b20 vs. b16

My friend and I were talking about honda's tonight and we got on the discussion of which is the better engine in a hatch, a b20b or a b16a2. He sides on the b20 because there " is no replacement for displacement" but I kinda side on the b16 because of the hp and vtec. A b16a2 has 160 hp and 111 torque and a b20b has 140 hp and 133 torque ( i believe). Oh and we didn't even discuss crvtec or turbo's or anything he just wanted to keep on bolt ons like i/h/e. Whats your opinion?

IMHO the B16 wins against the B20 under stock conditions although the B20 has a higher torque!

Thats the old discussion- tq vs. hp, there are several articles about this problem and in every hp wins!

I thought the B16a2 is rated at 160bhp (or 170 depending on what rev) and 150 lb/ft torque...

This of course pertains to Euro versions running on 95 Octane
J.

Wow if a honda engine ever had 170 hp and a 150 torque there would be no question on which is better. Yeah though I told him that hp wins in the long run. Otherwise why would the engine be more expensive (but wait isn't a b16a2 longblock cheaper then a b20b longblock ?) plus the whole point to hondas is Vtec. If a person was into turbos then a nissian is the way to go ( which is what he is into). I guess you could just compare the arguement to the old b16 vs. b18 huh.:smoka:

Sorry, I side with the B20. But it really depends on what you want to use this engine for. For everyday driving, I'd take the B20 hands down. What's the use of 160 if it's located at 7000 rpm? The B20 will give 130lb/ft of torque at 3000 rpm, the part of the rev range you use everytime you press the gas.

Well owning the b16a, I have to say that altough full power comes in at 7,800rpm, and peak torque of 111ft/lbs at 7,000rpm there is a full 100ft/lb avliable from an amazingly low 3,000rpm, it its a totaly smoth curve all the way to peak.
Which means you get a range of over 5,000rpm of even, usefull and in a light weight Civic hard pulling Torque.(its usefull from 2,500rpm-8,200rpm) Thats accross a power range greater than some engines redlines, and certianly over a much wider range than a non-VTEC B20.

Ok, the B20 has more Torque, but in a light weight car like a Civic you really dont need it, and the B16a has more than enough at low revs to get it around in traffic. Then when you feel like going fast there is signifcantly more hp that a b20.
Quite simply the B16a is a nice easy engine to drive around town in everyday traffic, and then has more than enough hp to make things lots of fun when you want to go hard.

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer
Sorry, I side with the B20. But it really depends on what you want to use this engine for. For everyday driving, I'd take the B20 hands down. What's the use of 160 if it's located at 7000 rpm? The B20 will give 130lb/ft of torque at 3000 rpm, the part of the rev range you use everytime you press the gas.

Exactly thats the point why most of the car industrie trries to give the car much torque on low rpms- u just dont need to rev up high and the change the gear.
And ull save fuel due to the lower rpms.

Originally posted by Moppie
Ok, the B20 has more Torque, but in a light weight car like a Civic you really dont need it, and the B16a has more than enough at low revs to get it around in traffic. Then when you feel like going fast there is signifcantly more hp that a b20.

I really don't know how to put this as to not offend you but that has to be one of the stupidest statments I've heard.

Horsepower sell cars, torque wins races. I'm sorry but it really sounds like you've never driven anything other than your car. If you don't think you need torque, jump in a Corvette and tell me torque isn't a nice thing. Doesn't matter what you drive, you need torque.

Another thing you have to understand is that most of use aren't driving around a 4th gen. The 5th and 6th gens can get significantly heavier than a 4th gen especially with a system a few friends in it. And I've heard so many times from ppl who swap in B16's thinking that's thier only option, "Ehh, it's nice but I expected more". They expected torque. They expected to mash down on the pedal and to be thrown back in thier seats. A B16 in a 2600lb civic with some extras is definitly not going to do that. A lightly modded B20 can do that for you. And an H22 well...you get my point :)

But what I love about it most is the versatility. Swap in a B16 head and you'll have the best of both worlds.

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer


I really don't know how to put this as to not offend you but that has to be one of the stupidest statments I've heard.

