Big Plans!!!!need Some Help

A month ago i purchased a '91 Civic dx/si not sure.title says dx,car says si,has a d15b2 in it,i assume it HAD a d16 cause i know the morons put a different engine iin it.Only 119000 miles on the car,90000 on engine,traded my hand me down 98neon for it,so not bad.I live in the middle of nowhere,the idiot hicks that lowered it did it with 3.00" drop springs(prolly $30 shit ones too) and did not change the shocks,nor fix the camber.i am gettin some Neuspeed .75" softsport springs for X-Mas,cause the roads out here SUCK too bad for a slammed ride and I plan on buying some KYB shocks.
I live an hour from Saint Louis and my home town where i spend most of my time is about 40 minutes from the Lou as well.Population 20000,no real badass cars,but like a PLAGUE more and more SRT-4's are showing up with punkass kids who barely know how to drive a manual,cause mommy and daddy thought,it has four doors,cant kill himself in that.HAH.

So,my point being stated you know what my oposition is.Before spending my nights in STL with the STL Street Race club that meets on Lindburg every saturday,i think i need to be able to at least dominate this shit ass town.
I am putting my system in it,so weight reduction is a dead issue.lol.
I am a rookie at complex auto custom operations,i have 6months training under my belt as Auto Tech,and i am Re-enrolling is school for a 2year in the same.I have a job that pays well but this car will be built slowly,paycheck by paycheck.it is reliable right now,but looks like hell(stock rims,hail damge,partially painted plastic body trim,etc.)First i am gonna Sand,bondo/fiberglass all body trim,meaning i am ripping it of,i like smooth lines,and a body kit,lookin at some silver mettallic paints.
First of all,painting on my own with no experience it it,making a temp painting boooth of plastic tarp,with a decent spray gun...could it turn out descent?if i take some practice runs,and do my research?any tips?i wanna save money.With the body kit,nesassary bondo/fiberglass,and paint,i wanna keep it under 1k.this possible?any polyurethyne body kit recommendations?i heard that fiberglass kits break easy,and poly is nearly in-destructible.i want a kit that doesnt have a bunch of points and looks like it should be on a spaceship.lol.simple,durable,under 500 bucks.
PERFORMANCE: i need something that will eat up these damn NEONS,and for those SRT-4 fanatics.....THEY ARE NEONS....period.i hear that argument alot.I am interested mainly in putting out some high torque,around the neighborhood of 200ftlbs.i was thinking of a b18b1 engine.i would like to stay naturally aspirated if possible.I also wanna keep this whole engine under 6k....or am i dreaming?Porting,polishing and all this other lingo....is this exspensive?if nessasary i can go turbo,and N2O,but...and this is a big but....with all this power i want,and all that.....it has to be RELIABLE,this ride has to KEEP getting me to work and school.i cant have a turbo or n20 blowin shit up,and causing breakdowns.it is a daily driver.So,can i put up these power goals,with reliability,and under 6k(including engine,trans,mods)?
i am mainly interested in being able to hold my head up when a srt4 rolls by.NOT TO MEANTION,my city has 2 i have seen,but prolly 3 or 4 EVO's runnin round.those would be a big goal,but i wanna keep this whole project under 10k,8k hopefully.Right now my first concern is the paint,and body work,bodykit selction and what not,i want it to look good first.then,it will be BAD.Hit me with some suggestions,and ideas.
thanks guys

You have a long road ahead of you. The only way you can dream of hanging with SRT-4 is with a fully built turbo b-series engine. My advice is to read a lot in the "forced induction" section of the forum. I think Honda even has a subforum for it alone.

As far as body kits, the poly-urethane WW kit is the smoothest IMO. Bondo is easy to work with but tough as hell to make nice and smooth unless you have all the tools of the trade (which I did not).

If you do decide to make your own paint booth remember to wear a mask specifically designed for using actual paint (not primer) or you'll end up dead.

