ANOTHER bearing question

Sorry to post another bearing question but I am not positive what I have going on. I have an 02 GP GT 3.8w/50K, the car is fine until you hit 65ish and the front end vibrates.
I though maybe it was a tie rod, so this morning I jacked up the car to check it out and the tie rod seemed fine (6:00 & 9:00 shake) but there was a little play when you wiggle the tire at the (12:00 & 6:00 shake) like the lugs were a little loose. I couldn't see behind to see were it was loose but I would think it could only be the wheel bearing....but there are no grinding or humming noises and there are no idiot lights on.

Am I missing something?

Thanks Jeff

12-6 play could be a ball joint or upper strut mount/bearing going bad. To rule out the hub, loosen the CV axle nut and try again. If the play worsens, the hub is bad. MAke sure you re-tighten the hub nut to correct spec with a torque wrench. IF you don't have a torque wrench, don't attempt to do this your self.

Thanks Rich, I am going to get someone to move the tire so I can get behind and see where it is loose, it may be the ball joint because the sound is low not high like the strut bearing.

I should have added that a hub will be loose at any position (10-4, 3-9, 8-2, etc...), not just one. That's why I suspect a bad ball joint since you say the noise is low, not high.

I've owned a lot of GM cars since 1974 and I never had one with bad tie rod ends or ball joints at just 50K miles on the odometer. But alignment guys have tried to convince me of that (ball joint and tie rods) and when replaced the same problem existed.

Have you done the normal checks like tires (inspect for bad spots/bad belt) both front and rear. Wheel balance? Alignment? How is the wear?

Due to the Grand Prix's unibody construction even a flaky or out of balanced tire on the rear will be felt at the front end and steering.

Although I would not rule a hub/bearing out, I agree with Rich a bad hub bearing may be detectable at all o'clock positions. If your wheels were not torqued down properly at 100 ft-lbs then you may have rotor damage which will also cause a vibration or shimmy.

You know until I started reading these forums I had no idea the importance of torque on the lugs.
The tires are in good shape air pressure is good and they were recently balanced. The only way I get any wiggle out of it is 12-6 not on 3-9 when I had I had the wheel off the rotors didn't look that great so I was going to replace them, I think I will get the rotors tomorrow and start there since that is a little cheaper than a hub/bearing.... and the noise I am getting sounds like it could be the rotor.

Thanks guys I will post my finding when I am done.

P.S. I should buy a torque wrench as well. Can you recomend a decent one....you can go from 50-1000's on them.

You know until I started reading these forums I had no idea the importance of torque on the lugs.
The tires are in good shape air pressure is good and they were recently balanced. The only way I get any wiggle out of it is 12-6 not on 3-9 when I had I had the wheel off the rotors didn't look that great so I was going to replace them, I think I will get the rotors tomorrow and start there since that is a little cheaper than a hub/bearing.... and the noise I am getting sounds like it could be the rotor.

Thanks guys I will post my finding when I am done.

P.S. I should buy a torque wrench as well. Can you recomend a decent one....you can go from 50-1000's on them.

You can rent them but a torque wrench is a good tool investment. I use Sears Craftsman. Can't beat the warranty. The Pros-Mechanics use Snap on.

BTW - Get some decent quality rotors. I use the Raybestos PG (Professional Grade) and PG ceramic pads.

Bob, you're lucky living in Texas, you don't get the frost heaval potholes that could swallow a Buffalo like we do here in Michigan. It's rare, but if someone drives like my mom does (throttle and brake are on/off only, she thinks GT means Gas To-the-floor, :icon16: , it's possible to wear out a ball joint that early up here. Good idea changing the rotors since they look suspect JRT. You might as well change things that you can tell are bad, they might fix what you "think" is bad. The free-play you are feeling is what makes me think it's a ball joint, but Bob's right, rotors and tires can and will cause a front end shimmy. You didn't hit a curb or slide into anything prior to the problem did you?

Bob, you're lucky living in Texas, you don't get the frost heaval potholes that could swallow a Buffalo like we do here in Michigan.

