Pontiac Engine Myths

To any of you thinking about not building a Pontiac engine because of some problem you think PMD has, check out this link.

http://www.geocities.com/ramairgto72/TIPS/MYTH.html

This cut/pasted portion of Bruce Fulper's website is reasonaby accurate, with a few minor details we've learned more about over the last 5 years.

The d-port info is a bit slanted, as is the E-head stuff. We've flowed many, and the "12" has a better exhaust flow than any of the other D-ports, by a good margin (175 vs. 155 in the others). Intake ports all flow right around 200, with the 12, 48 and 670 going nearly 210. 6X is just over 200, and with exhaust work, a good head.

Bruce made his statements about valve size based on modern port "convention". Edelbrock also followed this convention when designing their head. The last version of "performance" heads from Pontiac also had the smaller exhaust valve.
Unfortunately, Pontiac exhaust ports don't recognize "convention". They are designed much more like a "flat head" port, and move the gasses differently than conventional ports. Pontiac engineers knew this, which is why ALL the "good" Pontiac heads have the 1.77 exhaust.
Due to the rediculous turn in the exhaust port, the sound wave cannot "see" the header. As a result, things get "jammed up" in the port. The larger valve does not supply a large increase in actuall CFM, but it does aid in the scavenging of the gasses and the "bounce" of the sound wave and vacuum signal. It definitely makes power.

The E-heads are quite good, and can be made to make BIG power. Jim Butler Performance offers the "big" E-heads (380 is the limit, they say, and that's their "wide port" version).

This was written before Tiger, the KRE D-port AND the KRE "High Port" heads were on the market. Things have changed a bit in the head department. You should SEE THEM TIGERS!!!

Dyno tests show a windage tray is worth up to 15 HP over no tray or scraper. This is true of most engine families. As for the "pool of oil", we drill a series of 5/16" holes down the center to expidite oil return.
We no longer use factory trays, as between metal fatigue and the pounding from racing, the stockers have been cracking and falling apart. We use the Milodon unit. There are a couple others out there. Canton is one.

Okay, RA, did I bite hard enough??!! It's okay. You can quote Elvis all day. His info WAS accurate (for the most part) when he wrote it. That was 8-10 years ago. Time, like everything else, marches on!

It is truly an exciting time to be a Pontiac guy! Watch for some serious stuff at PIP this year!

Jim

I was fishing :)

The
"ALL the "good" Pontiac heads have the 1.77 exhaust"

i'm not sure thats all that correct, now in my head it seems that the 1.77 is better, because it's "bigger" then the 1.66, but I have read that the 1.77 slows down the flow, causeing a "drop fallin into still water", your "sound wave" kinda thing.

I don't recall if what I read was for every day driveing, or HI-PO use. I see the logic in the 1.66 but then I look at BB and SB chevys with the saucer size valves working just fine. So why not 2.11 and 1.77?

It's funny you say cut/pasted, after looking at what I wrote I it does look like that, but what I wrote was from a pool of "head info" and i'm not sure if I forgot to put in what other people wrote in the books I collected or just picked out what he said? I wrote most of whats in my webpage about 4+ years ago as I have been in a job that kept me away for a while.

But it seems it's allwhat butler wrote, and the EDL heads factory and wide are not listed well, nor the KRE heads or the tiger heads.

You know with all the after market heads being made, why not a set of Micky T's Hemi heads? I have the Hot Rod hand book for Pontiac, I think it's 66 without looking and it has a nice section of MT Hemi Pontiac engine in his rail and well as his 4 bangers cut from 389's.

Why no hemi heads?

Elvis is the "bin laden of the Pontiac Community"

RA,

The cost factor is the reason for no hemi heads. In '70, Pontiac tested a SOHC 427 CID "hemi". There are pics of it on the cover of Hot Rod mag, March, 1970. They call it the "stillborn" Pontiac Hemi. According to the article, they only made 2. One was reported to be in George DeLorean's possession, but he would never cop to it. No one knows what happended to the other one.

The M/T engine was cool, alright. He couldn't get the timing belt to "live" (materials of the day were NOT what they are today...). And the 195s (4-cyls) were incredibly powerful for their size.

I had seen, word for word, almost ALL of what you typed. I assumed (always dangerous, and please forgive it) you just copied it over. Be VERY careful what information you accept as "bible" and what you challenge. As we have all learned, the "net" is a funny place, and many mistakes are out there being accepted as truth.

You and I had our differences here. That's okay. I applaud your posting of these "myths". I saw you put it over in the Chevy section, too. I would give up over there. They're more brand-loyal than most other groups, and they HATE Pontiac, as it infringes on their GM "superiority". They also get really pissed when they read Chapter 1 in Jim's book. They thought THEY were first... NOT!

Ztrain,

I was trying to be polite... He has a replacement. For a long time, he was the "red headed stepchild" of the Pontiac "community". Now, nobody pays him any mind. Same thing will happen to his replacement over there on PZ.
These guys just don't get it. You can't go around bad-mouthing everyone and everything (unless YOU sell it) you don't agree with, and expect people to take you seriously.

Jim

Mr. P,

As a rule to myself I take what anybody says waith a grain of salt.

The link I added was at the time printed by Butler in the late 90s. The fact back then was if you didnt turn down a 455 crank or make some crazy de stroked 428 crank in your 455 you just were not going to be the hot ticket.

That info is old, but it seems most people here don't have a clue about Pontiac engines "read BB Pontiac". I just wanted to cure some people from the voodoo or taboo about Pontiac engines.

Dew to my past "OD green" adventure I have not realy wanted to sit down and mess with my webpage, seems I have only added the SS stickers to my AussiGTO.

