OK, so how to respond?

Freakmech's rant does seem to be giving some much needed opportunity for some venting. It's also bringing up some interesting points. It's nice to see mods leaving the thread to run it's course- I think the discussion has some value. It's clearly going to run through several pages.

One point that's been brought up is responding to builds of newer/younger builders. What do you say when someone posts pics of a build in which their skills clearly have a lot of room for developing? I skip a lot of in progress threads, and I usually follow only the handfull that interest me- but part of this is because I don't want to figure out what to say. OK, I'm not going to tell someone their build is crap- not my style. I'm also not going to say "awesome duude, that's SOOO fly!", unless I really mean it (partially because I'm AIMspeach impaired). But if I offer some tidbit of advice, recognizing it may or may not be useful, is that welcome? Or does it come accross a sniping/criticizing? Keep it to myself and not hurt any feelings? Or arrogantly offer to take another newbie under my mighty, experienced wing (well rotor blade, but same difference)?

Generally, I'm happy to leave younger builders to themselves. They seem to have a relatively short half life here, so it's only the really dedicated ones that stick around. But I'm not really sure what they're hoping for in responses when they post an unpainted build, or a body mod on a diecast. I really don't want to turn anyone away- young builders are the future of the hobby, and anyone who's following Tamiya's release schedule can recognise this hobby needs all the future we can give it. Anyone who can be enlightened to the one true glorious path of plastic kit building, and turned away from the abominations that are diecasts, is a soul worth saving.

I'm not trying to decide a forum policy, or even really an individual policy- just to hear people's thoughts. What would you want to hear if you were 14 and on your second build? What would be useful, and encourage you to build and post more? What would be hurtful, and cause you to write off this forum of old assholes, and maybe this hobby too? Thoughts of younger builders are welcome also.

So- what do you think??

Keep firing, assholes!

I think friendly advice and constructive comment are always welcomed on a kit. I try to always find something I like on a kit, but sometime I see nothing. So I simply don't reply (don't worry, it's not because I don't reply your thread that I don't like your work.. time is a factor too :D)

On the other hand, people that Say "Awesome, this thing is sick" on a piece of shit should be more construction. Good feedback can be as bad as bad one. If people would try to be constructive, give suggestion, tips to improve, then I think this place would be hobby heaven... But I don't think it will ever happen.

I used to make it a point of offering crits to people, especially modelers who were obviously rookies. However, so often the reply has been that they don't care or that I'm a total jerk for calling it out, I've decided to instead keep mum unless someone specifically asks for constructive criticism. I always ask for criticism, and though I may not always heed them, I listen and like to hear them. Sometimes I wish this place was more like a writing worskshop, where it was just assumed that people would be looking over your work with a critical eye, and voicing any concerns, tips, or opinions would be more accepted, nay, encouraged. Instead, if I'm not posting in a thread for someone I know, or don't have anything glowingly positive to say, I probably won't say anything at all.

But alas: it doesn't seem to work the way it could.

for me, i believe in receiving honest comments. if my build suck, trash it. but do give me suggestions on how it can be improved. there's no point in giving each other lip service. at the end of the day, when we look at our models, we know that it ain't as good as what everybody says when they try to be nice. just my point of view. :iceslolan

Criticism is important - after all, that's why you post your work, no? At least that's why I post, to improve my models. (It's been a long time since I posted a finished car though, lack of time... ).

Of course, positive comments are always nice, it's great to hear someone likes your model. But criticism isn't a bad thing really, it has to be put nicely though. And with some argumentation, because saying "that sucks" isn't going to get the builder anywhere.

k..

As I posted in the Chad's thread, constructive criticism can often times be the best help for modeling. But often times I dont know how to point it out, just as you said. Many people may think their build is better than it really is. Not to say that in a demeaning way. But When its not that great, and you want to help them out, they often reject any criticism and will get pissed off at the person.

When I give constructive criticism I have the best intentions in mind, and I want anything but the person to hate me for trying to help them out. Many of them take it the wrong way. So what do we say? if anything at all?

