99 Rodeo LS in shop with timing belt, question

I posted this in the "how many miles do you have" but got no responses, so I moved it to here, once I figured out how to begin a thread.
I have to make some decisions pretty soon, as I should have a diagnosis on her later today.
Thanks for any advice you can offer, see story below :)

1999 LS
(1998 engine)
2wd
approx 91000 miles

I am not sure of the mileage cuz she is in the shop as we speak
Major engine trouble:
Had to replace first engine after driving 3000 miles (it used almost all oil in the first 1500 miles, long story)
with this engine
current trouble is timing belt has slipped 4 teeth (I'm told)
mechanic is waiting for part (he is not going to replace water pump, as he thinks the tensioner was left loose when water pump was replaced).
He says there may be damage to the valves, which he will know after replacing timing belt tomorrow

does all of this sound reasonable to you?

engine is producing white smoke, husband thinks I should sell this truck and cut my loses (i have about 8grand in it with the engine replacement)...I can probably only sell it for 5k and don't really know what to buy next that would be similar and under 10k...what are your thoughts!!??
I have really enjoyed driving this truck, but it needs tires, and the brakes are about half worn...just trying to decide which way to head from here.

Thanks in advance for your opinions!!
Jan

P.S. I sell real estate, drive all over the tri-county area on lots of rural and desolate roads...it is essential that I have a dependable, working vehichle.

Just thought I would qualify things...we also live outside of town about 13 miles, so I pretty much live in my truck :) It seems like I am driving about half the time.
Thanks again
jan.

4 cly or v6?

If v6 the timing belt can break and it wont damage the engine.

4 cly the timing belt can break and it will damage the engine.

well, i just got the dreaded phone call....they say all new heads and valves are needed, it didn't hold any compression, none, zilch, zero

worst case is $1700 and best is $1400.
Icheeewawa!!
there go the bookcases I was going to buy.
I'm so bummed.

I guess the one good thing is that the white smoke issue will be cleared up and it sounds like this needed to be done anyway, the timing belt thing may have just been a secondary issue...does that make sense to all of you?

any words of wisdom?
should I sell it after this?
He says I could get a brand new engine for $3, but then there are still all of the rest of the issues that can come up...I think it needs new shocks, and I know she needs new wheels.

I want my mommy!
Jan.

4 cly or v6?

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=545836

Seeing this other post I see you have an auto so you must have a v6.

I would be a little leary about this since this is a non-interfearance engine and the valves should not bend when the belt breaks.

yea, if you have the V6, you probably do not have the damage the mechanic stated. Go somewhere else.

i hope jan reads this post before going back to the mechanic....


i have a feeling that she's being taken for a ride.

Blowing white smoke can also be a sign of worn-out spark plugs - don't ask me how I know :grinno:

If your timing was off, it'll make the engine run ragged, which can also cause white smoke, as not everything is burning efficiently, if you will.

The timing belt tensioner is a normal wear tear item on these 3.2L's, if it was not changed at the time of waterpump replacement, it's no surprize that it's failing now.

Word of wise for the future, when replacing waterpump, or timing belt, ALWAYS replace the waterpump, timing belt and tensioner at the same time, these can be labor intensive engines and it's just easier and offers peace of mind to do it all at once.

I've recently learned myself, that when a waterpump starts to fail, it can cause the tensioner to loosen and allow the belt to skip teeth. Mine did the same, but only by 1 tooth.

My engine was not damaged, and I truly don't believe your's is either. But, if the timing's off, it could lead one to believe there is serious damage, and word of wise, the timing belt tensioner, when it starts to fail, sounds like a rod knocking. Many mechanics mistake this for major engine failure.

if its a 6 the knucklehead working on it is not aware of how the cam timing works

White smoke and not holding compression sounds like head gaskets. I agree that it sounds like the mechanic doesnt know what he's doing or is a crook. Slipped t-belt will not damage valves. Maybe when it slipped it did something to cause the gaskets to go.

