blowing gauges fuse...please help

My Camaro is an 89 with the 2.8 V6. Several months ago I spent a weekend working on it...installed a new MAF sensor and a VATS by-pass, and gave my car a good, long overdue detailing.:iceslolan
From that weekend on, I have had an intermittent short that blows my gauges fuse.:mad:
Its been driving me nuts:screwy:...I have been trying to use the process of enimination to find the problem, but at first the problem didnt occur very often...but since I had to pull out my gauges to change the headlight switch, the problem has been happening within the first five minutes of driving after I change the fuse, so it is not so intermittent anymore...the car drives fine without the fuse, but if I turn on my headlights when the fuse is blown, I hear the ring noise non-stop...Im refering to the warning ring that you hear if you leave your headlights on and open the door. So I have been unable to stand driving at night.
I have looked many times, but dont see any obvious shorts like cut/exposed wires(I fixed all wire exposures months ago thinking that they may be the problem, but obviously they werent)
I have tried using my wiring diagrams in my Haynes manual to halp me find the problem, but to no avail...:eek7:
I have owned this car for over four years, I have done all work myself, I used to say that no-one knows my car better than me...I hope I was wrong and that someone here knows what the problem could be.
Any advice, answers, ideas, or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Please dont be afraid to guess because my brain is fried, Im tired of guessing and being wrong:confused:
Thanks in advance

Bum switch? It sounds as if you have short to power in it and over loading

What do you mean "bum switch"? Which switch are you talking about? headlight switch?
I know that I need to change the headlight switch...and this time I am going to buy a new one, this one was used and the dash dimmer doesnt work, but that isnt powered by the gauges fuse, is it???

:disappoin Today I went through 4 fuses testing possible shorts, and was only electricuted once :banghead:

Here is my list of items I have checked thus far:
headlight switch and pigtail alternator and pigtail my VATS by-pass MAF sensor and pigtail MAF sensor relay and pigtail Oxygen sensor wire Cluster/gauges and pigtailsSo the short thats blowing the fuse isnt any of those.

Here are some of the observations I have made so far that may be relate to the short or may be coincidental...
The short always takes place between 2000 and 3000 RPMs The short always happens slightly before, during, or just after the shift into third gear...(automatic trans) I feel a slight hesitation when the short happens, but I think its because the computer looses contact with the MAF sensor when the short takes place, and then has to revert to defalt settings to compensate for the missing info...
Could it be the computer? Does the tranny use any electronic equipment or is it strictly mechanical? Am I loosing my mind? Sould I just pay a mechanic $90 an hour to look for the short? Will this ever end? Does anyone have any ideas?
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Sorry I'm not all that much of electrical guy, takes me a while myslef. Just this morning my VATS went nuts, shut the car off on me. Then whil checking underhood wiring, it went bonkers and locked the doors of course guess where the keys were? Shorted the damn thing out to get doors opened, ripped the module out, threw it on the ground, put it back in, everythings normal :D

Anyway, what about the gournds? If you remove them you should have circuit voltage at the tail end. The rpms are off the dizzy reference signal not the trans, which would only have the torque converter lock up switch and maybe a speed sensor on it, everything else is good ol vacuum.

Do you also have the vats mod from EcklersCamaro? Also, incase that happens again, I would recommend getting one of those magnitized key holders, putting a spare key in it, and finding a spot under your car to wedge it in(dont just rely on the magnet because it could fall off if you hit a big bump...guess how I know) :cwm27: The best place to put it would be the toe-hitch support(if you have a hitch) if you get one with a good magnet, you can put it anywhere, provided that the magnet is facing down(towards the ground), that way, it is just the magnets job to make shure the box doesnt slip, rather than to hold up the weight of the key and box.

