2ND generation rx-7 --- v-8 conversion kit.
kcxox
06-17-2002, 08:09 AM
I'm thinking of purchasing a parts rx-7 with a blown motor and buying a conversion kit with a v-6 or v-8 to replace it. Is this a realistic goal, and is so, where can i purchase a kit. i know they exist, i have friends who have them. thx, KC
Bryan8412
06-21-2002, 12:19 AM
im sure it would work by why retrogress to an inferior engine design??
A piston engine in V-formation is unbalanced, the pistons violently change direction, is unable to acheive high revs due to the mass changing direction so quickly, and it has many moving parts.
A rotary has 3 cycles per revolution due to its design, it has the best hp/liter ratio of almost any engine, its perfect for a twin turbo setup, it has THREE moving parts, it stays in one direction, and it revs high due to this.
if you're worried about having an engine problem solved: www.revolutionrotary.com
only a couple thousand. good luck
A piston engine in V-formation is unbalanced, the pistons violently change direction, is unable to acheive high revs due to the mass changing direction so quickly, and it has many moving parts.
A rotary has 3 cycles per revolution due to its design, it has the best hp/liter ratio of almost any engine, its perfect for a twin turbo setup, it has THREE moving parts, it stays in one direction, and it revs high due to this.
if you're worried about having an engine problem solved: www.revolutionrotary.com
only a couple thousand. good luck
Cbass
06-24-2002, 03:01 AM
Oh yeah, tons of people are doing this. Turns out when a rotary goes, people aren't willing to sacrifice the multiple limbs necessary to get it rebuilt/replaced.
I am doing this in an 81, with a 400CI Ford... I think the 5.0/early eighties first gens are the easiest, you just turn the engine/suspension crossmember around 180 degrees, and bolt up the stock Ford mounts. The tranny requires a custom fabbed crossmember, but grannys sells em for about $300.
Budget $2000 for parts if you do it yourself, including engine, new 4 core aluminum rad, and new crossmember.
These guys will show you everything you need to know...
http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/
I am doing this in an 81, with a 400CI Ford... I think the 5.0/early eighties first gens are the easiest, you just turn the engine/suspension crossmember around 180 degrees, and bolt up the stock Ford mounts. The tranny requires a custom fabbed crossmember, but grannys sells em for about $300.
Budget $2000 for parts if you do it yourself, including engine, new 4 core aluminum rad, and new crossmember.
These guys will show you everything you need to know...
http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/
Steel
06-29-2002, 11:22 PM
or you can put in 1700 bux for a remanufactured rotary. Why bother getting an RX-7 if you aren't going to have the rotary in it? If you want a V8, theres plenty of Camaro's Firebirds and Mustangs out there.
Bryan8412
06-30-2002, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by Steel
or you can put in 1700 bux for a remanufactured rotary. Why bother getting an RX-7 if you aren't going to have the rotary in it? If you want a V8, theres plenty of Camaro's Firebirds and Mustangs out there.
exactly my point: http://www.revolutionrotary.com
they sell reman 13b AND the king of rotaries the 3-rotor twin turbo 20b engine.
plus you can get the option of 3mm apex seals and other upgrades like street porting and what not. it's inexpensive and its like a new rx7 when you drop it in.
or you can put in 1700 bux for a remanufactured rotary. Why bother getting an RX-7 if you aren't going to have the rotary in it? If you want a V8, theres plenty of Camaro's Firebirds and Mustangs out there.
exactly my point: http://www.revolutionrotary.com
they sell reman 13b AND the king of rotaries the 3-rotor twin turbo 20b engine.
plus you can get the option of 3mm apex seals and other upgrades like street porting and what not. it's inexpensive and its like a new rx7 when you drop it in.
Moppie
06-30-2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Steel
Why bother getting an RX-7 if you aren't going to have the rotary in it?
Becasue the RX7 is a very light weight car, with competent for its time handleing (and when well sorted awsome handleing), and any small black V8 fits rather nicely in the frount.
You get the best of both worlds. Light weight Japanese car with lots of American V8 grunt.
Becuase lets be honest here, as cool an engine as the Rotory is, it will never make as much hp as a V8.
Why bother getting an RX-7 if you aren't going to have the rotary in it?
Becasue the RX7 is a very light weight car, with competent for its time handleing (and when well sorted awsome handleing), and any small black V8 fits rather nicely in the frount.
You get the best of both worlds. Light weight Japanese car with lots of American V8 grunt.
Becuase lets be honest here, as cool an engine as the Rotory is, it will never make as much hp as a V8.
Bryan8412
07-03-2002, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Moppie
Becuase lets be honest here, as cool an engine as the Rotory is, it will never make as much hp as a V8.
not true. The reason most people baby rotaries is because mazda holds the patents to alot of the technology behind them, and they have ALWAYS skimped on power (miata, mp3, etc). They always go for low displacement engines. If another company would be able to make use of the rotary technology, they'd use more rotors etc. The 20b uses 3 rotors and puts out 280hp stock if you port the I/E, get a new pully system, new computer, and remove the old TT and put a quick spooling single turbo, it can touch 400+ easily. An experimental 6-rotor engine from mazda put out 900hp. It's just like an I-4 compared to a V-12 in the piston world, theres no replacement for displacement.
As mazda loses it's patents (i think theres a time limit isn't there?), maybe someone would make good use of the design. In fact i think i recall GM having solved some of the rotaries difficulties but couldn't apply it and never released the technology as they don't hold the patents.
Becuase lets be honest here, as cool an engine as the Rotory is, it will never make as much hp as a V8.
not true. The reason most people baby rotaries is because mazda holds the patents to alot of the technology behind them, and they have ALWAYS skimped on power (miata, mp3, etc). They always go for low displacement engines. If another company would be able to make use of the rotary technology, they'd use more rotors etc. The 20b uses 3 rotors and puts out 280hp stock if you port the I/E, get a new pully system, new computer, and remove the old TT and put a quick spooling single turbo, it can touch 400+ easily. An experimental 6-rotor engine from mazda put out 900hp. It's just like an I-4 compared to a V-12 in the piston world, theres no replacement for displacement.
As mazda loses it's patents (i think theres a time limit isn't there?), maybe someone would make good use of the design. In fact i think i recall GM having solved some of the rotaries difficulties but couldn't apply it and never released the technology as they don't hold the patents.
Cbass
07-22-2002, 05:33 PM
I like rotary engines. If I had a good 13B, or a 20B, I would drop it right in the RX7. I don't though. What I do have is a huge Ford smallblock, and it was free. I also have a Porsche transaxle from a 931, which is going to be my tranny. I can get a first gen second series Rex with a blown motor for around $300 CDN. I can rebuild the motor for $600 CDN with forged pistons, add $150 for a new cam, let's say a $900 rebuild with 400hp. With the Porsche transaxle, the car will weigh 2300-2400lbs, have 400hp, and a 50/50 weight balance.
Now I just need flares for wider tires.
Now I just need flares for wider tires.
RXtony7
08-10-2002, 03:07 PM
Putting that V6 or V8 into a rex is totally nuts, you are ruining the whole concept of the car, with an almost perfect 50:50 weight distribution you are going to throw that all off.
Steel
08-13-2002, 11:27 AM
yeah, that v8 is gonna be a LOT heavier than the 13b, totally screw your weight distrobution. Your rear end will be kicking out on you when you pull into the supermarket! unless you wight it down, bu then you will be the only owner of a 4500 pound rex.
Cbass
09-13-2002, 08:37 AM
Well, thats one of the benefits of using the Porsche transaxle, it combines the differential and transmission, and only weighs 80 lbs.
I'm not replacing a 250lb 13B, I'm replacing a 350lb 12A with a 500lb 400M. The tranny is going to the back, and so is the battery. This will keep an optimum weight balance :)
Look, I don't mean to offend any rotary purists, I love rotaries as much as anyone else. I can't afford one though! Besides, this motor is a test bed for my shop, and it needs a home.
I'm not replacing a 250lb 13B, I'm replacing a 350lb 12A with a 500lb 400M. The tranny is going to the back, and so is the battery. This will keep an optimum weight balance :)
Look, I don't mean to offend any rotary purists, I love rotaries as much as anyone else. I can't afford one though! Besides, this motor is a test bed for my shop, and it needs a home.
jthompson02
10-21-2002, 11:57 AM
You all are idiots. the right V8 will overpower ANY rotory you have. Even a 20b turbo wont give out as much power as a modified v8. And you all must not read around. You can put a v8 in your car and gain MAYBE 150lbs. And that is NOt throwing off the balance. You can put a v8 in a TII and even make the car LIGHTER then it was stock. SO get off the V8's. Plus, i have a V8 in my 7 and all my fiends have a 7. I can either hang or BEAT them on the corners, and on the strait ways i can eat them all alive. one of my friends has a TII with about $15,000 of mods to it. Plus you all say its killing the car. Maybe some of us can afford to keep the rotory running. Stuff for those engines are expesive. You can go down to almost any autzone or pepboys to get what u need, (i recomend using summit for all your parts though). So get off this guys back. V8 will do just fine in a 7. A v8 will outperform any rotory. And like i daid the weight differance isnt that much. 150lbs...thats al. So before you all start talking crap...do the research. and if any of you are EVER in Ky, bring your 7 and ill show you what a v8 can do. BIOTCHES
RXtony7
10-21-2002, 06:41 PM
Well any RX7 with a V8 is no longer a RX7 as far as I am concerned and alot of other 7 lovers feel the same way. 150 pounds huh?!? Yeah maybe after you strip the interior. But hey it's your car.
FC3S
10-24-2002, 12:35 AM
What a joke!!! This is an absolute insult to every 7s out there. There is no place for a "piss-ton" engine or V8s in any 7s for that matter. Anyone who disagree can tell it to Mazda. I think it will surely disappoint Mazda, especially Mr. Rotary, Mr. Yamamoto will came out with rotary to complement the 7s handling and performance. Rotary is the soul of Mazda and 7s. If there is no rotary, then no RX7.