So many new and cool things for an engine that has not been made since 78 (78 was the last casting year) have come out it make one want to rid an organ for the resurrected ture king of Power.

I'm kinda sick like that, I love the underdog, and when I page threw my Jeggs or Summit book I get angry at the mass of SBC crap, this Chevy is old news, seen it done it, sick of it, SBCs in everything from dodge to ford, it's like AIDS and ..I just better stop before I offend any gay people.

< add in "Battle Hymn of the Republic" here >

I have read so much history about Deloren, he had to fight so hard for everything, and by God if he had gotten what he wanted the new vette may have had a "PMD" cast into it's engine. The Chevy guys don't even know they owe the beloved F body to Deloren!

When I read about MT trying over head cams on a 389, hemi heads, then to run at the salt flats! Chevy got the snot beat out of them in the 50's on the beachs in FL, and the blue tie got sent running to GM crying when the GTO came out.

The stuff he wanted, IFS rears, 4 wheel disks, RAM AIR 12 bolts with no C clips, air rides, super chargers, the list gos on, but I think what pisses me off the most is the fact that Chevy got all the good rods and cranks, and tho Arma Steel is good it's not as good as the forged stuff that was given to Chevy and in limited engines in Pontiacs that turned out to be more like rubber to the Arma Steel dew to crap forgings, I have seen forged pontiac rods with the seam/beam way off, it allmost look like a bad candy mold!

The fact is the Chevy hated it's sales and cars getting beat by the bread and butter chevy people to GM. Pontiac was cut down at it's high points by greed by Chevy, that just makes me come unglued inside.

I know it takes more molds to cast a Pontiac then a Chevy SB, I know that the machined heads take more work then a bastard cast Chevy head, but the interchange ability of the Pontaic engine is worth it, The Pontiac is the working mans engine with more refinements then any Chevy of it's time.

My jaw droped when I seen the new "AIR GAP" intakes for Chevy, some big idea, 5 mins with a Pontiac engine to any Chevy guy makes him rethink what he has, spark plug placement, no tube of Blue to seal the intake, no Dist remove for the intake, simple intake changes with to little cuts to the Pontiac intake, no "cam button", more trans options, and just more engine options to change around.

With the Edb heads more people did more stuff with Pontiac engines, People have no good reasons to put chevys into Pontiacs now, no reason, and people like Hot Rod and Car Craft and should not run carp on people who do that switch, and not only for Pontiac but out REAL sister engines Buick Olds and the late sister to dinner Caddy. Leno should rip that dam Chevy from that rare ass Olds and put in a OLDS engine, he took that super rare car and made a bastard out of it!! HE HADS LOTS OF MONEY AND HIS OWN SHOP!!!!!

Sure the tank engine in that car was cool, but if you can ship a WWII engine over the ocean you can call Morroeo (don't know the spelling) they have crate engines!

You know I don't race Pontaic power cars, I feel thats like fighing with your brother or sister I will race Olds and Buicks but I feel as if they are so far and few I don't want to see any of them kill and engine, so I go pick of the retarted Chevys, and pretty boy driveing fords and the reputable Dodge guys, it seems the dodge guys and Pontiac guys get along the best, is that me?

I can talk all day to a dodge guy, they seem to have some respect for Pontaics, maybe it was the 389's beating the hemis beacuse the hemis allways fowled plugs on the street, and the 389 was light and with 3 2s they just ran away before the Dodge could run it over.

I am True blue, but I know that the dodge blocks with it's crank center up in the block rather then at the bottom it's just a better engine!

Looks like I ranted long enough.....

Post Script, my book says the push rods to the rockers kept snaping or bending in the hemi Pontiac.

Must be the M/T hemi you speak of. The factory one was OHC and had no pushrods...

I've been carrying the "banner" for 35 years now. I had a GTO in the early '70s that BEAT UP on just about everything it raced. STILL couldn't get any respect. I DID lose BAD one night, to a '69 GTX (440 Magnum car). But the same night, took $50 from a 6-Pack Challenger (440, also).

Chevy guys get a bit miffed when they read the first chapter in Jim's book (the history class). They thought THEY were first... NOT! And to this day, no single engine has more dominated a full year of racing at the pro level, than the '62 421SDs did (35 of 36 "Cup" races, 24 NHRA National titles in SS and A/FX). I believe 1962 is the reason NASCAR slants the wind tunnel away from the Pontiac (which is why there are no more "Pontiac" Cup cars). It's also why NHRA is tough on them in the higher Stock and SS classes. That doesn't slow down Pete Biondo, though! He still makes it up the ladder every meet. The Angeles car is another that keeps them on their toes. John (now being driven by his daughter) was NHRA SS Champ in '96.

During my visit to Indy in '04, (US Nats), EVERY class in Stock and SS, that had a Pontiac entered, was won by a Pontiac. They have since "re-factored" many of those classes, to make it tougher for the Poncho. But it was clear, Pontiacs were absolutely the quickest/fastest cars in their class. Imagine my surprise... (only been telling people this since I was too young to drive)

Jim

when I was a kid my father had a 66 Bon conv with a tri power, it was the Frigadare white. The we got a 74 T/A with a 400, besides an Old Scout and a red hatch back gremlin and a 3 on a tree Green Ford truck I had unknown to me fallen in deep love with Pontiac, and my first car was a 72 Lux Lemans.

Blondie in the 8 track in the T/A, I would tell my mom to floor it, she told me one time that we didnt have the gas to do it, and I told her when she floors it we get more gas, as a kid I seen the gas guage go to the full side every time the car was usieng the 400, man I miss that car, and that ignorance of being young.