technology is fantastic

Hey all, just pointing out something i ran across durring engine research. Apparently Gasoline Direct Injection is pretty common in europe, and has many many benifits, and GM is finally bringing it over to our shores. Pontiac is releaseing a Solstice GXP (or somethin like that) with a 2.0L, turbocharged, GDI engine that makes 260hp and 260ftlbs of torque. thats 130hp per liter.

Im wondering, could the 2009 camaro wind up getting a GDI setup for similar power and fuel mileage benifits?? could we see the rise of a 12 second Camaro that gets 30-40 mpg from the factory ;) the imagination races.

-e

can you elaborate more on this type of fueling system?

ya, how is it diffrent from fuel injection that we have now?

DONT JUST LEAVE US WITHOUT TELLING US HOW IT WORKS! :mad:

Google is your friend guys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_Direct_Injection

ok, i read it and i am thinking ahead, just waite untill you have one and the engine management system goes out, that will be expensive to get fixed. Just think ahead here. That is a good idea, i think adventuly, all car makers will switch to that.

im sure people back in the carb days probably thought the same thing about electronic fuel injection

When I heard about that this system a while back, that was the first thing I thought..."that will be expensive to get fixed"!!! I have a friend with a early to mid 90's Cutless Supreme and some components in the fuel injection system went bad and would have cost her around $3k to get it fixed, she couldnt afford it and bought a new Nissan instead...
Can you imagine the cost of repares to an injection system where if one of the injectors got clogged, you had to have the whole engine taken apart to fix the problem?!? Damn!

I think some synthetic fuels should be in the works right now to hopefully take up the slack of our oil shortage that will soon be becoming extinct

what is synthetic fules? sorry, i have not heard of it

looks like a cool thing.

kinda like synthetic oil, but fuel instead.

ok, i read it and i am thinking ahead, just waite untill you have one and the engine management system goes out, that will be expensive to get fixed. Just think ahead here. That is a good idea, i think adventuly, all car makers will switch to that.

thinking about how much fatter your wallet is going to be when you have to get it fixed.

Can you imagine the cost of repares to an injection system where if one of the injectors got clogged, you had to have the whole engine taken apart to fix the problem?!? Damn!

It would be just as simple as changing a spark plug. If your spark plug goes bad, what do you do? You get a socket and a ratchet and take the sucker out and replace it. It would be the same deal with the injector. There's no complication to it at all. Just instead of having a fuel rail with the injectors all on top, you could have seperate injectors for each cylinder, that way the fuel doesn't have to mix with the air first, it just takes a short cut and goes directly to the cylinder.

ya but the computer that tells it what mode, if it goes bad, it will be expensive that is what i am saying.

All the same argument were made about FI. So I am sure it would work out as well as fuel injection does.

We can only hope :grinyes: But do you remember all of the problems there used to be with fuel injection systems? They rushed into production before they got all the kinks out...just like anything else, you have to be weary about buying it during its first year or two of production.

All the same argument were made about FI. So I am sure it would work out as well as fuel injection does.

:werd: Don't knock it 'til you try it.

:werd: Don't knock it 'til you try it.

Yes.. my philosphy in food right there. :grinyes:

We can only hope :grinyes: But do you remember all of the problems there used to be with fuel injection systems? They rushed into production before they got all the kinks out...just like anything else, you have to be weary about buying it during its first year or two of production.
The first production of anything is going to have its problems. Multi port Fuel injection from the get go has been awesome. I owned a 85 TPI Vette. That got decent gas mileage and was very reliable. On the other hand the crossfire system used prior to that had a bad rep. I am sure it will cometo be a well working production system. I am sure the first cars in general production were not the same ranking machines that were available just a few years later.

My philosophy in food as well :grinyes:
But remember the 84 Corvette? The 84 was the first of its body style.
Its claim to fame was supposed to be the CROSS FIRE FUEL INJECTION system it used... The 84 Vette is considered to be the worst Vette ever!!! And has anyone heard much about that revolutionary fuel injection system since then? Wasnt used very long, was it? :shakehead
"Don't knock it 'til you try it." Sometimes you try it and it costs you BIG $$$:swear: This is comming from a more than slightly pissed owner of an 84 Vette purchased brand new in late 83...never bothered selling it because its worth more as a conversation peace then its resale value.
New ideas are rushed into production after minimal testing of performance and no regard for possible weak points, prone to failure...Im shure many of you fourth gen owners understand what Im talking about.
Im just saying that we need to be careful about what we try...heck, some car companies went under before they really had a chance to fly because they tried the new ideas(like fuel inj. and a computer controlled trans) before adequate testing, or consideration of possible problems...A good example is the DeLorean DMC-12. Great car but many problems.
Does anyone understand what Im trying to say?