Let's put it this way, if u do not have money to maintain the 7, then don't think of buying 7 at all because if u have good money to spend, then the word piston should not even come into your mind. Also, if u are a true rotary fan, u will not sacrifice rotary for that crap for money's sake.
As for performance wise, v8 can overpower any rotary??? Then, why don't beat try on the RX7.com stock body street legal RX-7??? That's the fastest RX-7 @ 9 sec in 1/4 mile run.
To all rotary fans, cheers....long live rotary and 7s!!!:D
Let's put it this way, if u do not have money to maintain the 7, then don't think of buying 7 at all because if u have good money to spend, then the word piston should not even come into your mind. Also, if u are a true rotary fan, u will not sacrifice rotary for that crap for money's sake.
As for performance wise, v8 can overpower any rotary??? Then, why don't beat try on the RX7.com stock body street legal RX-7??? That's the fastest RX-7 @ 9 sec in 1/4 mile run.
To all rotary fans, cheers....long live rotary and 7s!!!:D
jthompson02
10-24-2002, 09:45 AM
Riiiiight...hmmm the rx-7.com car. Let me think...im sure they dumped allot more money into there car then i will ever be able. But i will race ANY of you othat think this is a bad idea. And i bet i can still kick your ass around corners. I bet i will be able to take a corner faster now. So dont talk carp about peoples car just because they do something different. And i love the rotary engine, but it doesnt do what i want it to do anymore. I wanna be able to kick a vipers/ corvette z06's ass...and i will. Oh, if any of you are in the louisville,ky area. post it up...cuz i need people to check how my tail lights look on the road. BIOTCHES
FC3S
10-28-2002, 04:16 AM
Since V8s can produce more horsepower than rotary, why fear it then? May i ask how quick is your V8 1/4 mile run?
Who says rotary cannot kick vipers and corvette z06s ass? If a rotary engine is well-tuned i seroiusly don't think vipers and z06s are worthy opponents. Their tuning are almost at their peak so means not much room for improvements left. Also, given equal horsepower on both cars, a rotary have high chances of kicking the opposite's ass.
Who says rotary cannot kick vipers and corvette z06s ass? If a rotary engine is well-tuned i seroiusly don't think vipers and z06s are worthy opponents. Their tuning are almost at their peak so means not much room for improvements left. Also, given equal horsepower on both cars, a rotary have high chances of kicking the opposite's ass.
Steel
10-28-2002, 08:53 PM
there's no replacement for displacement - unless its a rotary!
Listen man, a stock V8 wont be making you go much faster than a stock N/A rotary. But you want to make your V8 7 fast right? Well guess what, you're gonna be spending JUST as much money on that as you would if you were to mod a rotary. Plus, you're gonna end up sepnding a LOT to get that bitch monted in there, getting the tranny, making the different tranny fit under the car, getting a new driveshaft and rearend, getting a new computer to control your engine, fucking with the electronics because the tach's work different, and it'll be a general pain in the ass. Sure you can get a nice crate V8 for what was it, $400? but you're looking at 10 grand to make it fit and make it fast. If i had 10k's i'd jsut get a 3 rotor cosmo engine that STARTS with ~300 hp IMO and can EASILY hit ~700. Chew on that for a bit.
Listen man, a stock V8 wont be making you go much faster than a stock N/A rotary. But you want to make your V8 7 fast right? Well guess what, you're gonna be spending JUST as much money on that as you would if you were to mod a rotary. Plus, you're gonna end up sepnding a LOT to get that bitch monted in there, getting the tranny, making the different tranny fit under the car, getting a new driveshaft and rearend, getting a new computer to control your engine, fucking with the electronics because the tach's work different, and it'll be a general pain in the ass. Sure you can get a nice crate V8 for what was it, $400? but you're looking at 10 grand to make it fit and make it fast. If i had 10k's i'd jsut get a 3 rotor cosmo engine that STARTS with ~300 hp IMO and can EASILY hit ~700. Chew on that for a bit.
Cbass
11-04-2002, 03:35 AM
Look, I have a free engine, and a tranny that cost me $100. I have a RX7 which will cost me $50, and has no engine. It has cost me about $500 so far, and I have everything I need to put the engine in the Rex with the exception of a fuel cell. I'm removing the stock fuel tank, to make room for the transaxle.
This engine is getting
cylinder heads ---------- $300
Rebuild------------------- $300
efi ------------------------ $400
crane 268 cam ---------- $120
The engine will make 400hp, and 500lbft of torque! As much as I love the rotary engine, show me a rotary engine that makes 500lbft, and then show me exactly how much it cost to build it. Could I build it in my backyard, like I can with the 400M?
This engine is getting
cylinder heads ---------- $300
Rebuild------------------- $300
efi ------------------------ $400
crane 268 cam ---------- $120
The engine will make 400hp, and 500lbft of torque! As much as I love the rotary engine, show me a rotary engine that makes 500lbft, and then show me exactly how much it cost to build it. Could I build it in my backyard, like I can with the 400M?
Kaneto
11-04-2002, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Cbass
show me a rotary engine that makes 500lbft
Why? You looking to tow something with your RX-7?
Heh, seriously though. It's your car, do what you want. Sounds like you have a good deal on parts there, so just go for it. Sure, you'll get no love from the RX-7 community... but who cares? When it comes to your car, the only opinion that really matters is yours.
show me a rotary engine that makes 500lbft
Why? You looking to tow something with your RX-7?
Heh, seriously though. It's your car, do what you want. Sounds like you have a good deal on parts there, so just go for it. Sure, you'll get no love from the RX-7 community... but who cares? When it comes to your car, the only opinion that really matters is yours.
FC3S
11-05-2002, 10:29 PM
Now look...since the engine you had is free, you can do whatever you want for sure coz' you won't be spending on another engine. Definitely a rotary will cost more than what you are getting.
That engine of yours make 400hp and 500lb/ft torque @ ???? rpm coz' the rotary engines are peaky and torquey by nature.
13B Rebuild kit price:
APEX SEAL ($6.00 each)
CORNER SEAL ($12.00 each)
SIDE SEAL ($12.00 each)
OIL SEAL INNER/OUTER ($4.00 each)
O-RING, OIL SEAL INNER ($4.00 each)
O-RING OIL SEAL OUTER ($4.00 each)
OIL SEAL FRONT COVER ($1.00 each)
OIL SEAL REAR ($1.00 each)
GASKET O-RING SET ($1.00 each)
INNER APEX SPRING ($6.00 each)
OUTER APEX SPRING ($6.00 each)
CORNER SEAL SPRING ($2.00 EACH)
SIDE SEAL SPRINGS ($2.00 each)
OIL SEAL SPRING-FRONT ($2.00 each)
OIL SEAL SPRING-REAR ($2.00 each)
That engine of yours make 400hp and 500lb/ft torque @ ???? rpm coz' the rotary engines are peaky and torquey by nature.
13B Rebuild kit price:
APEX SEAL ($6.00 each)
CORNER SEAL ($12.00 each)
SIDE SEAL ($12.00 each)
OIL SEAL INNER/OUTER ($4.00 each)
O-RING, OIL SEAL INNER ($4.00 each)
O-RING OIL SEAL OUTER ($4.00 each)
OIL SEAL FRONT COVER ($1.00 each)
OIL SEAL REAR ($1.00 each)
GASKET O-RING SET ($1.00 each)
INNER APEX SPRING ($6.00 each)
OUTER APEX SPRING ($6.00 each)
CORNER SEAL SPRING ($2.00 EACH)
SIDE SEAL SPRINGS ($2.00 each)
OIL SEAL SPRING-FRONT ($2.00 each)
OIL SEAL SPRING-REAR ($2.00 each)
LS1 powered
12-07-2002, 07:11 PM
Found this thread, so I had to register and add my 2c's!
Until I can find a rotary that gets 27mpg daily, and has almost 400hp.....
Until I can find a rotary that gets 27mpg daily, and has almost 400hp.....
rogginator
12-07-2002, 08:52 PM
ok, have any of you looked into this?
the granny's website and the folks at torquecentral.com can really helped you with this. you will get a car that is almost just as light, has the same 50/50 weight distribution, will handle just as well (depending on how the weight issue goes), has way more power, and has a significantly power / reliability / MPG issue
some things i have read in this thread:
"A piston engine in V-formation is unbalanced, the pistons violently change direction, is unable to acheive high revs due to the mass changing direction so quickly, and it has many moving parts."
is that why honda motors rev so high? what about motorcycle engines, they have pistons. LS1's and many SBC's rev to 7 or eight every day and have no problem
"v8 is gonna be a LOT heavier than the 13b"
not really. aluminum heads / intake, and no PS / AC, and you have a car that is practily the same and has about 3 times the power
"if u do not have money to maintain the 7, then don't think of buying 7 at all "
what? i don't buy / build a car so i have to screw with it every 100 miles. a reliable 350hp small block is cheap and well documented. let me see that in a 1.3 liter rotary, and not well my friend has or mazda built one of....
"with an almost perfect 50:50 weight distribution you are going to throw that all off."
if you had bothered to go to the granny's site or torquecentral you would see how this can be maintained by moving your battery and a few other minor things
just do a little research instead of being so close minded, and you will see that it is a good swap that greatly improves the performance of the rx7
this will REALLY make some of you cringe - www.hinsonsupercars.com
the granny's website and the folks at torquecentral.com can really helped you with this. you will get a car that is almost just as light, has the same 50/50 weight distribution, will handle just as well (depending on how the weight issue goes), has way more power, and has a significantly power / reliability / MPG issue
some things i have read in this thread:
"A piston engine in V-formation is unbalanced, the pistons violently change direction, is unable to acheive high revs due to the mass changing direction so quickly, and it has many moving parts."
is that why honda motors rev so high? what about motorcycle engines, they have pistons. LS1's and many SBC's rev to 7 or eight every day and have no problem
"v8 is gonna be a LOT heavier than the 13b"
not really. aluminum heads / intake, and no PS / AC, and you have a car that is practily the same and has about 3 times the power
"if u do not have money to maintain the 7, then don't think of buying 7 at all "
what? i don't buy / build a car so i have to screw with it every 100 miles. a reliable 350hp small block is cheap and well documented. let me see that in a 1.3 liter rotary, and not well my friend has or mazda built one of....