Not really Rich. Have you ever seen or driven on the roads in West Texas? We get flash flooding from rains especially during the monsoon season. Big time potholes and road deteriation and rocks from the mountains. We do not have a drainage system per se. Our roads are used to funnel runoff water to collection ponds. Plus I periodically have to go to Juarez, Mexico to our other plant. Now that is an experience. The roads there are BAD! The bottom line is roads here are worse. I do not have the original struts in any of my W" body cars. All replaced. However, original ball joints, tie rod ends, and hub-bearings.

No just the sink holes in the road but this has been there since I bought the car, the rotors were bad when I bought the car and I told them I wanted them fix before I buy the car....now what I think they did was take them off another GP I was looking at because the rotors couldn't have grooved like they are since October.

Rich is right, I go down the road and cringe every time with all the pot holes, on the Grand AM I had before the GP I bent an alloy rim...the rim was actually cracked!

PS-I just bought a SK torque wrench!!!!!

Good choice on the torque wrench, S-K makes nice tools.

Rich is right, I go down the road and cringe every time with all the pot holes, on the Grand AM I had before the GP I bent an alloy rim...the rim was actually cracked!

Got an '02 Olds Alero GL2 and the handling is much better than my Grand Prix. (.83g). Very nimble and one of the best pot hole evaders around. BTW - I do my best to avoid potholes.

A friend of mine did the same thing with his Grand AM. He hit a pothole and not only took out his right front rim, but bent his control arm too. The pothole was in a blind corner, and was 14" deep, 28" across, and 35" long. The road commission claimed they had a barrier on it and someone moved it so they weren't responsible.

The thing is sometimes in Chicago it's easier to avoid smooth road than it is to avoid holes....question how are the Bosch rotors? They didn't have Raybestos. (That was Murray's).

The thing is sometimes in Chicago it's easier to avoid smooth road than it is to avoid holes....question how are the Bosch rotors? They didn't have Raybestos. (That was Murray's).

The general concensus is not to buy anything Bosch. I don't know of anyone using Bosch rotors or brake components and have no data on them.

Bendix makes good rotors but they are expensive.

If your roads are that bad and worse than mine then other suspension and steering components are a possibility. Hub/bearing, struts, ball joint, and lower control arm bushings, etc. A good alignment shop should be able to detect most prematurely worn components without having to guess or speculate.

The roads aren't that bad but some stretches are just reallly rough.

Those Bosch rotors were 59.00 ea, I have to check Advance or Auto Zone.

Thanks to both of you for your help.

Jeff

The roads aren't that bad but some stretches are just reallly rough.

Those Bosch rotors were 59.00 ea, I have to check Advance or Auto Zone.

Thanks to both of you for your help.

Jeff

you can get Napa ones for 32 bucks each w/ AAA discount...that's where i got mine when i went 12" last month...

The roads aren't that bad but some stretches are just reallly rough.

Those Bosch rotors were 59.00 ea, I have to check Advance or Auto Zone.

Thanks to both of you for your help.

Jeff

I had a set from AutoZone put on mine last year and they were actually American made and cost about $37 each.

Thanks for all the info, I am seeing a friend over the weekend who is a manager of a parts store and he is getting me some AC Delco rotors, he lives on the south side of Chicago and I am on the North side so usually I wouldn't ask him since I am seeing him I thought I take advantage.

I put on the new rotors this morning, snugged the lugs and still have the teeter in the 12-6 o'clock position. Being I was by myself it is really hard to see where it is loose but it all points to the bearing. So what I did is put a screw driver in the between the bearing and housing and tried to shake it and it disappeared so I want to say it's the bearing. The thing that scares me is what Rich said it should be loose in the 3-9 position as well the thing is there is a lot more play that way just because of the steering play and I may be missing it.:banghead:

You can try rotating the tires from front to back and if it still exists, you might as well do the wheel hubs. When you put on the new rotors, you could have changed the hubs in about 30 minutes. Make sure you have extra 13mm sockets. I broke two 15mm and one 13mm plus a universal getting mine off.
I can tell a noticeable difference in the way the car drives and handles now but then mine had over 300K miles on them.

Are you checking the wheel bearing with the tire on or off?