Seems like AF is having his periods again, and I for one, like all this discussion about it. Shows a forum which is pretty active with interested people who want to improve what is already pretty nice IMHO.


I read the response by eminent Mr. Willimo and have to say that this monkey is too in the same boat. I believe giving critics is way easier to people who have already achieved a certain level of modeling, they seem to be overall more responsive to it.
If all responses in threads were just like "yeah, man that shit is awesome", I don't believe the forum would have much use overall, other then to brag about what you made, without improving the skills.

And otherwise, is it actually such a bad thing overall more zit-faced youngsters (dunno how to call them otherwise). If we 'd look at the greater picture, this would mean the hobby isn't going that bad at all, more new builders, more models to be built, more interesting takes on subjects and more overall improvement.

I know i m not a supergood modeler, but hey, for me AF is about the best website there is on car modeling!


so don't get me wrong, I very much like it, but analogically, it's like having a Ferrari, sometimes that needs to be cleant from crap too.

back to you, monkeys

I'm eminent!

And your Trabant has cemented you into a "supergood" modeler in my mind, Oli.
And your comments have cemented you as "superchouet," as well.

I'm eminent!

And your Trabant has cemented you into a "supergood" modeler in my mind, Oli.
And your comments have cemented you as "superchouet," as well.


Let's all have some tasty candy and give each other a group hug!

oh and if you all behave there will be a nice bowl of cocoa afterwards!

Oli

Why do you worry about rookies reply? I think no one of us post for a good feedback: as Mike said we're a community and we simply share, our best and also our worse sometime, at our friends benefit.

So, not reasons to me for worry concernig a member's reply, if I explain my position w/o offend anyone and with helpful spirit. There's a kind of good sense which link a lot of people here: if a rookie say you asshole for a criticism a lot of other peoples know how settle with him: you said Mike: we all are friends also if we not meet personally.

So I prefere criticism on my threads, I'll tactful reply :grinyes:

To my mind critisim can only be a good thing, as long as it's well meant and delivered. However, my view seems to be in the minority so I normally just keep quite. I will however comment on builds that I'm particularly impressed by, or which inspire me.

I also find it hard to comment on builds on the net as often you end up critising the photography more than the actual model, and those are two very different skills.

Speaking for myself I love critisim, no really I do, it has pushed me forward on many subjects, website design, model making and what was my job CAD Draughting.

I designed a Smashing Pumpkins Website which got slagged off big time online, so I spend a 7 evenings for 2 weeks working on a new design.
Which was tons better , it even came 2nd place in the 1997 UK Web Awards for Fan Sites (beaten by a Spice Girls webSite).

If peolpe say you work is great when it's not you don't push yourself to try harder, Pleanty of modelers here make me push harder, jsut by veiwing their work.

So I say, lets be honest, they (and me) will be greatfully in the end if we are honest.

Also must admit I dont post in a thread if I have nothing great to say (Chicken I know) but that said I don't read evey thread so Don't be offended if I didn't post in yours.

So in future I'm going to try and be honest with my comments, so watch out.:smokin:

those who have been through a design school system will know that in a crit, you will hardly ever get blind praises.
even now, a client will hardly ever tell you what's good, only what is bad.

a bit of a tangent now...
you got beaten by the spicegirls?

I'm with Hiroboy; The only way to improve yourself is knowing and accepting the truth; why you would want to deny it?
I don't post my wips because I don't have a camera, but when I get one, please don't hide me the truth.
Sorry for my english, it's a little rusty

I also find it hard to comment on builds on the net as often you end up critising the photography more than the actual model, and those are two very different skills.

I understand that but it's hard to coment/advise on work which is unclear, out of focus and blurry. which more and more seem to be.
If you want to join the online modeling world, showing your work a 1 mega pixel camera with macro is not too expensive and will help you get help from others. :2cents:

I post my work here and I really want honest opinion or constructive criticism on how I did. Of course I do mind if someone actually tells me my build is a piece of crap or somewhere along those lines.

