acetone in gas

Hi Everyone,

I pulled this quote from the "what's your gas mileage?" poll, cause I think it warrants it's own debate.

" Re: Poll - What is your Metro's Gas Mileage?
96 1.3 sedan
46mpg with acetone (see comment below)
50% casual 50% hard driving
Gets 40mpg with straight gas, 34mpg with ethanol gas, and adding acetone gives a 15% (6mpg) increase in either situation with nicely noticeable power boost and better cold-starts... see http://www.silentpulseinstruments.com/bgm.html for elaborations.

Sure would be nice to get a 15% increase in a 3cyl or bike!
GeeOh is offline Report Bad Post Reply With Quote"

First, I don't think you will see a larger increase in fuel performance after your repairs, since metros already use technology to get the most out of fuel.

Second, I would be concerned with mixing acetone in ethanol blended gas. Ethanol blended gas causes water to seperate out of the gas, causing probles. Don't get it confused MTBE or Methyl Tertiary Butylated Ethyl (I think...) MTBE is differant, and performs better than ethanol blended gas. Anyway, what I'm saying is, acetone may not create desireable results when mxed with ethanol gas.

Third, has anubody really looked at a car that uses acetone for long term problems? Experiments in a lab are a well and fine. Care to chip in your 2 cents here Doctorbill?

I'm not running out to buy acetone just yet.

Jai

I won't quote your reply, Blake, for the sake of room here....

You are correct as far as I can see on this topic.

Engines were designed to run on gasoline (unless we are told otherwise).

Burning characteristics would vary with the fuel. Energy production would
vary with the fuel. Combustion by-products would vary with the fuel.

Different Organic Compounds will have effects on rubber components -
especially Chlorinated Organics (hydrocarbon compounds).

Any chlorinated hydrocarbon will produce HCl upon combustion - Hydrochloric Acid.

Acetone has a different vapor pressure than gasoline as does Ethanol (drinking alcohol).

Acetone is a Ketone. Is the rubber in seals and tubing made to withstand this organic?

Yes, any engine will probably combust all these organics, but probably not well
and probably with odd combustion products - all resulting in lower or higher power,
perhaps valve or catalytic converter or muffler damage. Who knows?

Ethanol was put into gasoline by the Environmentalists - they could give a shit about
whether or not your car is damaged. They will experiment on an entire generation of
people and cars. If they are wrong - who do you blame? - any names to go back to?

If you put anything other than "normal gasoline" (WHAT is THAT!?) in the tank, you take a chance
on slowly or quickly ruining the engine. If you have a large disposable income - go ahead!

I heard that many of the off-brand gas stations (no name cheap gas) actually put quite a
lot of USED OIL into the gasoline! How would anyone know?

Buying gas is like buy illicite drugs - what are you getting? No FDA watching out.
If there is a government agency watching out for our gasoline quality - GOOD LUCK BUD!

I place no faith in government agencies!
Only the IRS pursues anything with vigor....
Your ass mostly.....

Sorry - I'm in a bad mood. Student problems.....

DoctorBill

Since we're on the subject of alternative fuels, I was wondering about the prospect of running on pure hydrogen. It's a project I'd been thinking of toying with this summer with a Metro (1.0) that was given to me last fall. Any thoughts or comments from anyone would be appreciated.
Steve

Since we're on the subject of alternative fuels, I was wondering about the prospect of running on pure hydrogen. It's a project I'd been thinking of toying with this summer with a Metro (1.0) that was given to me last fall. Any thoughts or comments from anyone would be appreciated.
Steve

Hydrogen - how would you carry it? In a cylinder compressed to high pressure?

Hydrogen burns with a colorless flame. If you get into an accident, BYE!

Cylinders are very heavy and don't hold much Hydrogen per unit weight.

You need metal-hydride chemistry which is not cheap nor easy. In fact - difficult and
DANGEROUS. The Hydrogen "dissolves into" or is adsorbed onto an expensive
sintered metal under pressure. Heat is released. Heat must be applied to release the
Hydrogen while driving.

