Clearing up the rumors of GM's RWD program!!
Pontiac Ninja
02-11-2006, 05:19 PM
I just found this over on gminsidenews.com. Wasn't sure where to post it, but I thought this crowd would appreciate it. LEt me know if I should post it somewhere different moderator!
This guy has alot of contacts with GM (can ask the right questions as he says) and other car related places and contributes to the rumors section every now and then to help diffuse the crap. It is a VERY good read and explains alot of things floating around about the different chasis platforms and RWD plans for buick, pontiac. and GM especially. Unfortunately there will be no TA, but a possible Firebird type someday. The grand prix may be gone soon as well.
There's a few pretty intresting rumors floating around on various sites that I wanted to cut through, and maybe clear up without giving away anything that would get me nasty-grams from people I'd consider friends, or give too much away from books that are being worked on.
1st, the Zeta. Last year it came out that Zeta was dead. It wasn't and isn't, and never was. GM is a company that has backup plans to it's backup plan's backup plan. The initial idea was that Zeta would be done by GM-Holden, and GM-North America would simply make the same cars here, with perhaps different styling. Keep in mind that Zeta is more about being a modular assembly method than being a particular architecture.
What Holden came up with was a vehicle that was based on the current VZ (Commodore series) car. Much of the structure was carried over. big difference was the rear Independent Suspension was far more complex, and (like the Sigma) a self contained unit attached to it's own subframe. This was affordable to Holden because it required only modest changes to it's existing methods of assembly, but for GM-NA, it would have been much along the same lines as creating a new car.
Another issue is that the structure required additional added on pieces to pass upcoming US rear crash standards, adding weight. Finally, there was an issue with parts. Holden is mostly self sufficient. Most of the parts, right down to instrament panel assembly is done in house, while GM-NA tends to outsource alot of their items. in the end, the car didn't make sense, and GM looked at other alternatives.
Many years ago, GM began a project in which a "Sigma-lite" chassis was under development. This was put on ice by the "Old' GM management, but seems to have been dusted off and sent to Holden for more work and cost cutting. This structure was ideal because from the start, it was made for US crash standards, and utilized alot of the "blue metal" from existing structures (assume they mean "Sigma").
In the end, what apparently came out was a new "zeta" chassis that was as versatile as the Holden version, a bit cheaper to build (thanks to the addition of struts up front), and in the end all but guaranteed that the new Holden VE Zeta will be a short lived car as GM standardizes it's worldwide "Volume" RWD chassis.
Now, about what's going to come off that chassis.
You have heard all kinds of rumors by now on everything from Grand Nationals to Firebirds.
Buick is NOT going to create any car that goes against it's "theme". That includes Grand Nationals, GNXs, or anything that doesn't fit in with "American Road" cars. By every account, it ain't goinna happen. What IS likely to happen is that Buick will get a convertible in the form of the Velite concept. Last word I recieved is that it won't be based on the Zeta, but on another chassis. Keeping speculation out of the mix, that could mean Kappa, Espilon, or (and this is also unlikely) the Y-body. So it could be FWD or RWD. The car did go through a dramatic change when GM re-evaluated what vehicles should be RWD & which didn't need to be.
Firebird currently ISN'T in the cards. GM is very aware that it essentially spent twice to sell the same car, and they are getting away from that by eliminating overlap. What IS possible or likely is that Pontiac will gain a large coupe. It's also possible this coupe may even be a quad coupe. Although a "Firebird" could possibly be done in the last minute, Trans Am will never return. GM paid a royalty on the name (a story in itself). They've been trying to get out of it since the 3rd gen.
There were a pair and maybe even a trio of coupes that were proposed over a year ago for Chevy, Pontiac, and maybe Buick as well. These were the cars delayed along with the original Zeta sedans. This line was supposed to replace the GTO, Bonneville, Monte Carlo, and Park Avenue. As you may very well know by now, those models are left hanging, since all now have a gap in their replacements.