Winston

As a rule I only read threads that interest me and again only post a reply if I think that it may be a benefit to any other person who may also read it. One thing that really "grinds my gears" is when post after post after post just says "I agree", "I agree", "I agree", can these people not think of anything original to say or are they just a bunch of sheep? come on folks, you build models for heavens sake and that in itself takes some really vivid imagination to complete some of the inspired creations that can be seen on this forum. I myself welcome criticism good or bad as I think it makes thrive to try harder the next time around, so if you have something to say, please say it with at least a grain of honesty and not just follow the rest of the wooly back grass munchers, remember "1984" was only a book of fictitious garbage, not a rule book we all have to adhere to, OK? My :2cents: ,so spend it wisely. BAAAH BAAAH for now. :rofl:

As has been stated many times above, tell the truth. Being new to modeling myself, and only on my second model, i welcome all the criticism. My first model was crap and i know it, but honest criticism is the most helpful thing. There are tons of experienced modelers on this forum, and all the advice, suggestions, and views they can give on each subject are extremely valuable. I for one apreciate someone saying "It was a good try, but this is what you need to work on." The more of that we have, the better modeler and the better person we all will be. If you can't handle these kind of comments then you better deal with it. As they say: "If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen!"

It's not often I feel moved to express a view but I'm with MPWR & Willimo on this one. I find it really difficult to criticise other peoples work (I'm not outspoken by nature) - if a question is raised from my threads I'm more than happy to share the little skill/knowledge that I have.
When I do post (infrequently) in other peoples threads I tend to post only positive comments in the ones that I'm interested in (which is a subjective thing depending on individual preferences for subject) and which show at least a basic level of skill in paint, construction etc.
Everytime somebody posts their work their ego is there to be shot at -if constructive tips are given & the person takes them in the "right" way then hopefully they will improve their skills -those who don't want to improve or take critcism to heart will probably"wither on the vine" anyway.
I'll get down off my soapbox now.
PS/ Does anybody have any alternatives for AWESOME which must be the most overworked word on AF ?:rofl: .
Cheers
Andy

:rolleyes: But awsome and great are my only words I can find to use most of the time. Hehe..I don't think I have ever said a negative thing about anyones models. I might not like that they are making, but if they are good, they deserve a nice comment. If it it totally crap, I'm not going to tell them that. The young modelers need encouragement.

i maybe a Newbie to this forum but have been building and collecting car models for about 30 years we all start at the begining and we get better and better as we go on,when i started i had to look up mags to get tips and hints,in the old days there were no things like computers or forums were you could ask people for advise or how to.criticism is OK but in a matter of sense not like (thats a load of crap).Positive feedbacks are always good,it keeps you going.
My Grandfather always used to say take time and all will turn out well.
P.S.keep the mistakes,i am still learning.

Here you go Andy. moving, amazing, exalted, dazzling, majestic, striking, stunning, wonderful, impressive, stupefying, stupendous, astonishing, magnificent, spectacular, breathtaking, overwhelming. Are not Dictionaries great.

On subject. Although I have been building kits of all types since about 10, I had a long sabbatical due to family and have just got back into it. I know I could be better and I am improving. With posting, it took a while to work up the courage to put a build "out there' for all to see and critique. Feedback is welcome. Not necessarily all good as we do want to know where we can improve. I know I do. I do have limitations though and am aware of that. Would love to have a airbrush. Hmmm.

I learnt a hard lesson years ago at work when training a newer staff member. He pulled me up one day by telling me that I was always critising him without giving him any encouragement. I took a very long and hard look at myself and he was right. I changed this, and found that if something was not done correctly I could say " ... probably a better way to do that is ....". I found that not only did they learn quicker, most retained the lesson. With modelling we could say ".... that looks good, how about trying this... as it will give you an even better finish". Just a thought.

Remember that stifling creativity is the worst thing we can do.

Hey everyone. Well, when I read Freakmech's post I thought finally, someone with the same frustrations as me. But as I pondered on this I realized that my frustrations were pretty minor when I consider just what a good forum this really is. And now, I have re-thought the way I compliment or comment on who-ever is starting a thread. Perhaps it may seem I am a bit too generous on the compliments, but I really have to work hard and struggle to get anything to look nice or decent. I am on 3 other forums, a sci fi one, a non-modelling automotive one, and an airbrushing forum. The sci fi one is so specific and is such a nit pickers heaven that if you havent seen Star Wars a 1000 times and dated the cameraman's cousin, its impossible to interact without getting a hail storm of flame attacks. In the automotive forum, unless you are a 20 year mechanic or bodyman, you can't interact without getting flamed for being stupid or just plain lazy for not finding the answer to a question on the net in the first place (well, what is the point of joining in the first place then?) And heaven forbid you post a question about a certain brand of vehicle without being called stupid or getting the "serves you right" for owning that brand and not another brand. In the airbrush forum, it is the most passive, half-alive, self-worshipping bunch that can barely string a 3 word response that usually consists of "that is nice". Kinda lame for a paintjob that took over 100 hours to do. And if you compliment or ask someone a technical question, dont hold your breath for a response.
What im trying to say is that of all the forums i have ever been on, this modeller's group is the most passionate, energetic, nice bunch I have had the pleasure to deal with. We all certainly love our models and hobby in general and it shows, which I haven't found elsewear. I find a good honest reply, even if it's a bit critical is still a help and asset for anyone and some feedback is better then nothing at all. I dont really like to give a compliment just for the sake of it unless I truly feel I need to.
I am stuck with dial up for the timebeing,:banghead: and theres nothing better then to slowly wait for the page to load only to see 7 pics of an unpainted body in 7 glorious action angles. When that person posts a new thread, I dont bother viewing anymore. Simple as that. When i see a beautiful masterfull build and I ask this person a specific question concerning the car and get no response at all, (even from different thread's from the same person), I dont open future threads from this person and if I miss something, I couldnt be bothered. I guess my skills just dont measure up and not worth the effort of a reply.
So, all in all, I'm quite happy here and will continue to be when I compare the long list of other forums i have tried and reluctantly gave up on. For the time I have been here, my models and skills have improved dramatically as did my interest in the hobby itself and I'm gratefull for that. I do enjoy giving a response to anyone that took the time and energy to show his/her work, but it has to be deserving and beyond opening the box. Even if its a beginner, usually i can see some quality that is deserving a positive reply and if not, I wont sugar coat it which I would expect in return.
Cheers all, and I apologize for ranting and the length here.
Les

I have to agree with everyone pretty much. I want to know if i'm doing good or bad job. I'm 35 years old and I'm still learning, I've been modeling for close to 20 years now. When I ask a question its because I want to know or to learn, not because its been asked before and I know its going to piss people off. I have been treated rudley in here before and its the main reason I have been reluctant to post other pics of stuff I've done. I want to hear honest feedback, don't sugarcoat it but also dont be an ass about it. I've seen where other regulars have told people to give up the hobby because that person asked a stupid question or something of that nature. Well you know what, that is the most childish unethical thing to do. Most of us that do modeling have noticed the sharp decline in plastic kits and how they are getting harder and harder to go out and buy unless you order it from the net, meaning you can't go to walmart, kmart and buy them really anymore like you could 5-10 years ago. That is because the interest in the hobby is declining. If I'm a newbie and I come in here and ask a question or for advise on something which I have no clue about because I'm a "NEWBIE" and I get a response like or no response at all, that its going to scare me off and I will lose interest in the hobby really fast. We need to losen up and be helpfull, not resentful because this person is a newbie or not the greatest modeler in the world or because of their age. Well thats my thoughts on this, sorry if this is to long and I hope I didn't upset to many people out there

:rolleyes: But awsome and great are my only words I can find to use most of the time. Hehe..I don't think I have ever said a negative thing about anyones models. I might not like that they are making, but if they are good, they deserve a nice comment. If it it totally crap, I'm not going to tell them that. The young modelers need encouragement.


http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=awesome

:)

I posted this a while back.
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php

Whats up guys, I haven't been around these parts in a while. Not only because of some of the things posted by everyone in the first thread, but also because life has caused me to pack up my modeling supplies and store them away.
It seems like these frustrations pop up annually around here. Usually the offenders either get tired of our rantings and leave, or learn from the constant complaints and become outstanding forum regulars.
**Hey, anyone remember Supermod04...I know mike does...:cwm27: ..that was his buddy.