Apperently you know more about the electricle system then I do, what is the "dizzy reference signal"? Is that the little yellow box screwed to the back of the cluster with 3 wires running behind the speedo??? :confused:

"Anyway, what about the gournds? If you remove them you should have circuit voltage at the tail end." Please explain what this means and its significance cause I dont understand :confused:

off topis, the VATS problem this morning, not on my Camaro, it's down for the winter. This was on my daily dirver that a friend of my wife returned a favor by having her kid 'who's an electronics wiz" install an aftermarket system that's crapped out in one way shape or form since it was put in. AND, it's on a Buick which has it's own slew of electrical problems since birth, but wife wanted the remote start. Everything was dead so I didn't expect the locks to spring to life the way they did and shouldn't have.

NOW, on topic. Sorry, dizzy = distributer. There are 3 connectors on the HEI dizzy, the 4 pin connector, "BAT" on the left front, which is battery power to the coi, and the TACH reference on the front right. Chances are the terminal connector there may be loose.

Circuit voltage, meant battery voltage in most cases. Now, if you take the ground wire off, you should see battery voltage 12 or more (+/- no more than .5 v) because in a open circuit there is no amperage flow and voltage is constent across the entire circuit. The best way to find a short is to open the circuit at ech possible point starting at the ground until amps = 0. When the amperage stops, the short is found.

HEI dizzy? Are you refering to the unit under the cap and roter?
Where should I measure the voltage flow? The fust or the conecters where I remove components?
...but wait, the short isnt constant, it only happens when Im driving, never when Im stoped, at idle, reverse, etc...The fuse doesnt blow when I put it in, it is fine until after I start driving...so how would I be able to find the short if it isnt constant? I dont see how this method would work in this case...or mabe Im just confused

HEI (high energy ignition) is the distributer's name in it's entirety.

I would be inclined to disconnect the tach wire on the side of the cap, the connector I was talking about. You mentioned it happened (the short) at so many RPMs, but I must have missed the association it must be driven to do so. Maybe that might help narrow things down?

I will try that this evening...

So what happened?

Yesterday was a busy day for me...lotz of stuff to do, including getting another box of 10amp fuses...
Im about to run to the bank now, but when I get home, I intend to divote todays house of daylight to this problem, and your suggestion will be the first thing I try.:iceslolan

So I just unplug that pigtail, test drive, and if the fuse doesnt blow then that means what? that I need a new distributer? That would suck, but at least I would know what the problem is.

I would be inclined to look for corrosion or chaffing on the wiring, burns. a physical short would be a beutiful thing, easy to find, easy to fix. Especially since you have 12v sitting right there at the other side of the terminal.

An internal short (failed coil or something - example only, not saying it is!) would suck cause you'd have to find it.

finding it would not be a problem...my uncle owns a salvage yard, which has come in useful many times:smile:

There were two bats on the passenger side of the dizzy, the one on the left had two wires comeing from it that go to the coil. The one on right had 3 or 4 and I could not see where they go, so I disconnected the one on the right, but the car wouldnt start so I reconnected it and made shure both bats were on tight, tried to test and the fuse did blow again, but it was a bit longer after the shift into third than usual and I would sware I heard a "tick" when the fuse went...never heard/noticed that sound when the fuse blew previously.
Seemed to origionate somewhere in the dash. What could it be? One of the needles on the gauges slapping down after the short, the sound of the fuse blowing, or a relay perhaps?

I know its wishful thinking but I hope it was a relay in the dash(or mabe on the firewall just infront of the dash on the drivers side?).
If it was a relay, then that could be the cause of the problem because I dont think any relays are suposed to beguin opperation at that time, at least not any in the dash. Air conditioning, headlights, and radeo were all off, so it couldnt have been a relay for one of them, right?

So what do you think? Did I try to disconnect the wrong bat, or could I be on to something with the relay idea?

By the way, I just won an extra computer for my camaro on ebay, there hasnt been a 2.8 v6 at my uncles salvage yard since I got my camaro.
With all the electricle shorts, I thought it might be a good precaution since the computers are sensitive to begin with.
O could the problem be the computer?

I am very grateful for all the help you have been giving me wrightz28, it realy helps to have another perspective.:smile:

No prob.

