motorcycle frame

how hard is it to change a frame on a sport bike?????? and what does bill of sale mean?? is it legal to ride with a frame that doesnt have a vin number on it??????

Great way to go to jail, operating any motor vehicle without the numbers on it.

VIN is on the head of the frame on most bikes, in stamped form, if it's been removed, you have a stolen item. Run away screaming. A bill of sale means nothing, other than that person sold you a frame. It doesn't mean it's legal to use. If you decide to build a bike with salvage parts, ALL major components have to have the correct numbers and/or documentation, then you will have to accquire and complete an application for rebuilder's title, then you'll have to take the bike and all your documentation to someplace (the state patrol here) where they will inspect it, verify your numbers, then run background to make sure none of the components are listed as stolen. You must also have records of purchase for all items, bill of sale or reciepts with the company's name on them. HANDWRITTEN GENERIC RECIEPTS DO NOT WORK. If you can jump through all those hoops, the state then issues a new generated VIN #, which then has to be stamped into the frame, then a new title will be issued with that VIN.

I've been through it before, and it's a pain in the ass, even with all the proper documentation. With a non-numbered frame (unless it was custom constructed, that's a whole 'nother can of worms...), you're wasting your time...

Only way Id even think about it is if you crashed your bike and are just looking for a frame to replace yours...which in that case youd be better off junking it and buying new anyway. Then you could try and sneak one over on the man by pulling your VIN plate off and putting it on the other frame...though thats pretty illegal too and if caught youd be in some trouble also. Go with jeff on this and run screaming...

Only way Id even think about it is if you crashed your bike and are just looking for a frame to replace yours...which in that case youd be better off junking it and buying new anyway. Then you could try and sneak one over on the man by pulling your VIN plate off and putting it on the other frame...though thats pretty illegal too and if caught youd be in some trouble also. Go with jeff on this and run screaming...

The number is usually stamped into the frame on bikes, in addition to the label with the VIN and other manufacture info.

On tube-type frames you could get around it by cutting the head tube off a titled frame, and welding onto a frame of dubious origin. That's a PITA too, and wouldn't be worth it unless you are talking about an expensive custom frame...or a lotta chopper builders will do this just to automatically have a title to a custom built bike (as far as the DMV is concerned, it's still the bike that the VIN on the neck indicates it is). So they'd just go buy a wadded up bike with title from salvage, use the head tube from it when building their custom frame, and they were set, just register it as that bike.

Most sport bikes seem to have extruded aluminum box frames, so this wouldn't really be feasable.

Don't re-weld frames... geezus people.:shakehead

There are frames on ebay all the time that go for dirt cheap. A bill of sale is just as good as a title as long as it has the previous owners signature on it. The DMV usually turns their head away from signatures... they just don't care. I work at a salvage yard so we sell frames all the time. Even on ebay for that matter. NEVER buy a frame without a VIN. All it's good for is scrap metal. If you don't want a strait frame, go ahead and re-weld the front of the frame where the vin is attached. :grinno:

All that matters is that you have a valid title for that particular frame. None of the other components on the bike matter. If you don't have a title, and the frame is not from a stolen bike, you can apply for one at your motor vehicle bureau. Kind of a PIA.

Don't re-weld frames... geezus people.:shakehead

If you don't want a strait frame, go ahead and re-weld the front of the frame where the vin is attached. :grinno:

I was talking about an expensive, high dollar custom frame, not your 1979 Honda 750..:lol:

And with the proper jigs and laser alignment, it's gonna be at least as good as new. Wasn't suggesting you just tack it on and weld it up by eye :screwy:

I'm still trying to figure out what you meant when you said a bill of sale is as good as a title...then you said NEVER buy a frame without a title. Can I have two of whatever you're on, please? :grinyes:

On re-reading, I see what you are trying to say...I think.....but having a bill of sale means nothing if you have a bill of sale to a stolen frame, just that you are officially guilty of receiving stolen property.

DMV let that slide? Where? Alabama or something? Maybe I need to move.

I weld on frames all the time, nothing all that fancy about it, nothing all that different than any other technical welding. Don't know why everyone thinks bikes are fine china.....just metal and geometery, like most things in life.

I weld on frames all the time, nothing all that fancy about it, nothing all that different than any other technical welding. Don't know why everyone thinks bikes are fine china.....just metal and geometery, like most things in life.

True, but I've seen some really botched jobs too. Head tube a fraction of a degree off turns into a lot of misalignment at the wheel end of a four-foot girder fork...

True, but I've seen some really botched jobs too. Head tube a fraction of a degree off turns into a lot of misalignment at the wheel end of a four-foot girder fork...

seen the same on stock frames....they have some pretty crappy welding sometimes at the factory.

Welding will always be a big question mark, factory or not.

I was talking about an expensive, high dollar custom frame, not your 1979 Honda 750..:lol:

And with the proper jigs and laser alignment, it's gonna be at least as good as new. Wasn't suggesting you just tack it on and weld it up by eye :screwy:

I'm still trying to figure out what you meant when you said a bill of sale is as good as a title...then you said NEVER buy a frame without a title. Can I have two of whatever you're on, please? :grinyes:

We are not talking about American Choppers... you need to stop watching TV. Even THEY don't do frame welding. :grinno: Let me make this plain and simple so you understand: You take a "bill of sale" to the DMV. A Bill of sale has 2 signatures on it. The previous owners and the buyers. When you process this "Bill of Sale" they change the title over to you. It's the saaaame thing as having a title just another step.