It is amazing how much AF's modeling forum has changed over the years, but one thing that never will is new members pissing the regulars off. There have always been threads that I just pass over as soon as i see the first pic, and i'm sure that there are people that have done that to my few progress posts in the past. There are also members that get all emotional over criticisms and lash back, it's the internet..not everyone is ready for it..lol

I hope that AF dosen't lose any more of it's great members, there are way too many that don't come around anymore. I really miss the old AF from 2004

Of course a simple fix to this problem would be a quick trip around the block with Tonio's ban tank...for those who remember when all that was going on.

**Hey, anyone remember Supermod04...I know mike does...:cwm27: ..that was his buddy.:spit: :rofl:

Here's my secret...when I see a model, finished or in progress, I find several points I like about it and why. I tell it like it is. Search my posts. It's disgusting. I sound like a chick. If there is anything I don't like or I might suggest I will post that as well. Call it 50/50 balance of -/+ points guess.
Sometimes I think I'm the only one that actually spends time to offer criticism!

But here's my problem:
I'm a car nut and my love for things automotive/mechanical sometimes gets in the way and I ask alot technical questions of modelers...and they ignore me. Sometimes I'll even ask twice! That ticks me off.

In the words of GTmike400,
"I have said earlier, this thread should be on how we can improve the problems that 675datsun is facing"

I'd like to start another thread so that we can assess how to make this situation once again positive for me:frown:
Talk amongst youselves.:p

Sharing work, regardless of subject matter or skill level, is the essence of a forum.
Some may post their work to showcase it (in a positive sense) but the true value of posting your work if your are an experienced modeler is that you share your knowledge with less skilled builders and help them improve whereas if you are a beginner you should be hoping to receive some constructive criticism which will you to improve next time. I fully agree with the "less "awsome" and more "have you tried"..." sentiement expressed above - there are far too few members who feel confident(?) enough to do this

Give a hungry man a fish and you feed him for a day. Give him a fishing rod and you feed him for the rest of his life.

i.e. Positive reinforcement good, help for the future even gooder

Give a hungry man a fish and you feed him for a day. Give him a fishing rod and you feed him for the rest of his life.

i.e. Positive reinforcement good, help for the future even gooder


Nicely said.

My deepest concern is the way we comment, but in my eyes, we all share the same problem.

When I post something on the froum, I can hardly wait until I have the first replies or posts regarding the subject. Everybody wants to be noticed, me, you, everybody... So everybody appreciates having a lot of replies in their threads, whether they are negative or positive.

On the other hand, the problem kicks in. When someone really gave my builds a thought and phrased a rather long answer, I do feel that I´m kind of obliged of taking the same time to deal with their work.
That is pretty easy with those eye-teasing builds we have on the board. It is quite hard with the "newbie"-work.
So what happens is that you start commenting on builds just because you feel the other guy deserves the same treatment that he gave you.

A while ago I stopped doing that, because I caught myself in just replying: "awesome, super, etc.". So when I check a thread and recognize about 10 people already having said nice things about a model, I end up not answering, because an eleventh "You are the bomb, man!" seems unnecessary and childish.

So we all should ask ourselves, if every comment, we make, is necessary or could we live another day with not having phrased every thought in our head?

Another thing: I´m starting to get tired of all the "gangsta-I refuse to speak proper english, even though I´m a native english-speaker"-writing style. In my eyes somebody saying, that he likes my build is more reliable with his opinion than somebody phrasing that the build is a "killa" or that the member ist "da bomb". It´s a forum, not "da hood" and - let´s be honest - that way of talking sounds cool, but in written form it´s kind of depressing.

Oh, one more thing, does everybody know about the "edit"-button? There´s always a chance to correct your grammatical misbehaviour!!!

I have to agree. We all post and 'show off' for advice, comments and criticisms. I'm the first to point out all my mistakes ( I make a lot of them) but try learn from them. I appreciate it when anyone makes a contructive critique. Hell even a so called rookie can teach someone something. Lets just not take things so seriously. If you do then don't post.....