Horsepower sell cars, torque wins races. I'm sorry but it really sounds like you've never driven anything other than your car. If you don't think you need torque, jump in a Corvette and tell me torque isn't a nice thing. Doesn't matter what you drive, you need torque.
.

ok, I happen to drive a truck for a living, so believe me, I know a thing or two about torque. :rolleyes:

And I think Iv probobly driven a lot more cars than you have.
Everything from a 180hp 1600cc Ford Escort rally car, to a 5L 928 porsche, and a 6L Turbo Diesel Mitsi Fighter. (19tons and a turbo the size of your head!!)

Anyway torque is like HP, its totaly useless on its own. You need both at the same time to make a good engine, and you need both avliable over the largest rev range possible. Its not about peak numbers, but area under the curve.
And if you reread what I wrote you'll see why the B16a is a better engine.
Quite simply although it has less total peak torque, the torque it does have is avliable over a much larger rev range than in the B20. i.e it has more area under the curve.
Which makes it a lot more useable, and the car a lot more driveable.
And if you get a B16a2 from an EG or EK japanese Civic then its even better than the torque curve in my car. The EG and EK SiR/VTi-R's are also only a fraction slower than my car, despite the extra few 100kgs thanks to the extra few hp and torque numbers, and better ECU and cams etc to make a flatter more useable torque curve.

And on top of that, the B16a will make a lot more hp with less work than a B20 will.
Its Honda's performance engine, while the B20 is the 4wd shopping cart engine.

My friend and I were talking about honda's tonight and we got on the discussion of which is the better engine in a hatch, a b20b or a b16a2. He sides on the b20 because there " is no replacement for displacement" but I kinda side on the b16 because of the hp and vtec. A b16a2 has 160 hp and 111 torque and a b20b has 140 hp and 133 torque ( i believe). Oh and we didn't even discuss crvtec or turbo's or anything he just wanted to keep on bolt ons like i/h/e. Whats your opinion?

The B20B in the 97-98 crv only makes 126 hp @ 5400 rpm & 122 ft/lbs. @ 4300 rpm

The B20Z in the 99-01 crv makes 146 hp @ 6200 rpm & 133 ft/lbs. @ 4500 rpm.

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer

Horsepower sell cars, torque wins races.


No! :D

High torque in HIGH rpms wins races.
Just a fact, nothing to discuss.

Okay I've reading about this and here is what I have learned from this site:http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=224829. The guy has a b20 dyno sheet on there and shows you what he is getting 137.4 hp and 126.8 torque which he rounds up to be about 160 hp and 150 tq ( I think 160 hp is reasonable but I think its more like 140 torque ) and he pulls a 14.4 in the 1/4 mile. From what I've read the intake manifold on the b20 is a p.o.s. If you put a skunk2 or type r im your set. The b20z is the same as the JDM b20b and the USDM b20b is left in the dust. Moppie is right about curvage too. Too many times I myself have looked at peak hp and torque but what about the rest of the time? The b20 starts early like at 2,000 and from then on you can feel a difference. The b16a2 is better then a b16a1 because of the better curve but they do feel somewhat underpowered in a 96-00 coupe. The hatch feels much better with a b16a2. Its all about power to weight. Also the transmission has a lot to do with how a b20 feels. The ls with its taller gearing feels slower then a gsr tranny. I like both engines since in a b20 equipped civic you feel fast and in a b16 civic you feel and sound fast ( it just takes a little longer to feel that way). Oh by the way the word around is that the b20's are getting scarce on the internet better act quickly.

i heard that the b16 in a hatch is around 14.9 in the quarter. how fast would the b20 be in the quarter?

What kind of hatch are you talking about? EG or EK? In my previous post there is a link that shows you another forum about this topic. The guy there said he ran a 14.4 in a straight b20z with some mods. Check it out.

what would the big b20 do to your handling? i heard that the h22 messes up your handling and jumping from 1.6 to 2.0 is a big jump

Originally posted by liquid8
what would the big b20 do to your handling? i heard that the h22 messes up your handling and jumping from 1.6 to 2.0 is a big jump


Well an H22 is a physicaly bigger than the B16/B20 which both share a common block design. Meaning they will both weigh a very similar amount.
So theres no issues with weight etc.