Wow I guess it took me so long to write this that you brought up my example before I did...lol

Btw what was the problem with the cross fire? I dont know much about it and no im not googling it.. the only thing I know about the cross fire is that it produced low numbers..

You have some truths mixed with some error's in info. First of all the 86 Chevy corvette came with a 350 Tuned port injection engine and was in production for 2 years in that body style. Your thinking of the 84 Chevy corvette but that engine was not new to the corvette or chevy infact the 82 Corvette also used the Crossfire and while the crossfire was not a reliablilty problem it was seriously limited performance wise and fuel economy was not all that great. Also the 84 Vette was far far far from rushed into production infact chevy took a year off from making them to get it ready for production and actually saved it for 84 cause it passed all the new federal standards for that year.

I think "Don't knock it till you rock it" has a better ring to it. Anyone know what cars use this in Europe and are they a step above what came before in performance?

The thing to remember here is that this is basically a diesel engine setup, almost all, if not all diesel engines use a direct injection setup. so the technology is pretty old hat and nothing radical and new that needs a teething period. In fact the very first fuel injected car was GDI, the mercedes 300SL gullwing.

the important thing is that higher compression engines get better power and fuel economy. the limiting factor is the detonation tendancy of gasoline, if you can compress the air first and inject the fuel at TDC, you can run higher compressions and get that better efficiency.

personally im excited at the prospects of this fuel delivery setup, and dont think well see any "crossfire" style teething problems.

Oh and formula correct me if im goin the wrong way with this, but i believe the synthetic fuels you were talking about were those like E85, which is 85 percent ethanol, and 15 percent gasoline. In fact im researching methanol fueled vehicles right now which is how i stumbled onto the GDI setups. The only drawback to the alcohol based fuels is the decrease in gas mileage because gallon for gallon alcohol has half the ammount of energy as gasoline. but they run cleaner and make great power, anyone who wonders, the cars that run the Indy 500, run on methanol.

anyone with more interest should look into the chevy website on "going yellow" which is their flex fuel campaign. GM is funding E85 fueling stations across the country, and is offering several vehicles in the lineup that will run on both gasoline and E85.

I realized my error in dates and fixed them right after I posted it...and I didnt say it was a new engine or that it was the first year for the cross fire system, I just said that system was used in it and I know it wasnt rushed into production in the literal sence, I know it was a long time comming...but it was non the less a problem car because they were too far sighted to see the problems with their product before they distributed it.
Is the Vette fast? Hell ya! Is it comfortable to drive faster that 75 or 80 mph? NO! Major suspension issues. Take my word for it, Ive driven it alot.

Actually we use ethanol in our fuel right now and the oil company's like Exxon/Mobil start adding larger amounts of ethanol to our fuel during the winter months cause the colder air compensates for the chance of detonation. Infact Coors opened up a new plant in Texas specifically designed to produce ethanol for mixing with fuel.

we do use ethanol now in our gas, but the proportions are reversed, its like 85 percent gasoline, and 15 percent ethanol, or less.

I realized my error in dates and fixed them right after I posted it...and I didnt say it was a new engine or that it was the first year for the cross fire system, I just said that system was used in it and I know it wasnt rushed into production in the literal sence, I know it was a long time comming...but it was non the less a problem car because they were too far sighted to see the problems with their product before they distributed it.
Is the Vette fast? Hell ya! Is it comfortable to drive faster that 75 or 80 mph? NO! Major suspension issues. Take my word for it, Ive driven it alot.
Take my word for it. I've owned three c4 vette's the suspension was state of the art. The 84 Z51 Vette produced skid pad numbers that even the brand new vette would be hard up to take. Infact one of the techinical chasis/suspension designers of the c5 was asked what his favorite year vette was and he said the 84 cause he could deal with a harsh ride for all out handling. Infact the 85 and 86 Vettes saw softer suspension cause chevy over did chasis rigidity with the 84 vette. Do a little research. Your mixing alot of facts up.

they were starting an ethenol plant here... actually im pretty sure its up and running because I remember hearing something about it starting on fire...

we do use ethanol now in our gas, but the proportions are reversed, its like 85 percent gasoline, and 15 percent ethanol, or less.
What I am talking about and what George Bush just said he has signed on for funds for is a complete synthetic fuel. One where we don't have to worry about the eventual complete lack of fuel that we are getting closer to than we think. With every fill up I know we are coming to the day when the pumps everywhere eventually run dry for good.

The pumps running dry is a scary thought..

I'm going to build a car that runs on salt water....

hydrogen based technology...

Isnt a car running on water already possible? Im sure it is..

yes it is, but its a very unstable thing.... havent you ever heard of a hydrogen bomb? thats pretty much what every car would be.....

yes it is, but its a very unstable thing.... havent you ever heard of a hydrogen bomb? thats pretty much what every car would be.....

Well we basicly have nothing but explosions in our engines.. so how different could it be? :lol:

Take my word for it. I've owned three c4 vette's the suspension was state of the art. The 84 Z51 Vette produced skid pad numbers that even the brand new vette would be hard up to take. Infact one of the techinical chasis/suspension designers of the c5 was asked what his favorite year vette was and he said the 84 cause he could deal with a harsh ride for all out handling. Infact the 85 and 86 Vettes saw softer suspension cause chevy over did chasis rigidity with the 84 vette. Do a little research. Your mixing alot of facts up.
Dude! Thats what I just said, how can you repead something I just said and then say that I have my fact mixed up? Let me try(yet again) to say it more simply...84-ride-harsh...as in feel every little pebble/ripple/and painted line on the road. You feel it all! So what if some designer prefers the 84 because he doesnt mind not being able to feel his toes, fingers, arms, legs, etc just because he likes the handling to be a little harder!!! Ask yourself "Did all the doctors and lawyers who bought this expensive performance car want to be able to drive it to work, and show it of while still being comfortable or did they want to drive an expensive fibre-glass go-cart?"
GM asked themselves that same question and made the necessary changes to the 85! I did all that research years ago. Mabe you need to think about what you are saying...they had to change their origional designs to please their potential buyers...These were the same target buyers they designed the car for in the first place and the fact that they changed the car just goes to show you that they made a mistake that they had to correct.
And BTW, the suspension wasnt the only problem with the car, there were also recalls, and various other issues like a trans that is prone to failure.

Well we basicly have nothing but explosions in our engines.. so how different could it be? :lol:
umm.... if someone rearends you and you blow up a whole city block.... i think people might die....

umm.... if someone rearends you and you blow up a whole city block.... i think people might die....

You're right.. but what you going to do? Either fix your car or go down with your baby.

Dude! Thats what I just said, how can you repead something I just said and then say that I have my fact mixed up? Let me try(yet again) to say it more simply...84-ride-harsh...as in feel every little pebble/ripple/and painted line on the road. You feel it all! So what if some designer prefers the 84 because he doesnt mind not being able to feel his toes, fingers, arms, legs, etc just because he likes the handling to be a little harder!!! Ask yourself "Did all the doctors and lawyers who bought this expensive performance car want to be able to drive it to work, and show it of while still being comfortable or did they want to drive an expensive fibre-glass go-cart?"
GM asked themselves that same question and made the necessary changes to the 85! I did all that research years ago. Mabe you need to think about what you are saying...they had to change their origional designs to please their potential buyers...These were the same target buyers they designed the car for in the first place and the fact that they changed the car just goes to show you that they made a mistake that they had to correct.
And BTW, the suspension wasnt the only problem with the car, there were also recalls, and various other issues like a trans that is prone to failure.You said they had suspension problems and the suspension was state of the art infact many many many many many people have gone threw major trouble to adapt the C4 suspension to there vehicles. Also there was no tranny change made to the 85 Vette. Every make has had recalls at one time or another. a test vehicle and production vehicle are very different creatures and you run into problems you don't normally see with vehicles no matter how many test they were run threw. Well if you do have your facts straight than your very confusing cause I am getting a completely different meaning to everything your posting and as a past and hopefully future C4 owner. I think your critizing a huge GM stepping stone in the name of modern performance,

It is not my intention to critize my Vettes suspension as a stepping stone. To reach a destination, you must first walk the path. My Vette's suspension was but a step in GMs journey to 'suspensionual' enlightment. But Im just saying 'different strokes for different folks', some people prefer the harsher suspension of the 84, but GM realized that for the majority of people that would buy this car, the suspension was just a little too harsh. Whether a suspension is to hard or too soft is purely a matter of opinion. And the people who were buying the car new had the opinion that the suspension of the 84 was too hard, resulting in GMs changing the suspension to please their customers. My personal opinion is that the ride/suspension is too harsh, and yet the vibrations give the driver and passenger an incredible massage.:)

I think I figured out why you are finding it difficult to understand what Im saying...
In my last post I mentioned that the trans is prone to failure(ours has been rebuilt 3 times) and you assumed that I was trying to say that they changed the tranny used between 84 and 85. I new they didnt change the trans, I didnt say they changed the trans, but you assumed that because I said the tranny in the car was prone to failure while talking about an 84 ment that I was implying that thay changed the tranny used in the next year...I never ever imply anything, its to vague and can cause miscomunication, like this.
If I dont imply, then people dont have to assume...which is good because when you assume, you make an ass out of you and an ass out of me.

