speakers

hey all, I'm looking to upgrade my 4 speakers.. I'm curious to know what to buy.. When i look around there are component, 2,3,4 way speakers.. First what is the difference between them. Second, which do you recommend.. I listen to mostly Alternative Rock.. Price isn't really an issue... I have a pair of subs in my trunk that works nicely to fill the car w/ better base.. Any thoughts or recommendations appreciated.. Thanks...

hey all, I'm looking to upgrade my 4 speakers.. I'm curious to know what to buy.. When i look around there are component, 2,3,4 way speakers.. First what is the difference between them. Second, which do you recommend.. I listen to mostly Alternative Rock.. Price isn't really an issue... I have a pair of subs in my trunk that works nicely to fill the car w/ better base.. Any thoughts or recommendations appreciated.. Thanks...

components up front, nothing or coax (2,3,4 way speakers) in the rear. You want your sound stage infront of you. (take for instance a live band, you don't turn around to listen to the music you face the band) Amp the components run the coax off the HU. Components usually consist of tweeters, woofer, and external crossover. Usually component sets sound better and since the tweeter is seperate it's better for imaging.

As for a 2 way speaker is a tweeter and a woofer combined. 3 way speakers has a midrange incorportated into it and 4 range has a super tweeter incorportated into it. Don't be wowed by a 4 way or a 5 way speaker.
Some suggestion on companies cadence, PG xenon set is pretty cheap ,JL ,eclipse, focal ect. there are alot of them out there.

Time aligned is better than a frontal image, imho.

I don't know snot about brands, cause I don't look at names, only t/s specs.

For a good time-aligned system, don't play a lot of highs from the back. mount your tweeters up high and pointed across. Put your mids down in your doors. Time align + correct speakers makes crossovers obsolete.

Time aligned is better than a frontal image, imho.

??? YOU TIME ALIGN TO GET A BETTER FRONT IMAGE

I don't know snot about brands, cause I don't look at names, only t/s specs.

I HAVE A FEW BRANDS I PREFER, T/S SPECS AREN'T GONNA DO MUCH FOR YOU WHEN LOOKING FOR A MIDRANGE OR TWEETER.

For a good time-aligned system, don't play a lot of highs from the back. mount your tweeters up high and pointed across. Put your mids down in your doors. Time align + correct speakers makes crossovers obsolete

????? IF YOU HAVE SEPERATE MIDS AND TWEETERS, YOU MUST HAVE A CROSSOVER OF SOME TYPE - FAILURE TO BLOCK LOWER FREQUENCIES FROM A SPEAKER THAT IS INCAPABLE OF HANDLING IT WILL DESTROY THEM VERY QUICKLY. SEPERATING THE MID AND TWEET BY A FOOT OR MORE WILL CAUSE COMB FILTERING - A NASTY SOUND THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO FIX. IF YOU PUT TWEETS IN THE A-PILLAR, CROSS THEM OVER HIGH, LIKE 5-6 KHz.
.

I think you are trying to say something different and using the wrong terms.

Time aligned is better than a frontal image, imho.
??? YOU TIME ALIGN TO GET A BETTER FRONT IMAGE
I think we're talking about 2 different things, probably. Or maybe we just align them differently. For me, it gets aligned so it sound like I'm wearing some really high end headphones.

I don't know snot about brands, cause I don't look at names, only t/s specs.
I HAVE A FEW BRANDS I PREFER, T/S SPECS AREN'T GONNA DO MUCH FOR YOU WHEN LOOKING FOR A MIDRANGE OR TWEETER.
Midrange, yes. Tweeters, no. I take recommandations on tweeters.