"with an almost perfect 50:50 weight distribution you are going to throw that all off."
if you had bothered to go to the granny's site or torquecentral you would see how this can be maintained by moving your battery and a few other minor things
just do a little research instead of being so close minded, and you will see that it is a good swap that greatly improves the performance of the rx7
this will REALLY make some of you cringe - www.hinsonsupercars.com
Cbass
12-07-2002, 09:36 PM
Wow, this thread turned ugly really fast...
If I had a FD, I would keep the 13B rotary...
but I don't, I have the 81, and the previous owner never changed the oil, this thing is hooped. I don't feel like rebuilding a carbureted 12A, because it's not worth my time or money.
It's still all in pieces right now, I'm rebuilding the 400M right now, and the G31 transaxle needs new synchros.
If I had a FD, I would keep the 13B rotary...
but I don't, I have the 81, and the previous owner never changed the oil, this thing is hooped. I don't feel like rebuilding a carbureted 12A, because it's not worth my time or money.
It's still all in pieces right now, I'm rebuilding the 400M right now, and the G31 transaxle needs new synchros.
philly fab
12-08-2002, 07:52 AM
Putting that V6 or V8 into a rex is totally nuts, you are ruining the whole concept of the car, with an almost perfect 50:50 weight distribution you are going to throw that all off.
It is quite apareant that you dont really know what your talking about and you dont have 1st hand knowledge of what you say..Speaking from both sides of teh coin (yes i have had several rotarys including the 3rd ccartech 12a turbo kit many years ago before most here probally had a bike!) The V8 with alloy heads and water pump a relocated battery and removal of the needed 13B wires and coils and so forth will net 52/49 dist ratio as the case with my car..Thats on my scales in my shop..
You will never ever get a 13b to make relighable power no matter what you do..And after you factor in the cost of teh added support equipment to the turbo rotary and teh turbo you could have an all motor V8 with a solid roller cam and alloy heads with change left over..
It is quite apareant that you dont really know what your talking about and you dont have 1st hand knowledge of what you say..Speaking from both sides of teh coin (yes i have had several rotarys including the 3rd ccartech 12a turbo kit many years ago before most here probally had a bike!) The V8 with alloy heads and water pump a relocated battery and removal of the needed 13B wires and coils and so forth will net 52/49 dist ratio as the case with my car..Thats on my scales in my shop..
You will never ever get a 13b to make relighable power no matter what you do..And after you factor in the cost of teh added support equipment to the turbo rotary and teh turbo you could have an all motor V8 with a solid roller cam and alloy heads with change left over..
Devilbat
12-08-2002, 09:55 AM
You freak'n rotary PINHEADS!
What none of you seem to understand is that to have a v-8 RX-7 you most likely FIRST owned an rotary RX-7 which means that in addition to understanding piston engines (which are superior in every objective measure of performance) we understand in detail the workings of rotaries as well.
I have gutted the rotary out of my 3rd gen RX-7 and am installing an alum GM LS1 in it's place. The 13B-REW as compared to the v-8:
* Weighs as much as the vette engine.
* It gets worse gas milage.
* Higher emissions.
* Less torque.
* Less horsepower.
* Smaller powerband.
* It doesn't last as long.
* It is more maint intensive.
* It requires complex turbocharging to produce meaningful power
If you want to keep your wankler for emotional or subjective reasons I understand. But if you want a *RELIABLE* source of large amounts of responsive horsepower the v-8 is the better way to go.
What none of you seem to understand is that to have a v-8 RX-7 you most likely FIRST owned an rotary RX-7 which means that in addition to understanding piston engines (which are superior in every objective measure of performance) we understand in detail the workings of rotaries as well.
I have gutted the rotary out of my 3rd gen RX-7 and am installing an alum GM LS1 in it's place. The 13B-REW as compared to the v-8:
* Weighs as much as the vette engine.
* It gets worse gas milage.
* Higher emissions.
* Less torque.
* Less horsepower.
* Smaller powerband.
* It doesn't last as long.
* It is more maint intensive.
* It requires complex turbocharging to produce meaningful power
If you want to keep your wankler for emotional or subjective reasons I understand. But if you want a *RELIABLE* source of large amounts of responsive horsepower the v-8 is the better way to go.
rxsskid
12-08-2002, 08:02 PM
Steel, you are an idiot, its official. Do the research before you open your mouth, ever again. I hereby revoke your right to speak to any intellegent human being ever again. To fill you in, you can build a 500hp, 600ft. lbs small block v8 for about $1500 with good parts and it will get prolly 18mpg and last forever. Then the ENTIRE kit with the motor AND tranny mounts, driveshaft, speedo and tach recalibration and everything is about $500. I wanna see ANY 13b get 500hp, and ESPECIALLY 600ft. lbs for 2g. I personally got my 87 NA for $100 with a blown motor and I spent about $1000 to build a 486hp, 574ft. lb. v8 plus $400 for the kit and my car runs ~10.40's ALL day on PUMP GAS. Also I put the battery in the back and put a hood scopp on and the car is a total of 22lbs. heavier in the front and will kill any of your cars immediately. SO with that I tell you that yes, rotaries are a great concept but until they became semi-budgetable to build, throw them in the parts heap.
turbo2nr
12-09-2002, 09:51 AM
its a disgrace to the rx-7 all over to put a v-8 into a rx-7!
ddaaammm it, buy a 5.slow mustang den!
rx-7 can easily make 450+hp @ weels and do the 1\4 in low 10s.
my friends have 2 rx-7s that do 10s one is a 93 wit a worked 13b and it does 10.6
and the other is a worked first gen that also has a 13b and does 10.1, both of these cars are driven every day to work and back and driven to the track and bak!
so i think that the rotory engine is a very capabile engine!
ddaaammm it, buy a 5.slow mustang den!
rx-7 can easily make 450+hp @ weels and do the 1\4 in low 10s.
my friends have 2 rx-7s that do 10s one is a 93 wit a worked 13b and it does 10.6
and the other is a worked first gen that also has a 13b and does 10.1, both of these cars are driven every day to work and back and driven to the track and bak!
so i think that the rotory engine is a very capabile engine!
rxsskid
12-09-2002, 10:06 AM
Sr20, you have fallen victim as well, no more talking. No one ever said a rotary couldn't make 400hp or run 10's, ITS THE COST. The money it would take to put a 13b-rew into the 10's is LUDICROUS. It cost me 2000 for a complete fresh motor (specs in post above) and the swap. It costs you more than that for turbo upgrades, then you have to deal with injectors, cooling, all of that crap, ITS NOT WORTH THE HASSLE, especially if you're starting with a blown motor because a stock rebuild for a regular 13b is in excess of a $1000 in most places. But hey, if you have the money to waste on crap and one car, you do that, I would rather build my rx-7 how I did with the v8 for $2000 and smoke you and put the rest towards finishing my 1967 Chevelle (Blown 427) that will also smoke you. Hmmmm, two cars that will look better, run better, and smoke you, for the price of one that will self destruct at any given point. I think not.:flipa:
Devilbat
12-09-2002, 12:05 PM
This brings to mind a line that Dan Aykroyd used to say when he reported the news on SNL during it's original run in the 1970s;
"Jane you misguided ignorant slut."
A 13B can't EASILY make 450hp, rather a it is possible to make 450hp with a 13B in highly modified form, on racing gas, in a highly controlled environment, with expert tuning and no hope for reliability. It's just waiting to blow out and cost you big dough!
Now contrast that with a stock Z06 Corvette engine. 405hp and:
* Runs on pump gas
* Good gas milage
* Passes emissions
* Reliable as a brick factory warrenty on the crate engine
* More responsive (no turbo lag)
* Wider powerband
* Similar installed weight to a turbo 13B.
So again, tell me in objective terms why the rotary is better?
Originally posted by sr20det2nr
its a disgrace to the rx-7 all over to put a v-8 into a rx-7!
ddaaammm it, buy a 5.slow mustang den!
rx-7 can easily make 450+hp @ weels and do the 1\4 in low 10s.
my friends have 2 rx-7s that do 10s one is a 93 wit a worked 13b and it does 10.6
and the other is a worked first gen that also has a 13b and does 10.1, both of these cars are driven every day to work and back and driven to the track and bak!
so i think that the rotory engine is a very capabile engine!
"Jane you misguided ignorant slut."
A 13B can't EASILY make 450hp, rather a it is possible to make 450hp with a 13B in highly modified form, on racing gas, in a highly controlled environment, with expert tuning and no hope for reliability. It's just waiting to blow out and cost you big dough!
Now contrast that with a stock Z06 Corvette engine. 405hp and:
* Runs on pump gas
* Good gas milage
* Passes emissions
* Reliable as a brick factory warrenty on the crate engine
* More responsive (no turbo lag)
* Wider powerband
* Similar installed weight to a turbo 13B.
So again, tell me in objective terms why the rotary is better?
Originally posted by sr20det2nr
its a disgrace to the rx-7 all over to put a v-8 into a rx-7!
ddaaammm it, buy a 5.slow mustang den!
rx-7 can easily make 450+hp @ weels and do the 1\4 in low 10s.
my friends have 2 rx-7s that do 10s one is a 93 wit a worked 13b and it does 10.6
and the other is a worked first gen that also has a 13b and does 10.1, both of these cars are driven every day to work and back and driven to the track and bak!
so i think that the rotory engine is a very capabile engine!
turbo2nr
12-09-2002, 02:06 PM
A 13B can't EASILY make 450hp, rather a it is possible to make 450hp with a 13B in
yea my boys both run about 400hp every day on pump gass and over 450+ hp at races ,
yes i agree that rx-7 take alot of $ to hook up but 2 me it is worth it come on having a 400+ daily driven race car..
its worth it... the fact that u can say i beat ur 5.0l+ wit a 1.3L thats enuff satification 4 me.
bty their rx7s are highly reliable:flipa:
yea my boys both run about 400hp every day on pump gass and over 450+ hp at races ,
yes i agree that rx-7 take alot of $ to hook up but 2 me it is worth it come on having a 400+ daily driven race car..
its worth it... the fact that u can say i beat ur 5.0l+ wit a 1.3L thats enuff satification 4 me.
bty their rx7s are highly reliable:flipa:
Devilbat
12-09-2002, 02:58 PM
Wow you must be very special. Because no one else has ever made that much reliable horsepower on pump gas out of a 13B.
BTW: The effective displacement of the 1.3l 13B is 2.6L. Don't forget that rotaries use all of their displacement with every rev. 4 cycle piston engines use half of their displacement with every rev.
Originally posted by sr20det2nr
yea my boys both run about 400hp every day on pump gass and over 450+ hp at races ,
yes i agree that rx-7 take alot of $ to hook up but 2 me it is worth it come on having a 400+ daily driven race car..
its worth it... the fact that u can say i beat ur 5.0l+ wit a 1.3L thats enuff satification 4 me.
bty their rx7s are highly reliable:flipa:
BTW: The effective displacement of the 1.3l 13B is 2.6L. Don't forget that rotaries use all of their displacement with every rev. 4 cycle piston engines use half of their displacement with every rev.
Originally posted by sr20det2nr
yea my boys both run about 400hp every day on pump gass and over 450+ hp at races ,
yes i agree that rx-7 take alot of $ to hook up but 2 me it is worth it come on having a 400+ daily driven race car..
its worth it... the fact that u can say i beat ur 5.0l+ wit a 1.3L thats enuff satification 4 me.
bty their rx7s are highly reliable:flipa:
rogginator
12-09-2002, 09:02 PM
"yes i agree that rx-7 take alot of $ to hook up but 2 me it is worth it come on having a 400+ daily driven race car.."
but what if you were able to have that horsepower at half the price?
but what if you were able to have that horsepower at half the price?
philly fab
12-10-2002, 05:45 PM
This place is funny as all hell..SR20 claims his boys have reliable 13bs that are street driven..Lets see, whats teh name of the shop...I used to live in NY and started working at paisley automotive when i was there and im also good friends with Job Spetter of turbo people..I pretty much know of every fast shop there so it seems weird to me that you make this claim..During recent phone calls to NYC to catch up on BS these said cars werent known of..Kinda odd......................BTW puimp gas would be something at every gas station not race gas sold from a pumpWhat track do they drive them to? E town? I talked to the guys at neverlift and wild rides as well as cartec and know one knows of such a rx7?????
At any rate they may run 10s and be street driven but its not a 10 sec street car unless you can run it on the track with just a tire change..Hell I drove my 10.0 LT1/700R4 RX7 from philadelphia to atlanta without any problems...Except for the people at the rest stop harrasing me to look at the car in detail..
At any rate they may run 10s and be street driven but its not a 10 sec street car unless you can run it on the track with just a tire change..Hell I drove my 10.0 LT1/700R4 RX7 from philadelphia to atlanta without any problems...Except for the people at the rest stop harrasing me to look at the car in detail..
LS1 powered
12-10-2002, 08:36 PM
I love this forum!
FC3S
12-10-2002, 09:30 PM
The idea of V8 in RX-7 is unacceptable by many great mechanics and automakers in the world!!! How can people ever come out with such ideas??? :o
To those who cannot understand rotary can be as reliable and powerful as pistons is just plain ignorant. It is greatly known that pistons are more reliable but not necessarily more powerful just b'coz pistons has less chances of breaking and having higher reliability percentage than rotaries does not prove that rotary cannot be reliable. Plus twin-rotor rotaries are only equivalent to 4-cyl pistons so to be equal, tri-rotor rotary = V8 piston category. :eek:
We all rotary players understand it is the matter of cost when it comes to rotary maintainance. But heck, I own a junk-yard(spare parts) shop so I know it is not that expensive to maintain except for the motor, which can cost a bit more than pistons if you have to do a full rebuild. Otherwise, other parts you can just buy used parts, get them reconditioned and it is almost brand new.
I own a 346bhp '90 TII and it has almost 70K mileage on current motor (exact 69+K) and still performs like almost new. Also, my 1st gen motor breaks at 153K mileage in addition to that I bought it at a used car shop with 131K mileage. My '93 R1 ran 114K up to date and still going strong.
Another note is no other can rival the rotary in smoothness(linearic motion) and non-vibration.
To those who cannot understand rotary can be as reliable and powerful as pistons is just plain ignorant. It is greatly known that pistons are more reliable but not necessarily more powerful just b'coz pistons has less chances of breaking and having higher reliability percentage than rotaries does not prove that rotary cannot be reliable. Plus twin-rotor rotaries are only equivalent to 4-cyl pistons so to be equal, tri-rotor rotary = V8 piston category. :eek:
We all rotary players understand it is the matter of cost when it comes to rotary maintainance. But heck, I own a junk-yard(spare parts) shop so I know it is not that expensive to maintain except for the motor, which can cost a bit more than pistons if you have to do a full rebuild. Otherwise, other parts you can just buy used parts, get them reconditioned and it is almost brand new.
I own a 346bhp '90 TII and it has almost 70K mileage on current motor (exact 69+K) and still performs like almost new. Also, my 1st gen motor breaks at 153K mileage in addition to that I bought it at a used car shop with 131K mileage. My '93 R1 ran 114K up to date and still going strong.
Another note is no other can rival the rotary in smoothness(linearic motion) and non-vibration.
rxsskid
12-10-2002, 10:05 PM
I love this forum its so full of ignorance. You guys keep saying stuff about rotary enthusiasts and crap like that, give me a break. 80% of the guys dropping V8's used to be rotary guys but wanted real power. Hey, rotaries may be smooth but expensive and a pain to deal with. You say they are just as reliable. HA, I have seen guys run 9 second Big Block 78-81 Chevy Malibus (Flint Michigan) that are street driven every day. And, not quite a V8 but the Grand NAtional guys. Buick 3.8 turbos are probably the greatest power plant EVER and they can run 9-10sec in full street trim. I have NEVER seen a rotary pull a car into the 9's or even deep 10's without having more money put into them than they're worth. It's insane, the turbo upgrades and exhaust (downpipe, manifold) ALONE could break someone who isn't loaded. I don't know about anyone else but if I am gonna put that kind of money into a car I want it to have a great motor making good power that I Can still build on and not have tuned to the hilt. There are people running 8-9 second quarters off of small block chevy's that cost nearly the same to build as 11 second rx-7's, it ludicrous. Not to mention that the car with a small block will have a lot better temperment. SO say what you will and make up all of hte little facts and stories you want but the truth of the matter is that, while rotaries are good motors, they will never compare to a BUILT v8.
turbo2nr
12-11-2002, 08:52 AM
well i aint bullshitin the name of the shop is" tnr racing" located on parsons intbetween jamaica and liberty ave, o yea they also have a web site where u can see there e.t's so here u are go and check out www.rx7s.com and see for ur self.
philly fab
12-11-2002, 07:11 PM
and one year in bandcamp....................Websites are nice..
Since your so cool with them ask them to bring it to atco during the pan american nationals..Havent seen either car there and i didnt miss an event last year or the year before..If they are daily driven im sure they wouldnt mind proving to all us V8 Rx7 owners how stupid we are for saveing wads of cash and having a proven reliable drivetrain..We could go for a cruise through south jersey NMRA true street style and then make some passes....
Since your so cool with them ask them to bring it to atco during the pan american nationals..Havent seen either car there and i didnt miss an event last year or the year before..If they are daily driven im sure they wouldnt mind proving to all us V8 Rx7 owners how stupid we are for saveing wads of cash and having a proven reliable drivetrain..We could go for a cruise through south jersey NMRA true street style and then make some passes....
turbo2nr
12-12-2002, 08:20 AM
Since your so cool with them ask them to bring it to atco during the pan american
we'll i could do that if i was cool with u and all but scine you are trying to make me look like a lttle bitch, and i gave you proof of my claims i do not owe you anything else ....
... if you want to race them call up the shop and ask to talk to tony and\or romeo and set up a race date or something! i am not there agent i cannot tell them to go race someone all the way in alanta and also they have a shop to run! there shop is open monday through saturday so they are very busy but if u really want to race them give them a call and work something out.
their phone number is on there web site!
1
we'll i could do that if i was cool with u and all but scine you are trying to make me look like a lttle bitch, and i gave you proof of my claims i do not owe you anything else ....
... if you want to race them call up the shop and ask to talk to tony and\or romeo and set up a race date or something! i am not there agent i cannot tell them to go race someone all the way in alanta and also they have a shop to run! there shop is open monday through saturday so they are very busy but if u really want to race them give them a call and work something out.
their phone number is on there web site!
1
Chris V
12-12-2002, 09:16 AM
Typical rotary "purist" ignorance being shown here.
An RX7 is a CAR, not a religious shrine. It isn't rare or particularly valuable. Even a NICE 2nd gen can be had for around 2 grand, because they are so common. Dead ones can be had free.
People call the cars crap if they don't have the rotary, meaning you people who like the RX7 even feel that other than the engine, the car ITSELF is crap! As if without the engine, it loses it's superior suspension design, it's superior build quality, it's superior ergonomics, and it's outstanding styling. If I wanted another Mustang, i would have BUILT another mustang. If I wanted another 145 hp stock RX7 engine I would have SPENT the $2000 on doing that.