The guy there said he ran a 14.4 in a straight b20z with some mods. Check it out.

And whan was the last time you believed every 1/4 mile time posted in a forum?

Originally posted by Rice-Rocketeer

torque wins races


THIS IS TRUE.

believe me, theres no comparison between the b16 and b20. i have a hatch and had a b16 put it. i thought it was fast, after a while i realized it had NO TORQUE. i just finished today the crvtec conversion. WOW
night and day. what a difference. i love torque. done even mess with the b16. unless u go turbo

Well I don't believe that time unless maybe its in a crx hf. If crx's with a b16 with i/h/e can do most of the time 14.3 and up then person with a b20z with some work could be able to pull that. It seems that once you get rid of that intake manifold and replace it with a skunk2 or type R it frees up the power.

i'm not really a frankenstein engine lover. it's great and all but it sounds a little risky to me. i think the b16 is one bad ass motor. and the aftermarket support is phenomenal. i love the civic type r and it has a 1.6 so that has to mean something.

Well I think everybody is just happy there is another engine to swap into their civics. Everybody's been doing the b16a swap since the 4 th gen civic then they did the b18c and then the unheard of h22a swap. So when a new swap like a b20 comes along and then we can improve on it its really interesting. The way I see the crvtec and lsvtec are great engines but they still have to be worked out. If they were such great engines why aren't the pros using them? For people who have time and money these engines are awesome. For people like me and other daily drivers we want some torque so a b18c or b20 or b20 turbo seem like great ideas. Thats what I like :D

Originally posted by 1993HondaCivic



i just finished today the crvtec conversion.

Ok they are not talkin about the ls v-tec or crv v-tec here. I know that a crv v-tec will beat stock b16 for sure. Now from what i understand about domestics is that they needed the torque to push there heavy chassis! SO torque is needed for launching. Too much torque with honda is definatley not needed cause they have lighter chassis. If you guys want torque then go with supras , vr-4 etc... I'm really happy with my b16 and i'm proud of what it can do and what is capable of doin. Oh my friend has a 92 hatch and he got ls v-tec which blew up! He decided to go with the good 'ol b16 but don't get me wrong that ls v-tec pulled hard as hell. Too bad it had to go on him.

a B20Z w/ I/H/E....plus a better flowing intake man would prolly be faster. plus if you really want to dominate you can later add a VTEC head.

I plan on building a B20Z with the stock head....port and polish, high comp pistons......B16 intake man., cams and drivetrain. Actualy my plan is to buy a complete B16 head and transfer all the stuff to the B20....then port and polish the head and get a valve job....then later put the B16 head on there....but i'm curious to see what a B20 non VTEC could do.

my domestic instincts are telling me to go with the biggest engine possible.....my good judgement tells me not to go H22.......so i'm going B20..:bloated:

good luck

Ok, personally I am not a big fan of the h22 swap in a civic. If youre going to do it, get an accord cause the engines are similar sizes and it wont be as much of a bitch to put in. Secondly, what car is the B20 out of cause ive never heard of it, and finally the B16A is a sweet engine, but if I was going to do another swap I would either go D16Y8 or B18C, no sense in getting the ZC since these days they seem to be crappy.

Note: The B18C will probably NEVER happen, but another engine swap probably wont happen either, I drive shit till it blows up and then I will probably just get a new car, possibly a 96+ HX

Originally posted by Melt
Secondly, what car is the B20 out of cause ive never heard of it,

Where have u been????????