Don't worry I am pretty sure everyone knows who's the ass :grinyes:

Edit- Actually I don't want to hyjack this thread anymore than we already have but I never got a straight answer as to what tranny your talking about the auto or manual and we were talking about 84 and you mentioned changed and recalls for that specific year cause that was the year you were specifically talking about, so it was not me assuming anything. It was the fact you changed the subject without notifying me.

Wth.. the last paragraph totally lost me.. but for some odd reason I think John's ass remark somehow was relating to me, damn that small balled bastard. :lol2:

Don't worry I am pretty sure everyone knows who the ass :grinyes:
"Who the ass"?..I guess you were right, apparently you was not hooked on phonics :icesangel

Wth.. the last paragraph totally lost me.. but for some odd reason I think John's ass remark somehow was relating to me, damn that small balled bastard. :lol2:
Im still new...Inside joke?

My balls may be small but but but I guess thats all :disappoin

Dont worry, John, you're still.. http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/jgillham/FoamFinger.gif

"Who the ass"?..I guess you were right, apparently you was not hooked on phonics :icesangel
I gotta say even though by comparison everyone has a huge set when compared to me. I am sure you will be around for a while cause its usually the ones that bust my tiny testicles that stick around and you my hope to be friend have ticked me off pretty bad with a few of your critisms today. Kudo''s on being able to tick off the mod pretty badly and making this far :thumbsup:

I think the worst I did while I was still banable was say that 89 piss soaked his sheets every night.

Well John, other than Vettes and Camaros, what you driven?
BTW my name is Jon too.

Actually no, I did flame a member for a day cause he pissed me off and then 89 sent me a warning PM.

I've driven tons of cars. Vipers . Every gen but a first gen Vette. Every gen F-body. Every Gen mustang. GtO's . Lemans. I've owned quite a few cars as well.

Im big on cars, obviously... I tend to lean towards the older ones(to a point) but I think that is the result of growing up in a car family...one of my grandfathers properties here in SoCal has an airplain hanger filled wall to wall with old cars, my grandfathers brother was a head tech with GM until 88 and now owns an auto salvage yard(where my car was built from three camaros and he just had to use the V6 engine over the Z28s :( ) and so on and so forth.

My family's favorate car is the 1923 Studebaker, we have 3, and my uncle has a 1914(same year as the first licence plate). We have hosted one Studebaker show and hope to host another soon.
My uncle also hase a T-bucket Ford(his highschool hotrod) that has the engine from one of my grandfather's 57 Chevys in it, but he is thinking about finally giving my grandfather back his engine and droping an LT1 into it. What do you think about that idea?

I've driven tons of cars. Vipers . Every gen but a first gen Vette. Every gen F-body. Every Gen mustang. GtO's . Lemans. I've owned quite a few cars as well.
Not surprised you havnt driven a first gen Vette, its hard enough to find one that runs, let alone someone that will let you take it for a spin :evillol:

Well the great thing about old Chevy's is that a LT1 cause of the chevy bolt pattern can be dropped into any of the old school performers and there are plenty of classic cars out there with a LT1 under the hood and as long as you keep the original engine around. It won't hurt the value. I say go for it, LT1 engine's are pretty cheap right now and they deliver a pretty decent bang for the buck.

But since the engine is computer controled, wont he need to put the computer in his T-bucket with the engine, or can you just drop a 4 barrel carb on it and change the distributer?

your telling me the t-bucket computer wont work?
while my computer works for a sec......i wanted to say this earlier but couldnt....we have a ethanol plant around here...and several stations that sell e-85..they promised prices to be as much as 50 cents lower than regular...its usually within a 2-10 cents of regular plus..i hear people that get 5mpg or more loss from using it....its cheaper to use regular for now

well if you threw a carb on it and changed the distributor you would essentially make it a regular small block chevy... (save the reverse cooling) what i'm saying is (in my opinion) you'll be throwing away the advantage of the lt1. well tuned, fuel-injected cars make more power than pretty much all carbed equivelants (spelling?). and yes you would have to have a wiring harness and a pcm if you were to put an lt1 in a hot-rod... now it's not hard at all to use a stand-alone harness that doesn't incorporate the chasis at all, it is simply the harness attached to the sensors attached to the pcm... very simple stuff

your telling me the t-bucket computer wont work?

t-buckets had computers? :screwy: lol