Here is the proper procedure per the GM Grand Prix service manual:

Raise and support vehicle at the subframe.
Remove wheel.
Remove disc brake caliper and not rotor.
Install at least two or more of the wheel lug nuts to hold the rotor in place.
(Use a dial indicator connected to strut assembly if possible. Position dial indicator stem against hub center shoulder).
Pull/push rotor in and out by hand to measure end play.
If end play is less than .005" (.13mm) bearing is OK.
If end play exceeds .005" (.13mm) wheel bearing is worn. Replace hub and bearing assembly.

As you can see the GM clearances are pretty tight and it does not differentiate between 12 and 6 or the 3 and 9 o'clock positions.

Thanks guys, yes Bob I did it both ways with the tire off and with the rotor snugged on with a couple of lugs, I don't have a dial indicater but I feel confident that when I stuck the screw driver between the shaft and bearing from behind it didn't allow it to move.


Thought I sent this earlier, but it didn't go.....:banghead:

Thanks guys, yes Bob I did it both ways with the tire off and with the rotor snugged on with a couple of lugs, I don't have a dial indicater but I feel confident that when I stuck the screw driver between the shaft and bearing from behind it didn't allow it to move.


Thought I sent this earlier, but it didn't go.....:banghead:

Those bearings tolerances are quite tight. 5 thousands is nothing so if there is slop per the GM procedure it looks like you've narrowed it down to the bearings.

wlkjr,

What did you bust the sockets/wrench on the caliper bracket or the bolts for the hub/bearing? I know the calipier brackets are a bear to get off, even on the Grand AM they were tough (do they have lock tight on them?).

A guy at work has a Grand AM and he went to put on rotors and pads and couldn't get the bolts off and ened up taking it in to a shop.

wlkjr,

What did you bust the sockets/wrench on the caliper bracket or the bolts for the hub/bearing? I know the calipier brackets are a bear to get off, even on the Grand AM they were tough (do they have lock tight on them?).

A guy at work has a Grand AM and he went to put on rotors and pads and couldn't get the bolts off and ened up taking it in to a shop.
Sorry for the wait on the reply, I've been at the Atlanta race track all weekend.
Broke two 15mm sockets on the caliper bolts and one 13mm on the hub bearing bolts. One of the 15mm sockes was a 3/8" drive Craftsman and the other was a 1/2"drive SK. I wonder if impact sockets are any stronger than regualr sockets? Apparently the tire store that did my last brake job overtightend the bolts. That's why I prefer doing my own work, you can never tell who might do the job somewhere else and you can bet your sweet rear they don't care as much about your car as you do.

Thanks wiljr, I was able to get away with no tool casualties.

I installed the new rotors and hub/bearing this weekend. The hub/bearing did resolve the play in the wheel but the car still shakes at 60-65..I will try a wheel alignment next and hopefully this will resolve the issue. I am guessing the shimmy is what cause the bearing to wear and cause the play.

Thanks for all the feedback.

Thanks wiljr, I was able to get away with no tool casualties.

I installed the new rotors and hub/bearing this weekend. The hub/bearing did resolve the play in the wheel but the car still shakes at 60-65..I will try a wheel alignment next and hopefully this will resolve the issue. I am guessing the shimmy is what cause the bearing to wear and cause the play.

Thanks for all the feedback.
Have you tried rotating the tires to see if you have a bad one?

No I have not, but I had rims taken off and put back on at a later time and assumed the same rim wasn't put back on the same spot.
I will try it just to be sure.

I rotated the tires, I will test drive it on my way to work.

I rotated the tires, I will test drive it on my way to work.

Just wanted to update my situation and after the rotation it didn't help the problem. The following week I had an alignment that didn't help. Then I finally received my GM handling package after 4 WEEKS from GM parts direct and put on the STB...a few days later I took it on the expressway and it seemed to help a lot more than anything else I did. I am putting on the front and rear sway bar in the morning, I hope it will finalize the issue I am having.

Well I should have driven a little longer that day because the STB didn't help. I have no idea what to do, would a bad strut bearing would cause this problem? I would think you would be able to feel some play in the front end if that was the problem.
Can anyone add anything to that?:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Well I should have driven a little longer that day because the STB didn't help. I have no idea what to do, would a bad strut bearing would cause this problem? I would think you would be able to feel some play in the front end if that was the problem.
Can anyone add anything to that?:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I don't believe you have a strut bearing problem. And even if you did you will not be able to tell unless it is making noises. To inspect a strut load bearing the strut must be removed for inspection.

