which is faster? Auto? Manual?

hey guys.. l know to drive manual is so fun. and l hate auto. but mine is auto:(

l was talking to someone about it and l would like to talkt o u guys too..

which is faster? auto or manual? from a dig which would win? auto or manual (same power car and good drivers.)

l heard that drag racing, rally and formula 1 carss are automatic too but shiftable.

now it is your turn, which is faster?

Auto.
As long as it has a stall.

l guess so too..

theres many variables. some auto tranny's lose more power through them. Really depends how fast you are going. in a streetable car i'm gonna say the manual will be better for more power and faster shifts, but if you have a nasty drag car with a built tranny its gonna shift way faster then you ever could in a manual car. so assuming your car isn't a strict drag car that runs 9's i am going with the manual

well, l didnt ask for myself.. just for more aknowledge on cars.. general..

lets say 2 trans- am same power, they both have good driver. one is auto, another is manual.. if they would race half mile from dig, who would win? auto or manual? (CARS ARE BONE STOCK)

If they are bone stock...it would be close. But more than likely if the manual driver can shift decent the manual car would win.

For the auto car to be faster it would take no more than a good stall converter.
in a streetable car i'm gonna say the manual will be better for more power and faster shifts, but if you have a nasty drag car with a built tranny its gonna shift way faster then you ever could in a manual car.
I kinda disagree.
Like you mentioned....many variables.
But the biggest one....the shifting.
An auto will not screw up a shift. Built up or not, the auto is a more consisent shifting tranny.
A manual car requires the driver to shift at the required shift points. Sometimes the driver does not know the correct RPM to shift, or maybe they miss a shift....

overall, on a full-drag car auto + good stall = better than manual...but... id rather have a manual than my auto :(

This is one of those arguements I tend to get into.

I love my manual, and wouldn't trade it for anything.
BUT....If I did anymore drag racing than I already do, I would want an auto.

whatever happens l dont care..

my next all cars will be manual.. like my previous cars.. l had auto.. l hate it...

autos are cool , but thats not me...

true, automatics are more consistant, but with a lot of cars that are automatic they shift much earlier then the proper points. maybe 3 out of 5 auto cars i get in don't even shift at redline unless you manually shift the auto holding the gear longer. also with stock automatic trannys they don't shift fast or hard where in a manual car you can shift hard and fast. i do agree that its harder to be good at shifting a manual consistantly. another thing i like about manual cars at the drag strip is the ability to pick the RPM's you launch at. in an auto car with a stock tranny all you can do is stab the gas or power brake, which many times you can only power brake to maybe 2k max. the way i see it is if your drag racing your gonna want a manual car unless your gonna build the auto. in other words a built auto is better then a manual in drag racing in my opinion.

Greatest reason i like manuals better then autos is because i enjoy having controll overt he car when i'm racing and feeling what its doing and auto lose more power through the drivetrain then manuals. manual cars normally dyno higher and put down more power. so if you take the same car one in auto and one in manual. the manual car will be faster at the track. next time your at the track take notice of certain cars i've noticed that most auto's are at least two tenths slower then there manual forms.

yeah, i like manual > auto, heck i learned to drive in a standard... but..my formula redline-shifts :D hahaha i tried :)

l got automatic too and my formula shifts exactly on 6000 PRM.. that is the best place l guess..

.
Greatest reason i like manuals better then autos is because i enjoy having controll overt he car when i'm racing and feeling what its doing and auto lose more power through the drivetrain then manuals. manual cars normally dyno higher and put down more power. so if you take the same car one in auto and one in manual. the manual car will be faster at the track. next time your at the track take notice of certain cars i've noticed that most auto's are at least two tenths slower then there manual forms.

I don't know what tracks you go to, but the ones I have gone too all have "modded" cars racing.

Ever been in a car with a 3500+ torque converter and a 2.5+ STR? Ever been in such a car when they rip a 1.7 or better 60' time? Ever see such a car flash to 3500+ rpm's and then have a 4800 or better rpm shift extension? Ever see such a car miss a shift or shift early?

stalled Autos rule at the drag strip. M6's just can not compete with big torque converters, trans brakes, shift kits, ect. Next time you're at the track, take notice to what transmissions are in the single digit cars. You'll find most are autos.

Here is a good ET database for LS1 based vehicles. The top 20 ET's have 17 autos to only 3 manuals. And none of those three manuals are in the top ten. There is a reason for that.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/etdb.php

Road courses are another story. There the M6's rule. That and on dynos :iceslolan

You should reread what i wrote of coarse a car with a high stall and tranny break is gonna launch better and be consistant. everyone knows that. i hope. the cars at the drag strip i go to that are drag only cars are pulling better then 1.7's too. heck i pulled 1.8's in my Cobra with drag radials. stock auto tranny's suck in my opinion though and you can take any production car and it will be faster at the drag strip in manual trim. like i said before, and what you repeated, BUILT auto's are a different story.

For example, if i had my choice between a camaro with the 6 speed or a built, higher stall/shift kit/ tranny brake, auto then i'd choose the auto, but if i had to choose between a camaro with a 6 speed or a stock auto then i'd choose the stick.

You should reread what i wrote of coarse a car with a high stall and tranny break is gonna launch better and be consistant. everyone knows that. i hope. the cars at the drag strip i go to that are drag only cars are pulling better then 1.7's too. heck i pulled 1.8's in my Cobra with drag radials. stock auto tranny's suck in my opinion though and you can take any production car and it will be faster at the drag strip in manual trim. like i said before, and what you repeated, BUILT auto's are a different story.

For example, if i had my choice between a camaro with the 6 speed or a built, higher stall/shift kit/ tranny brake, auto then i'd choose the auto, but if i had to choose between a camaro with a 6 speed or a stock auto then i'd choose the stick.

And if I had to choose between a M6 LS1 with aftermarket shifter and clutch or a LS1 A4 with aftermarket torque converter and trans cooler then I would take the A4 any day of the week and twice on TnT night. If I had to choose between a stock M6 and a stock A4 I would still pick the A4 and put a TCI or Fuddle 3500 stall in it. The stock 4L60E is not a great transmission by any stretch but don't down play it too much. Alot of guys run 11's and have 3500-4000 stalls and are still running on thier 4L60E. Now there are even people in the high 9's with a rock-on built 4L60E.

My opinion stands and so does the ET database I linked above. Auto + stall > Manual + clutch in the 1/4 mile. You can argue about stock for stock all day long but it won't change these three facts:

1). F-bodies havn't been produced since 2002 so there are no new ones running around on the street.

2). 3-8 years is a lot of time for people to mod these cars (even more for LT1's).

3). Almost everyone who races at a drag strip has some mods even if it's just as simple as a lid and cutout.

You'd be very hard pressed to find a stock M6 and a stock A4 at the same track on the same day. I've never seen it. Everyone I ever talk to has at least a lid and catback. Many have alot more then that (myself included).

I give Manuals props for all the areas they rule which includes auto courses, highways, gas mileage and even "fun factor". But no one has ever nor ever will take the A2/A3/A4 superiority away at the 1/4 mile or the local red light nearest you.

I hate these type threads. Actually I hate all threads with which is better in the tittle. Or looking for a answer like that in the tittle. There is no clear winner as others have said. Each have there advantages. The auto is more consistant and will usually yield better 1/4 times and dead stop acceleration when equipped with similiar gears to a similiar modded manual. While the stick will yield better dyno numbers from lack of drivetrain loss and will be able to hit higher speeds than a auto cause of the extra power getting to the wheels and fun factor most definetly goes to the stick. The auto has its advantage 1/4 track wise do to eliminating driver error and the 4l60-e's awesome first gear and the computers ability to shift at peak times to keep you within your power band. While when a auto is equipped with things like a shift kit and higher stall converter. The launch and firm fast shifts can be nearly untouchable with a stick.

everything your saying is completely what i said. pay attention. i agree with you that auto's are better! only thing i'm saying is stock auto's suck. that means no mods just so you know. and no not everyone has a built tranny. saying that you know for a fact that everyone around has a built tranny is just retarded. i can name 5 ppl that i personally know that run at NYIRP that are fairly fast and haven't even touched there trannies. there are other classes that run at drag strips besides gutted,big blocked,roll caged, race gased cars.

You can't make a blanket statement like that. All stock auto's suck. Cause thats not true. Fact is that the 4L60-E in stock form is a awesome tranny. It is programmed to shift at redline in stock form to keep you within your power band. It also has a increased fluid pressure mode when under heavy throttle to deliver firmer shifts not to mention its 3.06 first gear. This is why a 3.23 equipped auto will run faster stock times than a 3.42 equiped stick.

PS- watch the pay attention comment. Did you see a reply to your message in my post?. I was making a blanket comment on the topic. Not related your post.

my previous post was intended for the other guy

everything your saying is completely what i said. pay attention. i agree with you that auto's are better! only thing i'm saying is stock auto's suck. that means no mods just so you know. and no not everyone has a built tranny. saying that you know for a fact that everyone around has a built tranny is just retarded. i can name 5 ppl that i personally know that run at NYIRP that are fairly fast and haven't even touched there trannies. there are other classes that run at drag strips besides gutted,big blocked,roll caged, race gased cars.

I did pay attention. That's why I replied to your derogatory comments in the first place. Now let me rebutt some of the derogatory remarks you made in this post.

1). Stock autos do NOT suck. Not all of them anyway. The Mustang autos are often referred to as slush boxes and are far slower then thier manual counterparts. I might agree that those autos suck. But the 4L60E LS1's have a fairly decent auto tranny. I have heard of many 01/02 models hitting very low 13's stock. My boss has a 2002 Lexus SC430 with a five speed auto that kicks pretty nice butt in it's own rights. Then there was an episode of cribs where Vince Neil was showing off his cars that included a Ferarri that had a selector to go from manual to auto. That car and tranny was friggin sweet. Point is not all autos suck.

2). You don't need a built tranny to run relatively fast. You only need a bigger torque converter, trans cooler and in some cases TM deleted from your computer. All of which can be done for less then a thousand dollars if you buy a less expensive brand like TCI or Fuddle.

3). I never said everyone I know has a built tranny. I said everyone I have SEEN has some mods. By mods I don't necassarily mean anything drivetrain related. Drag radials, lids, catbacks, CAI's, ect all constitute as mods. So to see a stock F-body race another stock F-body is a rare thing that I may never see in my lifetime. Even the potential 2009 Camaro would not be on the F-body platform from what I hear.

4). I know alot of people also who do not have gutted cars, roll cages, race gas, ect. We seem to have a difference of opinion on what we both consider a "built tranny". My definition of a built 4L60E is one you buy from Rossler, Rock-on, Speed-inc or whoever else that has upgraded various internal parts so it can handle 400+ rwhp. Just adding an aftermarket torque converter, shift kit/pcm tune and trans cooler is NOT a built tranny IMO because it does not allow the trans to handle more power. All they do is make the stock tranny more effective at keeping you in your powerband, shift a little crisper and compensate for the extra heat 3000+ stalls cause.

All stock auto transmissions do not suck. Stock 4L60E's do not even suck. Stock torque converters do suck but for less then a grand you can have a mean launching, sweet shifting, kick arse shift extending machine. Always assuming you have sticky tires. The first time I tried to launch on street tires with a 3500/2.5 str converter was not pretty. But it would have made John Force proud :grinyes:

i think you took this auto thing far from the origin of this thread. Even if it is hard to find two stock f-bodies a good comparison can still be made in even moded form. i mean if you took a moded auto camaro and a moded 6 speed camaro the 6 speed camaro's gonna be faster in my opinion until you reach a point of power and speed that i don't think the guy who made this thread is gonna reach. heres a real life experience. i have one friend with a 98 moded ls1 with an auto and another with a 98 with the 6 speed. both had simular mods and the 6 speed car was consistantly faster. i mean when ppl talk about shifting fast and what not theres really a limit to how fast the transmission can get into that gear regardless of manual or auto. its not like if you got the flash to shift your car it would be way faster. for most ppl it isn't hard to shift fast and consistantly. at least for myself it isn't. when i owned my cobra i ran consistantly and i was way faster then other cobras at the track that were auto.

You were faster than the other cobra's cause Ford never learned how to build a decent auto. I raced a member of this site with a 6 speed and similiar power levels to mine and I beat him, badly.

i think you took this auto thing far from the origin of this thread.

I don't think so. You made comments that I disagree with and I debated each comment just as I am about to do again now. It's still ontopic of the auto vs manual and faster vs quicker.

Even if it is hard to find two stock f-bodies a good comparison can still be made in even moded form.

Sure it can. But here is something you simply refuse to accept. A4 LS1 + 3500 (or bigger) stall > M6 in the 1/4 mile. If all other mods are equal the A4 will win that race. Not because it's faster (M6 will still trap higher), but because it's quicker (A4 will rip out of the hole and gain more ground in the first 1/8 mile then the M6 can reel back in the second 1/8 mile).


i mean if you took a moded auto camaro and a moded 6 speed camaro the 6 speed camaro's gonna be faster in my opinion until you reach a point of power and speed that i don't think the guy who made this thread is gonna reach.

Not true. Torque converter and maybe some drag radials are all you need to beat a M6 at the track. If he keeps the stock torque converter then I would agree with your statement.


heres a real life experience. i have one friend with a 98 moded ls1 with an auto and another with a 98 with the 6 speed. both had simular mods and the 6 speed car was consistantly faster.

The auto guy needs a torque converter then to reverse that role. Again this will make him quicker, not actually faster. M6 still would win a half mile race but NOT the 1/4 mile and certainly not the 1/8 mile.


i mean when ppl talk about shifting fast and what not theres really a limit to how fast the transmission can get into that gear regardless of manual or auto. its not like if you got the flash to shift your car it would be way faster. for most ppl it isn't hard to shift fast and consistantly. at least for myself it isn't. when i owned my cobra i ran consistantly and i was way faster then other cobras at the track that were auto.

Again I completely disagree. I think most people are "good drivers". A small percentage are horrible and a small percentage are "expert". Let me give you an example of what I mean.

Most of us have heard the famous run Evan Smith did in a stock M6 LS1. The famous 12.8 ET in stock trim has been talked about since the day it happened. Obviously he is an expert driver so we will use 12.8 as the absolute best.

Most M6 guys in stock LS1's were running 13.0-13.5 with a few dipping into 12.9's. Bad drivers were hitting 14's. I'm talking about the guys who shift at 5,000 rpm's, say "what?" if you mention speed shifting and often miss a shift or grind gears.

If everyone was as great of a driver as you implied then for me to have seen several 12.8-13.1 runs a few years back would have been a general occurance. It wasn't. Most were low to mid 13's and alot of them had at least a lid. I was running neck and neck with many lid and catback M6's back then(and I was a consistent 13.5) because most people were NOT expert shifters or willing to speed shift/power shift.

This is not a difficult concept. If you have a M6 then get a shifter and clutch. If you have an A4 get a torque converter and tranny cooler. If you want to be faster on the highway and road courses then get the M6. If you want to be quicker at the 1/8 and 1/4 mile then get the A4.

i agree, but i don't honestly see how the auto becomes quicker just having a 3500 stall? i mean i can shift at 3500 in a m6. i think it goes back to being an expert driver in the m6 and being able to launch at 3500 affectivly. see the way i view this is that the automatics are easier to drive good, but it isn't impossible to drive the m6 t\just as good. however i feel once your making insane power like 800hp then it's time to switch to a auto. thats just what i think, doesn't mean its right.

i agree, but i don't honestly see how the auto becomes quicker just having a 3500 stall? i mean i can shift at 3500 in a m6. i think it goes back to being an expert driver in the m6 and being able to launch at 3500 affectivly. see the way i view this is that the automatics are easier to drive good, but it isn't impossible to drive the m6 t\just as good. however i feel once your making insane power like 800hp then it's time to switch to a auto. thats just what i think, doesn't mean its right.

The reason the 3500 stall works so well is that it bypasses all the lower rpm's where the LS1 engine makes minimal torque. All the good LS1 torqur is 4000-6000 rpm range. This is why they have that reputation for being monsters on the highway. Once you hit third gear (4th for manuals) they spend all thier time in the upper rpm ranges.