Now, since disconnecting a wire changed the conditionthat it occurs, then we're on to something. Yes, if it didn't start after disconnecting, then you grabbed the thicker s/b red wire which is battery power to the coil and thus you had no spark. I'm wondering if there's some crud up in the connector right there, disconnect the other one an dtry again.

Alright, I backed up and reread some stuff here. I'm not sure how the Torque converter clutch operation is set up, I believe it is matched off RPM for so long then the ECM engages the lockup function on the trans (fuel mileage). You said you detatiled the car? Did this include a pressure wash spraying under the car?

OK STOP!

i looked up a wiring diagram, the VSS (vehicle speed sensor) is on the fuse!!! Also the audio alarm assembly (key buzzer). Even more oddly sharing the cicruit is the MAF relay, you mentioned the problem started since the weekend you worked on the MAF? I'm trying to upload the diagram.

edit-upload not working, i'm around for another half hour, IM your e-mail and Ill send it off to you.

figured it out?

i looked up a wiring diagram, the VSS (vehicle speed sensor) is on the fuse!!! Also the audio alarm assembly (key buzzer). Even more oddly sharing the cicruit is the MAF relay, you mentioned the problem started since the weekend you worked on the MAF? I'm trying to upload the diagram.

edit-upload not working, i'm around for another half hour, IM your e-mail and Ill send it off to you.[/quote]

No...I havent found it yet, but I have crossed a few more possibilities off the list.
I know it isnt the MAF, or its relay, the fuse still blew when those were disconnected.
The VSS? Is that a problem?
My email is my user name, just add @yahoo.com
I think the Key buzzer is also wired into the headlight circuit because when the gauges fuse is blown, and the headlights are on, the key buzzer sounds continuously.
I cleaned the electricle connections on the coil, no differrence.
I dont think that a delay in the short means we are getting closer, because I am leaving various things disconnected so I can check them off as not being the cause of the problem, so there is less strain on the fuse, I think thats why the fuse goes, the short must be drawing more and more power as time goes on, and eventually it is pulling too much and blows the fuse.
So I can disconnect everything that is supposed to draw power from the fuse and it will still blow, it will just take a little longer.
I never did get around to pressure washing the underbody that day...ran out of daylight.
Where is the VSS located?

I cleaned the electricle connections on some relays in the engine compartment...no difference.
I repaired a ground that a rat had chewed halfway through...no difference.
I tried insulting my car...no difference.
I dont know how much more of this I can take :banghead:

My uncle is going to try and help me find the problem but I need to wait till he has time...Il post our results after we figure out what is going on, but it could be as long as a week and a half until he has time to help me, so if anyone has any ideas in that time, Il try 'em, if not...then we will see...

The EGR solenoid is also on that circuit. I had a short at the connector for the solenoid that kept blowing my ins fuse. I cut the power wire going to the connector to verify that it was the problem, then got a new connector and spliced it in.

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff on that fuse. I got curious when I noticed the MAF was there and you were just working on it. Morley's idea is about the only way I can think, one by one elimate as many circuits as possible until the excess amperage is gone.

The diagram I sent you i downloaded a long time ago, not sure from where, there's a link off thirdgen.org for diagrams and autozone online under repair manuals sometimes has some but they are pretty basic.

How should I go about checking the EGR solenoid?

How should I go about checking the EGR solenoid?
It isn't the solenoid itself, but the connector for it on the harness shorting internally. If you have a weather pack pin extractor, disconnect the solenoid, find the power wire (pink I think) and remove the pin from the connector. Try another ins fuse and take it for a spin. If it doesn't blow, you've found it.

It isn't the solenoid itself, but the connector for it on the harness shorting internally...find the power wire (pink I think)

Disconnected to connecter and cut the Pink/black wire...that wasnt the problem:banghead:
Now I need to go fix that wire.:crying:
Anymore ideas?
Anyone?

Did you ever look into the VSS (vehicle spped sensor)? Since it only does it a certain point of operation. Grounds on the back of the cylinder heads are clean an tight?

There was no way to adjust the size of the diargram? That would really be of help I think.

Actually I forgot to ask about that...Is the sensor in my camaro(89) supossed to be mounted on the tranny or incorporated into the cluster(little yellow box mounted on back)?
If its on the tranny, then I havnt checked it yet.
Adjusting size of diagram didnt help, but was kind of able to guess what it said.

Today I tried my new spare computer, works good but that wasnt the problem...Tomorrow evening I am going to get help from my Uncle, hopefully we will be able to find it in a couple of hours...
He wants to put a 25A or 30A breaker on inplace of the 10A fuse so after a few minutes we can kill power and simply feel around all the wire harnesses... when we get close to the short, the wires will fell hot. Hopefully we will be able to find the short this way.

He wants to put a 25A or 30A breaker on inplace of the 10A fuse so after a few minutes we can kill power and simply feel around all the wire harnesses... when we get close to the short, the wires will fell hot. Hopefully we will be able to find the short this way.

We didnt end up doing that after-all...He had an idea, we checked it, and he was right...
It was the CONVERTER CONTROL SOLENOID in the transmission. I was only at his house for about an hour and a half, and most of the time we were talking about his 1914 Studebaker...
Well to fix the problem, I will have to drop the pan and replace the solenoid, hopefully I will be able to get it done within a couple weeks.
Thanks to everyone who tried.

:crying: :banghead: :swear: :crying: :banghead: :swear: :crying: :banghead: :swear: :crying: :banghead: :swear: :crying: :banghead: :swear: :crying: :banghead: :swear: :crying: :banghead: :swear: :crying: :banghead: :swear: :crying: :banghead: :swear:


My trans was still under warenty so they did the work for free...changed the internal harness and the converter control solenoid (eventhough it was only out of speck by 0.2 ohms) and it still blows the fuse!!!!!!!!!!! When the solenoid engages, nonfail, the fuse blows!!!
The guys at the shop were nice enough to trace the wiring that goes to the trans as far as they could, and check it too, its ok. They even printed off a really nice wiring diagram off of alldata and showed it to me, pointing out that several things are connected to one of the wires that come FROM the trans, and the took a quick look at some of them, but didnt find the problem...it was only a quick courtesy check that they werent required, expected, or even asked to do... I was suprised that they even tried to help beyond what they were responsible for. I saw the wiring diagram he had printed off of the computer(long before they even called me to come pick the car up). It was very intricate and I know it would be helpful to have it and asked if I could have a cope...the answer was no. They said they pay over $300 a month to have access to these diagrams and are not allowed to share them...as if alldata was watching there every move.

Does anyone have these diagrams, or made diagrams from another company that you could fax or email to me...please:icesangel :1zhelp: :icesangel

BTW: The tranny shop is LEONS TRANSMISSION SERVICES and I highly recommend their work.:grinyes:

You can open your own Alldata online account.....

Also, check ebay out for mitchell catalog cd roms.

While it was at LEON'S, they opened the main engine harness in the corner of the engine compartment(right infront of the driver) and found about 6 wires whose inselation had been cut to expose the wire inside and one black/white wire that had been cut, completely and every wire in the harness had a pinhole in it for testing. It would appear someone had been looking for a short of somekind in the past...when they found this, they decided they had done enough and wernt going to mess with anything else(I guess this mess kind of scared them:uhoh:) I followed the cut wire and found that it was one of the two wires to the power steering pressure sensor. Well I repaired all the exposed wires and found the other end of the Black/white wire and did a quick solder fix and wrapped it with electricle tape because I figured this fix may be temporary if fixing this severed wire causes other problems (if it had been cut for a good reason).
Well the gages fuse still blows and I havent noticed any problems resulting from fixing that wire.

So does anyone have any new ideas as to the cause of this problem? I figure it would have to be something that eather draws power, or sends a signal, through the trans harness and only does so when the solenoid engages. But I cant think of anything that would do that.:dunno: