HELP! ('95 code misery)
molatech
12-04-2005, 07:04 PM
I don't know why I am having such a difficult time finding this info.
Gotta be me.
But my son has picked up a 1995 Olds Delta 88 3.8L which seemed to be running fine at the time of purchase.
Stall problems now after a 20 to 40 min. run.
Engine only has 74k on it, and looking through hundreds of threads finds many 'possibilities". So start with the codes...right? Right?
Well, '94 - '95 "transition year GM's...mystery.
It's labeled as OBD I, yet has a 16 pin OBD II type connector. Seems to have only 6 pins connected though.
8th VIN is K. I have yet to run across anyplace that can definitively explain how to extract codes from this mess.
Even the scanner sites can't pinpoint which scanner to use.
Am I stuck getting raped by a dealer here to find out which sensor or part is doing this? At the price of these parts, one does not just start popping new ones in randomly. Thats for sure.
Thanks for any info that anyone can shed here!
Gotta be me.
But my son has picked up a 1995 Olds Delta 88 3.8L which seemed to be running fine at the time of purchase.
Stall problems now after a 20 to 40 min. run.
Engine only has 74k on it, and looking through hundreds of threads finds many 'possibilities". So start with the codes...right? Right?
Well, '94 - '95 "transition year GM's...mystery.
It's labeled as OBD I, yet has a 16 pin OBD II type connector. Seems to have only 6 pins connected though.
8th VIN is K. I have yet to run across anyplace that can definitively explain how to extract codes from this mess.
Even the scanner sites can't pinpoint which scanner to use.
Am I stuck getting raped by a dealer here to find out which sensor or part is doing this? At the price of these parts, one does not just start popping new ones in randomly. Thats for sure.
Thanks for any info that anyone can shed here!
maxwedge
12-05-2005, 09:01 AM
Both my Snap on and Actron 9150 scanners work here, find a garage that has the proper scanner.
molatech
12-05-2005, 01:31 PM
Both my Snap on and Actron 9150 scanners work here, find a garage that has the proper scanner.
Which model Snap On Max?
Which model Snap On Max?
maxwedge
12-05-2005, 04:57 PM
mtg 2500 or mt 2500
XGamesJ6
12-14-2005, 10:01 PM
Well if the label under the hood and every else says OBD I then its OBD I the OBD II style connector is just a transition thing. you can do a diagnostic yourself with a paper clip...heres all you need to know
I posted EVERYTHING below. if you want to see the actual website then go to http://tvoffer.tripod.com/gmcodes.htm I couldnt find the original link...plus my old website got shut down...so heres a temp that i'll keep up for people. i recommend going to that site. its eaiser to understand
General Motors Trouble Codes
Introduction:
GM (Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile) OBD-I equipped vehicles are some of the easiest cars and trucks to pull codes from. You'll need nothing more than a paper clip as a diagnostic tool. This page is divided into general information that's relevant to all GM's of this era, and specific code listings for various platforms.
OBD-I vs OBD-II:
As was mentioned in the Trouble Code Project introduction, all vehicles made and sold after January 1, 1996, had to be compliant to the new OBD-II standard. Because this was incorporated as a running change, there are some GM vehicles built in 1994-1995 that have an OBD-II style connector, but still use the OBD-I system. To determine if a changeover-year vehicle is OBD-I or OBD-II, look under the hood on the emissions information stickers.
The ALDL:
OBD-I equipped GM's (with the exceptions listed above) have a connector known as the Assembly Line Data Link, which in addition to being used to retrieve trouble codes can also be connected to a scan tool or a laptop computer using a special interface cable. Some relay functions can also be triggered for testing using the ALDL. The connector is usually located under the dashboard and may have a plastic cap covering the terminals. It has two rows of female terminals with six per row. Here's how they're laid out:
F E D C B A
G H M
A - Ground
B - Diagnostic Terminal (Engine)
C - A.I.R.
D - Check Engine Lamp
E - Serial Data
F - Torque Converter Lockup
G - Fuel Pump
H - Diagnostic Terminal (Anti-Lock Brakes)
M - Serial Data
The oddball vehicles with the OBD-II type connector (shown below) and OBD-I electronics can retrieve codes by connecting the #5 and #6 terminals.
OBD-II connector
Code Retrieval:
With the engine off, connect the A and B terminals (or the #5 and #6 terminals in the case of an OBD-I vehicle with the 16 pin OBD-II style connector) with your trusty paper clip. WITHOUT STARTING THE ENGINE, turn the key to the 'run' position and watch the "check engine" light. All GM codes are 2 digit, and each code will repeat three times before moving on to the next stored code. The format is "first digit, short pause, second digit, long pause", and the fact that each code is repeated three times makes it easy to figure out. The first and last code you'll get is "12", which indicates that the computer is in diagnostic mode. If you only get code 12, there are no faults stored in the system.
Resetting the ECU:
Once you've pulled codes and made any fixes, you can clear the codes and reset the ECU by removing the power to the computer for at least 30 seconds. You can do this by either disconnecting the positive battery terminal (but be sure you have the instructions and codes for resetting your radio's anti-theft code and your remote entry system, if so equipped) or by pulling the ECM fuse(s).
Once the computer has been reset, you'll need to drive the vehicle at part throttle under moderate acceleration, and allow it to come up to normal operating temperature to allow the system to relearn its base settings.
Code Definitions:
General Trouble Codes
Code Definition
12 Normal Operation
13 Oxygen Sensor Circuit (open)
14 Coolant Sensor (Low Voltage)
15 Coolant Sensor (High Voltage)
16 System Voltage High
17 RPM Signal Error (3.8l C-body only)
21 Throttle Position Sensor (Low Voltage)
22 Throttle Position Sensor (High Voltage)
23 Manifold Air Temperature Sensor (High Voltage)
24 Vehicle Speed Sensor
25 Manifold Air Temperature Sensor (Low Voltage)
26 Quad Driver Error
27 Gear Switch Error (3.3l & 3.8l only)
28 Gear Switch Error (3.3l & 3.8l only)
29 Gear Switch Error (3.3l & 3.8l only)
31 1990 models - Turbo Purge Solenoid Error
1991 models - Park/Neutral Switch Error (3.3l & 3.8l only)
32 EGR Vacuum Control
33 MAP Sensor (Low Voltage)
34 MAP Sensor (High Voltage)
35 Idle Air Control Solenoid Error
36 Transmission Shift Circuit Error (PCM equipped models only)
38 Brake Switch Error (3.3l & 3.8l only)
39 Torque Converter Clutch Error
41 Cam Sensor Error (3.3l & 3.8l only)
42 Electronic Spark Timing (open or grounded)
43 Electronic Spark Control Error
44 Oxygen Sensor (Lean)
45 Oxygen Sensor (Rich)
46 Power Steering Pressure Switch or
Anti Theft System Fault
47 PCM/BCM Lost Data (3.8l E-body only)
48 Misfire (3.3l & 3.8l only)
51 PROM Error
52 CALPAK Error or
Low Engine Oil Temperature (Corvette only)
53 System Over-Voltage
55 ECM / PCM Error
59 Anti-Theft System Error (3.8l only)
61 Degraded Oxygen Sensor (3.1l & 4.3l only)
62 Gear Switch Error (3.1l & 4.3l only)
63 EGR Flow Check Error (3.8l H-body only)
64 EGR Flow Check Error (3.8l H-body only)
65 EGR Flow Check Error (3.8l H-body only) or
Fuel Injector Low Current (2.3l only)
66 AC Pressure Sensor Voltage Out of Range
67 AC Head Pressure Switch Error (3.8l only)
TBI (Throttle Body Injection) Trouble Codes
Code Definition
12 Normal Operation
13 Oxygen Sensor Circuit (open)
14 Coolant Sensor (Low Voltage)
15 Coolant Sensor (High Voltage)
21 Throttle Position Sensor (Low Voltage)
22 Throttle Position Sensor (High Voltage)
24 Vehicle Speed Sensor
33 MAP Sensor (Low Voltage)
34 MAP Sensor (High Voltage)
42 Electronic Spark Timing
44 Oxygen Sensor (Lean)
45 Oxygen Sensor (Rich)
51 PROM Error
55 ECM Error
Port Injection Trouble Codes
Code Definition
12 Normal Operation
13 Oxygen Sensor Circuit (open)
14 Coolant Sensor (Low Voltage)
15 Coolant Sensor (High Voltage)
21 Throttle Position Sensor (Low Voltage)
22 Throttle Position Sensor (High Voltage)
24 Vehicle Speed Sensor
32 EGR Vacuum Control
33 MAP Sensor (Low Voltage)
34 MAP Sensor (High Voltage)
42 Electronic Spark Timing
43 Electronic Spark Control
44 Oxygen Sensor (Lean)
45 Oxygen Sensor (Rich)
51 PROM Error
52 CALPAK Error
55 ECM Error
I posted EVERYTHING below. if you want to see the actual website then go to http://tvoffer.tripod.com/gmcodes.htm I couldnt find the original link...plus my old website got shut down...so heres a temp that i'll keep up for people. i recommend going to that site. its eaiser to understand
General Motors Trouble Codes
Introduction:
GM (Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile) OBD-I equipped vehicles are some of the easiest cars and trucks to pull codes from. You'll need nothing more than a paper clip as a diagnostic tool. This page is divided into general information that's relevant to all GM's of this era, and specific code listings for various platforms.
OBD-I vs OBD-II:
As was mentioned in the Trouble Code Project introduction, all vehicles made and sold after January 1, 1996, had to be compliant to the new OBD-II standard. Because this was incorporated as a running change, there are some GM vehicles built in 1994-1995 that have an OBD-II style connector, but still use the OBD-I system. To determine if a changeover-year vehicle is OBD-I or OBD-II, look under the hood on the emissions information stickers.
The ALDL:
OBD-I equipped GM's (with the exceptions listed above) have a connector known as the Assembly Line Data Link, which in addition to being used to retrieve trouble codes can also be connected to a scan tool or a laptop computer using a special interface cable. Some relay functions can also be triggered for testing using the ALDL. The connector is usually located under the dashboard and may have a plastic cap covering the terminals. It has two rows of female terminals with six per row. Here's how they're laid out:
F E D C B A
G H M
A - Ground
B - Diagnostic Terminal (Engine)
C - A.I.R.
D - Check Engine Lamp
E - Serial Data
F - Torque Converter Lockup
G - Fuel Pump
H - Diagnostic Terminal (Anti-Lock Brakes)
M - Serial Data
The oddball vehicles with the OBD-II type connector (shown below) and OBD-I electronics can retrieve codes by connecting the #5 and #6 terminals.
OBD-II connector
Code Retrieval:
With the engine off, connect the A and B terminals (or the #5 and #6 terminals in the case of an OBD-I vehicle with the 16 pin OBD-II style connector) with your trusty paper clip. WITHOUT STARTING THE ENGINE, turn the key to the 'run' position and watch the "check engine" light. All GM codes are 2 digit, and each code will repeat three times before moving on to the next stored code. The format is "first digit, short pause, second digit, long pause", and the fact that each code is repeated three times makes it easy to figure out. The first and last code you'll get is "12", which indicates that the computer is in diagnostic mode. If you only get code 12, there are no faults stored in the system.
Resetting the ECU:
Once you've pulled codes and made any fixes, you can clear the codes and reset the ECU by removing the power to the computer for at least 30 seconds. You can do this by either disconnecting the positive battery terminal (but be sure you have the instructions and codes for resetting your radio's anti-theft code and your remote entry system, if so equipped) or by pulling the ECM fuse(s).
Once the computer has been reset, you'll need to drive the vehicle at part throttle under moderate acceleration, and allow it to come up to normal operating temperature to allow the system to relearn its base settings.
Code Definitions:
General Trouble Codes
Code Definition
12 Normal Operation
13 Oxygen Sensor Circuit (open)
14 Coolant Sensor (Low Voltage)
15 Coolant Sensor (High Voltage)
16 System Voltage High
17 RPM Signal Error (3.8l C-body only)
21 Throttle Position Sensor (Low Voltage)
22 Throttle Position Sensor (High Voltage)
23 Manifold Air Temperature Sensor (High Voltage)
24 Vehicle Speed Sensor
25 Manifold Air Temperature Sensor (Low Voltage)
26 Quad Driver Error
27 Gear Switch Error (3.3l & 3.8l only)
28 Gear Switch Error (3.3l & 3.8l only)
29 Gear Switch Error (3.3l & 3.8l only)
31 1990 models - Turbo Purge Solenoid Error
1991 models - Park/Neutral Switch Error (3.3l & 3.8l only)
32 EGR Vacuum Control
33 MAP Sensor (Low Voltage)
34 MAP Sensor (High Voltage)
35 Idle Air Control Solenoid Error
36 Transmission Shift Circuit Error (PCM equipped models only)
38 Brake Switch Error (3.3l & 3.8l only)
39 Torque Converter Clutch Error
41 Cam Sensor Error (3.3l & 3.8l only)
42 Electronic Spark Timing (open or grounded)
43 Electronic Spark Control Error
44 Oxygen Sensor (Lean)
45 Oxygen Sensor (Rich)
46 Power Steering Pressure Switch or
Anti Theft System Fault
47 PCM/BCM Lost Data (3.8l E-body only)
48 Misfire (3.3l & 3.8l only)
51 PROM Error
52 CALPAK Error or
Low Engine Oil Temperature (Corvette only)
53 System Over-Voltage
55 ECM / PCM Error
59 Anti-Theft System Error (3.8l only)
61 Degraded Oxygen Sensor (3.1l & 4.3l only)
62 Gear Switch Error (3.1l & 4.3l only)
63 EGR Flow Check Error (3.8l H-body only)
64 EGR Flow Check Error (3.8l H-body only)
65 EGR Flow Check Error (3.8l H-body only) or
Fuel Injector Low Current (2.3l only)
66 AC Pressure Sensor Voltage Out of Range
67 AC Head Pressure Switch Error (3.8l only)
TBI (Throttle Body Injection) Trouble Codes
Code Definition
12 Normal Operation
13 Oxygen Sensor Circuit (open)
14 Coolant Sensor (Low Voltage)
15 Coolant Sensor (High Voltage)
21 Throttle Position Sensor (Low Voltage)
22 Throttle Position Sensor (High Voltage)
24 Vehicle Speed Sensor
33 MAP Sensor (Low Voltage)
34 MAP Sensor (High Voltage)
42 Electronic Spark Timing
44 Oxygen Sensor (Lean)
45 Oxygen Sensor (Rich)
51 PROM Error
55 ECM Error
Port Injection Trouble Codes
Code Definition
12 Normal Operation
13 Oxygen Sensor Circuit (open)
14 Coolant Sensor (Low Voltage)
15 Coolant Sensor (High Voltage)
21 Throttle Position Sensor (Low Voltage)
22 Throttle Position Sensor (High Voltage)
24 Vehicle Speed Sensor
32 EGR Vacuum Control
33 MAP Sensor (Low Voltage)
34 MAP Sensor (High Voltage)
42 Electronic Spark Timing
43 Electronic Spark Control
44 Oxygen Sensor (Lean)
45 Oxygen Sensor (Rich)
51 PROM Error
52 CALPAK Error
55 ECM Error
molatech
12-15-2005, 04:22 PM
WoW! XGames this is great. Just the info I was looking for.
Thanks a bunch.
I haven't tried it yet...but will shortly.
I'll post again when I do.
Thanks again.
Thanks a bunch.
I haven't tried it yet...but will shortly.
I'll post again when I do.
Thanks again.
XGamesJ6
12-15-2005, 04:24 PM
No Problem! as you can see from my SIG i have 3 cars. all old. so when i got all that info i was crazy happy. And im glad to help anyone who needs help. So No Problem. Any Time.
molatech
12-27-2005, 10:52 AM
No Problem! as you can see from my SIG i have 3 cars. all old. so when i got all that info i was crazy happy. And im glad to help anyone who needs help. So No Problem. Any Time.
Anyway...been pretty busy and a few days ago finally had a chance to try out your information. There are no connections at 5 and 6 on the obd ii connector. Only terminals used are 4, 5, 8, 9, 14, 16.
Jumping 4&5 did nothing, which appeared to be the closest match. Only got a solid on engine light.
Didn't trust just jumping around the connector, as I see from some documents that 16 has 12 volts, 5 might be a ground, might not.
Don't need to inadvertently do any damage.
I did find a document that shows, supposedly, the arrangement of a OBD I brain with the OBD II connector. But it wasn't a USA vehicle, which is kinda strange.
But...the connections were 'almost' the same' with the only difference being #4 being used and # 6 not being used.
One question I still do have and never asked....I always thought that with most vehicles...once a code is set, the light stays on until reset or after a number of restarts with no problem. I've been getting a light which will reset if I just shut the engine down and restart it once! Almost like a gas cap thing. But just curious as if this is normal too, or if maybe this points to a defective ECM or something.
Problem still there...with the engine running pretty good on light or slow acceleration...flies through emmision testing with reading so low they are almost non-exsistent! (on the 'treadmill')
But if I get heavy on the pedal, or try to kick it in to pass, no power at all. Just sputters...and if I keep egging it on...will go into the stalling syndrome. Weird...if I stay light on the pedal with slow acceleration...you wouldn't know there was a problem at all.
I do have a replacement TPS to try...just wondering why the Haynes manual says in order to make the 'final adjustments' I would need to take the vehicle to a repair shop with a scanner or to a dealer.
Good grief.
Is this all just fear factors in not wanting people to work on their own vehicles, misinformation, or do we all really need at least associates degrees in automotive electronics to do a repair anymore? lol.
Anyway....thanks for your time and info. It's greatly appreciated.
Anyway...been pretty busy and a few days ago finally had a chance to try out your information. There are no connections at 5 and 6 on the obd ii connector. Only terminals used are 4, 5, 8, 9, 14, 16.
Jumping 4&5 did nothing, which appeared to be the closest match. Only got a solid on engine light.
Didn't trust just jumping around the connector, as I see from some documents that 16 has 12 volts, 5 might be a ground, might not.
Don't need to inadvertently do any damage.
I did find a document that shows, supposedly, the arrangement of a OBD I brain with the OBD II connector. But it wasn't a USA vehicle, which is kinda strange.
But...the connections were 'almost' the same' with the only difference being #4 being used and # 6 not being used.
One question I still do have and never asked....I always thought that with most vehicles...once a code is set, the light stays on until reset or after a number of restarts with no problem. I've been getting a light which will reset if I just shut the engine down and restart it once! Almost like a gas cap thing. But just curious as if this is normal too, or if maybe this points to a defective ECM or something.
Problem still there...with the engine running pretty good on light or slow acceleration...flies through emmision testing with reading so low they are almost non-exsistent! (on the 'treadmill')
But if I get heavy on the pedal, or try to kick it in to pass, no power at all. Just sputters...and if I keep egging it on...will go into the stalling syndrome. Weird...if I stay light on the pedal with slow acceleration...you wouldn't know there was a problem at all.
I do have a replacement TPS to try...just wondering why the Haynes manual says in order to make the 'final adjustments' I would need to take the vehicle to a repair shop with a scanner or to a dealer.
Good grief.
Is this all just fear factors in not wanting people to work on their own vehicles, misinformation, or do we all really need at least associates degrees in automotive electronics to do a repair anymore? lol.
Anyway....thanks for your time and info. It's greatly appreciated.
XGamesJ6
12-27-2005, 11:47 AM
im glad to help. sorry my info wasnt very helpful though. i have only 4 cars in my house hold. 3 have OBD I with the OBD I style connector. and the other car has an OBD II connector..but it has an OBD II system. so i cant test if any of that works. I would still like to help but i dont know what to do. the only other thing i can say is..Autozone will usually do a free diagnostic for newer cars. with an OBD II system. but the one by my house also does it for older cars with OBD I. maybe you might want to go check it out. they usually do it for free. but i dont know if all Autozones do it for OBD I systems. Well i hope u get this problem fixed
molatech
12-27-2005, 09:09 PM
im glad to help. sorry my info wasnt very helpful though. i have only 4 cars in my house hold. 3 have OBD I with the OBD I style connector. and the other car has an OBD II connector..but it has an OBD II system. so i cant test if any of that works. I would still like to help but i dont know what to do. the only other thing i can say is..Autozone will usually do a free diagnostic for newer cars. with an OBD II system. but the one by my house also does it for older cars with OBD I. maybe you might want to go check it out. they usually do it for free. but i dont know if all Autozones do it for OBD I systems. Well i hope u get this problem fixed
Thanks for the quick response. I already tried the Autozone thing.
They hooked up an Accutron and ran it twice....just to get the expected "error". It wouldn't read it. Thats about as far as they go.
I'll keep hunting around. When I find it, IF I find it...I'll be sure to let you know so others don't have to grope around like this.
Thanks for the quick response. I already tried the Autozone thing.
They hooked up an Accutron and ran it twice....just to get the expected "error". It wouldn't read it. Thats about as far as they go.
I'll keep hunting around. When I find it, IF I find it...I'll be sure to let you know so others don't have to grope around like this.
XGamesJ6
12-27-2005, 09:19 PM
alright...if i find anything out i'll be sure to post
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