Just an fyi: 2eyefishclaw is an Isuzu mechanic at a dealer (I'm happy to see him back here, since it has been a couple of months).

ok, for the blonde female in the room, difference between head gaskets and heads/valves is???
money wise??
repair wise???

I am wondering if these incidents are unrelated and coincidental.
The man who owns the car lot where this mechanic works is my neighbor and friend...he took me to the hospital when I was bitten by a copperhead snake and used to be a fireman/paramedic...he's a good guy, goes to church three times a week and has let my big inside dog sleep in his bed when I was out of town.
His mechanic is pretty in tune, from what I can tell, doesn't seem to be afraid to work on anything and has recently done quite a few of these head/valve jobs...I trust him, with a grain of salt.
There was one issue a year or so ago, when I knew that my gas mileage was off on a Saturn wagon I used to own, and he kind of poo-pooed it, and I took it to the more expensive import place in town (there is only one) and they found a wire had been chewed by a rodent, so I was right and it was a 10buck fix.
So, i am not completely trusting in him, but for the most part....I don't have many options...I have a feeling the other place would cost more and I have already told him to go on and do it.
ay carumba
this is why I think I need a less fussy auto...
after this, I will have about10k in this truck, that I can only sell for 5k, if I am patient
I wish i were handy with mechanics, but I am not, I have to dress up for work and this is just a bother
good news is, I have enough money to fix this issue...it will prolong my lack of a bathtub, but I can afford it

do you really think he doesn't know what he is doing????
thanks again guys!!
janaury

oh, and eyefishclaw
thanks for posting
glad you are back
when i was reading through some of the posts earlier
i saw why you left and how much everyone was missing your input
you made a wise and noble choice to return :)
namaste
january

I'm just thinking out loud now, cuz I have no idea what I am talking about
but
is it possible
that the timing belt went out
because the heads were damaged?
and forgive me for not knowing the difference between head gaskets and heads/valves
but it is the assumption of my mechanic that when the water pump was last changed the timing belt tensioner was not properly fastened ...because he found it to be loose
I am just pulling at straws here and hoping he knows what the $^$* he is doing, since I have put my trust in him!!!!
so humbly worried
i like to be in control of things
this is something I feel I have very little control over:(
trying to remain positive
january

any news?

You need to find a new mechanic, because the one you have is totally, woefully dishonest. The 3.2 V6 is a non-interference engine design, meaning your timing belt can do whatever it wants (evaporate, snap, slip, etc) and the worst thing that can happen to the engine is that it won't turn over. The guy evaluating your truck is clearly *lying* to you, so really you need to get it out of the hands of that shady mechanic shop you took it to. If it's beyond the point of no return, sneakily get that mechanic to write "bent heads, smashed valves" on your receipt and then take his ass to court and sue to get your money back. You'll win that case easily by carrying Isuzu genuine paperwork stating that it's a non-interference design.

Have your Rodeo towed home while you think about where you want the truck to be repaired. A head gasket is just the material used to seal the bond between the engine head and the engine block. When that seal leaks, engine operation is generally affected because there are various coolant and oil passages that flow fluids between the block and head. Sometimes oil contaminates coolant passages, and other times coolant contaminates oil passages.

The reason for all out, pure, consistent white smoke is because coolant contains water. Your car burning off water is why white smoke shoots out the tailpipe. But this is only when the car is at full operating temperature. When warming up the car after sitting, don't worry about the white smoke. However, white smoke could be coming out as a result of a little $4 coolant hose leaking coolant onto a hot exhaust part.

My advice for you? Tow your car home, think about the predicament for a day or two, then have it towed to a shop that is honest. Those aren't easy to find these days...