Thanks Bob, is the bearing a two piece configuration, one stationary and the turns with the steering?
If you heard a grind or a rubbing when turning the wheel standing still could that be the bearing mount?

Thanks Bob, is the bearing a two piece configuration, one stationary and the turns with the steering?
If you heard a grind or a rubbing when turning the wheel standing still could that be the bearing mount?

Its possible. The noises typically made either when car is stationary turning the wheel or during movement such as in turns or curves are clunking, rubbing sound or an annoying creaking sound. The pic below has a strut assembly broken down. The upper strut mount and load bearing is circled in red.


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/strut02.jpg

BTW - Normally if the strut mounting components are bad or worn out it would probably show up in an alignment check, camber being off.

I'm being lazy and don't feel like reviewing the other posts, have you checked the lower control arm bushings?

Bob when I had it aligned they said that the next time I would need the oblong bolts but other than that they didn't say anything else.

Rich would there be play in the bushings if they were bad? I don't know any other way of checking them.

Bob when I had it aligned they said that the next time I would need the oblong bolts but other than that they didn't say anything else.

Rich would there be play in the bushings if they were bad? I don't know any other way of checking them.

The alignment should show LCA bushings that are in bad shape. You have too low mileage. What they meant was your camber is getting near out of spec and you will need the strut mod where you grind out one of the lower strut mount holes (make oblong). Then you get an aftermarket eccentric bolt kit. Cost is around $25. The camber will then become adjustable to some degree.

If you have the alignment printout, please post and we can see what the deviation is and compare against the GM specs.

Does it appear that the car may have been in an accident? If the car is low mileage and the strut mounts need to be elongated to get the camber in spec, it sounds like it may have been. I would check the front subframe mounts for play also.

Does it appear that the car may have been in an accident? If the car is low mileage and the strut mounts need to be elongated to get the camber in spec, it sounds like it may have been. I would check the front subframe mounts for play also.

I agree Rich. Something is not right. The only other time I've seen camber that far off is with lowering springs like from Eibach. Also, if there was accident damage sometimes they do not properly fasten or secure the complete rack and pinion where it mounts to the subframe so I check that out too.

Here are the numbers I have from the alignment-

Left Front Right Front Spec?

-0.91 Camber -1.22 -1.40 -0.40

3.11 Caster 3.32 2.50 3.50


Left Rear Right Rear Spec?

-1.31 Camber -1.54 -1.40 -0.40


With the sub frame mounts are you guys suggesting to tighten them? If it was in an accident and it is bad (unfixable) would the alignment show it's bad?

Here are the numbers I have from the alignment-

Left Front Right Front Spec?

-0.91 Camber -1.22 -1.40 -0.40

3.11 Caster 3.32 2.50 3.50


Left Rear Right Rear Spec?

-1.31 Camber -1.54 -1.40 -0.40


With the sub frame mounts are you guys suggesting to tighten them? If it was in an accident and it is bad (unfixable) would the alignment show it's bad?


Here are the factory specs in degrees for a '97 and to at least 2000 Grand Prix with 16 inch wheels:

CAMBER
Front 0.35 to 1.15 Preferred 0.85
Rear -1.5 to -0.5 Preferred -1.0

CASTER
Front 2.7 to 3.7 Preferred 3.2

TOE-IN
Front -0.2 to 0.2 Preferred 0
Rear 0 to 0.2 Preferred 0.1

I'm not sure if the specs changed for your model year. Camber on just about any GM "W" body car is supposed to be positive whereas yours is negative. I'd have to double check the GM service manual for the 2002 model year.

However your right front deviates a bit from the left. Preferred settings are normally in the middle of the specs provided. Plus your right rear camber is out of the specs provided on your alignment data.

Sorry to butt in, but I have a quick question.

Is it uncommon for camber to go out of alignment right after an alignment has been performed?

I didn't notice right after the alignment was done, but when the steering wheel is dead straight on mine, it will want to pull to the right. Keeping wheel 2-3 degrees left of center usually corrects the problem.

I'm in pothole country, so I wonder if hittng one messed up the camber alignment. I'm probably going to take it back to have them recheck, but I wanted your opinion first.

I didn't notice the RR camber being out, on the printout the selection is 2002-2003 Grand Prix so they may have changed from 1997-2000 GP.

I didn't notice the RR camber being out, on the printout the selection is 2002-2003 Grand Prix so they may have changed from 1997-2000 GP.

Probably so even though I don't see what major suspension or steering component changed between those year models.

Well after banging my head against the wall numerous times I figure since we have a another Grand Prix why don't I take the rims off and put them on my car. So I swapped the front rims and took it for a ride, it still seemed to be there but the wheel wasn't shaking, I thought maybe the tires are bad (they a cheap axx tire the dealership put on)...they are in good shape but am sure are the cheapest thing you can buy. The name on the tire is Clear if you can believe that! Anyway I thought since I still feel it maybe the two rear are causing it so I went back and swapped out the rear two and took it for a ride and the shake is totally gone. Now my wife has a problem...LOL.
I am pretty sure it's the tires and not the rims, I can't imagine all four being bad, so when I go for the tires I will have them double check the rims.

Well after banging my head against the wall numerous times I figure since we have a another Grand Prix why don't I take the rims off and put them on my car. So I swapped the front rims and took it for a ride, it still seemed to be there but the wheel wasn't shaking, I thought maybe the tires are bad (they a cheap axx tire the dealership put on)...they are in good shape but am sure are the cheapest thing you can buy. The name on the tire is Clear if you can believe that! Anyway I thought since I still feel it maybe the two rear are causing it so I went back and swapped out the rear two and took it for a ride and the shake is totally gone. Now my wife has a problem...LOL.
I am pretty sure it's the tires and not the rims, I can't imagine all four being bad, so when I go for the tires I will have them double check the rims.

Clear??? Never heard of the brand before. I would agree the tires would be suspect. I believe a lot of us mentioned that when your saga lasting about 30 days first started. I'd go for a complete set of tires. BTW - Get some decent ones with a good UTQA rating....all "A" in treadwear, traction and temperature. Plenty of them out there. And a good computer wheel balance. The whole problem I had with your situation is your low mileage, therefore ruling out mechanical problems. Expensive learning experience but it sounds like you are on the right track. Good luck!

i'd go after the stealership since they seem to have scr*wed you by taking the cheapo route....

I like to go after the dealer but the tires were on the car when I bought it and when you sign that "as is" clause you really don't have a leg to stand on. Even though it was from a dealer I got it for a good price...I am just glad the frame wasn't out of wack or something.
I did rotate the tires at one point to see if the tires or rims were the problem but who would have thought all the tires have a problem...there is no sign of cross thread and they look great as well.
That little play I had in the hub/bearing, before I took the tires off my wives GP her car (on one side) had the same play like I had, but you guys knew that wasn't the problem because of the low miles and there was no idiot light on.
Thanks to everyone for their input, I really appreciate it!

Just wanted to let everyone know what the outcome was with my car.
I thought it was the tires but after purchasing new tires it wasn't. I put my wives tires/rims again and it cured the vibration. I now thought since the tires are new must be the rims, well I went back a few times and they took them off and them rebalanced the rims but still it was vibrating. After that I assumed my rims were shot even htough they never said they were bent, I was now looking for new rims.
Long story short I purchased new rims from Pep Boys, went on the highway still vibrating.....I went back to Discount Tire instread of Pep Boys and talked with a NEW and he said we have a special machine to balance the tires, it tells the tech were to mount the tire on the rim for the best balance.....WTF! You think they would have mentioned they had this service on one of my THREE trips back when I was still having problems!
I had to go to work and this other procedure would have taken more time so I said just check the balance and if it doesn’t do the trick we can do this other balancing method at another time. This other guy knew what he was doing, he rotated one of the tires 180 degrees on the rim plus the guy at Pep Boys only put a weight on the inside of the rim and there should have been two the other should have been on the inner side of the rim (I have to check the stock rims and see if Discount did the same thing) these are the weights that are flat and mount/stick on the inside of the rim not sure the proper name.
The point is that the front ends these cars are VERY sensitive and that not all people you talk to at these places are equal they know how to do something but do they know how to do it correctly?
I was very lucky that I had another GP to take the rims off of and check, when you take your tires to a tire shop you think they did everything correctly and that is one thing that can be scratched off the list of possibilities.