I would look into a K20 swap. With boltons, ECU reflash, cams you are looking at 230-250 fwhp which will even hang with an evo. Cost: 5-6k for the engine, 2-3k for the rest of the engine work.

u don't have't to go all out i have a friend with a hatch with a b16a swap with a little work an he's keepin with srt4's no lie

WOW....that was some quick replies.Thanks guys.I figured building a engine to keep with srt4's would be a pain.The k20 option is out of thee question,too much money.and i am a novice when it somes to engine swaps,which is why i have to stick with B series stuff,cause i heard they are easiest. Anyone work with fiberglass strips,instead of bondo? Plus,ummmmm,i really shouldnt need as much power as a SRT4 does to go as fast should i,when you compare the weight of the two vehicles?i should need significantly less power,you would think so anyway.i have heard the B18B LS engine is a good one for boosting,true?But i have also heard something about LS blocks dont have oil squirters,what is this?With the SRT4 goal aside,what is a list of stuff i could do to a b-series engine to keep it naturally aspirated and fast and torquey?I can only think of,exhaust,chip,ecu,intake,and thats about it,but there must be more. Is it true body kits never quite fit right?what is the WW body kit?where can i find it online?Thanks guys

If i were you just go ls zc stay no vtec go for torgue an go either ls vtec or even better get a b20block an go for a b16a head stronger than a gsr head an do crvtec or just do whatever you want it all depends of what you wanna go for as for me i wish i just went zc an went the turbo route

To stay NA, you should probably investigate light weight crank and alternator pulleys and a light weight flywheel.

If i were you just go ls zc stay no vtec go for torgue an go either ls vtec or even better get a b20block an go for a b16a head stronger than a gsr head an do crvtec or just do whatever you want it all depends of what you wanna go for as for me i wish i just went zc an went the turbo route
I thought ZC's were 2nd rate motors?Never hear much about em,unless they are being swapped for b series engines.thanks for your reply.I have looked into the LSVtec and CRVtec and from what i gather they arent exactly meant for reliability or daily driving.correct me if i'm wrong.

I thought ZC's were 2nd rate motors?Never hear much about em,unless they are being swapped for b series engines.thanks for your reply.I have looked into the LSVtec and CRVtec and from what i gather they arent exactly meant for reliability or daily driving.correct me if i'm wrong.
You're right on that point. They're hard to build so they're done right. A B20 was never meant to spin up to 8-9k, rpms where the b16 vtec head shines.
IMO k20 is still the best there is. I mean just after the swap which will cost $6k you will be able to keep up with the srt-4, and you still have lots of potential left in that engine for later on when you have the money. I can't tell you how to build your car, because that's really your business. If I were you though I'd worry a little bit less on how the car looks on the outside (no body kits), and spend the money on making it fast.

Correct me if i am wrong....BUT....isnt vtec pretty much good gas mileage at low rpm,and high power at high RPM??? So persay if one wanted a car that produced a lot of torque at 4500 rpm or less,vtec really isnt his thing?am i right?it seems to me,the way i am looking at it,vtec would be better for pullin away from the guy after a slow takeoff,but a low end torque block would be gettin the holeshot?sound right?i guess either way is a strength,both have powerbands.Lemme hear some input and opinions.Thanks

Honda engines (pre-K... I have no experience to comment) lack power below 3k rpms and generally make the most power as you said after 4500 rpms. Vtec does work as you said but with tuning and parts you can get to 4500 rpms faster. It takes tuning. Let's look at my little d16a6 real quick. Everybody says that without vtec it ain't worth shit. Then why do I keep right up with z6 and y8 cars? I have a mild cam and bolt-on parts that get me into my power band quick. And since I have no rev limit, I can push it passed 7200rpms making power. The only way I can get torque down low in the rpms to match the power on up would be to go turbo. It would be interesting to say the least using an Si tranny with close gears. What would normally be 80mph at 4200 rpms in 5th gear N/A would be fully boosted and perhaps much faster with turbo...

If low-end torque is what you're looking for, then the car you bought is missing 4 pistons. Hondas make good power up on top, but you'll have to wind it out, and keep it up there. It's much easier to get a different car than to change your car to make low-end torque. Think of it this way. A woman has huge boobs, but no butt. Sure, with lots of money you could change her to have a big butt and small boobs, but it would be much easier to find one that already has the big butt with the small boobs.

my old t3/t4e b16 rex track times.

11.9@117mph. 295whp with slicks. low 13s on street tires.

if your going to be going up against SRT4s and EVOs, something nothing short of boost will only do it. a lightly modified SRT4 or EVO uping their boost is still going to give you a run for your money. your main enemy is you are FWD with serious traction issues compared to those others. the boosting part is easy, the traction control sucks.

as for fixing the exterior of my old rex................all it took was some sanding, bundling, and primering. a little over $150 for the supplies, some time and good detailed eyes, and took it to maaco for a $250 special (wait for their coupons) paint job. cheap paint and good clearcoat. nice finish. just dont expect it to survive acid rain or anything.

the info is out there. do a search.

Thanks for the replies guys really,i appreciate the input.I have been on the internet since i posted this thing this morning,my head hurts,and i have banged my head on the wall a couple times weighing out these engine pros and cons all damn day.
As far as looks go,they are important to me,this is my first used car,i am used to brand new cars,the look and the feel,so you can guess how steppin into this car felt for me. Its a balance for me,someone shows me their tricked out ride with every bell and whistle imaginable on it,but a clunker under the hood,it aint nuthin.Show me a rust bucket,sqeakin,rattling piece of junk with a k20 turboed under the hood,aint nuthin.Gotta hve both for me.SO,i think i have decided with a b18c1.Puts up some descent number outta the box,definately better than my d15b2.lol.
MY big question of the day is....
i have been reading everything and everything on these cars,and what i cant descipher from these endless rants people go on is this.
At what point in boosting and nitrous do i HAVE to start doing engine work to build the engine durability against these increases in power.
Can i take a b18c1,throw in some skunk 2 valves and cam stage 1?what about these aftermarket pistons that are 12.5:1 comp ratio,is this too much for a street application?Can the engine handle 5 or 6psi boost and a cheater shot of NOS without re-sleaving and all this other crap i have been scanning over ALL DAY?what is the best transmission to get for OR with this engine considering my cable tranny setup?with the compression being stock 10:1 could i put some JE 11.5:1 pistons in it with no problems,and without having to run race fuel?Could i throw in some Eagle GSR connecting rods?and when i throw all these components into the stock engine,this is a big question....do i have to take to a race shop or tuner,and spend an assload of money,just so they are tuned,or are these kinda bolt in aftermarket internals? thanks again,now i will go beat myself in the head with a hammer to keep everything i've mashed into my head this morning. :sly: :bricks1: :banghead:

Are you planning on turboing that engine? If yes, than you want to look at 8.5:1 or 9:1 compression ratios. If you plan on staying na, than you can probably (not 100% sure) run 12:1 compression on 93 octane safely. The more power you make, the more important your tune becomes, so you don't want to skimp out on that. Yes, aftermarket internals bolt in :p:

Ok, first off...the body and paint:

If you want it to last long, don't skimp out and buy the cheap stuff and cutting corners on doing the job right. Cheap bondo or bad application/too much bondo, will cause it to crack later and you having to grind it ALL down and do it over again. and yes, just using bondo to fill in your body line is too much bondo. You can use some fiberglass filler first and then bondo it smooth, but its still no subsitute for a metal plate being welded in to fill most of it and bondo the rest.

I would say at least 90% of a paint job is all prep work. If the vehicle hasn't been prepped right the paint will have problems sticking and will look fine at first, and eventually start peeling off and then your back where you started or worse having to strip it all down, because if you paint over paint that already isn't sticking, its just going to ruin your new paint job. And as far as the mask goes, you can just go down to like O'Reilly's, or your local parts or paint store and ask for a paint respirator, same thing as a primer mask, unless you consider a dusk mask a primer mask.

Now for the motor part:

If your wanting to stay N/A you will need to up your compression and reduce some weight on some key things, mainly get your crank lightened and balance and all that fun stuff, and anything else you can get lighter internal, do it. Now for getting lighter pulleys, stay away from them, they will put too much wear on your motor because of them not being balance for it. I am starting to hear more and more stories about lightened crank pulleys ruining motors, so I would just assume stay away from those and just get some lighter internals. With the lighter internals you will increase your rpms and make it alot easier for you to get up and hit VTec. Also, don't over look your headgasket. I'm about to start building a D16Z6 with a stock compression of around 9:1, just with some D16A1 pistons and a D16Y8 2-layer head gasket(stock metal 3 layer gasket), I'm looking to going up to around 12.4:1. Now if thats exactly what its going to come out with, we will find out when its done.

If your going to turbo, yes you will need to get lower compression and probably upgrade your fuel system, I don't know for sure because I haven't looking into boosting a car before.

Either way you go, tuning will be highly advised. Yes bolt ons will give you some more power, but you see optimal gains without getting it tuned right. Not to mention, you can always get the VTec activation sooner than OEM if you wanted it to.

Thanks.About the paint job,wouldnt i sand off all stock paint first anyway,therefore allready peeling paint not being a problem?i have no access to a welder,so ya think most fiberglass then bondo would hold fine?
I'm getting my engine internals book marked.I am looking at the Nopionline.come store,and they have Pistons that have a stated rod length of 5.429",all of them do,and ALL of the connecting rod lengths are 5.433",whats with that,the pistons are made by JE ad are domed with a Comp ration of 9.8:1 and they accept NOS and Turbo,and the rods are made by Crower,does the length Specs differences mean they arent compatible,or is this slight difference the normal in this area?I also cant find the valve specs on the stock engine,so i dont know what valves to get?they have like 5 different sizes.And in all HONESTY,how much would a port and polish cost,and what does this do?and when you have your car TUNED,what exactly do they do,and how much does that cost?i know WHAT they do,i mean how do they do it?This is my plan so far,Body Work,then
B18c1,
GReddy Timing Belt
Crower Spring/Retainer Kit
Crower Stage 2 Camshaft
Crower H-Beam Connecting Rods
BDL Cam Seal
Eagle Forged Performance Crankshaft (5.6lbs less than stock)
Edelbrock Victor X Intake Manifold (gonna go,go all out right?)
JE Domed Pistons (part #133-2471,incase ya wanna look em up)
Venom High Flow Infectors
JE Piston Rings
SOOOOO,with all this i guess tuning is gonna be a must,i hope it dont cost to damn much,this is gonna break me.I figure this engine will perform great N/A,and i left the N2O and turbo open ended for later application.You gottta know i aint messin round here.lol.The only reason i am still workin full time is to do this car,soon as it is done,its back to school full time,and till then my bills are minimal,and i am makin good money.I HOPE to have the body work done and the B18 sittin on an engine stand in my garage by April,Done and ready to be swapped by june,july latest.But seriously,how is tuning done,and about how much will it cost?How come i cant find those little cheater NOS sytems anywhere?you know the little ones you can put under a damn seat if ya wanted,just a little boost if ya need,unable to locate,but i have seen em before.smallest i can find are the five pound bottles.Anyone got a Oline link for turbo kits?Low Boost ones?What is the best body kit site?i am adding all these costs up so i have an idea of how long this is gonna take,i cant wait to get the engine and park it in my garage,its great having that sittin in there,piece by piece the monster WILL GROW.Any Valve recommendations?What kinda shiops fo the post and clean the head or whatever?Cost?Thanks guys,the quick responses have been GREAT!