I'm just thinking out loud now, cuz I have no idea what I am talking about
but
is it possible
that the timing belt went out
because the heads were damaged?
and forgive me for not knowing the difference between head gaskets and heads/valves
but it is the assumption of my mechanic that when the water pump was last changed the timing belt tensioner was not properly fastened ...because he found it to be loose
I am just pulling at straws here and hoping he knows what the $^$* he is doing, since I have put my trust in him!!!!
so humbly worried
i like to be in control of things
this is something I feel I have very little control over:(
trying to remain positive
january

You cant diagnose a compression loss issue until the valve timing is set properly. A broken t-belt means you have no valve timing = no compression. Set the valve timing & then retest.

Joel

joel,
he did reset the timing belt before he tested for compression and there was none
i don't know what to do at this point other than let him complete the work

i don't think he's the sharpest tool in the shed about some things, but he seems to be quite honest and knowledgable about engines

i am not trying to be arguementative at all and I am paying attention to everything you all are saying
I am just giving him the benefit of doubt, cuz, as I mentioned these folks are friends
there is one import shop in town, but I know they would be pricier...I guess I will call them tomorrow, seeing as the valves have not yet been removed...and tell them my sad story and see what they have to say about ti

I am/was, just trying to save a few hundred dollars, but I don't want it to turn around and cost me more

if I did take the truck back at this point I might very well lose a good neighborly friendship with my neighbor (the owner of the lot, where this mechanic hangs his hat)....tell me what to do :)
jan.

to be fair about what he is charging me, i live in a small town in oklahoma, and things are cheaper here than lots of places :)
and they are friends...I think I am getting the good friend/neighbor/pretty girl rate.
but I could be a fool too
thanks again!
jan.

once again
i have to ask, is it not possible that the two things
the timing belt and the bent valves are not related
cuz man
when that engine wouldn't start the other day
and I just kept trying, over and over and over
to get it to start
it sounded horrible! horrible
like thunder
not like any engine should ever sound
and in hindsight
i have learned that when there is a sound like that coming from an engine
let it alone

what do you think??
I really am listening
jan.

Make sure you eliminate the possibility of becoming heartbroken by a friends' betrayal, by mentioning that the 3.2L V6 is a "non-interference" design. Your mechanic will know what that means, and will know not to try charging you for damaged engine internals that have nothing to do a blown timing belt. A snapped belt cannot damage your engine.


joel,
he did reset the timing belt before he tested for compression and there was none
i don't know what to do at this point other than let him complete the work

i don't think he's the sharpest tool in the shed about some things, but he seems to be quite honest and knowledgable about engines

i am not trying to be arguementative at all and I am paying attention to everything you all are saying
I am just giving him the benefit of doubt, cuz, as I mentioned these folks are friends
there is one import shop in town, but I know they would be pricier...I guess I will call them tomorrow, seeing as the valves have not yet been removed...and tell them my sad story and see what they have to say about ti

I am/was, just trying to save a few hundred dollars, but I don't want it to turn around and cost me more

if I did take the truck back at this point I might very well lose a good neighborly friendship with my neighbor (the owner of the lot, where this mechanic hangs his hat)....tell me what to do :)
jan.

to be fair about what he is charging me, i live in a small town in oklahoma, and things are cheaper here than lots of places :)
and they are friends...I think I am getting the good friend/neighbor/pretty girl rate.
but I could be a fool too
thanks again!
jan.

Well, unfortunately if you had white smoke blowing heavily out the tailpipe then that's an indication that your head gasket blew. In order to get the kind of engine damage you may have received from blowing a head gasket, chances are you had to overheat the engine then the headgasket blew. Then engine internals can get so incredibly hot that they warp. Tolerances become out of specifications, and metal to metal contact destroys certain internal engine parts.

If that occurred, your engine may be shot. But if all of this suppposedly occurred from a bad timing belt...? Gotta get a new mechanic. :frown:


once again
i have to ask, is it not possible that the two things
the timing belt and the bent valves are not related
cuz man
when that engine wouldn't start the other day
and I just kept trying, over and over and over
to get it to start
it sounded horrible! horrible
like thunder
not like any engine should ever sound
and in hindsight
i have learned that when there is a sound like that coming from an engine
let it alone

what do you think??
I really am listening
jan.

well, that's what i am wondering
if they might be unrelated

i have only had this engine in this truck since sept.
i bought it from a salvage yard, in a wrecked truck, still standing
we were able to turn it on and listen, there were no knocking sounds
other than that I have no history at all on the engine
I know that I personally have never run it hot
at least according to the temp gauge

I have not seen the white smoke
my husband has
i am always inside the truck when he has seen it
and I am not sure how he knows it is always white (cuz he is always at work)
I have smelled it though, a few times
and the day the timing belt skipped 4 teeth
there was a smell of gas
and a horrible rumbling sound
i am sorry to be so poetic about this, it is the only way i know how to describe it
I sure don't want more hauntings from this truck though
and if you think I should halt things tomorrow before the truck gets any more taken apart then I will
it is a sad thing to think about doing
but I am done being stupid if that is in fact what i have been

**Disclaimer: This advice comes from a non-professional with no intent for any personal gain whatsoever. Any advice should be followed at your own risk.**

If the smoke is so faint that you can't see it, but your husband can, then there's at least hope. I probably shouldn't advocate this, but, there's a way to tell if your car is burning coolant. You'll be able to smell it in the tailpipe steam. With the car at normal temp, kind of catch a whiff of the exhaust steam. Don't put your face in the tailpipe or get on your knees or anything... just stand near the trunk. You'll be able to smell coolant in the steam. If you smell it, you'll know for sure your headgasket needs to be replaced. Even if you don't smell it though, there is still a possibility of a blown head gasket.

Here's my opinion though: I think your timing belt failed, or the timing belt tensioner failed. The noises you heard were the timing belt slapping the cover, or the tensioner kind of hanging on with the belt kind of wobbling around and slapping things. You took it to your mechanic, and if he's honest he may not know 100% that the Rodeo 3.2 V6 engine is "non-interference."

If so, he (or she?) gave you the "50-50 chance" of a destroyed engine because he doesn't know the engine. However, if the engine was wrecked then the answer would prove in metallic sparkles (metal shavings) in the engine oil and on the oil dipstick. Not to mention the horrendous engine shock you feel from the impact.

But, we know that isn't possible on your Rodeo. So if you are having timing belt problems, your mechanic needs to install a new belt and tensioner. If your mechanic is being extremely vague in explaining what is happening with your Rodeo---be extremely wary. You should write his "diagnosis" down on paper and regurgitate it here. We'll help. The very fact that the mechanic says this junk about having to dig deep and call you later sounds irresistably shady to me. A competent mechanic should be able to figure out whether it's a blown head gasket, or timing belt failure within 15 minutes. A good mechanic can generally figure it out within 5 minutes. Sorry for the essay. :frown:


well, that's what i am wondering
if they might be unrelated

i have only had this engine in this truck since sept.
i bought it from a salvage yard, in a wrecked truck, still standing
we were able to turn it on and listen, there were no knocking sounds
other than that I have no history at all on the engine
I know that I personally have never run it hot
at least according to the temp gauge

I have not seen the white smoke
my husband has
i am always inside the truck when he has seen it
and I am not sure how he knows it is always white (cuz he is always at work)
I have smelled it though, a few times
and the day the timing belt skipped 4 teeth
there was a smell of gas
and a horrible rumbling sound
i am sorry to be so poetic about this, it is the only way i know how to describe it
I sure don't want more hauntings from this truck though
and if you think I should halt things tomorrow before the truck gets any more taken apart then I will
it is a sad thing to think about doing
but I am done being stupid if that is in fact what i have been

lakeshow23
thanks for hanging in there with me on this
i appreciate you disclamier and your questions