Now, unless a theif is stupid enough to sell the frame (Keeping the evidence), or give it to a salvage yard that photocopies their drivers liscense, guess who takes the fall when they realize it was stolen? Not the salvage yard it was given to.

Most of the bikes, atleast in this country are not considered "High Dollar" by your definition. If you crash a brand new 2006 Yamaha R1 after pulling out of the dealer and hit an oncomming car at 60mph and twist the frame an inch... guess who will pay to have it fixed? Your insurrance company? A body shop? No, just about no one unless you want to spend more money than the frame was worth to begin with. You sell your aluminum frame as scrap metal because that's as "High Dollar" you get. :disappoin

Motorcycles are not cars. Get your facts strait. :smooch:

We are not talking about American Choppers... you need to stop watching TV. Even THEY don't do frame welding. :grinno: Let me make this plain and simple so you understand: You take a "bill of sale" to the DMV. A Bill of sale has 2 signatures on it. The previous owners and the buyers. When you process this "Bill of Sale" they change the title over to you. It's the saaaame thing as having a title just another step.

Now, unless a theif is stupid enough to sell the frame (Keeping the evidence), or give it to a salvage yard that photocopies their drivers liscense, guess who takes the fall when they realize it was stolen? Not the salvage yard it was given to.

Most of the bikes, atleast in this country are not considered "High Dollar" by your definition. If you crash a brand new 2006 Yamaha R1 after pulling out of the dealer and hit an oncomming car at 60mph and twist the frame an inch... guess who will pay to have it fixed? Your insurrance company? A body shop? No, just about no one unless you want to spend more money than the frame was worth to begin with. You sell your aluminum frame as scrap metal because that's as "High Dollar" you get. :disappoin

Motorcycles are not cars. Get your facts strait. :smooch:

One of us is missing the point...

Let's try it this way...which numbers does your DMV use as the VIN on a bike...engine or frame? Here we use frame #. So if you buy a frame, you basically bought the bike. Everything else you put on that frame is a non-issue, because the bike is titled as the vehicle the frame # indicates it is.

So you could buy a '78 Honda SuperSport frame, chop and stretch the hell outta it, put a springer on the front and an S+S 120 on it, and it'd still be titled as a '78 Honda SuperSport.

Of course they weld frames...and bend tubing...and fab tanks...and lots of other stuff :screwy: What kinda custom shops have you been hanging around?

Agreed, trying to straighten an aluminum deltabox would be idiocy, not just from a technical standpoint, but also that alloy doesn't like to bend without fracturing, so it'd probably break in two on ya at some point, true.

Anyhow, here, if you buy a frame without a title, even with a bill of sale, you just bought a really big paperweight, 'cuz you can't legally build on it.



(Unless you put a VIN#'d head tube on it):thinkerg:

I think I see what you are saying...I wish you'd just come out and said it to begin with. What you are talking about is called "Filing an application for lost title", in the event you buy a vehicle without a title using a bill of sale. That's all fine and dandy, it takes forever and if you don't know what state the title came from, you might as well sit on your hands for a couple of months while the DMV tries to locate it.

Then you find out (like I have) that the title wasn't really in this guy's name, but rather in his wife's name, who paid off the loan to keep her credit good, and refused to give him the title because she was still pissed about the divorce.

After he moves from West Virginia to Colorado, he decides he's gonna sell it to some poor schmuck with a bill of sale, assuring him (me) that he simply needs a week or two to apply for a lost title and you'll have it. Then, after trying to shoot his current girlfriend in a drunken argument, he is jailed in the state facility 85 miles from where you live. You can't call him, and they won't let you see him, because you are not family.

So you burn your last remaining favor from a representative of the sheriff's dept to contact the warden of this facility and explain your plight to him. He then cracks down on this dude, making him understand that if he doesn't produce a title for this thing very soon, he will be charged with theft by fraud, and will be there even longer than he currently is.

So this guy finally gets through to his ex, and after she finally gets around to making application, receives the title, signs it over to him, sends it to the prison, where a state employee must then act as a go-between with the DMV and this clown to get the title in HIS name, so he can sign it over to YOU, and three months later you make one more 170 mile trip to the prison to pick up your now unencumbered title:banghead:

No thanks, never again. Give me the title, or get bent.

I've worked for dealerships, owned over 100 vehicles in my time, bought vehicles wholesale, I know all the ins and outs of motor vehicle, I've been through it all at one time or another. Nothing like cash and a clear title...

PS, not sure where you live, but here, if the State Patrol shows up at your salvage yard (as they do from time to time) and finds a vehicle that you can't reach over and produce a valid title for, you're going to be late for dinner for a few days. They are gonna come down there and go through your entire inventory, and see what else you have that you shouldn't. then they'll figure out what criminal charges they are gonna file.

Most salvage yards around here won't accept anything with a VIN# that doesn't have an original title with it. No photocopies, no bill of sale, no lienholders. If you don't have that, out the door you go...

They will occaisionally take a really old vehicle with a funky title if it's going directly over to the crusher and back off their lot that day....

Oh yeah, forgot, I've worked as a civillian employee for the State Patrol here also, I kinda know the drills...