BTW all these parts are from nopionline.com....incase ya wanna look em up and gimme some pointers.Thanks

ONE MORE THING.....anyone know the paint order in coats.I was thinking silver flake on top of silver base coat with 7 clear coats?Does it go,Prep,Primer,Base,Flake,Clear?Any tips on Coatings?I sand the old paint off first right?I ASSUME to paint the engine bay i HAVE to remove the engine?duh.Kinda sucks i will barely able to be able to spare my car once for paint,let alone for the swap,only transportation i have.Maybe i could borrow my old car i sold to my Momma....hehehe....01 Stratus R/T
Thanks, Later

I have looked up and down hasport and i CANNOT find the hydro to cable tranny conversion kit!i must be blind,can someone post up the exact link,or hit me with the price?

Tony has some great info except there is absolutely nothing wrong with light weight crank pulleys. I've had mine on my engine that was like the one he's building and the high compression was stupid fast but it detonated and it sucked. So the pulleys went on the engine I use now which is basically stock minus the cam and I have been driving it like this for 2 years (almost 4 years total). So don't let the crank pulley drama scare you. Unorthodox Racing makes quality stuff and I stand behind their products.

Alright, well I could have been kinda harsh on the pulleys, but I have heard some bad stories about them, just main the crank pulley because of the aftermarkets ones not being balanced like it should be, since the crank pulleys technical name is a Harmonic balancer, but I'm sure there are some good ones, just gotta do some research first.

I'm still fairly new on the engine stuff, but I'm about to build me a race car and help build a couple more so I will get a crash course on it soon.

The paint orders are: Prep, Primer, Base, then Clear. The "flake", a.k.a. metallics, are part of the base coat. There are some 2 step base coats, but those are mainly true candy colors. If someone says they have a candy coat paint job, but only had 1 stage of base coat, its not a true candy job. Most commonly clear coats are put on 3-4 coats depending on the clear itself. A couple extra coats couldn't hurt either, especially if your gonna be sanding and buffing it. As for your old paint, you don't have to strip it down if its under a certain millege, usually 2-3 paint jobs...4 would be pushing it in my opinion, but you can keep putting it on as much as you want. To prep it, first I would take off anything you can take off with relative ease, i.e. taillights, headlights...etc. If you want the engine bay painted, you will need the motor and everything out that you don't want painted, you would be better off taking the engine harness out and try stuffing the rest of it back into the car, or you can find away to try to keep it up off the service, but then you run a possibility of it hitting the wet paint sometime.

Now for sanding, if your current paint is in pretty good shape, not too many chips, you could probably start off with some 320 grit dry sand paper and go over it and feather any of the chips or imperfections out. Once you get all those done, take some Laquer High Build Primer(not the best primer in the world, but relatively cheap and does a pretty good job on filling in spots if mixed right, approximately 50% primer/50% laquer thinner) and throw some paint in your feathered areas and if you had any accidents with the primer, lightly hit it with the 320 paper, might get some 320 wet paper if the spot isn't too bad(wet paper leaves less aggressive scratches). Now some paints you can actually stop here because the paint is thick enough to fill those scratches, or if you have a higher build primer, you can mask the car off and primer the car now, which I would probably go ahead and do. Now get some rattle can paint, something that will stand out from your primer color and lightly go over the car, you know how you see those Under construction low rider trucks rolling around with primer and black lightly sprayed over it. Your rattle can paint will provide you a guide coat to show how much you have sanded and any high or low spots. Get you a decent size sanding block, you can try to start off with some 600 wet or dry paper, if wet is taking too long, hit it with dry, and if that takes a little too long, hit it with some coarser stuff then go back with 600. Either way, to be on the safe side, finish with 600 wet, your base and clear should be able to fill that in pretty good.

Now if your ready for your base coat, go ahead and mask it and go for it. Before any one else jumps in and corrects me, there are several different types of primer, and several steps to it if you have the time and money to go into it. But using laquer primer as a main primer will work, i did that to a wrecker for a race track and the paint held wonderfully for the hell the thing went through, only places it chipped were where something drug across it hard or over an edge. You just gotta take your time on the prep work. If your not sure about doing the base and clear, if you do the prep work and prime the car, you should be ok to take it to someone else and have them do it, like MAACO or someone. Other than that, I wouldn't take my car to MAACO or some cheap place because they skip steps on the prep work, only way they can make money on it.

clawhammer


Scientists have discovered that most women will, at some time in their life, contain intelligent DNA. Unfortunately, over 95% of them will spit it out.



is the funnest thing i have ever seen

if you want to beat the hell out of the srt4's get a b16 swap and turbo it 10psi, and get really good front tires... your really going to need them.

Thanks alot guys...i appreciate the replies.
any word on the POSSIBLE cost of an engine tune and porting and polishing and all around cleaning up of a used b18.If i replaced stock pistons,crankshaft,connecting rods,valves,cams,and any other internal i can get my claws around,would that require having a shop tune the engine or whatever? would 9.8:1 Comp Ratio Dome pistons be a good natural aspiration choice,with a possibility of nitrous and turbo?I prolly wasnt planning on a turbo just nitrous,what pistons should i get with that in mind?What kind of horsepower could i put out of a b18 N/A with a shot of N2O?i'm looking for around 200 before a 55 shot of nitrous....could i achieve this with less than $5000?
Thanks again

If you're going to build it up, go with some nice 10.5:1cr pistons and all the rest.. pp, h-beam rods, pulleys, i/h/e, ecu tune and maybe you'll see 200hp N/A. Regardless, you'll have a badass b18. Remember b18b IM flows a little better but pp would probably do same for b18a IM. And b18b head as slightly more aggressive cams than b18a. Will you replace those as well?

If you're going to build it up, go with some nice 10.5:1cr pistons and all the rest.. pp, h-beam rods, pulleys, i/h/e, ecu tune and maybe you'll see 200hp N/A. Regardless, you'll have a badass b18. Remember b18b IM flows a little better but pp would probably do same for b18a IM. And b18b head as slightly more aggressive cams than b18a. Will you replace those as well?

I thought about buying a edelbrock intake manifold....would it flow better than the b18b IM?i dont know what i/h/e is,sorry?or pp?and my big question that is giving me the headache of my lifetime is what does tuning your engine entail,and can it be done by me,the novice?what is this hondata,neptune shit i keep seeing?no matter which site i go to researching tuning EVERYONE talks like evryone knows their little tuner dialogue and terms and crap....SO AGGRIVATING!Even threads intended for beginners i cant make heads or tail of what they are talkin bout.I have been also compelled towards the boosted b16 route....or maybe a b18c1 with better pistons,and connecting rods,then boosted.....instead of N/A,thing is i am still open to other routes,i just have a target power of 200hp,and as close to 200tq as i can get,before the 50 shot of N2O i plan on getting...with a VTEC engine,i want the high revs.BUT,trying to get a grasp on the inner workings of turbo and tuning is SERIOUSLY turning me away from the whole freakin idea of going that route!I mean no one will tell the basics through BEGINNER terms ya know.What is the maximum SAFE comp Ratio i should shoot for being able to run 8psi and a 50 shot of N2O without running into detonation?anyone know of a performance shop in the Saint Louis Area?Thanks

pp=port and polish
i/h/e=intake, header, exhaust

If you want to get 200hp and you're thinking about boosting. Get yourself a d16y8 engine... It's a sohc 16 valve 1.6 liter vtec engine. You can take it apart and get stronger connecting rods and lower comp pistons (stock I think are 9.6:1) and boost. If you go vtec supposedly it is better to be OBD1 so you'll need a modified harness (see www.rywire.com) or you can re-wire your own harness. You'll need a p28 ecu for sohc vtec. Get a junkyard turbo like a T-25 that's in good shape. Get a "log" exhaust manifold or use an "HF" exhaust manifold with custom made adaptor plate. You'll need charge pipes (2.5") a downpipe (2.5") and exhaust (2.5"). Or just buy a turbo kit with everything. There are some relatively inexpensive fuel and spark management availabilities. You can easily obtain 200hp with 10-12psi with this application. Go to www.homemadeturbo.com.