Finally, what can we expect with the new "Zetas"?
The chassis is primarily Chevrolet's. It a large car chassis, as planned back when the whole Zeta idea was talked about back in 2002. But unlike initial plans, it's going to be a dramatically smaller project than origionally planned.
Expect a full sized Chevrolet sedan based on the chassis. Also expect a Pontiac sedan. Expect a Buick sedan. Expect a coupe for Chevrolet & Holden. Also expect a variation of the coupe for Pontiac.
You probally heard rumors that the GTO and Camaro are the same car. Not so. Both were different projects. Camaro was done by GM-NA. Holden did the Monaro replacement and next GTO.
As for when we can expect the new Camaro, that seems to no longer be a secret. Seems after not even wanting to talk about the possibility of a new Camaro for over 3 years, it's now the only thing GM seems to want to talk about. Bob Lutz is almost bursting at the seams trying not to say too much. Ed Welburn himself publically said Camaro could be done very quickly if approved. My own sources say Camaro will likely be out quicker than anyone expects once given the go ahead. Why?
Typically, a concept is given to focus groups and the results are sent back to designers and engineers numerous times for changes. Bob Lutz already said there would be no aditional focus groups for Camaro... "if approved".
Next, as most of you noticed, there was already an extremely detailed CAD of the chassis. The underhood work was done over 2 years ago. This is perhaps the most complete "Concept Car" in automotive history.
Finally, under normal conditions, a new car needs to wait for an existing vehicle to run it's course before the plant is converted. GM has excess capacity, so it's not going to put a car in a plant that's too big for it (as was done with the 4th gen). Logic would dictate that a coupe would be made on the same assembly line as the sedan it's based on (ie: Monte Carlo & Impala) to protect it against fluxuations in the coupe market. However, when GM announced that it's closing one of it's Oshawa Canada plants, and Bob Lutz announced that Camaro "If approved" (again, that disclaimer) would not be made in Canada. That left only one plant.
Wilmington Delaware used to make the Saturn L. It's capable of making over 200,000 cars per year. When the Saturn L was killed, it seemed odd that GM would assign the Kappa (Solstice, Sky, & the Opel GT) to that factory, especially since combined, it only is projected to make 35-40K vehicles per year. The F-body's Ste. Therese plant operated at 33% capacity and was closed as GM's most underutilized plant (Wilmington with Kappa uses about 15% capacity).
Wilmington also has the entire Saturn L machinary still intact (Solstice uses only a small portion of the plant). With an expected 120-150,000 Zeta coupes planned, that will bring the plant up to full capacity. In short, all GM has to do is grant the budget, and the conversion begins.
As for names and models, outside of Camaro I'm not going to (or can't) say. I will point out that Impala has just been restyled, Lecrosse was done last year, and Grand Prix is the old man of the group. I'll also say the W-body is done once these cars run their course. I'll also point out that Oshawa #2 is planned for closure & it makes Grand Prixs and Lecrosses. I'll also point out that Oshawa (like Ste Therese and the Camaro-Firebird) have exclusive mandates to make Impala, Grand Prix, and Monte Carlos as long as GM uses the name and those plants are in existence.
If you want to speculate, it could mean alot of things. Maybe one or all of those names are dead. Maybe those cars will all be made in one plant. Maybe one of those cars will be made elsewhere under a different name. But there is another thing to note here. Like the Chrysler plant that's going to make Caliber, Compass, and Patriot, and the former Ford Taurus plant that's been reconfigured for both FWD & RWD cars, GM has-is investing a large amount of money to turn the Oshawa plant int a flexible assembly plant.
Means anything could come out of there.
(Officially this is all speculation, of course. )
This guy has alot of contacts with GM (can ask the right questions as he says) and other car related places and contributes to the rumors section every now and then to help diffuse the crap. It is a VERY good read and explains alot of things floating around about the different chasis platforms and RWD plans for buick, pontiac. and GM especially. Unfortunately there will be no TA, but a possible Firebird type someday. The grand prix may be gone soon as well.