the mehanic is not being vague with me
he has told me this (but I do not believe it it completeley true based on what I have read here and do not also believe he is "lying" but might be just coincedentally unaware of other engine issues)

i wish I had posted all of this on one post, it would be so much easier to sift through

anyway
what this mechanic (he) has told me is that the timing belt came off, most likely because the person who most recently did a water pump job did not fasten the/a timing belt bolt properly, or perhaps someone else was working on the engine and unbolted this bolt and then realized it was the wrong bolt and did not fasten it back properly
then
he put a new timing belt on and did a compression check
and there was no compression being held (I don;t know if that is the right way to word it, but there was no compression) so from that test, he surmised that the heads and valves were damaged and now need to be repaired
or valves need to be repaired, still I am not sure of the terminlology
now, the problem I have with all of this suspicion is the white damn smoke
which in my non-mechanical, but sharp mind might have been due to some trouble un-realated to the timing belt
is that a possiblity?
i stll don't understand the difference between head gaskets and heads/valves
i really wish I did
i really wish my father had been more car savvy and had taught me stuff like this, cuz I was a tomboy
but he drove cars till they quit running
and I have always been luck and chose cars that needed very little upkeep
unlike this truck

but, back to the point, i don;t feel he is being vague, he may in fact be wrong, but no vague
i just want my truck to run
again
i want my mommy
( she don't know sh*t about cars either though....just prays for them :)

does any of that info change your opinion at all?
jan.

p.s. you say you outbuy isuzu dealerships, you wanna buy mine??
just kidding, i think :)

I wish I had kept this all on one thread, it would be so much easier to keep track of
tell me again the difference between heads and head gaskets??!!
I have had 3 people try today and none of it made it through my noggin

if my head gaskets were in trouble for some reason, could this be unrelated to the timing belt problem?
i really need to know before I go accusing this man of lying to me

I REALLY appreciate your help!!!
I have learned a lot so far, I hope to keep learning.
i feel like screaming right now...I hate not being in control!!!!!! f*%^!

***I dragged this from your other thread***.

1. I just re-read this thread, to understand your questions.
2. But I don't know why you went to the shop in the first place, not too clear.
3. Your husband said, "dear, you have white smoking coming out the exhaust... bad news."
4. Then you heard bad noises under the hood, that you think indicate the engine, but I think could be anything from a bad engine to *anything*.
5. Then you ask about a head/head gasket, while immediately afterwards asking us about the timing belt.
6. So you aren't being too clear with the issue, but that's okay because you're still learning.
7. If your timing belt blew, the engine is going to run like crap, if at all. Any noises that were nasty could have been the timing belt slapping around, or the tensioner smacking around as the belt rotates. There... a nasty sound.
8. If you had the belt replaced in the past, either the tensioner decided to fail as a result of age (less likely) or as a result of the mechanic not tensioning it back to Isuzu specifications (more likely). Can't get too mad at that if you got good mileage since then though, because nobody is perfect.
9. However, due to your own lack of clarity in the two threads you created, it's difficult to give you accurate help.
10. So I'll put the onus on you. Did you overheat the engine? If no, and you couldn't see white exhaust or oil in the coolant overflow bottle, or a milky residue on your engine oil dipstick... I'm going to side with timing belt failure and not a head gasket problem.
11. Especially when you mentioned your mechanic having the water pump in his hand while not being sure if your head gasket was blown. He would have known that before pulling bolts off to remove water pumps.
12. It's either a blown head gasket or a failed timing belt. One or the other. Not both. That's like a .01% possibility. I'm going with the belt. Can't get good compression from a belt that won't turn the engine. I don't like your mechanic. Don't pick a fight with him though based on internet advice. Use "timing belt" in your dialog with him. Not "engine damage" or "head gasket."