All in all, quite a sophisticated deal. What is your source of hydrogen and how
would you store it as the bulk fuel? Where? How would you transfer it?

Fire insurance problems? Government agency problems? Zoning?
Neighbors who find out they live near Hydrogen? That's why it isn't put into blimps
and dirigibles anymore..... THE HINDENBURG.

AND - would burning Hydrogen in an engine designed for a hydrocarbon fuel cause the
engine to burn up? A hydrogen - oxygen flame is quite hot. Water vapor ONLY is
produced. Would the exhaust system need to be warmed to prevent huge volumes
of condensed water from building up?

How would one inject or carburet that system?

I think that that is why "Hybrid" cars are such a big deal. But then, maybe taking the
engineering from Propane automobiles would work better....(?)

Most of the problems with Hydrogen, in my opinion, would come from storing the damned
stuff! It is a gas at normal temperatures. You cannot see a leak when it is burning!

Run screaming into the night!

Hydrogen + Oxygen ---> Water + Energy. Sounds simple. Not in an Automobile.

DoctorBill

PS - I'll make you a bet, though! When the Oil runs out, a 'Newly Discovered" hydrogen
storage and fuel system will miraculously be discovered. It will be expensive but available.
Patented technology.....Guess who will own it....

And just like Booze - it will be illegal to make it yourself! Taxes.......

PS #2 - I read that the City of San Francisco is going to invest in a "Dog-poop-to-energy plant..."
(by Kim Curtis - Associated Press) in today's Spokesman review here in Spokane.
Now there is an idea! Getcha self a couple a big dogs, collect their crap and make a
big Methane Digester on top of yer Geo Metro! Run it off-a crap! San Francisco.......

Actually, from what happens to me with a couple of cans of Nalley's Chili, I could stick a tube
up my butt and drive the 30 miles into Spokane w/o any problem!

Doc,
I recently acquired plans for a simple hydrogen generator. I have assembled a partial prototype from the plans but have not attempted to test it. According to the info that I got, when DC voltage is passed between two stainless steel plates submerged in water it splits off hydrogen atoms. If this is correct, then I should be able to generate and store small quantites of hydrogen under low pressure into a small chamber. A pressure switch would maintain the chamber pressure by turning the generator on and off as needed. A pressure regulator would bleed off the hydrogen from the chamber feeding it into the Throttle Body Injector as needed. Any chance this theory has any merit?

Check out "hydrogen generator" on ebay.
Steve

This is likely taking things on a tangent, but we've all been quite sucessful doing that in this thread, so her it goes. First, I agree with Doc

PS - I'll make you a bet, though! When the Oil runs out, a 'Newly Discovered" hydrogen
storage and fuel system will miraculously be discovered. It will be expensive but available.
Patented technology.....Guess who will own it....


Point One, I think hydrogen will get very popular, if only because from an energy standpoint, it doesn't make sense. It takes so much energy to split hydrogen off of oxygen, that there is no net gain. If the process is done with electricity made from coal (it is in Alberta anyway) then the process still creates huge pollution problems. Can you imagine how much more coal, propane or natural gas would be required than we currently use? And this is exactly why the current oil refineries would dish out hydrogen, they allready own the pipelines to do it.

Point two, I dissagree with docs statemant that environmentalists don't give a shit about your car. True, they want us to stop driving, but they definetly don't want us to go through cars faster.

Point three, methanol or ethanol blended into gas is loosing favour with environmentalists since it is being made with new crops, instead of waste products, which was the original intent. Every acre of corn or wheat that is grown for it's alcohol is sprayed with pesticides, takes up land that could be used for something more important and has to be fertilized with petroleum based fertilizers. And then you have to distill out the alcohol which like hydrogen is not a net energy gain. It's moronic. I thought it seemed like a good idea at first, but I have pumped the last methanol gas into my tank.

And if the tangent goes as far as to include Sept. 11, you should look at this link. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change

Please do not think that I believe everything that is contained there, I just think it is worth comparing with the official story to see if any of it is true. And, whoever is responsible is not as important as how terrible that must have been for everyone affected. I cried for New York that day.

Doc,
According to the info that I got, when DC voltage is passed between two stainless steel
plates submerged in water it splits off hydrogen atoms.

That is plain & simple electrolysis. Pass DC thru acidified water and you generate
Oxygen at the Cathode (positive electrode) and Hydrogen at the Anode (negative
electrode). This requires power. If you charge a battery, discharge it thru water to obtain
Hydrogen and Oxygen, then burn the two to power a vehicle - you have wasted a lot of
power. Why not run the vehicle on DC power via DC Motors and forego the electrolysis?

If this is correct, then I should be able to generate and store small
quantites of hydrogen under low pressure into a small chamber. A pressure switch would
maintain the chamber pressure by turning the generator on and off as needed. A pressure
regulator would bleed off the hydrogen from the chamber feeding it into the Throttle Body
Injector as needed. Any chance this theory has any merit?

None whatsoever! How many horsepower does a Geo Metro develop normally?
That amount of power (x 2 or x3) would be required to make A LOT of Hydrogen and
Oxygen to power the Geo Metro. Each step has less than 50% efficiency.

If a Geo develops 50 horse power while driving, then you need probably 120 hp to make
enough Hydrogen and Oxygen to run the engine. Where does that 120 hp come from?
The DC Battery? Lotsa batteries, my friend. Where you gonna charge the Batteries?
At home? The power company will love you. Take many hours also.

It would be easier to carry the hydrogen (compressed or as a metal-hydride) than make
it in situ. Why introduce the extra step if you have the battery power available
on the spot?

Obtaining Hydrogen is costly and time consuming. If it comes from anything other than
water, it will actully cause pollution. If it comes from water, then it will require a lot of
electricity.

Apparently direct photoelectric production of hydrogen from water is around the corner.

I am waiting for Mr Fusion as in "Back to the Future." lol.....

It is 11:20 and I am tired. I may be spouting gibberish here for all I know....
Gave an Exam today in Chemistry. I have a nasty student problem. Some 'so called'
college students are nothing more than problem high school students who have just
aged several years.....

DoctorBill

Better yet, Blake - buy the "Intellectual Rights" to taking a dump or taking a piss.

Maybe the "Intellectual Rights" to intercourse.....

Then hire a very large cadre of huge muscle men (give them free rights to do those things)
and have them enforce your "Intellectual Rights".......

Kind of like the IRS taxes us when we earn money or buy something....

Then our 'Supreme Court' would find in your favor (because it is nonsensical) and you would then own the world.

But of course, the IRS gets 33% of all that money. Then they give it to all the poor people
who don't work.

Man, am I in a bad mood or WHAT! Such non-Liberal thinking.... BAD BOY!

DoctorBill

When I die, I want to die like my grandfather -
who died peacefully in his sleep.....
Not screaming and yelling like all the passengers in his car
as it went over the cliff."

I never understood any of the arguments in favor of Hydrogen. H2 is not a source of energy - it is merely a means to store/transport energy. (I wish I could find me a hydrogen well, or should I mine it?) It's an astonishingly difficult, costly and dangerous way to transport a bottle of energy. Celluosic Ethanol sounds attractive, if it can be done on a large scale, could fit into existing infrastructure...

Funny that the discussion on H2 comes up on here. Someone at work was discussing the same contraption with me to put on his Ford F-150. I brought up the same arguments that H2 is an energy carrier but to get it takes up too much energy to make it practical, but he didn't get it, I gave up.

Dr. Bill, here's a question for you. Do you subscribe to the 'Peak Oil' theory? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that.

I love your picture and caption, by the way, you are so correct.

And good luck with your overgrown High Schoolers. LOL