Air to Liquid Intercoolers

Hey, what exactly are air to Liquid intercoolers, what components are involved in making them work, and do they need a constant air supply to work like a air to air intercooler? Also how come the Bugatti Veyron uses air to liquid intercoolers instead of air to air intercoolers? I thought air to air was better for street use

water to air intercoolers is pretty much exactly what it sounds like, however instead of air cooling the air, water cools the air. It sorta works a little bit backwards though from an air/air setup. In an air to air setup, the compressed air flows through passageways (im not sure of the technical name for them) while the outside air passes through the gills of the intercooler to help cool the passageways. However, for a water/air intercooler the compressed air is passing through the gills of the intercooler while the water is passing through the passageways.

To make this work, you obviously need an intercooler core and then need to weld up some enclosure for the core so the air cant escape as it goes into the engine. Usually a water resevoir is mounted in the trunk for the intercooler, so piping has to be routed to the intercooler and then back to the resevoir. A pump is also needed to circulate the water. Its also good to have a heat exchanger to help cool the water after its passed through the intercooler since air temps can become pretty high.

Both are good for street use. Water/air intercoolers are more efficient than air/air but the downside is the water does heat up fairly quickly which reduces effiecieny.

Also for some cars, like my car (Ford Contour), packaging is an issue and plumbing a large enough front mount intercooler thats sufficient just isnt feasable, so a water/air intercooler under the hood was required.

Heres a picture of my water/air intercooler.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/11/web/503000-503999/503505_83_full.jpg

Air to water intercoolers are really good for like a minuite use, (water is 14 times more effective than air at removing heat from aluminum) after that the chilled water heats up and now you have hot air and hot water. They are used on dragsters alot for their short but effective lifespan. Air to air intercoolers can cool effectivly as long as you want to run them. An intresting mix of the two properties is an air to air intercooler that sprays a fine mist of water onto the heat exchanger eveporating to water cooloing the air even more, works like a charm.

Air to air intercoolers can cool effectivly as long as you want to run them.

So do water/air intercoolers. Although, its really gotta suck running an air/air in the warmer states like Arizona, Florida, etc where your using 100 degree ambient temperatures to "cool" intake temps. Id say the only real advantage of having an air/air is running them on a cold winters day, where as the water in the water/air will eventually warm up. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Also how come the Bugatti Veyron uses air to liquid intercoolers instead of air to air intercoolers? I thought air to air was better for street use
Air-to-airs ARE better just because they are simpler and dont have moving parts. But with mid-engined cars, an air-to-water is useful because the heat exchanger (turbo/supercharger discharge air to water) can be made small and contained IN the engine compartment with no extra scoops on the body to mess up the airflow (and look ugly).
Using my car as an example: The now heated water from the intercooler is pumped many feet forward to a large radiator near the front of the car that is located in a rather spiffy duct.
This intercooler radiator is in front of all the other radiators so it gets first crack at the cold air. It is VERY important to get rid of as much heat as possible from the radiator at the front of the car so the engine can make max. power in a sustained situation (like going to Taco Bell).
Since the plumbing is very long, it takes about 30 seconds for the coolant fluid (antifreeze) to make a complete cycle, so you don't need a reservoir. For all this goodness there is a downside, in my cars case-- the factory claims only 69% total system efficiency in 100*F ambient air, sustained, which is lower than a good air-to-air system.

So do water/air intercoolers. Although, its really gotta suck running an air/air in the warmer states like Arizona, Florida, etc where your using 100 degree ambient temperatures to "cool" intake temps. Id say the only real advantage of having an air/air is running them on a cold winters day, where as the water in the water/air will eventually warm up. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.
No even in hot weather the air to air is still much better, because the water in your system is going to be even hotter, if your intake charge is 300 degrees, and the outside air is 100 then you are still loosing alot of heat, but if your liquid coolent is 250 degrees you are not dispersing alot. The only time a liquid intercooler is "better" is when you you add freezing cold water to it before a quick 1/4 mile run. They have to have a seperate cooling system just for their intercooler, and after you have gone through that trouble you might as well have just installed an air to air system. The reason you could not use the regular coolig system is it is designed to keep the water pretty hot still to maintain optamum runing temp for the engine. Making a better air to water setup is possable but complex and prob not worth your while, just have a water spray over your intercooler, or water injection if you want the cooling effect of water. If you can find me an air to water setup that is better than an air to air for long range use I would love to see it because it would make my project sooooo much easier.

well i think that we should acknowledge THREE types of intercoolers here. Air to air, air to liquid, and air to liquid to air. Air to air is self explanitory. Air to water is pretty simple. It is basically an air to air intercooler that has pretty much had a tank welded around it that can be filled with ice cold water for short term efficiency. Now the Air to liquid to air (as i am calling it) is just like the air to liquid setup except that the tank now has a water inlet and outlet and a pump to take water away from the intercooler and to a heat exchanger that is in the airflow of the car. I BELIEVE that this is the same setup as the EB 16.4 (Veyron). See those two big scoops over the engine? They are cooling the intercooler's heat exchangers. This is a common setup in mid engined cars because it is eisier to run a water line to the front of the car than a charge air line. As black lotus said.

I've heard of some people hooking up their water intercoolers to their engine cooling assembly (like the radiator and such) i don't know how effective this is, it seems to me that the engine cooling gets pretty hot but it can keep its efficiency over a long time.

To me the air-water-air seems the most effective for a cramped space, if you don't have room to get your intake plumbing to a cool place for an intercooler, install this. also all the extra intake plumbing adds turbo lag because the turbo needs to pressurise all that tubing before it gets to the engine. with an ai-water-air system you can keep the intake plumbing as short as posible and still have effective cooling.

An air-air setup seems the easiest to install with good efficiency, you don't need to hook up your intercooler, water plumbing, and heat exchanger, as well as find room for all of it. for street use it seems pretty good. The subaru imprezza, don't know what year, used a button to spray water onto the intercooler, it was just like a winshield washer thing but pointed inside the egnine at the intercooler. i don't know how effective this was at cooling the air, and it doesn't last long, but it seems good for some emergency cooling.

oo so lets say you have a mid engined car at around 800 hp. What kind of intercooler would be the best choice given that you dont have a constant air flow to the intercoolers?

I've heard of some people hooking up their water intercoolers to their engine cooling assembly (like the radiator and such) i don't know how effective this is, it seems to me that the engine cooling gets pretty hot but it can keep its efficiency over a long time. Believe the Renault F1 people did this back in the early '80s with their turbo cars. If you consider that the compressor discharge temps were probably in excess of 400*F, then this makes some sense.
I know this post will get some flack so I'll try to explain as best I can--
Assume compressor output as 400*F (pressure ratio is 4+) and air temp as 80*F.
If the radiator eff. is 80%, then the engine will then be ingesting 144*F air.
Now, if you run it thru engine coolant cooled radiators first, then air-to-airs (like they did), it works out to--
400*F output into the first stage (engine coolant intercoolers) running engine coolant temps of~180*F you get about 224*F output. Now run that 224*F thru the air-to-airs (ambient air at 80*F) and you get 109*F air into the engine.
I approximated all these numbers (pulled them out of my a$$), but you should get the picture.

yea it does kinda make sense if you follow it.so yea what type of intercoolers would be best for a 800 hp midengined car given that there is no constant airflow to the intercoolers??

well there are some mid engined cars like the turbo mr2 and some porsches(ok rear engine) that had air to air mounted in side ducts. The new bugatti veyron uses air to water to air and that is 1k hp. i think you will not find many race cars that use air to water. i think most (like LeMans prototypes) use air to air. I would preffer to use air to air cause of the weight savings and simplicity.

yea it does kinda make sense if you follow it.so yea what type of intercoolers would be best for a 800 hp midengined car given that there is no constant airflow to the intercoolers??
IMO, air-water-air.
For reasons given above.

air to water to air?? so those intercoolers dont need fresh air flowing through them to work right?? because say I have a midengined car that needs intercooling but i don't want to ruin the design with vents and scoops. air to water to air would be best??

air-to-air is the most common because they are simple and don't require water and a water cooler....the water-air intercoolers work very well until the water heats up, then you're kinda F'ed.....but like was said above, packaging can be an issue and the water-air can be fitted into a small area that doesn't have air passing across it....

sweet:smokin:

I´m facing the same problem here. Mid engine layout and no space.
One option is to install an air/air intercooler in the wheelarche, parallel to the wheel (not behind or in front of it) . The wheel induces turbulance that will hopefully create some airflow through the IC. But I have no idea about IC efficiency on this setup (60%?).

another option is the " air/water/(charge)air" IC. having a prerad at the front and some deevious plumping to the back.
One question for blacklotus(esprit;-) how can you calculate the volume/flow of water needed. I know it has to do with the time period the engine is fed with charge air being low. That calculation would result in the fact that you do or don´t require a water reservoir.

cheers,
david.

http://hassproturbo.com/catalog/product_images/mr2-stageII-01.jpg

that is where many many people put an air to air intorcooler in an MR-2 Spyder. I dont know if that would work on an MG.

how can you calculate the volume/flow of water needed. I know it has to do with the time period the engine is fed with charge air being low. That calculation would result in the fact that you do or don´t require a water reservoir.

cheers,
david.
Never considered using just a reservoir. In fact, with all the tubing , front radiator, etc. all that IS the reservoir. About 2 gallons worth.
I wanted a sytem that would function for long periods of time (hours, if need be) under bursts of full throttle.
If you only have a reservoir, and no proper set of radiators to get rid of the heat in the water, you better only have short runs in mind.
Here's what Bell says in his book- MAXIMUM BOOST---"A pump capability of 10 gallons per minute will move 2.5 gallons in 15 seconds; thus, the ideal size of the reservoir is 2.5 gallons." Since Bell has his head wedged into the 1/4 mile scene, that makes sense. But the higher volume pump you put in, the faster the heated water will end up back at the chargecooler,... but it will remove more heat in the first place.
At any rate, I chose my pump by "similarity". There ARE a few pumps out there commercially, for my application that claim better more consistant performance than the stock Jabsco pump.
Here's one, and has 4 GPM flow installed.
http://www.wcengineering.com/esprit/pump.html
Welch is a smart guy, he also works on MR2s if that is what you got.
I believe the pump in my car was aftermarket for somebodys supercharged truck, (Lightning?). It's been plugging away back there for so long now I forgot who made it....
It's nice to poop along in summer in-town traffic for an hour, get home, and feel the chargecooler sitting on top of the hot engine-- and it's cool to the touch. :)

Never considered using just a reservoir.
I thought of a reservoir in combination with the front pre-radiator. To make sure as Bell says, that during boost, the water doesn´t see the charge air twice.
Although I never thought of the fact corky bell focusses on 1/4mi. Knowing this, I can see why he wrote the above*LOL* Good book though. Any more literature suggestions?

In fact, with all the tubing , front radiator, etc. all that IS the reservoir. About 2 gallons worth.
Absolutely!

I wanted a sytem that would function for long periods of time (hours, if need be) under bursts of full throttle.
So the water pump stays on all the time? It is not triggered by charge air temp? (~winter time)

http://www.wcengineering.com/esprit/pump.html
Just what I need, a reasonably priced electric water pump ;-)
Thanks for that

he also works on MR2s if that is what you got.
this is my car:
http://dennis.core-lan.nl/mgf/album46
´99 MG F with Rover K-series engine not approved for US market :-(
So no replacement for the ever beloved MG B´s. But now the chinese have taken over Rover, they intend to put in VW/AUDI´s 1.8(T) powerplant, wich AFAIK has been (emissionwise) approved for the US market. Or they could do as Lotus did and put the Toyota lump in the car (Elise in this case). Have it turbocharged by US-based Force Fed company.

Cheers,

Liquid Intercoolers are good because you can literlaly put ice water into them. :)

So the water pump stays on all the time? It is not triggered by charge air temp? (~winter time)
Cheers,
No, the pump runs all the time the ignition is on (per Bells suggestion).
It's been whirring away for a year or so now. You can just barely hear it running with the engine off, so it's very quiet. Verify what the inlet and outlet fitting size is on the pumps you look at. They do vary in size...
I think Bell has a new book out, but I don't know anything about it.

No, the pump runs all the time the ignition is on (per Bells suggestion).
It's been whirring away for a year or so now. You can just barely hear it running with the engine off, so it's very quiet. Verify what the inlet and outlet fitting size is on the pumps you look at. They do vary in size...
I think Bell has a new book out, but I don't know anything about it.

mine is the same way. When the ignition is on, the pump circulates the water.

wait, so what exactly do you need in an air to liquid intercooling system?
So far I have
-The Intercooler itself
-Water Pump
-Radiator

Is that all you need for an air to liquid intercooling system to work properly?
Also these intercoolers do not need constant fresh outside air to work right?

that´s basically it. Some add fuse and temp relay for the pump to kick in.
Most wire it to fuel pump electrics, so it is allways on when the motor´son.

My question, how do you determine the size of the pre rad cooler?
10 row oil cooler maybe

wait, so what exactly do you need in an air to liquid intercooling system?
So far I have
-The Intercooler itself
-Water Pump
-Radiator

Is that all you need for an air to liquid intercooling system to work properly?
Also these intercoolers do not need constant fresh outside air to work right?

youll probably need a water resevoir as well. Dont forget all the misc. hoses.

yea true. Like the wiring, hoses, brackets. etc

One last thing, does the radiator need outside air to work properly?

as long as the air surrounding the radiator is cool enough to prevent the engine from overheating it's fine. you don't need outside air, but it deffinately helps. on a smaller car that doesn't run at wot alot it's ok to have it with at least a constant flow of somewhat cool air, fo a high performance vehicle running at wot and reving high and whatnot, it's necessary to have a constant flow of outside air.

true true

If the car has a/c, why not use the a/c system to chill the water/antifreeze in the holding tank to as cold as the antifreeze is good for. Use a lectrovalve on the freon system actuated by a temp sensor in the tank. Use a pump acutated by a temp sensor in the i/c water core to circulate the chilled water. After all, heat energy transfer is best when the temp diff is highest, if I disremember my thermogodamics right...

With good i/c efficiency and great temp diff, you could get the charge temp well below ambient air temps. You might have a problem with throttle body icing, though, but I bet mo' boost would cure that...

This would be a VERY compact system for the mid engine crowd, and most of the freon hardware could be robbed from a dual air minivan, I bet.