oh man i have confused everyone!
here's how it went down

truck was runny fine (although hubby had seen this white smoke)
and then on tuesday, i went to start her and it would start but not stay started
and each time i tried the engine to start, a horrible loud sound came out

eventually the tow truck came
i rode with him to the shop
it was late in the day (like almost 5pm)
the mechanic determined that night that my timing belt was off
the next day he told me that it was off by 4 teeth
he said he had to order a new belt, it didn't come in for 2 days
once he replaced it, he did a compression test (ostensibaly to find out if there was vavle damage, according to him and the shop owner)
during the time that he took the engine apart to replace the timing belt, he noticed that the bolt was loose(noting that it was pssoble that the last person who worked on it had left this bolt loose)
he then did the compression check and it held nothing

so from that he determined that the valves were damaged
and needed to be repaired
gosh I hope that clears up any misunderstandings I might have portraired
that is about as clear as I can make it
this mechanic never worked on the water pump
he has never worked on this truck at all
i hope he knows what he is doing
i would love to hear your thoughts now and I am sorry for any confusion!!
jan.

FYI
As of today, I have been informed from two different sources (a diagnostic mechanic at a different shop, complete third part with no interest...and the salvage yard that sold me the engine, I called them to make sure of the engine size)
that my 98 V6 3.2liter engine is an Interference engine
just thought you should know

it sure made me feel better
still sad about the giant cost, but better about who is working on my truck
i really miss driving!
thanks
jan

even thought the engine is listed as an Interference engine, it has been said it is not.

I am not an expert on engines and many of the people claiming that it's a non-Interference engine are not as well, so maybe there are cases when the engine gets detroyed. I don't know, Im just throwing that out there. However, there are Isuzu techs on a few of these boards who state they are non Interference engines as well. I tend to believe them. I actually tend to believe the majority of the posters on the three Isuzu boards I visit, they have a lot of knowledge.

If you know your mechanic and he's a friend of yours, I'd doubt he's scamming you. He is the one looking at the engine. I would ask to see the bent valves and stuff though.

It's a tricky spot you're in because something doesn't seem right.

good luck,
marc

setting up cam timing on these is not somethig I would let just anyyone do
my opinion take it to someone who has already gone through this and is certain on how to set camshaft timing on you vehicle its not just a matter of lining up cam sprocket marks. the valve covers need to come off to set cam timing. once that is done the compression should be checked. if all is well after this there is no need to worry about head gasket or head removal.
good luck

FWIW - when the timing belt tensioner goes bad, or goes out, the engine sounds HORRIBLE! I mean the worst sound one can fathom - I thought my engine was gonna blow sky high when I heard it at the time of my waterpump failure.

A quick update and a question:
Truck is still in the shop, as of today, they had figured out some new way to get the vavles out (they had trouble with the bolts, holding the heads down, as I understand it) and the valves should go to the machine shop tomorrow.
Now, my question has to do with bolts, they need to replace a few that had to be bored out.
They thought they could just order them from the auto parts store, but found out they could not.
They are looking into other options, do you know of any good quick place to achieve this???
To remind you of the fix, they are repairing the valves from the damage down by timing belt demise...I am not entirely clear on where the bolts come in, either to get to the heads or the valves, or both, sorry to be so unclear, I just am not a mechanic, but any suppliers of bolts for any of these issues would be appreciated!!

Another quick question:
is there anything you can advise I should replace/attend to, while they are in there, with this engine half taken apart? It has 90k miles approx. and they are planning to replace the water pump, he repaired the tensioner....anything else I should tell them to check out???
Thanks in advance!
Jan.

Another quick question:
is there anything you can advise I should replace/attend to, while they are in there, with this engine half taken apart? It has 90k miles approx. and they are planning to replace the water pump, he repaired the tensioner....anything else I should tell them to check out???
Thanks in advance!
Jan.If it were my truck, I would REPLACE the tensioner and not put a repaired one back in, especially after having just repaired a timing belt issue.:2cents: