twincharging, twinturbo, fast spooling, high end power???

ok, i'm sure theres a few threads concerning these things but i only have specific questins and i can be searching for every little thing so here are my issues:

i read alot about twincharging and havent heard anything constructive, most of the technicians that specialize in forced induction say the tuning, the clutch system on the sc and the sequentials havent been perfected, even hks' system has it flaws. if anyone can convince me that twin charging is safe, easy, and the pain is worth the pleasure of (an unproven) significantly quicker 0-60 and horsepower crawling somewhere above 700hp... go head. i read about an sti that had a sc/tt setup but at 20psi it was only at about 480hp.
i need to here good things before i consider it

my next subject is on twin turboing my car. this i've fabricated before but i'm not worldly informed on the best turbos, i usuassaly use t3/t4s. but with hybrids and no name companys coming up from the bottom i'd like to know more from the enthusiast. money aside, tuning aside, knowledge aside: i need first the fastest spooling turbo and a second safe yet big turbo for high end boost

i'm looking to get as much boost between 1400-7500rpms as possible, something with almost instant pull. i'm not looking for excessive boost. at 8-11psi i'll only be sitting at around 450hp but i want as instant boost as possible.

i know you experts have your dream setups, let me know what you know - thanks in advance for all your help : adam

with twin charing im assumeing you mean a supercharger feeding into a tubro feeding into the engine. It isnt so much that it spools faster, its that the supercharger takes care of boost untill the turbo spools, the drag of the supercharger is then removed and the turbo takes over boost completely.

Good in theory but im not sure it is worth the headaches.

The other thing you may be talking about is sequincal turbocharging, such as on the RX-7 TT.

This is where a smaller, faster spooling, turbo feeds into a larger turbo untill the larger turbo spools and the nthe waste gate for the 1st turbo is opened almost completely so that the 2nd, larger, turbo is taking care of all of the flow.

This works great but has its HP limitations due to the fact thatthe 1st turbo is in the way of the 2nd turbo. This is why RX-7 Enthusiasts recocmend doing a true twin set up or a single large set up on the 13BTT once you pass around the 400hp mark.

for twin charging you need to make sure that the turbo and supercharger provide the same ammount of flow. it really doesn't give you that much increase in performance unless you notice significant turbo lag, and even then, it could just be an improperly designed system. unles you're pushing something rediculus like 30psi it's not worth it.

As for the spooling effect, i think with the turbo feeding into the supercharger the supercharger does make the turbo spool up faster because it's sucking more than the turbo is providing so it's forcing the turbo to spin faster.

The only practical application for a twincharging system i can think of would be for a diesel that is running alot of boost and wants to make use of the extra fuel that could be burnt while the turbo's spooling up. that's only if it's running alot of boost.

Sequential setups aren't as feasable as they used to be because of ball bearing turbos. with ball bearings, the turbos spool alot faster and there isn't nearly as much lag as before. also, at high engine speeds, the sequential system isn't as efficient as one large turbo because of the restriction caused by the first one. the other issue is weight. all the extra piping and stuff does add weight, not much but more than a normal setup, and every bit counts when you're racing.

if I were you, I'd go for the turbo that wil provide you with the ammount of boost you need without too much lag, if you plan on running 8-11psi you won't notice much lag unless you're starting from a dead stop or you downshift to accelerate, and even then, once you shift into a higher gear, there won't be any noticeable lag there. simplicity is key if you don't know exactly what you're doing or know the ins and outs of a turbo system, because if something goes wrong in a complex system, there's so much more to check as opposed to a simple system where it's only going to be a few things.

Yea dude go turbo, there is more power to be had and with the boost pressures you are looking for lag will be almost non exitant, and if you ever want to get rid of any trace of lag and get your RPMs up faster you can always add a small shot of NOS nothing big around a 35hp shot alot of street racers do that to insure they can spool their turbos as fast as they can hit a button. There are some nice bolt on supercharger kits out there but you would have to drop your CR to reach 11psi on most engie blocks, except those that were designed for it.. As far as your twin setup goes it has been done of course, and it does work well for drag racing, but by time you go through all the headaches of setting up th first street car to use it you could have made a bas a$$ turbo system that beats it every whichway you want to look at it. Anyway there is my :2cents: have fun:)

BTW you could make your dream car really quick, just go out and buy a MklV supra with twin sequential turbos (aka one spools up then the other one kicks in), they spool VERY quick, and I have seen them make 450hp on the stock turbos with some mods to the heads, exaust, boost controler, ECU, and intercooler. That is the fastest cheapest way to build the car you are describing.

Yea dude go turbo, there is more power to be had and with the boost pressures you are looking for lag will be almost non exitant, and if you ever want to get rid of any trace of lag and get your RPMs up faster you can always add a small shot of NOS nothing big around a 35hp shot alot of street racers do that to insure they can spool their turbos as fast as they can hit a button.
http://www.westcoast6s.com/photos/albums/userpics/10006/thumb_tfatf_nitrous.jpg

sorry, i had to do it. NOS is a company (Nitrous Oxide Systems) N2O, nitrous oxide, or nitrous, is the gas used for a performance increase in vehicles, and as laughing gas.

sorry, i had to do it. NOS is a company (Nitrous Oxide Systems) N2O, nitrous oxide, or nitrous, is the gas used for a performance increase in vehicles, and as laughing gas.
LOL I know but it is faster than typing nitrous oxide LOL

thanks to everyone for theyre input.

i have two cars right now that i'm in the process of boosting. my frst car is a 5spd. soon to be 6spd. 3.9l mustang. i was looking for a twin setup as described where one turbo spools quicker and the other takes over at higher rpms.

twincharging is just a "hobby" of mine. i'm a technician and after seeing a few cars on the web like the sc/tt subaru sti and the one or two skyline engines i've seen with a similar setup i have become captivated by the idea of force fed turbos.

i do have a good amount of time and money on my hands (sportscars are kindof my achilles heel.) i am also currently working on a 3rd gen. RX7 . i was delayed financially with the mustang but will soon go back to this to drop in a 20b motor and after i fabricate and swap - i'll be most likely boosting that aswell.

i've never been to into "nos". i hate to eat my own words and forgive me if i'm wrong but i feel Nitrous oxide is cheap horsepower, little to no skill involved. as you said - alot of "street racers" do this- . the man who created this system is very brilliant but it just seems too unsafe for me. with the money and effort i put into every one of my cars i would never risk it.

Please whatever you do do not attempt to turbocharge the mustangs V6 bad engine to work with for 300+hp, good low end torque, good street engine, but not good at all for making the kind of hp the puts a grin on your face, save yourself alot of effort and alot of money in rare and custom parts, swap in a 4.6 or a 5.0, they have a MUCH better aftermarket and more displacement to boot I have seen people tune the V6 the most power I have ever seen one make reliably on pump gas is 250hp. The new 4.6s make 300hp stock, and an older model one will make between 225 and 260hp, much better place to start from especaly since the mustang was designed to run it the motor should not be that hard to swap.

BTW a 15% over baseline hp shot of NOS (yes I like calling it that) is considerd very safe if your fuel system is capable of handling it. Just my two cents

actually, the mustang's v6 is a very strong engine, they can handle alot of boost. there's a thread in the car videos forum about it, ill try to find it.

As for the twin charging, go for something that might be worth it, try it on a diesel engine. get a camaro or something and drop in a 5.9L cummins, 6.0L powerstroke, or 7.3L Powerstroke. up the boost alot (to, let's say 30-50psi), and add alot of fuel, the supercharger will keep it from running rich and the turbos will remove the pumping losses from the supercharger.

Ive seen that mustang video. JUST STRAIGHT NUTTY :o

i agree. i think the early 2000 v6s are great motors to work with. i've had two since i was a teenager and both were strong. i've seen two twinturboed versions with little to no modification and they rip apart a 1/4 mile. mind you they never said how long it ran before it blew up but its fun while it lasts. i'm not going to be running crazy boost. just enough to get above 300hp and then the rest is bolt on mods and exterior work.

also i thought saleen had a version of the mid 90 3.8l that they twinturboed called the s351... could be mistaken

as for a 10 second v6. thats insane - put a smile on my face

BTW a 15% over baseline hp shot of NOS (yes I like calling it that) is considerd very safe if your fuel system is capable of handling it. Just my two cents

Can you explain to a novice about nitrous? What is involved in starting out? I have a subaru, baja, and I'm getting a '06 turbo, because subaru's gonna stop production of the baja. I haven't done any mods to it yet but thinking about dual exhaust to start, what do you think? Is nitrous illegal? I'm a gal who loves cars but I don't know alot, where to start and where to go....what I do know is I love driving FAST. This car has an H4, 2.5 liter engine, HP to begin with is 210. I cetainly do not want to ruin my car because of nitrous though, why do people say its dangerous exactly?

there are many threads about nitrous that are very informative, use the search feature and you'll find them.

I'll give you a quick explanation. Air contains ~21% oxygen, that's what you need to burn fuel (sorry if you feel like im treeting you like a child but you said you don't know much) and make power. the more oxygen you can get into a cylender, the more fuel you can burn, and the more power you can make, this is the basic idea behind most power modifications.

nitrous oxide (chemical formula N2O) contains 33% oxygen, that means with the same volume of nitrous you can burn more fuel. nitrous breaks down into nitrogen (N2) and oxygen (O2) at around 500 degrees. when you add nitrous you need to add fuel or the engine will run lean, get really hot, and break. a wet nitrous system (where it injects nitrous oxide and gas at the same time) will be safer than a dry system (where it only injects nitrous) because you are injecting the fuel at the same time as nitrous, you're not waiting for the computer to detect the extra oxygen and add fuel.

Nitrous laws vary from state to state (I believe) and from country to country. here in canada i think it's ok to have it in your car as long as the bottle is closed, i don't know how it is in the states. you should deffinately check that out before setting yourself up.

As for setting it up, there are instructions on nitrous kits that tell you how to install it. it's a pretty easy installation that you should be able to do with some basic hand tools (depending on if it's a wet or dry system, dry is the easiest to install because you don't need to get an extra fuel line from the pump). if you decide to buy a system, ask the people there what tools you need to use and if you need to reset or retune your ecu.

There's a really good thread in another part of the forum: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=459319 it tells you what you should do toincrease power. some of this stuff doesn't apply to you because your baja is fuel injected and this one has some stuff to do with carburators but the basic ideas are the same. the way to make more power is to: 1) get more oxygen and fuel into the cylender (with intake systems, turbochargers, superchargers, nitrous, etc) 2) get exhaust out faster and easier (with a high flowing exhaust system) 3) to get more energy out of the combustion of the fuel (such as increasing the compression, advancing the ignition timing, etc) or 4) making the engine more efficient (removing rotating mass, reducing friction, etc)

For more info use the search feature and look up what you would like (so if you don't know how a turbocharger works, you should look it up, there are many subjects that have been disgused to death so we don't like repeating ourselves but if you still don't understand don't mind asking questions to clear things up).

there are many threads about nitrous that are very informative, use the search feature and you'll find them.

I'll give you a quick explanation. Air contains ~21% oxygen, that's what you need to burn fuel (sorry if you feel like im treeting you like a child but you said you don't know much) and make power. the more oxygen you can get into a cylender, the more fuel you can burn, and the more power you can make, this is the basic idea behind most power modifications.

nitrous oxide (chemical formula N2O) contains 33% oxygen, that means with the same volume of nitrous you can burn more fuel. nitrous breaks down into nitrogen (N2) and oxygen (O2) at around 500 degrees. when you add nitrous you need to add fuel or the engine will run lean, get really hot, and break. a wet nitrous system (where it injects nitrous oxide and gas at the same time) will be safer than a dry system (where it only injects nitrous) because you are injecting the fuel at the same time as nitrous, you're not waiting for the computer to detect the extra oxygen and add fuel.

Nitrous laws vary from state to state (I believe) and from country to country. here in canada i think it's ok to have it in your car as long as the bottle is closed, i don't know how it is in the states. you should deffinately check that out before setting yourself up.

As for setting it up, there are instructions on nitrous kits that tell you how to install it. it's a pretty easy installation that you should be able to do with some basic hand tools (depending on if it's a wet or dry system, dry is the easiest to install because you don't need to get an extra fuel line from the pump). if you decide to buy a system, ask the people there what tools you need to use and if you need to reset or retune your ecu.

There's a really good thread in another part of the forum: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=459319 it tells you what you should do toincrease power. some of this stuff doesn't apply to you because your baja is fuel injected and this one has some stuff to do with carburators but the basic ideas are the same. the way to make more power is to: 1) get more oxygen and fuel into the cylender (with intake systems, turbochargers, superchargers, nitrous, etc) 2) get exhaust out faster and easier (with a high flowing exhaust system) 3) to get more energy out of the combustion of the fuel (such as increasing the compression, advancing the ignition timing, etc) or 4) making the engine more efficient (removing rotating mass, reducing friction, etc)

For more info use the search feature and look up what you would like (so if you don't know how a turbocharger works, you should look it up, there are many subjects that have been disgused to death so we don't like repeating ourselves but if you still don't understand don't mind asking questions to clear things up).

