'92 Euro ignition problem?

I posted the following question and got a prompt response from richtazz:
I have a '92 euro with 234k. she starts right up, idles fine for about 2 min, then starts missing badly, finally dying altogether. then she starts right back up and everything is fine after that. its a mystery. no codes. fuel filter is new. can you narrow my search? Thank you!
Rich said try the idle air control valve. I haven't done anything yet. Now its progressed to sometimes not wanting to start at all. Just cranks but won't fire. When it does, it misses badly and sounds like someone is flicking a kill switch off and on. Ususally once it dies you restart and everything is fine. Has this ever happened to any one? I don't know if the problem is fuel or spark. Thing is, it does not always do this. Sometimes it just starts and runs normally. I don't want to go broke buying parts so I was wondering where to start. Again, thank you for your help!

Me again. You can also try a tap test on the ECM. If you tap on it and the car stalls, then the ECM is bad.

Thank you Rich! I'll try it. Where is the ECM located?

It's under the hood, passenger side, under the black plastic cover. Once you get the cover off, you'll see it just ahead of the wheel well. You may have to remove the radiator overflow bottle to get the cover out of the way.

:wtf: Well I'm back. Rich: Thank you for your suggestions but the problem continues. I removed and cleaned the IAC valve and EGR valve but it made no difference. I also subjected the ECM to the "tap test" which it passed. Someone suggested coolant temp sensor so I'll try that next. Does anyone have any other ideas? Remember, it starts fine, stalls AS it is warming up and then seems to be fine once it gets close to normal operating temperature.

The coolant temp sensor and intake air temp sensors are the only ones that would have an effect on how the car runs in the transition from cold start to warmed up. so I think you're on the right track. Normally these sensors being out of range will trip a CEL, but not always.

<sigh> for Rich and whoever else is following this drama, its not the coolant temp sensor. I put in a new one last night, started her up and just like clockwork, the same old problem after about 2 minutes of idling. Two re-starts later, it idles just fine. I don't know if this is related but i notice if i goose the throttle while its idling there is a "flat spot" in the 1st 1/2 inch of pedal.

I would do an ohm test on the injectors next. The ECM isn't completely ruled out yet, especially since you're getting no codes. If the OEM service number on your ECM (if it's original) is 1227727, there's a good chance it's bad. Be careful buying a reman ECM, Standard Ignition does a pretty good job, but A-1 Cardone units are troublesome. There's nothing worse than changing a part, eliminating it from the the list of possibilities, only to find the new part is a turd and is still causing the problem.

Well here's my update. I drove 80 miles to go see my good friend who is also much smarter than I and has all the coolest tools. We hooked up the tester and got code 42 so he agrees with Rich that its the ECM. I ordered one yesterday. Of course, this morning the car started and ran fine! No stalling at all. I guess I'll wait for the problem to return then switch the ECM. Thank you Rich for your input!

No problem Luminati, keep us posted as to the outcome.

Well here's my update and new question. As I said in my last post, the problem seemed to have cured itself for the most part. Then, after several weeks of relatively trouble-free operation, the following happened: I went out and got in, started in up, it ran for about 2 seconds and just died very suddenly. Now it cranks well but there is no spark. I went ahead and replaced the ECM but there is still no spark. I do not even know if this problem is related to the problem I was having before. Obviously I would like to avoid just replacing parts willy-nilly until I find what is wrong. Any suggestions on where to start? Thank you very much.

pull the ignition module out, its the thing that the 3 coil packs are bolted to. You can bring the whole assembly to a place like autozone for testing. If the ignition module passes have them test it again to get her nice and hot, and if it still passes its probably good, and since you replaced the ecm, the only other thing that could cause a total no spark condition is a faulty crank position sensor. your car may have 2 of these. not sure where they are located, but you may be ably to do an ac voltage check while cranking the motor, or maybe an ohm check on them, but i dont know the specs. good luck, thats all i can think of.

I agree with Tblake, he's right on the nose. Your particular model only has one crank sensor, and it's mounted in the back of the block just above teh oil pan rail. It's mounted to the block with one 8mm headed bolt, and has a two wire connector (yellow and purple I believe). They can be a bitch to remove, as they have an o-ring that hardens and gets stuck in the block, plus it's mounted in a spot where you can't get any leverage to pull.

Thanks for your advice tblake and richtazz, I'll give it a try.

T,Rich,Lu
The exchange between ya-all has been a ginormous help to me
as I am working on a 92 3.1, WITH NO SPARK, the guys at Autozone
tested the ICM, like 12 times to heat it up, and it passed.
I found that taking the time to remove the airbox as well as the fans
made the removal of the ICM a ton easier, but I have hands the size of
most peoples feet (lol) and the crank sesor is going to be a challenge because of it, BUT, I will perservere.
THANKS FOR THE BANTER.
Lt.

good luck Lt.carguy, that's what the forums are for. I hope you figure it out. Don't forget about the top part of this thread involving the ECM, as they are a high failure part due to being mounted under the hood.

Hi guys:
I spent the better part of Saturday yankin the ignition module for testing (it was ok) and replacing the CPS. I noted the old one had cracks in it so I had high hopes after installing the new CPS and cranking her up. Guess what: STILL no spark. It was a black night for me, let me tell you.
I was very interested to see Lt. Carguy's post this morning though. Looks like I still have a chance of finding the problem. I'll be checking that wire tonight!
Thank you again for your suggestions.

My wire was ok. Took it out, cleaned it, inspected it, tested it and put everything back together. No spark. Could it be the coil packs? How do you test them? This is like a quest now.

The crank sensors sometimes crack from the heat, and engine oil leaks into them and breaks down the insulation on the coil windings.

Be very careful pulling (and twisting) it out, they get very brittle. If it does break, heat the end of a screwdriver up cherry red, and melt it into the remaining portion, and continue twisting and pulling.

I was lucky. Mine came out easily. The one they sold me at AZ was longer than the old one but it went in ok. Now I'm wondering if they gave me the wrong one. I don't know. That's the nature of this problem: you just find yourself second-guessing everything.

oh, man, i dont know, usually when i replace parts like that i get genuine ac-delco parts. Autozone is goot for filters and belts and such. Never have really trusted their electronics. Try swapping in the old ecm with the new cps..... Never know. Its odd for all 3 coul packs to fail at the same time. If its a new cps and ecm, chances are your ignition module is shot, or the wiring to. Have you checked all fuses and such?

Yep. I checked all the fuses (several times) and the ignition module tested ok at auto zone. i guess I'll try what you said. Let me just throw this bit of info in: after i had the IM tested, i re-installed it. I had taken out the starter for easy access. I put the starter back in and had my friend bump the starter to make sure it was hooked up ok (there was no oil in the engine and the oil filter was off). Well he did this and the engine gave a loud pop and white smoke started drifting up from the area under the power steering pump. It never did that again after i put the filter on and the oil in. I don't know if this tells you anything.