There's a few pretty intresting rumors floating around on various sites that I wanted to cut through, and maybe clear up without giving away anything that would get me nasty-grams from people I'd consider friends, or give too much away from books that are being worked on.
1st, the Zeta. Last year it came out that Zeta was dead. It wasn't and isn't, and never was. GM is a company that has backup plans to it's backup plan's backup plan. The initial idea was that Zeta would be done by GM-Holden, and GM-North America would simply make the same cars here, with perhaps different styling. Keep in mind that Zeta is more about being a modular assembly method than being a particular architecture.
What Holden came up with was a vehicle that was based on the current VZ (Commodore series) car. Much of the structure was carried over. big difference was the rear Independent Suspension was far more complex, and (like the Sigma) a self contained unit attached to it's own subframe. This was affordable to Holden because it required only modest changes to it's existing methods of assembly, but for GM-NA, it would have been much along the same lines as creating a new car.
Another issue is that the structure required additional added on pieces to pass upcoming US rear crash standards, adding weight. Finally, there was an issue with parts. Holden is mostly self sufficient. Most of the parts, right down to instrament panel assembly is done in house, while GM-NA tends to outsource alot of their items. in the end, the car didn't make sense, and GM looked at other alternatives.
Many years ago, GM began a project in which a "Sigma-lite" chassis was under development. This was put on ice by the "Old' GM management, but seems to have been dusted off and sent to Holden for more work and cost cutting. This structure was ideal because from the start, it was made for US crash standards, and utilized alot of the "blue metal" from existing structures (assume they mean "Sigma").
In the end, what apparently came out was a new "zeta" chassis that was as versatile as the Holden version, a bit cheaper to build (thanks to the addition of struts up front), and in the end all but guaranteed that the new Holden VE Zeta will be a short lived car as GM standardizes it's worldwide "Volume" RWD chassis.
Now, about what's going to come off that chassis.
You have heard all kinds of rumors by now on everything from Grand Nationals to Firebirds.
Buick is NOT going to create any car that goes against it's "theme". That includes Grand Nationals, GNXs, or anything that doesn't fit in with "American Road" cars. By every account, it ain't goinna happen. What IS likely to happen is that Buick will get a convertible in the form of the Velite concept. Last word I recieved is that it won't be based on the Zeta, but on another chassis. Keeping speculation out of the mix, that could mean Kappa, Espilon, or (and this is also unlikely) the Y-body. So it could be FWD or RWD. The car did go through a dramatic change when GM re-evaluated what vehicles should be RWD & which didn't need to be.
Firebird currently ISN'T in the cards. GM is very aware that it essentially spent twice to sell the same car, and they are getting away from that by eliminating overlap. What IS possible or likely is that Pontiac will gain a large coupe. It's also possible this coupe may even be a quad coupe. Although a "Firebird" could possibly be done in the last minute, Trans Am will never return. GM paid a royalty on the name (a story in itself). They've been trying to get out of it since the 3rd gen.
There were a pair and maybe even a trio of coupes that were proposed over a year ago for Chevy, Pontiac, and maybe Buick as well. These were the cars delayed along with the original Zeta sedans. This line was supposed to replace the GTO, Bonneville, Monte Carlo, and Park Avenue. As you may very well know by now, those models are left hanging, since all now have a gap in their replacements.
Finally, what can we expect with the new "Zetas"?
The chassis is primarily Chevrolet's. It a large car chassis, as planned back when the whole Zeta idea was talked about back in 2002. But unlike initial plans, it's going to be a dramatically smaller project than origionally planned.
Expect a full sized Chevrolet sedan based on the chassis. Also expect a Pontiac sedan. Expect a Buick sedan. Expect a coupe for Chevrolet & Holden. Also expect a variation of the coupe for Pontiac.