Here's the FACTS:
My '86 RX7 Sport had no AC, stock, no sunroof, and no power steering. But it had all teh suspension from teh Turbo. I added Tokiko sport springs and Tokiko HP struts, Yokohama A008 RSII autocross tires, and raced it for a year, winning the BSCC season's championship in it's class. At the end of that year (1993), the stock 145 hp rotary died. It was going to cost, at that time $2500 to build a new, stock 145 hp rotary. Or considerably more to install a stock 200 hp turbo rotary (or a Cartech turbo upgrade to a stock N/A rotary). Once the horsepower goes up, especialy in the early '90s, rotaries simply DO NOT LAST. For a grand, I bought a nearly 400 hp Ford 5.0 that had just been built for a friends drag car (but he decided not to go small black). I spent less than a grand doing the rest of the conversion (starting with $20 in materials to make the mounts). there was NO WAY to match the hp/torque per doller of the conversion by using a rotary.
Because of the engine setback (the V8, like the rotary, sits nearly completely behind the front axle centerline) the added weight of the V8 (420 lbs vs 330 lbs) was spread between the front and rear axles. Moving the batter y to the rear balanced that out, and WITHOUT GUTTING THE INTERIOR the weight balance ended up at 49/51! The total car weighed 2720 lbs, and 1300 lbs of that was on the nose. The pivot point is the wheels when judging mass. That's why corner scales are used, and not just one big one in the center of the car. Using corner scales, the pivot point is at the wheels. Since the weight is behind the wheels it pushes down not only on the front pivot point, but on the whole car to the rear of that pivot point, thus weight/mass is carried by the rear pivot point as well. Since both pivot points carry the mass, they split the total weight. That's the whole POINT of a mid engine car.
This a recorded, repeatable, fact. If you say the cars become nose heavy, you are WRONG. Get over it. If your theory doesn't fit with demonstrable fact, change the theory to match the facts.
http://speed.supercars.net/cboardpics/2002-8-16/259260a.jpg
http://speed.supercars.net/cboardpics/2002-8-16/259264a.jpg
A stock RX7 Turbo weighs 2880lbs. So even if I took my conversion, and changed it to a cast iron Chevy, thus adding at least another 100 lbs overall, the total weight is still not going to be heavier than a stock RX7 Turbo as a complete car (under 2900 lbs), and the weight balance will not be much different than my car, even though the total is up, for the reasons outlined in my description about weight pushing on a the pivot points. My car pulled over 1 G laterally, and even with teh RX7 rear end and gearing limited speed AND road race suspension setup (with short autocross tires) ran low 12s in the quarter. All for a $2000 total investment in the conversion.
Since a turbo RX7 is not considered a nose heavy pig, then obviously a car with the same weight and overall weight balance cannot be so considered, either. And that's the part we try to convey. What's funny is that people complain about the V8 being nose heavy and expensive, then offer up the 20B Turbo as a more appropriate option, even though it costs VASTLY more and actually ends up with much worse weight balance than even a stock RX7 turbo, due to the added forward length and the fact that the 20B with turbos and intercooler weigh more than the small block V8...
V8 RX7s are a cheap way to have a balanced handling car with superior style, ergonomics, and build quality, with the high power and high torque, and reliability of a low cost understressed domestic V8.
An RX7 is a CAR, not a religious shrine. It isn't rare or particularly valuable. Even a NICE 2nd gen can be had for around 2 grand, because they are so common. Dead ones can be had free.
People call the cars crap if they don't have the rotary, meaning you people who like the RX7 even feel that other than the engine, the car ITSELF is crap! As if without the engine, it loses it's superior suspension design, it's superior build quality, it's superior ergonomics, and it's outstanding styling. If I wanted another Mustang, i would have BUILT another mustang. If I wanted another 145 hp stock RX7 engine I would have SPENT the $2000 on doing that.
Here's the FACTS:
My '86 RX7 Sport had no AC, stock, no sunroof, and no power steering. But it had all teh suspension from teh Turbo. I added Tokiko sport springs and Tokiko HP struts, Yokohama A008 RSII autocross tires, and raced it for a year, winning the BSCC season's championship in it's class. At the end of that year (1993), the stock 145 hp rotary died. It was going to cost, at that time $2500 to build a new, stock 145 hp rotary. Or considerably more to install a stock 200 hp turbo rotary (or a Cartech turbo upgrade to a stock N/A rotary). Once the horsepower goes up, especialy in the early '90s, rotaries simply DO NOT LAST. For a grand, I bought a nearly 400 hp Ford 5.0 that had just been built for a friends drag car (but he decided not to go small black). I spent less than a grand doing the rest of the conversion (starting with $20 in materials to make the mounts). there was NO WAY to match the hp/torque per doller of the conversion by using a rotary.
Because of the engine setback (the V8, like the rotary, sits nearly completely behind the front axle centerline) the added weight of the V8 (420 lbs vs 330 lbs) was spread between the front and rear axles. Moving the batter y to the rear balanced that out, and WITHOUT GUTTING THE INTERIOR the weight balance ended up at 49/51! The total car weighed 2720 lbs, and 1300 lbs of that was on the nose. The pivot point is the wheels when judging mass. That's why corner scales are used, and not just one big one in the center of the car. Using corner scales, the pivot point is at the wheels. Since the weight is behind the wheels it pushes down not only on the front pivot point, but on the whole car to the rear of that pivot point, thus weight/mass is carried by the rear pivot point as well. Since both pivot points carry the mass, they split the total weight. That's the whole POINT of a mid engine car.
This a recorded, repeatable, fact. If you say the cars become nose heavy, you are WRONG. Get over it. If your theory doesn't fit with demonstrable fact, change the theory to match the facts.
http://speed.supercars.net/cboardpics/2002-8-16/259260a.jpg
http://speed.supercars.net/cboardpics/2002-8-16/259264a.jpg
A stock RX7 Turbo weighs 2880lbs. So even if I took my conversion, and changed it to a cast iron Chevy, thus adding at least another 100 lbs overall, the total weight is still not going to be heavier than a stock RX7 Turbo as a complete car (under 2900 lbs), and the weight balance will not be much different than my car, even though the total is up, for the reasons outlined in my description about weight pushing on a the pivot points. My car pulled over 1 G laterally, and even with teh RX7 rear end and gearing limited speed AND road race suspension setup (with short autocross tires) ran low 12s in the quarter. All for a $2000 total investment in the conversion.
Since a turbo RX7 is not considered a nose heavy pig, then obviously a car with the same weight and overall weight balance cannot be so considered, either. And that's the part we try to convey. What's funny is that people complain about the V8 being nose heavy and expensive, then offer up the 20B Turbo as a more appropriate option, even though it costs VASTLY more and actually ends up with much worse weight balance than even a stock RX7 turbo, due to the added forward length and the fact that the 20B with turbos and intercooler weigh more than the small block V8...
V8 RX7s are a cheap way to have a balanced handling car with superior style, ergonomics, and build quality, with the high power and high torque, and reliability of a low cost understressed domestic V8.
TOUGHGUY
12-13-2002, 05:52 PM
Cbass, me thinks your idea about the Porsche transaxle may be undermined by the available gearing. When doing a V8 swap, the rear end gearing is a concern because V8s produce their power and torque lower in the rev range than rotaries do. You are swaping in a motor that will only need about 2500 RPM to EFFORTLESSLY propel a car with the aerodynamic properties of the RX7 at 100mph but you require the gearing to do so. Typical RX7 gearing is in the 3.90-4.10 to 1 range with a rotary that can turn 7000rpm with more revs in reserve (at the cost of worn apex seals) so when you swap in a SB ford that makes all its HP below 4500 rpm and can (on average) safely spin to about 5500 rpm before doing bad things, the final drive gearing becomes an issue. With a SB V8, your motor will be turning in the neighborhood of 4000 rpm at 70 mph! While this may be great for autocross, you will find that it won't be very good on the road. Find out what your ratios are and do the math to see if you will end up with something streetable or with something that will need 5000 rpm to maintain 80mph on the highway! Now, while it is easily possible to build a SB Ford that can spin to 7000 rpm, it is NOT cheap and it certainly won't be very civilised on the street.
My '82 will be getting a SB Ford sometime in the next couple of years so I have done quite a bit of reasearch on this. For all you die-hard rotary guys, I think it's sad that you do not see the merit in an engine swap of this nature. You are absolutely correct that per displacement, the Wankel rotary is a tough design to beat when it comes to making horespower. The problem is that I want a car that can last a long time before needing a rebuild all the while giving me the power to be able to hang with 'vettes and vipers. To each his own.
Toughguy :)
P.S. I turned every bolt on this car and I'll be damned if ANYBODY is gonna tell me what I can and can't do with it! If you don't like the color, close your eyes.
My '82 will be getting a SB Ford sometime in the next couple of years so I have done quite a bit of reasearch on this. For all you die-hard rotary guys, I think it's sad that you do not see the merit in an engine swap of this nature. You are absolutely correct that per displacement, the Wankel rotary is a tough design to beat when it comes to making horespower. The problem is that I want a car that can last a long time before needing a rebuild all the while giving me the power to be able to hang with 'vettes and vipers. To each his own.
Toughguy :)
P.S. I turned every bolt on this car and I'll be damned if ANYBODY is gonna tell me what I can and can't do with it! If you don't like the color, close your eyes.
LS1 powered
12-13-2002, 06:12 PM
Good info ya got there, but........
Those of us who use the T56 (6 speed) come out perfect. My car, on the Interstate at 75mph, turns 2400rpm. That's not to bad!
By the way, I'm running 4.10's in back...
Those of us who use the T56 (6 speed) come out perfect. My car, on the Interstate at 75mph, turns 2400rpm. That's not to bad!
By the way, I'm running 4.10's in back...
Devilbat
12-14-2002, 09:08 AM
Dude, your car is a work of art. You did a fantastic job.
Originally posted by Chris V
Typical rotary "purist" ignorance being shown here.
An RX7 is a CAR, not a religious shrine. It isn't rare or particularly valuable. Even a NICE 2nd gen can be had for around 2 grand, because they are so common. Dead ones can be had free.
d reliability of a low cost understressed domestic V8.
Originally posted by Chris V
Typical rotary "purist" ignorance being shown here.
An RX7 is a CAR, not a religious shrine. It isn't rare or particularly valuable. Even a NICE 2nd gen can be had for around 2 grand, because they are so common. Dead ones can be had free.
d reliability of a low cost understressed domestic V8.
Kaneto
12-16-2002, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by Chris V
Typical rotary "purist" ignorance being shown here.
An RX7 is a CAR, not a religious shrine. It isn't rare or particularly valuable. Even a NICE 2nd gen can be had for around 2 grand, because they are so common. Dead ones can be had free.
To some people, a car almost is a religious shrine.
People love different cars for different reason, and it's not always something that you can just boil down to numbers. Heritage and history have a lot to do with it.
Yes, you can put a V8 in a RX-7 and make more power than most rotaries out there. Sure, you can make it handle about the same. If that's the way you want to go, then by all means go for it.
Understand, though, that to a rotary "purist", the rotary is part of the car. Taking the rotary out of the RX-7 is like taking someone's heart out. It can be replaced with something else... but to some people, it's just not the same.
It's not ignorance, it's love. Love for the car as it was built, and the history that the line has. If you refuse to accept that some people can hold such reverance for a car's design, then it is you who is ignorant.
Typical rotary "purist" ignorance being shown here.
An RX7 is a CAR, not a religious shrine. It isn't rare or particularly valuable. Even a NICE 2nd gen can be had for around 2 grand, because they are so common. Dead ones can be had free.
To some people, a car almost is a religious shrine.
People love different cars for different reason, and it's not always something that you can just boil down to numbers. Heritage and history have a lot to do with it.
Yes, you can put a V8 in a RX-7 and make more power than most rotaries out there. Sure, you can make it handle about the same. If that's the way you want to go, then by all means go for it.
Understand, though, that to a rotary "purist", the rotary is part of the car. Taking the rotary out of the RX-7 is like taking someone's heart out. It can be replaced with something else... but to some people, it's just not the same.
It's not ignorance, it's love. Love for the car as it was built, and the history that the line has. If you refuse to accept that some people can hold such reverance for a car's design, then it is you who is ignorant.
Cbass
12-16-2002, 01:41 PM
Toughguy, the transmission I am using is a transaxle for a front engined, rear transmission Porsche 924 Turbo. There is a traditional bellhousing, and a driveshaft that goes to the transmission, in the rear. Actually, there is an outer shell containing bearings, and an inner 1.25" solid driveshaft, this arrangement is called the torque tube. The differential is contained inside the transaxle, so the gearing should be perfect. At 5000 rpm, I should be doing 160mph.
Kaneto, I understand exactly what you mean. There is a certain mystique and feeling about rotary engines, and if I had the money, I would have a FD parked in my driveway right now, powered by a 400hp 13B.
A common misconception is that rotaries are unreliable, and this is a half truth. An engine is only as reliable as you make it, and if you abuse any engine, it will fail. Some engines have more tolerance for this than others, but that doesn't make them more or less reliable, that makes them more tolerant to abuse. A rotary that is well cared for will last a very long time, just the same as a smallblock. A smallblock that never gets it's oil changed, is overheated, and then flogged daily will break down fairly quickly.
We all love RX7s, why should we quibble about which engine powers the car?
Kaneto, I understand exactly what you mean. There is a certain mystique and feeling about rotary engines, and if I had the money, I would have a FD parked in my driveway right now, powered by a 400hp 13B.
A common misconception is that rotaries are unreliable, and this is a half truth. An engine is only as reliable as you make it, and if you abuse any engine, it will fail. Some engines have more tolerance for this than others, but that doesn't make them more or less reliable, that makes them more tolerant to abuse. A rotary that is well cared for will last a very long time, just the same as a smallblock. A smallblock that never gets it's oil changed, is overheated, and then flogged daily will break down fairly quickly.
We all love RX7s, why should we quibble about which engine powers the car?
Chris V
12-17-2002, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by Kaneto
To some people, a car almost is a religious shrine.
People love different cars for different reason, and it's not always something that you can just boil down to numbers. Heritage and history have a lot to do with it.
If you make a mass produced compromise of a car a religious shrine, you have a problem. And if you start denigrating people who are building personalized versions of that car to better fit THEIR desires, then you have a SERIOUS problem, and need to step back.
Yes, you can put a V8 in a RX-7 and make more power than most rotaries out there. Sure, you can make it handle about the same. If that's the way you want to go, then by all means go for it.
You can make it handle better. My car, with no other suspension mods, handled better after the conversion than before. Do you understand that? That isn't "about the same." I've been autocrossing for a couple decades, and was an SCCA and BSCC driving instructor. I've driven everything from huge sedans to formula cars on the track, and built national championship winning autocross cars. I know what handling is about.
Understand, though, that to a rotary "purist", the rotary is part of the car. Taking the rotary out of the RX-7 is like taking someone's heart out. It can be replaced with something else... but to some people, it's just not the same.
No, to a rotary purist, the rotary is theonly part of the car that matters: without it, the car is crap. They completely ignore every other good quality of the car. It is not a complete package. It is a home for the rotary, and the rotary, to them, is what imbues the rest of the car with goodness, as though the ONLY reason it works the way it does in every other area is that engine. This is demonstrably untrue! The rotary is ONE internal combustion engine design. It's a fabulous design. But it's only one part of the whole car.
It's not ignorance, it's love. Love for the car as it was built, and the history that the line has. If you refuse to accept that some people can hold such reverance for a car's design, then it is you who is ignorant.
I don't refuse to accept it. I refuse to allow those narowminded fools to denigrate people who are NOT narrowminded, who are NOT mentally challenged by being religiously blinded by a goddamn bit of mass produced, manmade mechanical invention!
Telling people that they have irrational "love" for a mechanical device is not being ignorant. What is ignorant is the statements of "fact" they make about the cars in stock and modified form, most of which are demonstrably untrue. Spouting non-facts to a quasi-religious bent is ignorant.
(edit- dang tags...)
To some people, a car almost is a religious shrine.
People love different cars for different reason, and it's not always something that you can just boil down to numbers. Heritage and history have a lot to do with it.
If you make a mass produced compromise of a car a religious shrine, you have a problem. And if you start denigrating people who are building personalized versions of that car to better fit THEIR desires, then you have a SERIOUS problem, and need to step back.
Yes, you can put a V8 in a RX-7 and make more power than most rotaries out there. Sure, you can make it handle about the same. If that's the way you want to go, then by all means go for it.
You can make it handle better. My car, with no other suspension mods, handled better after the conversion than before. Do you understand that? That isn't "about the same." I've been autocrossing for a couple decades, and was an SCCA and BSCC driving instructor. I've driven everything from huge sedans to formula cars on the track, and built national championship winning autocross cars. I know what handling is about.
Understand, though, that to a rotary "purist", the rotary is part of the car. Taking the rotary out of the RX-7 is like taking someone's heart out. It can be replaced with something else... but to some people, it's just not the same.
No, to a rotary purist, the rotary is theonly part of the car that matters: without it, the car is crap. They completely ignore every other good quality of the car. It is not a complete package. It is a home for the rotary, and the rotary, to them, is what imbues the rest of the car with goodness, as though the ONLY reason it works the way it does in every other area is that engine. This is demonstrably untrue! The rotary is ONE internal combustion engine design. It's a fabulous design. But it's only one part of the whole car.
It's not ignorance, it's love. Love for the car as it was built, and the history that the line has. If you refuse to accept that some people can hold such reverance for a car's design, then it is you who is ignorant.
I don't refuse to accept it. I refuse to allow those narowminded fools to denigrate people who are NOT narrowminded, who are NOT mentally challenged by being religiously blinded by a goddamn bit of mass produced, manmade mechanical invention!
Telling people that they have irrational "love" for a mechanical device is not being ignorant. What is ignorant is the statements of "fact" they make about the cars in stock and modified form, most of which are demonstrably untrue. Spouting non-facts to a quasi-religious bent is ignorant.
(edit- dang tags...)
Kaneto
12-18-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Chris V
If you make a mass produced compromise of a car a religious shrine, you have a problem. And if you start denigrating people who are building personalized versions of that car to better fit THEIR desires, then you have a SERIOUS problem, and need to step back.
It's called a figure of speech. :rolleyes:
And in no way am I denigrating anyone else's decisions on what they do to their cars.
You can make it handle better. My car, with no other suspension mods, handled better after the conversion than before. Do you understand that? That isn't "about the same." I've been autocrossing for a couple decades, and was an SCCA and BSCC driving instructor. I've driven everything from huge sedans to formula cars on the track, and built national championship winning autocross cars. I know what handling is about.
You'll have to explain how a car with roughly the same weight distribution, as you've pointed out, and no changes to the suspension, handles better. Are you sure it isn't in your head?
No, to a rotary purist, the rotary is theonly part of the car that matters: without it, the car is crap. They completely ignore every other good quality of the car. It is not a complete package. It is a home for the rotary, and the rotary, to them, is what imbues the rest of the car with goodness, as though the ONLY reason it works the way it does in every other area is that engine. This is demonstrably untrue! The rotary is ONE internal combustion engine design. It's a fabulous design. But it's only one part of the whole car.
Then I don't know what rotary purist you've been talking to. For myself, and every other rotary fan I know, it's about the total car package. It's about the car as a whole, and the rotary is part of that car. I doubt your "rotary purists" would be so adamant about a rotary engine in a Mustang. Sure, it would be a neat conversion, but they would still recognize the fact that the Mustang wasn't built with a rotary in mind, just as an RX-7 wasn't built with a piston engine in mind.
I don't refuse to accept it. I refuse to allow those narowminded fools to denigrate people who are NOT narrowminded, who are NOT mentally challenged by being religiously blinded by a goddamn bit of mass produced, manmade mechanical invention!
Telling people that they have irrational "love" for a mechanical device is not being ignorant. What is ignorant is the statements of "fact" they make about the cars in stock and modified form, most of which are demonstrably untrue. Spouting non-facts to a quasi-religious bent is ignorant.
Well then good for you. Just understand that not all "rotary purists" are like the ones you've talked to. Just because I would never put anything but a rotary engine in a RX-7, doesn't mean I think a 7 with a piston engine will be any less of a car performance-wise.
If you make a mass produced compromise of a car a religious shrine, you have a problem. And if you start denigrating people who are building personalized versions of that car to better fit THEIR desires, then you have a SERIOUS problem, and need to step back.
It's called a figure of speech. :rolleyes:
And in no way am I denigrating anyone else's decisions on what they do to their cars.
You can make it handle better. My car, with no other suspension mods, handled better after the conversion than before. Do you understand that? That isn't "about the same." I've been autocrossing for a couple decades, and was an SCCA and BSCC driving instructor. I've driven everything from huge sedans to formula cars on the track, and built national championship winning autocross cars. I know what handling is about.
You'll have to explain how a car with roughly the same weight distribution, as you've pointed out, and no changes to the suspension, handles better. Are you sure it isn't in your head?
No, to a rotary purist, the rotary is theonly part of the car that matters: without it, the car is crap. They completely ignore every other good quality of the car. It is not a complete package. It is a home for the rotary, and the rotary, to them, is what imbues the rest of the car with goodness, as though the ONLY reason it works the way it does in every other area is that engine. This is demonstrably untrue! The rotary is ONE internal combustion engine design. It's a fabulous design. But it's only one part of the whole car.
Then I don't know what rotary purist you've been talking to. For myself, and every other rotary fan I know, it's about the total car package. It's about the car as a whole, and the rotary is part of that car. I doubt your "rotary purists" would be so adamant about a rotary engine in a Mustang. Sure, it would be a neat conversion, but they would still recognize the fact that the Mustang wasn't built with a rotary in mind, just as an RX-7 wasn't built with a piston engine in mind.
I don't refuse to accept it. I refuse to allow those narowminded fools to denigrate people who are NOT narrowminded, who are NOT mentally challenged by being religiously blinded by a goddamn bit of mass produced, manmade mechanical invention!
Telling people that they have irrational "love" for a mechanical device is not being ignorant. What is ignorant is the statements of "fact" they make about the cars in stock and modified form, most of which are demonstrably untrue. Spouting non-facts to a quasi-religious bent is ignorant.
Well then good for you. Just understand that not all "rotary purists" are like the ones you've talked to. Just because I would never put anything but a rotary engine in a RX-7, doesn't mean I think a 7 with a piston engine will be any less of a car performance-wise.
Steel
12-21-2002, 10:07 PM
Can't find the source, but Yamamoto himself said (paraphrasing) "Without the rotary, the RX-7 cannot exist..."
edit: here it is! "Almost immediately after taking over the RX-7 program, Kobayakawa began work on the next generation. And while there was total freedom over the powerplant choice for the new sports car, the rotary was selected, first for compactness and power potential, but also for heritage. Said Yamamoto: "To forsake the rotary would be losing our identity. The RX-7 could not and would not exist without the rotary"
-Very Good RX-7 page (http://members.rogers.com/sofronov/Cars/Mazda/Past/Rotary/91RX7.html)
edit: here it is! "Almost immediately after taking over the RX-7 program, Kobayakawa began work on the next generation. And while there was total freedom over the powerplant choice for the new sports car, the rotary was selected, first for compactness and power potential, but also for heritage. Said Yamamoto: "To forsake the rotary would be losing our identity. The RX-7 could not and would not exist without the rotary"
-Very Good RX-7 page (http://members.rogers.com/sofronov/Cars/Mazda/Past/Rotary/91RX7.html)
Chris V
12-26-2002, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Kaneto
Well then good for you. Just understand that not all "rotary purists" are like the ones you've talked to. Just because I would never put anything but a rotary engine in a RX-7, doesn't mean I think a 7 with a piston engine will be any less of a car performance-wise.
I built the car in '93. Since then, teh vast majority of people who have seen it have ben understanding, including on RX7 mailing lists and message boards. But ALL of the rotary "purists" that have chimed in have said very nearly verbatim (including some of them right here in this thread) what I described. Trust me, after hearing the same thing from a small group of people (all of whom claimed to be rotary purists), for nearly a decade, you get the idea that they really are all the same. Everyone who liked the car made sure to state that they weren't rotary purists, and everyone who spouted the misinformation and the claims I stated made sure to announce it.
Originally posted by Kaneto
You'll have to explain how a car with roughly the same weight distribution, as you've pointed out, and no changes to the suspension, handles better. Are you sure it isn't in your head?
Did I not state that clearly enough? I autocrossed the car before the conversion for a year and after the conversion. I got to drive it extensively in both forms: as a rotary engine autocrosser and a V8 autocrosser. In V8 form it was more stable and turned in better. It was easier to balance on the throttle and wasn't as twitchy (which I really wan't expecting...). The weigh was approximately the same, but it went from 51/49 to 49/51. When going for that last few hundredths of a second, that's a noticeable difference. Especially to someone trained to notice such differences.
Well then good for you. Just understand that not all "rotary purists" are like the ones you've talked to. Just because I would never put anything but a rotary engine in a RX-7, doesn't mean I think a 7 with a piston engine will be any less of a car performance-wise.
I built the car in '93. Since then, teh vast majority of people who have seen it have ben understanding, including on RX7 mailing lists and message boards. But ALL of the rotary "purists" that have chimed in have said very nearly verbatim (including some of them right here in this thread) what I described. Trust me, after hearing the same thing from a small group of people (all of whom claimed to be rotary purists), for nearly a decade, you get the idea that they really are all the same. Everyone who liked the car made sure to state that they weren't rotary purists, and everyone who spouted the misinformation and the claims I stated made sure to announce it.
Originally posted by Kaneto
You'll have to explain how a car with roughly the same weight distribution, as you've pointed out, and no changes to the suspension, handles better. Are you sure it isn't in your head?
Did I not state that clearly enough? I autocrossed the car before the conversion for a year and after the conversion. I got to drive it extensively in both forms: as a rotary engine autocrosser and a V8 autocrosser. In V8 form it was more stable and turned in better. It was easier to balance on the throttle and wasn't as twitchy (which I really wan't expecting...). The weigh was approximately the same, but it went from 51/49 to 49/51. When going for that last few hundredths of a second, that's a noticeable difference. Especially to someone trained to notice such differences.
Kaneto
12-27-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Chris V
Did I not state that clearly enough? I autocrossed the car before the conversion for a year and after the conversion. I got to drive it extensively in both forms: as a rotary engine autocrosser and a V8 autocrosser. In V8 form it was more stable and turned in better. It was easier to balance on the throttle and wasn't as twitchy (which I really wan't expecting...). The weigh was approximately the same, but it went from 51/49 to 49/51. When going for that last few hundredths of a second, that's a noticeable difference. Especially to someone trained to notice such differences.
No, you didn't. But thank you for clarifying. Moving 2% of the wieght from front to back really isn't that difficult, regardless of what engine you have in there.
Basically it tells me than a V8 conversion can be made to handle better than a stock RX-7 similar to how a few simple mods in a rotary-powered RX-7 can be made to handle better than stock. All that seperates then is personal preference in the power delivery.
Did I not state that clearly enough? I autocrossed the car before the conversion for a year and after the conversion. I got to drive it extensively in both forms: as a rotary engine autocrosser and a V8 autocrosser. In V8 form it was more stable and turned in better. It was easier to balance on the throttle and wasn't as twitchy (which I really wan't expecting...). The weigh was approximately the same, but it went from 51/49 to 49/51. When going for that last few hundredths of a second, that's a noticeable difference. Especially to someone trained to notice such differences.
No, you didn't. But thank you for clarifying. Moving 2% of the wieght from front to back really isn't that difficult, regardless of what engine you have in there.
Basically it tells me than a V8 conversion can be made to handle better than a stock RX-7 similar to how a few simple mods in a rotary-powered RX-7 can be made to handle better than stock. All that seperates then is personal preference in the power delivery.
Big Guy
12-27-2002, 09:09 PM
what about that new renesis motor? if there is going to be a 3 rotor version (:devil:) to compete with the v8 sb im pretty sure it would beat the crap out it.
my $.02
my $.02
Chris V
12-31-2002, 11:49 AM
I really hope for good things from the Renesis. But, like the 20BTT, it isn't a cost effective swap compared to the V8 in a car like the 2nd gen RX7 (though it would be a much better choice than the 20B for handling). All I really hope is that the Renesis engine will start a resurgance of rotary engine interest in new cars and race cars.
.................................................. .........
Basically it tells me than a V8 conversion can be made to handle better than a stock RX-7 similar to how a few simple mods in a rotary-powered RX-7 can be made to handle better than stock. All that seperates then is personal preference in the power delivery.
Which is what I try to impart to people that say the car has had it's balance ruined. The car is balanced better than a stock RX7, and weighs less than a stock RX7 turbo. Even though you can improve both the stocker and the turbo, no one calls them poorly balanced or overweight, so any version that is improved over the stockers cant be called bad, regardless of how the power is delivered.
And yes, personal preference is the key. I love rotaries, but my wallet wouldn't let me have a 300+ hp one. Heck, at the time, it didn't want me to spend more on a stock rebuild.
.................................................. .........
Basically it tells me than a V8 conversion can be made to handle better than a stock RX-7 similar to how a few simple mods in a rotary-powered RX-7 can be made to handle better than stock. All that seperates then is personal preference in the power delivery.
Which is what I try to impart to people that say the car has had it's balance ruined. The car is balanced better than a stock RX7, and weighs less than a stock RX7 turbo. Even though you can improve both the stocker and the turbo, no one calls them poorly balanced or overweight, so any version that is improved over the stockers cant be called bad, regardless of how the power is delivered.
And yes, personal preference is the key. I love rotaries, but my wallet wouldn't let me have a 300+ hp one. Heck, at the time, it didn't want me to spend more on a stock rebuild.
Steel
01-01-2003, 04:59 AM
well, IMO, V8 7's don't bug me. Not my cup of tea, but i think it's cool if people want to do it. The guys at rx7club are are anal-retentive. Uh that's about it.
*edit* actually, i think it'd be really cool if someone put a FERRARI V8 in their 7. Somehow. That would just kick major ass.
*edit* actually, i think it'd be really cool if someone put a FERRARI V8 in their 7. Somehow. That would just kick major ass.
Chris V
01-02-2003, 12:03 PM
So true, Steel.
BTW, looking at your sig for coming mods:
"Remanufactured street ported TII S5 engine, TII Tranny and drivetrain, GReddy T04E Turbocharger, GReddy 24v FMIC, Haltech E6K EMS, 760cc/1600cc injectors, Corksport single/dual (still deciding)catback, Electric fan"
What's the cost, and what's the power output (both hp AND torque)? How about daily driver reliability and docil street manners when off the throttle? These are the reasons that I couldn't budget to build a turbo rotary for my car when it died. As I recall, just the Haltech E6k is around $1200, and that doesn't include the specialized MAP sensor, O2 sensor, connectors, or terminated wiring harness. I did my conversion to 390 hp and 400 lb ft of torque for under $2000 total (not including purchase price of the car itself, which was a trade for a car I got for free...).
A lot of people say they can get 400 hp from a rotary. But the cost is enormous in comparison. If they wanted me to go that way, THEY should have had to come up with the difference in cost. :) I have nothing against building a fast rotary. I just want to stress this isn't a bad way to go, either.
BTW, looking at your sig for coming mods:
"Remanufactured street ported TII S5 engine, TII Tranny and drivetrain, GReddy T04E Turbocharger, GReddy 24v FMIC, Haltech E6K EMS, 760cc/1600cc injectors, Corksport single/dual (still deciding)catback, Electric fan"
What's the cost, and what's the power output (both hp AND torque)? How about daily driver reliability and docil street manners when off the throttle? These are the reasons that I couldn't budget to build a turbo rotary for my car when it died. As I recall, just the Haltech E6k is around $1200, and that doesn't include the specialized MAP sensor, O2 sensor, connectors, or terminated wiring harness. I did my conversion to 390 hp and 400 lb ft of torque for under $2000 total (not including purchase price of the car itself, which was a trade for a car I got for free...).
A lot of people say they can get 400 hp from a rotary. But the cost is enormous in comparison. If they wanted me to go that way, THEY should have had to come up with the difference in cost. :) I have nothing against building a fast rotary. I just want to stress this isn't a bad way to go, either.
Cbass
01-17-2003, 04:50 PM
400hp with a ported TII engine isn't hard at all... then again, there's no need to buy outlandishly expensive GReddy stuff. A rebuilt T04 will provide all the air you need, and with stand alone engine management, you don't need an extra fuel, ignition or boost controller.
Rotaries aren't all that expensive, as was shown earlier in the thread in a link that I think Kaneto gave me... $2400 for a professionally ported and rebuilt TII, which is quite reasonable if you look into buying a crate engine. That's comparable with a 330hp Vortec 350 for $2500, and the RE has more potential on it's stock internals.
Still, $2500 is completely out of my league right now, so I'm going to stick with the 400M/G31 concept.
Rotaries aren't all that expensive, as was shown earlier in the thread in a link that I think Kaneto gave me... $2400 for a professionally ported and rebuilt TII, which is quite reasonable if you look into buying a crate engine. That's comparable with a 330hp Vortec 350 for $2500, and the RE has more potential on it's stock internals.
Still, $2500 is completely out of my league right now, so I'm going to stick with the 400M/G31 concept.
Steel
01-17-2003, 05:16 PM
eh, check the sig again. I'd rather waste the money on a FD now, because that 2nd gen wont be very streetable.
Chris V
01-18-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Cbass
400hp with a ported TII engine isn't hard at all... then again, there's no need to buy outlandishly expensive GReddy stuff. A rebuilt T04 will provide all the air you need, and with stand alone engine management, you don't need an extra fuel, ignition or boost controller.
That stand alone engine management runs close to $2k all by itself.
Rotaries aren't all that expensive, as was shown earlier in the thread in a link that I think Kaneto gave me... $2400 for a professionally ported and rebuilt TII, which is quite reasonable if you look into buying a crate engine. That's comparable with a 330hp Vortec 350 for $2500, and the RE has more potential on it's stock internals.
Add to that $2400 of the rebuilt TII (which did not exist back in '93, sorry.) the cost of the previously mentioned engine management, and the rebuilt larger turbo, and you can see the costs spike pretty quick, and teh end result is a ported rotary with a turbo, which makes great uppper rpm power numbers, but becomes not very driveable in daily use and has a vastly reduced lifespan.
I've seen these rotary cars and how long they last between rebuilds at these relatively low hp numbers. To me, they are very simple to rebuild, but the benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks.
The Vortec SBC can withstand greater amounts of detonation if it happens (read it can withstand any detonation, which the rotary can't), and overal potential is greater from the smallblock. The rotary is a turbo already at that power level, while the SBC can still be turbocharged or supercharged for serious power with similar reliability and driveability to the lower power turbo rotary. Most guys, however, are buying good used V8s from late model Camaros and Firebirds, and getting the engine management and 6 speed transmissions with them for that price, and not dealing with the lower potential of the Vortech engine.
Of course, in both cases, you've left budget way behind, so to me, it becomes immaterial what its ultimate potential is, as I'm never going to spend that much on an engine. :)
400hp with a ported TII engine isn't hard at all... then again, there's no need to buy outlandishly expensive GReddy stuff. A rebuilt T04 will provide all the air you need, and with stand alone engine management, you don't need an extra fuel, ignition or boost controller.
That stand alone engine management runs close to $2k all by itself.
Rotaries aren't all that expensive, as was shown earlier in the thread in a link that I think Kaneto gave me... $2400 for a professionally ported and rebuilt TII, which is quite reasonable if you look into buying a crate engine. That's comparable with a 330hp Vortec 350 for $2500, and the RE has more potential on it's stock internals.
Add to that $2400 of the rebuilt TII (which did not exist back in '93, sorry.) the cost of the previously mentioned engine management, and the rebuilt larger turbo, and you can see the costs spike pretty quick, and teh end result is a ported rotary with a turbo, which makes great uppper rpm power numbers, but becomes not very driveable in daily use and has a vastly reduced lifespan.
I've seen these rotary cars and how long they last between rebuilds at these relatively low hp numbers. To me, they are very simple to rebuild, but the benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks.
The Vortec SBC can withstand greater amounts of detonation if it happens (read it can withstand any detonation, which the rotary can't), and overal potential is greater from the smallblock. The rotary is a turbo already at that power level, while the SBC can still be turbocharged or supercharged for serious power with similar reliability and driveability to the lower power turbo rotary. Most guys, however, are buying good used V8s from late model Camaros and Firebirds, and getting the engine management and 6 speed transmissions with them for that price, and not dealing with the lower potential of the Vortech engine.
Of course, in both cases, you've left budget way behind, so to me, it becomes immaterial what its ultimate potential is, as I'm never going to spend that much on an engine. :)
SlipoftheCondom
01-18-2003, 05:18 PM
Anyone know of anyone running a LS6 in a 7? I have a Turbo II (no engine/transmission) and a machine shop next-door with a LS6 that may be for sale... I've found kits for the LS1, but not the LS6... Can anyone help me out in pointing me to the right direction?
Please, no need for "Don't do that to your RX7" comments.
Please, no need for "Don't do that to your RX7" comments.
Steel
01-19-2003, 10:45 PM
Well now, im thinking of going piston power.
NO! not what you think! my 7 is keeping its spinners.
Nope, what i meant is that toyota supra's have caught my eye. Only problem is that mk4 supras are ridiculously overpriced. But i might get lucky.
NO! not what you think! my 7 is keeping its spinners.
Nope, what i meant is that toyota supra's have caught my eye. Only problem is that mk4 supras are ridiculously overpriced. But i might get lucky.
FunkLord
01-23-2003, 02:04 AM
theres some pretty pathetic and ignorant responses here.... a v8 has its advantages... so does a rotary... the worlds fastest rx-7's are all rotary powered. a 20B engine has the potential for 4-digit HP on the stock engine block. a v8 will have more low end torque, and in the 450-500hp range, will be more streetable. but when you get up to the higher hp ranges, both of them throw streetability out the window... probbably a supercharged v8 would have the best streetability with the highest HP... but superchargers arent cheap. even if you make a v8 rx-7 as light as a stock t2... you can still make the rotary rx-7 lighter. the block itself it lighter. any weight reduction can be done to both versions. even at the same weight, the rotary one will have a lower center of gravity because of how the engine sits... a n/a v8 wont be able to make as much power as a turbo 20b. but a turbo v8 would be able to... but again... turbocharging a v8 isnt cheap or easy. and in terms of gas mileage and reliability... i ask you this: would you swap a 1.6L honda engine into your car? probbably not.
theres plenty more to go into, but the fact remains that everything has its ups and downs. you have to evaluate your own goals and see what suits you best.
i drive a rotary powered rx-7. heres my reasons
-handling
-its different... most people dont even know what it is let alone how it works
-power:weight
-rotary's love turbos, and so do i.
-in my opinion, a rotary engine has a superior design, it just lacks the overwhelming R&D that piston engines have and that one day all cars will be rotary powered...it almost happened once already! as long as the internal combustion engine doesnt become obselete first...
theres plenty more to go into, but the fact remains that everything has its ups and downs. you have to evaluate your own goals and see what suits you best.
i drive a rotary powered rx-7. heres my reasons
-handling
-its different... most people dont even know what it is let alone how it works
-power:weight
-rotary's love turbos, and so do i.
-in my opinion, a rotary engine has a superior design, it just lacks the overwhelming R&D that piston engines have and that one day all cars will be rotary powered...it almost happened once already! as long as the internal combustion engine doesnt become obselete first...
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