Basically when I launch my engine flashes to 3500 rpm (my stall speed). I can launch extremly hard due to my verters higher STR which is set at 2.5 (stall torque ratio). Now the shift extension is at 4800 rpm's so once my transmission shifts into second it drops down to 4800 and pulls up to 6200 again (my shift point). Then again it drops down to 4800 and I usually cross the traps at 5500 or so in third gear.

Stock M6's are usually 3-4 tenths faster then stock autos with decent drivers. Torque converters are usually good for a .5-.7 gain. Closer to .5 if they remain on street tires and .7 if they up to drag radials which many will do.

So when I race a M6 with same mods as me accept it's my converter vs his newer clutch the race is like this. I pull out ahead of him with a better 60' (due to a 2.5 STR), gain a little more ground as I hit second because my shift extention is high and he has to shift sooner then I do. Now if the M6 is a good driver then he is at this point starting to reel me in. The problem he now has is he has to shift 2 more times and my car only once while hitting that high shift extention. If Evan Smith is racing me then there is a very good chance I might still lose or even tie. But for 95% of the drivers out there I win by a solid 2 tenths.

The problem bolt-on M6 guys have in this bolt-on vs bolt-on race is they have to do three things to even have a chance at winning. One is a perfect launch on a high rpm clutch dump (puts 10 bolt at serious rick), power shift (puts clutch at risk) and shift perfectly (no misses). Many either can not or will not do all three.

But I do agree with you 100% that stock for stock the M6 wins every time with a good driver. My point was always that you only need a torque converter, drag radials and some launching practice to turn that table to your advantage. But this only works from a dig. Racing an M6 of equal mods on the highway is still an A4 loss regardless of what converter you have because the drivetrain loss now plays a major role.

good point. i dunno why so many auto cars are so much slower at my track then. hope i'll do good in my formula(auto). i'm new to auto's. every fast car i've owned has been a stick. i have a question for you. i'm building a 400 small block on the side thati'm gonna be putting in my car. it's gonna be fairly agressive and i'm hoping to make 350whp +. so my question is will my auto tranny with a trans go shift kit and higher stall be able to handle that power or do i need to beef up the tranny?

good point. i dunno why so many auto cars are so much slower at my track then.

If I had to guess, I would say it's because most are either still on the stock torque converter and or have not perfected launching on a higher stall one. My first few passes on a 3500 stall with a 2.5 STR were ugly. And when I say ugly I'm being very kind as I did so bad a Yugo might have beaten me in the other lane. It's one thing to have a car capable of certain times but another to actually get them. But with stickier tires and practice I got alot better. Most of them will too......eventually.


hope i'll do good in my formula(auto). i'm new to auto's. every fast car i've owned has been a stick. i have a question for you. i'm building a 400 small block on the side thati'm gonna be putting in my car. it's gonna be fairly agressive and i'm hoping to make 350whp +. so my question is will my auto tranny with a trans go shift kit and higher stall be able to handle that power or do i need to beef up the tranny?

What tranny are we talking about? If it's a 4L60E then the answer is yes it should hold that no problem. Anything under 400 rwhp is usually gonna last awhile if not badly abused. It's 400 and up when these 4L60E's die faster then Paris Hilton can run to a camera :grinyes:

Personally I would go with either a Rossler or Rock-on built 4L60E for anything in the 400-550 rwhp range. Anything above that I wouldn't even bother with anything less then a TH350/TH400 Transmission with T-brake.

His car has a 700r4 not a 4l60-e but they are basically the same tranny, just the 700r4 isn't electronically controlled shifts.

yea 700r4. the 400 used to have a manual tranny hooked to it so i guess i need a flexplate that is for a the 700r4.

yea 700r4. the 400 used to have a manual tranny hooked to it so i guess i need a flexplate that is for a the 700r4.

yea 700r4. the 400 used to have a manual tranny hooked to it so i guess i need a flexplate that is for a the 700r4.

I'm not really an expert on the 700r4. But what I have read suggests it's about the same strength and reliability as the 4L60E. So I don't see why 350 whp would be anything it couldn't handle. Good luck with that project.