You probally heard rumors that the GTO and Camaro are the same car. Not so. Both were different projects. Camaro was done by GM-NA. Holden did the Monaro replacement and next GTO.
As for when we can expect the new Camaro, that seems to no longer be a secret. Seems after not even wanting to talk about the possibility of a new Camaro for over 3 years, it's now the only thing GM seems to want to talk about. Bob Lutz is almost bursting at the seams trying not to say too much. Ed Welburn himself publically said Camaro could be done very quickly if approved. My own sources say Camaro will likely be out quicker than anyone expects once given the go ahead. Why?
Typically, a concept is given to focus groups and the results are sent back to designers and engineers numerous times for changes. Bob Lutz already said there would be no aditional focus groups for Camaro... "if approved".
Next, as most of you noticed, there was already an extremely detailed CAD of the chassis. The underhood work was done over 2 years ago. This is perhaps the most complete "Concept Car" in automotive history.
Finally, under normal conditions, a new car needs to wait for an existing vehicle to run it's course before the plant is converted. GM has excess capacity, so it's not going to put a car in a plant that's too big for it (as was done with the 4th gen). Logic would dictate that a coupe would be made on the same assembly line as the sedan it's based on (ie: Monte Carlo & Impala) to protect it against fluxuations in the coupe market. However, when GM announced that it's closing one of it's Oshawa Canada plants, and Bob Lutz announced that Camaro "If approved" (again, that disclaimer) would not be made in Canada. That left only one plant.
Wilmington Delaware used to make the Saturn L. It's capable of making over 200,000 cars per year. When the Saturn L was killed, it seemed odd that GM would assign the Kappa (Solstice, Sky, & the Opel GT) to that factory, especially since combined, it only is projected to make 35-40K vehicles per year. The F-body's Ste. Therese plant operated at 33% capacity and was closed as GM's most underutilized plant (Wilmington with Kappa uses about 15% capacity).
Wilmington also has the entire Saturn L machinary still intact (Solstice uses only a small portion of the plant). With an expected 120-150,000 Zeta coupes planned, that will bring the plant up to full capacity. In short, all GM has to do is grant the budget, and the conversion begins.
As for names and models, outside of Camaro I'm not going to (or can't) say. I will point out that Impala has just been restyled, Lecrosse was done last year, and Grand Prix is the old man of the group. I'll also say the W-body is done once these cars run their course. I'll also point out that Oshawa #2 is planned for closure & it makes Grand Prixs and Lecrosses. I'll also point out that Oshawa (like Ste Therese and the Camaro-Firebird) have exclusive mandates to make Impala, Grand Prix, and Monte Carlos as long as GM uses the name and those plants are in existence.
If you want to speculate, it could mean alot of things. Maybe one or all of those names are dead. Maybe those cars will all be made in one plant. Maybe one of those cars will be made elsewhere under a different name. But there is another thing to note here. Like the Chrysler plant that's going to make Caliber, Compass, and Patriot, and the former Ford Taurus plant that's been reconfigured for both FWD & RWD cars, GM has-is investing a large amount of money to turn the Oshawa plant int a flexible assembly plant.
Means anything could come out of there.
(Officially this is all speculation, of course. )
drvngstorm05
02-11-2006, 05:55 PM
hmm... not sure how to take that info... but the most important part, the camaro is coming out, and it may come sooner than expected :D
Savage Messiah
02-11-2006, 05:58 PM
GMI as I have said before is a VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY good source.
cooltc2004
02-11-2006, 08:08 PM
awesome, thanks for posting. Im beyond happy that the camaro was desined by gmna, and I love every bit of infomation in that article.
Dyno247365
02-11-2006, 08:51 PM
So you're saying the Camaro will be built in the same plant as the Solstice? That's really good because not everyone can afford a corvette or wants to buy a cobalt, I say GM needs this to survive.
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