For a good time-aligned system, don't play a lot of highs from the back. mount your tweeters up high and pointed across. Put your mids down in your doors. Time align + correct speakers makes crossovers obsolete

????? IF YOU HAVE SEPERATE MIDS AND TWEETERS, YOU MUST HAVE A CROSSOVER OF SOME TYPE - FAILURE TO BLOCK LOWER FREQUENCIES FROM A SPEAKER THAT IS INCAPABLE OF HANDLING IT WILL DESTROY THEM VERY QUICKLY. SEPERATING THE MID AND TWEET BY A FOOT OR MORE WILL CAUSE COMB FILTERING - A NASTY SOUND THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO FIX. IF YOU PUT TWEETS IN THE A-PILLAR, CROSS THEM OVER HIGH, LIKE 5-6 KHz.
Don't get midranges that can't play low. Like I said, I look at t/s specs. Full range drivers all around with the highpass filter set at 80hz on the amp. The only reason there is any filter on that line is because the switch is broken and I can't change it, so I just have it turned down to as low as possible. I have yet to hear anything nasty from my tweeters as result of the lower tones, maybe they've got "bass blockers" inside. Comb filtering, ain't heard nothing yet. Crisp, clean, without faults.

I'm actually thinking of making a subwoofer wall right behind my back seat, maybe incorporate some good powerful mids into that as well.

time alignment is when you delay a speaker closer to you by a few milliseconds to trick your ear into thinking it is the same distance from you as the other (further) speaker - this only works for the frequencies in which your ears are time sensitive.

What you are calling alignment is just matching relative intensity (volume). That's a normal part of tuning but I don't use rear speakers, all six of my drivers are in front of me.

As for comb filtering, you may have never heard a properly setup front stage - so you may not know comb filtering if you heard it.

Further proof Jet-lee is a moron.

nG

time alignment is when you delay a speaker closer to you by a few milliseconds to trick your ear into thinking it is the same distance from you as the other (further) speaker - this only works for the frequencies in which your ears are time sensitive.

What you are calling alignment is just matching relative intensity (volume). That's a normal part of tuning but I don't use rear speakers, all six of my drivers are in front of me.
We are talking about the same time alignment, we obviously go about it different ways. I wasn't talking about matching relative volume, but changing the degree of phase of each speaker dependent upon where it is in the car in relation to you, or the focal point wherever it may be.

As for comb filtering, you may have never heard a properly setup front stage - so you may not know comb filtering if you heard it.
Possible. Description?

Further proof Jet-lee is a moron.

nG
Or if you waited 'till I got back from my honeymoon, you'd see that I had a response.

blah blah blah


Nope. Simply put. You're just a...

NUMB SKULL

nG

changing the phase of a speaker is not time alignment either ..... keep guessing

Keeps digging himself a deeper hole. Further proof of his LACK of knowledge.

nG

5) Time aligned:

When a speaker system is said to be time aligned it usually refers to the ability of the speaker to produce a sharp, single rise in acoustic output, followed by an exponential decay (with some oscillation) when subject to a step change in input signal. Non time aligned systems typically produce a distorted rise, consisting of multiple pulses associated with the woofer and tweeter seperately. More simply put, in a time aligned system the initial woofer and tweeter signals, in response to a step change in input, reach the listener at the same time. Of course, this only happens on the design axis. Time aligned system may or may not be phase coherent, phase aligned, or truely transient accutate.
Soooo.......phasing the speakers differently to get the sound to reach your target at the same time....is Time Alignment.

hmmmm. Pauld has 1,815 posts in almost 4 years and Jet-lee has 2,270 in 2 years. It is obvious to me that in half the time, jet-lee has posted double the amount of the posts as Pauld. I think we've really been overlooking the righteousness of jet-lee. I for one nominate him for president of AF, Communism and all knowing for all. .....PS, Maybe Pauld should learn something from jet-lee and post more, even if it is not true or he has no idea about the topic. LOL> J/k PaulD

hmmmm. Pauld has 1,815 posts in almost 4 years and Jet-lee has 2,270 in 2 years. It is obvious to me that in half the time, jet-lee has posted double the amount of the posts as Pauld. I think we've really been overlooking the righteousness of jet-lee. I for one nominate him for president of AF, Communism and all knowing for all. .....PS, Maybe Pauld should learn something from jet-lee and post more, even if it is not true or he has no idea about the topic. LOL> J/k PaulD
I simply post more in OT.

And where was post counts ever brought up as who was smarter?

EDIT-And who said I was smarter than PaulD? Not I.

I sure didn't say you were smarter than PaulD, So it looks like you did. I don't think PaulD would appreciate you calling him stupid Jet-lee. I think you should apologize.

If you can show me where I said I was smarter than he, I'll gladly apologize. Until then, stfu and quit putting words in my mouth.

EDIT- However, you did imply that PaulD was inferior to myself by making the following statement.
Maybe Pauld should learn something from jet-lee and post more
I feel you are the one owing PaulD an apology.

So anyway for the guy who started this thread, just get some good components up front and a nice amp for them and you should be good to go!

said I was smarter than PaulD

Right out of your quote.

You should probably include the rest of my quote.

Maybe Pauld should learn something from jet-lee and post more, even if it is not true or he has no idea about the topic

I don't know if I should stop putting stuff in your mouth, I like it. You have soft but strong lips. :icon16:

You should probably include the rest of my quote.
Eat your own words:
I simply post more in OT.

And where was post counts ever brought up as who was smarter?

EDIT-And who said I was smarter than PaulD? Not I.

Please, someone lock this thread.

QUOUTE FRON JET-LEE:
5) Time aligned:

When a speaker system is said to be time aligned it usually refers to the ability of the speaker to produce a sharp, single rise in acoustic output, followed by an exponential decay (with some oscillation) when subject to a step change in input signal. Non time aligned systems typically produce a distorted rise, consisting of multiple pulses associated with the woofer and tweeter seperately. More simply put, in a time aligned system the initial woofer and tweeter signals, in response to a step change in input, reach the listener at the same time. Of course, this only happens on the design axis. Time aligned system may or may not be phase coherent, phase aligned, or truely transient accutate.

Soooo.......phasing the speakers differently to get the sound to reach your target at the same time....is Time Alignment.

Where in the world did you draw that conclusion from ? .... enquiring minds wanna know :rofl: . The only place time align and phase are mentioned is the last sentence - it just says a time aligned system may not be in phase. This must be from a home stereo page, they used to stagger the depth of the drivers to try and achieve better time alignment. That IS the effect of time alignment done electronically, it makes speakers appear to be slightly farther away.

"Non time aligned systems typically produce a distorted rise, consisting of multiple pulses associated with the woofer and tweeter seperately .."
This sounds like comb filtering

As for post count, This is one of the few forums on here I post on - and I often don't answer questions about bass stuff since there are guys on here that know far more than I do about it. But I DO read them and learn stuff. I have never thought I knew everything, if fact the more I learn the more I realize I don;t know,

And for the name calling, etc ... I will not lower myself to that level.

So to summarize the thread:

1.Jet-lee is an imbicile
2.He proved yet again his lack of knowledge
3.He did #2 numerous times in this thread alone
4.He still doesn't get it
5.He is IN FACT a Numbskull.

That is all.

nG

gee, I was hoping you guys got more out of this thread than that .....

5) Time aligned:

When a speaker system is said to be time aligned it usually refers to the ability of the speaker to produce a sharp, single rise in acoustic output, followed by an exponential decay (with some oscillation) when subject to a step change in input signal. Non time aligned systems typically produce a distorted rise, consisting of multiple pulses associated with the woofer and tweeter seperately. More simply put, in a time aligned system the initial woofer and tweeter signals, in response to a step change in input, reach the listener at the same time. Of course, this only happens on the design axis. Time aligned system may or may not be phase coherent, phase aligned, or truely transient accutate.

Soooo.......phasing the speakers differently to get the sound to reach your target at the same time....is Time Alignment.

Where in the world did you draw that conclusion from ? .... enquiring minds wanna know :rofl: . The only place time align and phase are mentioned is the last sentence - it just says a time aligned system may not be in phase. This must be from a home stereo page, they used to stagger the depth of the drivers to try and achieve better time alignment. That IS the effect of time alignment done electronically, it makes speakers appear to be slightly farther away.
The second half says "More simply put..." which also means, "In other words" or "In Laymans terms." It's saying there is a step change in input, or phase difference, between the woofer and tweeter to allow the drivers to be at different distances and the matching frequency waves from each reach you at the same time.

"Non time aligned systems typically produce a distorted rise, consisting of multiple pulses associated with the woofer and tweeter seperately .."
This sounds like comb filtering
Duh. If the pulses aren't aligned, then there are multiple at different frequencies.

As for post count, This is one of the few forums on here I post on - and I often don't answer questions about bass stuff since there are guys on here that know far more than I do about it. But I DO read them and learn stuff. I have never thought I knew everything, if fact the more I learn the more I realize I don;t know,
Then why do you keep arguing with me instead of thinking of this as one of those things you didn't already know, or already know fully.

I don't know everything, but what I do know I know everything about, and this is one of those.

And for the name calling, etc ... I will not lower myself to that level.
It appears ngsm13 is the only one on that level.

So to summarize the thread:

1.Jet-lee is an imbicile
2.He proved yet again his lack of knowledge
3.He did #2 numerous times in this thread alone
4.He still doesn't get it
5.He is IN FACT a Numbskull.

That is all.

nG
1. No need to name-call to boost your self esteem, you could get a girlfriend.
2. You don't know the extent of my knowledge.
3. You haven't shown knowledge about anything except that Wal-Mart speakers are no good; most everyone knows that.
4. I don't get why a person that knows nothing about the subject at hand says I'm ignorant.
5. There you go with the name-calling again.

Come up with better responses, maybe we'll let you sit at the big kids table. Seriously, my 16 year old sister could give better responses.

16 Huh. That means she's legal. Do you have any pictures? ;-) And what if NG doesn't want a girlfriend? What if he is gay and his boyfriend beats him and thats why he's so mean on here? Huh, what then? I think you're pregidist against gay people. I think it's time for an ass beating.

16 Huh. That means she's legal. Do you have any pictures? ;-) And what if NG doesn't want a girlfriend? What if he is gay and his boyfriend beats him and thats why he's so mean on here? Huh, what then? I think you're pregidist against gay people. I think it's time for an ass beating.
18 would be legal, 16's not. Do you want to get in touch with the last person she dated? I think his room has a phone by the IV bag.

I don't give a shit if he's gay.

prejudice

Do you want my address, for that ass beating? You can come on down any day of the week and we'll square off, if that's what you wanna do.

Square dance with your sister, I would love that. Thanks for offering. I'll take your address.

square-off with me, you know, for that ass beating you intend to give?

Anyways.....
1395 E Henry De Tonti Blvd
Springdale, AR 72762

1. No need to name-call to boost your self esteem, you could get a girlfriend.
2. You don't know the extent of my knowledge.
3. You haven't shown knowledge about anything except that Wal-Mart speakers are no good; most everyone knows that.
4. I don't get why a person that knows nothing about the subject at hand says I'm ignorant.
5. There you go with the name-calling again.

Come up with better responses, maybe we'll let you sit at the big kids table. Seriously, my 16 year old sister could give better responses.

As stated previously, I posess more 12v knowledge than you could ever DREAM of having.

Every time you open your mouth here, you further prove your LACK of knowledge.

Want to come play with the big boys and get your ass laughed off a site? Come on over to www.caraudio.com or www.teamssaudio.com or www.carstereos.org

Later kid.

nG

As stated previously, I posess more 12v knowledge than you could ever DREAM of having.

Every time you open your mouth here, you further prove your LACK of knowledge.

Want to come play with the big boys and get your ass laughed off a site? Come on over to www.caraudio.com or www.teamssaudio.com or www.carstereos.org

Later kid.

nG
And listen to more kids talk about mainstream audio? I'll pass. There's enough of that here. Yes, I have browsed all of those and then some, but I work in person with people a little more knowledgeable in sound dynamics and engineering than your little friends.

"What component set should I install in my doors?" "MB Quart is awesome yo!"

Yeah, I'll stick to my Fostex, Focal and Aura.

Possess more 12v knowledge? Then show it. Looks like the only thing you have more experience at is namecalling and wannabe-flaming.

Jet Lee, seriously, 70% of the memebers on SSA and SIN are either EXTREMELY intelegent or pretty well experenced.

The prominent members posses more audio knowledge and experence than you or i or paul will probably ever want to know about. They design their own drivers and they compeate in the top classes in SPL competitons and win.

CA.com is another story. I hate the place but i use it to pass the time.

As far as noah's knowledge, i'd liek to see yo uexceed 150dB on TL with a single 15 in an extended cab truck in a daily system. That isnt ment as a cut down as i coudlnt either, at least now with out bunch of messing around.

as for time alignment, putting speakers out of phase is not time alignment. It delays the audio signal, not plays the audiosignals out of phase. Electornically it takes some fancy schmancy equiptment or alot of cable (lol) or yo ucan do like HT guys do and stagar the speakers essentially making them the same distance from your ears.

Time alignment, from my understanding, only shows small (or anal in paul's case, lol) benefits in the range in which we are most sensitive to hearing in, 800Hz-4kHz. anywhere else 1ms isnt gonna change how we hear it. Alot like dopler distortion, it isnt a real big deal unless your anal.

once agian im not meaning any of this as a cut down, just showing you facts i know and giving my experence with the boards you cut down. sofar the only question ive asked on SSA that hasnt gone defenetively unansweared was what putting thedriver in a TL 1/3 of the way down the line will do to the real world first resonance since you are essentially making it an open pipe.

Jet Lee, seriously, 70% of the memebers on SSA and SIN are either EXTREMELY intelegent or pretty well experenced.
SIN?

The prominent members posses more audio knowledge and experence than you or i or paul will probably ever want to know about. They design their own drivers and they compeate in the top classes in SPL competitons and win.
SIN?

CA.com is another story. I hate the place but i use it to pass the time.
1st part - agreed
2nd part - I don't even go there to pass time, I'd rather watch paint dry.

As far as noah's knowledge, i'd liek to see yo uexceed 150dB on TL with a single 15 in an extended cab truck in a daily system. That isnt ment as a cut down as i coudlnt either, at least now with out bunch of messing around.
What the time limit? I wanna try it.

EDIT - Gimme some specifics: Speaker, available space, material type, material thickness, what frequency?

as for time alignment, putting speakers out of phase is not time alignment. It delays the audio signal, not plays the audiosignals out of phase. Electornically it takes some fancy schmancy equiptment or alot of cable (lol) or yo ucan do like HT guys do and stagar the speakers essentially making them the same distance from your ears.

Time alignment, from my understanding, only shows small (or anal in paul's case, lol) benefits in the range in which we are most sensitive to hearing in, 800Hz-4kHz. anywhere else 1ms isnt gonna change how we hear it. Alot like dopler distortion, it isnt a real big deal unless your anal.
If you pull phase from the speaker closest to you, amount of phase pulled being dependent upon the distance, you get the sound reaching your ears at the exact same time from two different locations. It really doesn't have to take fancy equipment (although if you got the money to burn, why not). I am anal, especially after aligning my car stereo. No one has left my drivers seat without a smile on their face and a request for me to do the same to their vehicle.

once agian im not meaning any of this as a cut down, just showing you facts i know and giving my experence with the boards you cut down. sofar the only question ive asked on SSA that hasnt gone defenetively unansweared was what putting thedriver in a TL 1/3 of the way down the line will do to the real world first resonance since you are essentially making it an open pipe.
I don't treat your posts as cut-downs or flames, as you go about it in a mature manner. No 16 y/o name-calling.

SSA being TeamSSAudio.com?

yeas SSA is TeamSSaudio.com or SoundSolutionsAudio.com/Forum

SIN is Carstereos.org, formerly known as SoundIllusions.Net.

Hitting 150 on the TL in an extended cab pickup is no small feat. Took KickenAudio, a mod on SSA who lives about 1.5hrs from me, alot of time and effort and i think he finally ended up with 4 SoloX12's and 5kw of power and 16 runs of 1/0 cable. and that is in an SUV.

if you wanna try... Anyspeaker in the same pricerange as the Death Penulty (i think he is tunning an MT now though, not sure). space of w/e extended cab you have, no walls allowed (including half walls), daily ish tuning (anything below 40Hz could be considered daily IMO), w/e material you want that would be legal in dB Drag and MECA.

Im expecting to be doing over 150 on Audio Controll with a single 18 tomarrow with 1kw and 38Hz tuning. higher with some tuning and mic time...and very clsoe to it with 800w and 28Hz tuning. but that is Audio Controll Mics where arent near as accurate as TL (ie give higher scores, even well calibrated TL is easily 2-3dB lower with the same system in the same conditions).

Im not saying it cant be done but it isnt a n00bx acheivement. :)

BTW, i am 16. :)

I found the web page jet copied his info from ...... I just wish he had read the enire page, it was quite informative. Seems that in his experience (pro or home audio), staggering the speakers so that the mouth of the drivers are even is what they call time alignment so I can certainly see where he would get this stuff from.

This is however, an AUTOMOTIVE forum. So let me do a review of my own:

1) I originally responded to this thread because of his statement that carefully choosing speaker locations would allow you to "ditch" the crossover. I deemed this as irresponsible and I didn't someone to blow up his speakers trying it

2) Jet's type of time-alignment would mean carefully choosing a location where the tweeter is exactly the distance from the listener as the mid. Unfortunately, placing them that far apart will almost assuredly result in comb filtering - the adding and subtraction of waves at varying frequencies. Additionally, as stated in the rest of the article you qouted, this type of time alignment only applies when the cones are pointed DIRECTLY at you. This never happens in pod intalls - you aim the mids at the back of the radio (appx).

3) Everyone else in car audio (who does this) puts the tweeters up high to raise the image. There are SO many things in car audio to deal with, the car is a VERY harsh environment for accurate musical reproduction. Richard Clark once gave this example .... if you were to take some very good speakers and intsall them in a car and take measurements, then ask an audio engineer to make a speaker that sounded like that - his response would be "I don't know how to make a car sound that bad."


My guess would be, Jet works for people that do professional sound reinforcement and has picked up some buzz words ... but has nowhere near mastered the subject.

Didnt Noah graduate at the top of his class? and a whole bunch of other achievements wich do PROVE his knowledge, just like Jet asked for. Seems you need to start proving Jet.

ps. you dumb

My guess would be, Jet works for people that do professional sound reinforcement and has picked up some buzz words ... but has nowhere near mastered the subject.

BINGO!
He's a regurgitator. Googles stuff, and then tries to make it seem like he knows what is going on.

Also Jet... mainstream? Are you that retarded, obviously you haven't even browsed any of them. I only use three "mainstream" items in my entire vehicle.

Fostex? Solid home audio full range drivers.

Focal? Excellent SQ... but lacking in output sometimes. Also, expensive authorized.

Aura? Good stuff, not really around all that much anymore. Pretty much gone, all you can find is used. At least in the car audio world...

Anything else child?

nG

Didnt Noah graduate at the top of his class? and a whole bunch of other achievements wich do PROVE his knowledge, just like Jet asked for. Seems you need to start proving Jet.

ps. you dumb

Did you graduate university already Noah?