC. Airflow signal is way too low, timing is too high, idle is less than ideal, etc. The AFC and MAFt work in exactly the same way. You could achieve the same thing (being able to run huge injectors) by running two AFCs :D

To give a quick example, lets look at 950s. Correction factor alone is -53%, so the AFC certainly is inadequate. With a MAFt and AFC, it's easily compensated for. However, the airflow signal is still going to be at LEAST 53% lower than it actually is. Airflow will need to be over 75 lbs/min at 7500 rpm to still be over 2.1 gram/rev at the ECU ;) I think it's safe to say timing would end up in the upper 20s with a more normal airflow of say 40-50 lbs/min.

So yes, you can compensate for lager injectors with the MAFt/AFC combo, but no, it's still no where near the same as DSMlink. Just a fancier AFC.

Exactly... I agree! It is still lying to the computer and with that much fuel/air flow I wouldnt trust it at all. The only reason I did it was to see if it worked.

You obviously havent done much research on the GM MAF translator. If you have an S-AFC, that is what you use to tune. The translator is exactly the same as an AFC but you cant visually "see" your settings and there are less RPM points to set. So there for it is less useful than the AFC. When used with DSMLink or an AFC, you set the translator to 450cc injectors on the base knob and leave the low-mid-high knobs at 0. This has no error effect on anything the AFC does. This will actually allow you to run a larger injector with an AFC. You can literally run 950s (set the base to 950cc injectors) and have you AFC settings at 0 and fine tune with the AFC. Makes it a lot easier to use the AFC with larger injectors. But still DSMLink is much better and user friendly. Same goes with DSMLink, you set the translator to 450cc injectors on the base knob and set what injectors you have in DSMLink. Then fine tune from there.



that's pretty much what I said...dial in the injectors, then tune with the safc, but in practice it doesn't work that well

After I get my DSMLINK in the mail guess who is gonna have an AFCII for sale?

yup me!

how much fori t

You brought back a thread over a month old. :nono:

Hey Thor.... I realize this is an old thread, but I came across a bit of useful info. If your main deterrent to going with DSMLink is that you'll have to buy a laptop, you should look at the option of running DSMLink off your palm pilot. Apparently, a DSMLink enthusiast by the name of Hal Landry wrote software to run link on a palm pilot with Palm OS 3.5 or higher, you can find more info on the DSMLink forums.

You can get laptops on ebay very cheap these days with more than enough requirements to run DSMlink, and you are right, you can also run it on palm pilot if you HAVE to. Still, nothing should deterr you away from link, it rules all.

Thanks man, but I will have a laptop for my DSMlink. Mike is just a broke ass. I honestly doubt that he will get any farther on modding his car, he just cant hold onto money, doesnt work overly much, and really wants to move out.

Tell him to give his money to you and you will "save it" for him :licka:

Yeah, dont think that will work ;). He used to want me to help him so he would tell me what he wants to buy and I would help him decided if he really wanted to do that or save for his car (this was a while ago, before he bought his car). I thought it worked ok, atleast until I realized he was depositing $200-$250 a check and still had X amount of dollars in the bank after each week. Whatever I guess, he's going to have to learn a really hard money lesson here in a few months. Moving out and $2000 stroker on $800 a month from McDonalds isnt really going to work.

800 a month? Ah, the good old days... My monthly bills more than triple that figure. :crying: