HP to WHP

I was wondering if anyone can fill me in on how much HP is lost when converting to WHP for a gsx. I am guessing that an awd car would lose more than a fwd car? I have heard people try to argue both ways so I thought I would ask people who actually know what they are talking about. Thank you.

I was told that you lose about 10% of your hp from the crank to the wheels in an AWD car. I have no idea how accurate that really is though...

^Really? That sounds kind of low to me. A RWD typically loses 20-25%.

Between 20-30% is normaly for a modern AWD set up, older systems lose more.
A good FWD set up will lose around 12-20%, and a RWD set up around 15-30%.

If the eclipse drive train is closely related to the Evolutions and Gallant VR4s then something like 22% would be a good number to use to get a good idea.

Between 20-30% is normaly for a modern AWD set up, older systems lose more.
A good FWD set up will lose around 12-20%, and a RWD set up around 15-30%.

If the eclipse drive train is closely related to the Evolutions and Gallant VR4s then something like 22% would be a good number to use to get a good idea.
That sounds better. Good Mornin Moppie!!!:D

Wow... That sucks, I didn't realize it was that much... Can anything be changed in the drivetrain to reduce that number?

Carbon or lightweight driveshaft maybe?

it is around the 15-20% for awd, but just doing hp wise, im guessin 20-30 hp wheel lose average.

Thank for the input everyone.

Wow... That sucks, I didn't realize it was that much... Can anything be changed in the drivetrain to reduce that number?

Fully Synthetic Oils and less rotating mass(light wheels and lighter driveshaft).

Fully Synthetic Oils and less rotating mass(light wheels and lighter driveshaft).:iagree: That's about all you can do.

Lighten up the flywheel would help a bit but youre going to see the most inprovement by switching fluids, They've done a number of tests and in an ls1 camaro they picked up 10 extra hp at the wheels by switching to royal purple all around

Lighten up the flywheel would help a bit but youre going to see the most inprovement by switching fluids, They've done a number of tests and in an ls1 camaro they picked up 10 extra hp at the wheels by switching to royal purple all around

I am a believer in Amsoil(amsoil has a percentage gain thats something like 5-15% dont remeber for sure), but I am currently running BG Syncoshift II in my tranny and TC. I need to change the rear end fluid soon, but it takes money and my tools. I currently have neither.:(

http://www.royalpurple.com/techrp/summary.html
I've heard nothing but praise for the stuff so I am going to give it a try

I've heard nothing but praise for the stuff so I am going to give it a try

I have heard good things about Royal Purple too(I have never tried it though), I personally still like Amsoil.

I've actually never heard anything about amsoil :(

I've actually never heard anything about amsoil :(

They were the first company to develop a fully synthetic motor oil. It was needed for use in jet engines. Here is a link Amsoil (http://www.amsoil.com/) only down side is you have to get it from a dealer or become one yourself(there is also an option of prefered customer where you can direct order from them). I really like their products and have used a wide range of them. But its not for everyone i'm sure. :wink:

Amsoil is good stuff. It's all I've put in the Talon and all I will use. I used their oil filter too, but I was told I should only use a Mitsu filter due to a check valve in it? Have you guys heard of this also?

. I used their oil filter too, but I was told I should only use a Mitsu filter due to a check valve in it? Have you guys heard of this also?

I have heard that too, but because the cheaper ones fail somehow. I have used Amsoil filters since I have had my car and never had a problem, so I am going to keep using them.

Ok heres the scoop, all filters have check valves. What they do is when the filter gets clogged the valve pushes the filter element up so that oil can get around it so it doesnt starve the motor for oil. All filters have them, the difference is the elements that the filter uses. The cheap filters use a stupid paper element that isnt worth a hill of beans and then there is some like the oe mitsu one(which I use) that has a way better filter element so it doesnt clog as early. Thats really the only differences

I wonder how Amsoil filters elements rate...

I wonder how Amsoil filters elements rate...

I havn't seen any independent studies done, but the ones amsoil have done they have out performed the others(imagine that). Funny enough if my memory serves me correctly FRAM came in last in every test that I have ever seen.;) Word of advise, never use fram or penzoil.

I know a customer ran the same oil in a diesel semi, changing the filters at the proper intervals for about 400,000 miles, tore the motor down and everything was still within factory tolerances. so that has to say something about the quality of their filters. here was that test. (http://www.amsoil.com/testimonials/409000.aspx)

Like I said before, I am a firm believer in all of there products.

Ahhh, sweet.

Word of advise, never use fram or penzoil.
Whats wrong with Penzoil? You mean just their filters or their fluids too?

Drivetrain loss is made up of two main factors. One is parasitic losses like drag, the other is mass related losses. Lightening a flywheel or driveshaft will reduce the amount of power it takes to accelerate the drivetrain. Using lubricants that reduce friction will reduce drag at seals, ring to cylinder wall, etc. The point I like to make is that mass related losses tend to go up with more HP, meaning that using a set percentage will make some sense. But my personal theory is that parasitic losses will remain relatively similar as power goes up, meaning that a percentage is not the way to calculate the loss.

The easy way to sum this up is to say that as power goes up, the power loss percentage between the motor and wheels will go down... So while 20-30% is pretty accurate for cars at factory power levels, a car at 500 whp will lose a lower percentage of its crank power by the tie it gets to the wheels. More over power lost of course, just a smaller percentage. So I like to drop the figure to a nice round 20% on higher than stock HP cars, say 350whp or so and up.

Another factor that makes it difficult to guess a car's drivetrain loss is inacurate crank HP numbers from manufactures (we won't even get into the vast differences between chasis dynos...). The EVO is rated at 276 crank HP, but can dyno at like 250 to the wheels. Very unlikely that any AWD car will only have a ~10% drivetrain loss... I've seen lower numbers like 235 who, still only a 15% loss. Judging by this information and the airflow numbers at stock boost levels, it would seem that Mitsu is significantly under rating these motors for various suspected reasons. Even the 1g DSMs rated for 200 hp or so would dyno 180 at the wheels. etc. But, judging by some other AWD cars, the ~25% figure seems accurate for stock power level AWD vehicles.

More power = more friction = more heat = more power loss :)

Percentages actualy work very well add judging driveline power loss, regardless of changing power levels since most of the power is lost to heat.
(put your hand on your read diff after you have been for a long drive, it will get hot enough to burn you.)

Whats wrong with Penzoil? You mean just their filters or their fluids too?

NEVER put Penzoil into your motor!!! It is full of paraphens(wax). Over time the wax builds up inside your motor. I wouldn't ever purchase a Penzoil product. I pulled a intake mainifold off of a v-8 that was using Penzoil and there was nothing below it but a thick sludgey substance. same thing when the valve covers were pulled, and no it wasn't because the oil wasn't changed often enough. Penzoil is a shit product.;)

NEVER put Penzoil into your motor!!! It is full of paraphens(wax). Over time the wax builds up inside your motor. I wouldn't ever purchase a Penzoil product. I pulled a intake mainifold off of a v-8 that was using Penzoil and there was nothing below it but a thick sludgey substance. same thing when the valve covers were pulled, and no it wasn't because the oil wasn't changed often enough. Penzoil is a shit product.;)
Well, maybe just their oil. Shepherd told me that Penzoil Syncromesh was the best thing to put in our trannys. I hope it doesn't leave that same waxy residue in the trannys as well.

at the lube shop i work at, amsoil is the best stuff we got.

I checked out their website and this is what it said

"Pennzoil® Synchromesh Fluid is a synchromesh transmission fluid designed for certain manual transaxles and manual transmissions used by General Motors or Chrysler. Pennzoil® Synchromesh Fluid is formulated with high quality paraffinic base stocks, a fluidity modifier, multifunctional performance additives, corrosion inhibitors, a foam suppressor and a shear stable viscosity index improver additive. It provides excellent oxidation stability, low temperature performance, excellent synchronizer performance and compatibility with yellow metals, such as bronze, brass and copper components found in manual transaxles and transmissions. This product will satisfactorily lubricate General Motors or Chrysler manual transaxles and transmissions from -40°C to +150°C."

I wouldn't use it.

Currently I have BG Syncro Shift II in my tranny and TC. I dont have any complaints, but I will be switching to Amsoil this summer.

Shep has been warning against BG for a couple years now. Apparently every tranny that runs it is all burnt to shit, especially the shift forks, and there is a lot of galling on the gears. I had to replace parts every year running that fluid, so I don't doubt it, and he's seen more DSM trannies than any other human being on the face of this planet. He changes the details from time to time, but there is always a mix of a synchro friendly oil like the synchromesh with a heavier oil to take the abuse of high power, like shockproof heavy.

I can see the waxy stuff being a problem in motors, but consider the nature of the transmission I don't think it would be a problem. It's a completely different type of lubrication system, lower temperature, etc. But who knows. If the wax builds up or causes problems Shep will find out as he continues to open up these transmissions on a daily basis. I'll keep an eye out for any new news this year.

I wasn't really considering the different operating conditions between the two.
I still personally wouldn't buy a Penzoil product, but keep me posted if you hear anything from Shep. I am intersted to see what it does in a tranny.

I guess I will see if I can get some Amsoil in before the end of next week(going home for Spring Break) and get that BG shit out of my tranny. Well I am glad to know its shit now, but I wish I would have known that before I spent any money on it. thanks for the heads up Kevin.:thumbsup:

I'll be putting the Penzoil in my tranny in the next few days here and I'll let ya know how much better it is than any other tranny fluids.

I'm also thinking of that Shockproof for in my transfer case and rear diff. Anyone got any opinions on that or use it?