You know your stuff, and it sounds like I asked the right person for sure. Thanks for the kind reply, you did not offend me at all.
I'll keep researching it out and soon I'll have some pictures to post of my work in progress. Baja's are nice cars and its just a crying shame that this is the last year for them.

twin charging usually refers to charging in series, so the two components multiply the boost together. The problem with this design is, for example, you're stuck with the inefficiency of a supercharger at all RPM's since its always engaged.

Sequential charging is when you have two different sized/type chargers, that work independantly or in parallel, but use valves, clutches etc to get independant boost as is best applied for low and high RPM power. Works well when you can get it to work and stay working, but they are more complex than is prefered, and can be prone to failures, bad drivability, etc.

Then, on another angle, is variable turbo's, which is a single turbo with a variable exhaust design that gives the best of both worlds, with one unit. There's many ways to do this, and depending how you do it, it can be cheap and simplistic....and there's the expensive not-so-cheap options too.

The last one is a lot easier than you might think to set up. I'm building one for my motorcycle as we speak....I'll post more data if others are interested.

thank you for your input, this thread was a few months old before someone brought it back up, i think now just about everything has been covered on this topic, i think we should let this thread die.

I'm sorry, didn't mean to interupt the dieing process. Thought I offered some relatively interesting info...but if no one is interested, fine with me. Let it die.

I'm sorry, i didn't mean to sound condesending, it was interesting information. i was just saying that now pretty much all that can be said has been said.

The interesting info I was refering to, wasn't in the post. I was asking if anyone was interested in the interesting info about building your own variable exhaust housing turbo for very little money.

I do not like them in a box.
I do not like them with a fox.
I do not like them in a house.
I do not like them with a mouse.
I do not like them here or there.
I do not like them anywhere.
I do not like green eggs and ham.
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.

I always stated twin turbo as two turbos y'd together. Like 1 on each bank of a v-8 and then both push into a common plenum or into 4 cylinders each. Both doing half the work and the same low boost.

A 2 or 3 stage turbo is one turbo pushing into the next and then the next to increase boost pressures into the hundreds of pounds like a pulling tractor.

i just wanna kno if it would be possable to twin trubo a STI.. an if soo what would the enddin problems be.. cuz im really consedering this

nearly any engine/vehicle can be twin turboed. Along with that can come a whole bucket full of potential problems.

well hmmmm as in wat kinda problems?? cuz i juss want alot of high rpm hp an torque... i mean wat do u think the best bet would be??

cuz i really wanna get an sti an twin turbo it but then again i dont want it to break on me u kno?

Most commonly turbocharging a nat asp engine can result in detonation , overheating.

High rpm or high torque results in high hp. The two together results in tremendous hp gains. I'm not familiar with specific car , but my guess is that the best bet is to leave it stock. Second best is to take it to a shop specializing in turbo systems for your specific car and let them go at it.

yeah u make a great point... also well the stock sti is runnin 300 wheel hp stock i i mean i juss want a lil more power... but thanks for ur input man

hmmm well alos wat kinda car u got?

well ya u make a great point.. that prob is my best bet i was not plannin on do it myself.. yeah bring it to a shop sound the best to me i juss was doin some research on some cars cuz i want to get an all wheel drive fast car u kno and i juss wannted some help i was juss hoppin u guys gould give me some tips on wat to look for or get u kno

My "twin turbo" car is a pickup truck. It's very old and just sets now.

I've designed a few twin charger systems. The setup that I've found most effective (I call it the Hirricane) is keeping the exhaust open for better flow and having a centrifugal supercharger spooling a large turbocharger then the supercharged air is collected after spooling the turbo and joins the turbos charge air at a y-pipe before the Intercooler. This is the least restrictive setup I've designed and can effectively triple your engine output with virtually no lag. You will need to upgrade your exhaust and injectors and have an aftermarket ecu, but can generally use your stock MAF. You can use an air to air intercooler cooled with CO2 or a water to air intercooler with methanol instead of water and use nitrous injection in the charge pipe before the MAF.

I have a picture of the setup on my phone but can't figure out how to post it. :/
Email me for a copy. My email is my username @gmail.com