B20 is out of a CRV......and some stationwagon looking car in JP. go to www.crvtec.com

Hey guys all I just sourced all the parts for a b20 swap and I though maybe you all would like to see it. Now all these parts are coming from a bussiness so they may seem high to you but I guess that is what you get for security. Okay now b20b: 799, Gsr tranny:1000 (or ls tranny: 600), ls ecu: 150, integra axles:250, integra shift linkage:150, 99-00 rear si mount and integra fuel rail: 200. For a total of 2549 if you do a gsr tranny and 2149 for the ls tranny equipped. Now add in shipping which should come to 250 for the engine and tranny and we have 2799 for a b20 swap. Now I already determined I was going to get a b18c swap because its between 2900-3300 to get one and then shipping is 300 so its about 3200-3600 to get that done Plus as we all know a full b16a swap is about 2350 and then 300 for shipping bringing it to 2650. So final line is b18c: 3200-3600 / b20b: 2400-2800 / b16a: 2650. Just a little info.

P.S. It was a bitch trying to source all the parts for the b20b::D

i want to know what ever happened to the new honda motor that was supposed to put out 160 hp and 162 torque. i read about it in autoweek last november or october i think. i thought it was going to be in the new crv, but i guess not because of the numbers you guys are giving. i thought it was interesting because the torque was actually higher than the hp, autoweek also made a big deal out of it. i would have thought that motor would bet the choice of people for swapping, but i guess its either not out yet, or i made the whole thing up. maybe someone hear head about it also.

Originally posted by b16a3sol
i want to know what ever happened to the new honda motor that was supposed to put out 160 hp and 162 torque. i read about it in autoweek last november or october i think. i thought it was going to be in the new crv, but i guess not because of the numbers you guys are giving. i thought it was interesting because the torque was actually higher than the hp, autoweek also made a big deal out of it. i would have thought that motor would bet the choice of people for swapping, but i guess its either not out yet, or i made the whole thing up. maybe someone hear head about it also.

the B20B engine they were talking about is in the 96-98 CRV, where as the B20Z was in the 99-01. the new CRV i believe has the K20A engine straight from the new SI/RSX base.

That is the new crv engine its part of the k series and so like every other series their not worth putting into 92-00 civics because they are very different=very expensive

h yea..and i'll take the B20Z please..:D

Okay so I guess I was right on the money with the prices for a b20 swap, huh. Thats kinda depressing:(

the B20B engine they were talking about is in the 96-98 CRV, where as the B20Z was in the 99-01. the new CRV i believe has the K20A engine straight from the new SI/RSX base.

The new CRV has a K24A 160hp @ 6000 & 162 ft/lbs. @ 3600.

Originally posted by pric


The new CRV has a K24A 160hp @ 6000 & 162 ft/lbs. @ 3600.

ah yes..thank you my son:D

hey im planning to get a b20z but i dont know what tranny to get. can you guys tell me if i should get a b18b tranny or a b18c tranny. please gimme reasons on why i should get one over the other.

Originally posted by koo
hey im planning to get a b20z but i dont know what tranny to get. can you guys tell me if i should get a b18b tranny or a b18c tranny. please gimme reasons on why i should get one over the other.

Well if your not going turbo then get any b16 or gsr tranny. If goin turbo the ls tranny is popular for that.

From what I've read going with the gsr tranny is the best if you are staying b20 na with no vtec head. If going vtec the gsr tranny is still good but supposedly the b16 tranny is better because of shorter gears. But the gsr tranny is still good even for that . So in short ls for turbo (long gears) gsr for na (shorter gears) and b16 for b20/vtec (shortest gears.

Originally posted by h82lose
From what I've read going with the gsr tranny is the best if you are staying b20 na with no vtec head. If going vtec the gsr tranny is still good but supposedly the b16 tranny is better because of shorter gears. But the gsr tranny is still good even for that . So in short ls for turbo (long gears) gsr for na (shorter gears) and b16 for b20/vtec (shortest gears.

well thanks for repeating what i just said.;) :p

Great minds think alike:D

A B20 Block weighs the same as any other b series.

engine with tranny:

B series: 305 lbs

H22: 385 lbs

mmmmm, plow

I must say that i am an avid fan of the B20. I have a b20 block with a 6a16 head (toda cams, 12.6.1 compression, 64mm throttle body....etc) and I got 160hp at the wheels. I'm aiming for 13 second passes and am considering putting quad-trhottle bodies on it. Umm...direct port injection and type R gearbox...yummy!

I must say that i am an avid fan of the B20. I have a b20 block with a 6a16 head (toda cams, 12.6.1 compression, 64mm throttle body....etc) and I got 160hp at the wheels. I'm aiming for 13 second passes and am considering putting quad-trhottle bodies on it. Umm...direct port injection and type R gearbox...yummy!

Hmm....I've never tried those 6a16 heads before hahaha j/k:silly2:

You got cams, 64mm TB, and the compression ratio is 12.6 whoa!! and your only getting 160hp @ the wheels at what rpm are you making this power and what was the torque?

with that compression and block size, you should definately hit the 250whp already. something is wrong with your tuning.....

Yeah...the reason why the power is a bit lower than it should, is probably due the fact that i'm only using a piggy back system (APEXI VAFC and APEXI SUPER ITC). The rev-limiter is still set at 8,200rpm. When I get a full ems I should be able to rev it to about 9,500-10,000....power should be alot higher then

By the way guys, i'm from Australia and would like to know what the fastest NA civics are doing in America. I'm actually the first person in Australia (believe it or not) to use this set-up in a Honda.....thanks boyz...

I believe the record for a N/A is a Honda CRX running 10.73 @ 129.8 mph.

There's an all motor honda civic coupe running 10.6 @127mph.

mine will be the fastest all motor civc, and even 50 state legal too!:eek:

hehe....everyone can DREAM.

Originally posted by b20boy
When I get a full ems I should be able to rev it to about 9,500-10,000....power should be alot higher then




A stock B16a will pull to about 9,000 on stock internalls, abd 9,500 maybe 10 for very short periods.
A B20 will not even get close. At 8,200 your already pushing it to far, it will break something before it sees 9.

check out what i got!.. not braggin, just very excited and i had to show someone

http://krillz.20m.com/images/dcp08953.jpg

Nice. What is your setup going to be? Such as what intake manifold are you going to use and which transmission?

im debating ls intake manifold or spending the cash on a skunk2,

buti think if i got the skunk2 im, i should also get the throttle body and a better fuel rail so it just turns into money...

but im probably gonna go gsr transmission, unless somone convinces me that the LS will be fine at 70mph



how high will the gsr tranny take me? i dont wanna over rev this thing.... i would like to have some sort of fuel cutoff

Well from what I've read if you are going to go straight b20 go with the gsr tranny and if your series about speed do the skunk2 im. Have you had thoughts yet about turbo or a vtec head?

i might turbo later, or vtec it.....

i dont know... depends on how it runs.... how much cash i got etc etrc etc

Yo Guys,

Can anyone here help me with the following two issues concerning the Ba16 on b20 conversion (crvtec)....

1. What do they do in the US for crank breathers? Do you guys have issues with pressurising the sump at high compression ratios i.e 12.6.1?
Have you guys had any problems with rear main seals coming out?

2. I just snapped two engine mounts in my cars. What do you guys use to avoid this problem in the civic?

If any of you giys could help me a.s.a.p. it would be most appreciated...

Thnks guys.......

You know what I realized today? The b20 isn't all that its cracked up to be. At first everyone kept saying torque this and torque that but thats not what honda's are for. Their claim to fame is vtec. Plus one of the flagships of the honda camp is the b16a. With a near perfect rod to stroke ratio and 8200 rev limit the motor is built to race. When I compared specs from the b16a to the b20 is was unfair a lot of times. One was that the b20's spec of 146 hp and 133 torque at the flywheel was with a terrible tranny, a restrictive intake, and a heavy vehicle ( all due to the crv). Well the optimal set up being replacing the tranny with a gsr tranny, the im with a ls or a skunk2, and the new vehicle being a much lighter civic generating about 150 hp and a 130 torque at the wheels! Sounds too good to be true. Well that made me believe that the b20 was a great engine. Until today, you see I read a lot about the b16a. The b16a high hp of 160 hp and low low torque of 111 seem really weak and this is rated at the flywheel. Well I forgot to add in the tranny. The b16's tranny is geared so high that it takes full advantage of the high redline and puts it to good use. Honda's are light ( well some are) and a lot torque creates traction problems like bouncing and loss of grip. With low torque the car is able to hook up and therefore get a better start. Also doing a b20 non vtec the right way with what I've mentioned comes to almost 3000. Thats the same as a b18c swap and then comes the question what could I do with 700 with a b16a? Cams, intake, exhaust who knows. Comparing a b20 with a b16 is comparing a truck engine with a race engine. No one comes to honda with huge visions of torque running through their mind. Some people like me come to it with expectations for a car that gets great gas mileage at low rpms and drives like a race car at high rpms providing a balance is you will. Did I mention I love Vtec.:D

the B16 is WAY OVER RATED!! i've dusted so many of those in the days when i only had my B18B1, intake, exhaust, and PYR chip. also on the highways, i can kill one easily due to their short ass gearings. oh yeah, the PYR chip let's me revv just as easily up to 8500 as a B16 could making it fair.

and another thing...a few of my buddies' have B20s in the HBs and think about this...how many B16s have you seen with little almost no mods and chirp their tires @ 70mph in 4th gear! yup, they all do! and here's one of my boy's setup...he has the weakest setup of them all and he's still able to do this:

B20, B18c1 tranny, K&N drop in filter, and Mugen chip(8500 redline).

Okay making the b20 go far beyond its redline which is what 6800 to 8500 sounds great but wait what is the b20's rod to stroke ratio. Probably like the b18b's somewhere around 1.54 or something like that. the b16's is a near perfect 1.74 ( 1.75 is perfect) so it can take all of those high revs. Revving the b20 without reinforcing it sounds like a recipe for a rebuild. My point is the b20 is a great engine but it shouldn't be treated like a vtec engine with all this high revving. The b16 likes getting the piss revved out of it cause that is where the power is. Also what is your friend running ( 0-60, 1/4 mile) with his setup?

what h82lose just said..

even with the engine reinforced, those engines will not hold up to 8100RPM for long. you're looking at frequent rod changes. its just not worth it unless its an all out dragster and you have lots of money.

a B16 is not overrated. maybe has almost no torque, but its tranny is designed to work with it and it does well also. so now you say.."it doesn't have the potential of a 2.0" well..you can bore the engine out to 1.8-2.0 liters with bigger bore pistons. this will not change the rod to stroke ratio, meaning you can rev high AND have the potential of a 2.0. the only differences that lies between the 2.0 B16 and the B20 is the stroke. the B20 has a longer stroke, hencing why it has more low end than a B16. but when you have a longer stroke, the capability to rev high is being lowered. honda engines make their power through revving, so it would be better to make those engine rev higher. and when you want to rev higher, the LS and CRV engines aren't going to cut it. :)

Hey this thread went really well lets keep it going now which engine would you want to turbocharge!

well, i got a b20, noone has one around me, and everyone is used to destroying me str8 off bc im in an auto DX.... so once i get the b20 in, and the right suspension mods, i hopefully will be able to jump on any b16 off the line, at least thats what the numbers say....

and supposedly, if im a good driver i can beat gsrs as well, and probably keep up with itrs when i learn how to drive it well

yeah, no vtec, so what...

im a stop-light racer, rarely going above 60, and the b20 numbers say that my o-60 time should be pretty good.... and according to whats been posted above, i will be able to chirp in 4th at seventy..... that says something....

ill take a b20 over a b16 any day just becuase its different, not to mention the torque in the first place.... the Hp is the same, and the torque is greater by a long shot, ill trade that for vtec any day

im thinking about adding a stealth zex 55 shot, then i would be done.... and move on to the exterior and interior of my car and leave the engine bay alone......

think about it, jumping off the line, and getting a really good head start, and then if and when they start to catch up, give a little shot of no2 and im OUT....

thats all i plan on doin

Hey krillz you already have your b20 right? I read all your posts at JDMCivic.com and I was wondering how its all coming about. I'm really getting into turbo's so I'm trying to figure what would be a better engine the b16a or the b20. The thing is that the b20 has lower compression ratio which is great because it gives you more room to work with it. Though I only want to run at the most 12 psi. So by turboing the b16a you take away its worst attribute : no torque. See what I'm saying