Trying to decide... LS1 or 427 SBC or 540 BBC
flatlander757
10-10-2005, 02:19 PM
OK, my 94 Z28 is at 195,3XX miles now, and I'm looking to at least get a new shortblock built for it. But I'm also considering saving some more and doing an entire swap. I've been tossing around the idea of having several different setups put in, Here are some that I'm considering with pros/cons of each:
LS1 (320hp 345lb-ft tq) (http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=21349&parentCategoryId=10763&langId=-1)
Pros:
-mounts up to my 4L60E
-is tame enough to live on the 10 bolt for a little while
-great fuel economy, so daily driver would be doable
-insane aftermarket
-responds well to mods
-with the right exhaust, would be a great "sleeper" :evillol:
-my Votech teacher has some good hookups, so I could get a crate LS1 for about $4000, but I'm unsure if this includes the harness and sensors/etc
Cons:
-doesn't sound too great, that's one thing I love about my LT1 and Gen1 SBC/BBCs
-all that computer crap to deal with
-still a fairly messy engine bay
Merlin 427 SBC (520hp 495lb-ft tq) (http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=28667&parentCategoryId=10763&langId=-1)
Pros:
-big displacement, small block= big power with not too much added weight
-very unique
-the magical 427 number :iceslolan
-tons of head designs available
-simple install, not too much wiring and crap
Cons:
-likely horrible gas mileage
-need to tune the carb often
-probably won't fare as a good daily driver
-I'd probably have to get a cheap beater car first if this becomes a project
-$9,500... so I'd probably be saving for quite a while
-I don't think it will mate to my tranny
-Will likely destroy the rear end instantly
Merlin 540 BBC (600hp 605ft-lb tq) (http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=28677&parentCategoryId=10763&langId=-1)
Pros:
-it's a BIG block... will undoubtedly sound badass
-it will scoot like hell
-unique, very
-big blocks take 200 shots of nitrous without thinking anything of it :naughty:
-would be worthy of the name "modern hotrod"
-would only be a sleeper when it's not running :lol2:
Cons:
-gas mileage... not a daily driver at all
-will destroy the entire driveline
-I'd definitely need a beater
-also $9,500
-won't mate to the tranny
-no problems with the heads ever choking it
-need to tune the carb often
As you can see I know that the LS1 has more advantages and less disadvantages but since I'm swapping engines now, this would be a great opportunity to make some fire breathing monster that would stomp everything in sight.
What do you guys think?
LS1 (320hp 345lb-ft tq) (http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=21349&parentCategoryId=10763&langId=-1)
Pros:
-mounts up to my 4L60E
-is tame enough to live on the 10 bolt for a little while
-great fuel economy, so daily driver would be doable
-insane aftermarket
-responds well to mods
-with the right exhaust, would be a great "sleeper" :evillol:
-my Votech teacher has some good hookups, so I could get a crate LS1 for about $4000, but I'm unsure if this includes the harness and sensors/etc
Cons:
-doesn't sound too great, that's one thing I love about my LT1 and Gen1 SBC/BBCs
-all that computer crap to deal with
-still a fairly messy engine bay
Merlin 427 SBC (520hp 495lb-ft tq) (http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=28667&parentCategoryId=10763&langId=-1)
Pros:
-big displacement, small block= big power with not too much added weight
-very unique
-the magical 427 number :iceslolan
-tons of head designs available
-simple install, not too much wiring and crap
Cons:
-likely horrible gas mileage
-need to tune the carb often
-probably won't fare as a good daily driver
-I'd probably have to get a cheap beater car first if this becomes a project
-$9,500... so I'd probably be saving for quite a while
-I don't think it will mate to my tranny
-Will likely destroy the rear end instantly
Merlin 540 BBC (600hp 605ft-lb tq) (http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=28677&parentCategoryId=10763&langId=-1)
Pros:
-it's a BIG block... will undoubtedly sound badass
-it will scoot like hell
-unique, very
-big blocks take 200 shots of nitrous without thinking anything of it :naughty:
-would be worthy of the name "modern hotrod"
-would only be a sleeper when it's not running :lol2:
Cons:
-gas mileage... not a daily driver at all
-will destroy the entire driveline
-I'd definitely need a beater
-also $9,500
-won't mate to the tranny
-no problems with the heads ever choking it
-need to tune the carb often
As you can see I know that the LS1 has more advantages and less disadvantages but since I'm swapping engines now, this would be a great opportunity to make some fire breathing monster that would stomp everything in sight.
What do you guys think?
kahjdh
10-10-2005, 02:23 PM
It would be best i think with an ls1. With how much work it would take with the other 2 that would be my choice.
KPot2004
10-10-2005, 02:25 PM
ls1
cuda_dude
10-10-2005, 02:33 PM
ls1 or lt1 rebuild
drvngstorm05
10-10-2005, 02:44 PM
you want the most bang for your buck? and by far the least complicated? take out the lt1, bore and stroke it with forged internals, port the intake and heads with massive valves, mean ass cam, tune it, then buy a 250 shot for those times you're feeling crazier than normal (which would have you dancing around 750hp)
no harness work, no fabricating, cheapest, fastest, will still be efficient (when you don't nail the gas pedal)
it seems like a no-brainer to me... but if you want to spend more, work more and get about the same amount of power... you're choice...
no harness work, no fabricating, cheapest, fastest, will still be efficient (when you don't nail the gas pedal)
it seems like a no-brainer to me... but if you want to spend more, work more and get about the same amount of power... you're choice...
Xenostalgia
10-10-2005, 03:13 PM
you want the most bang for your buck? and by far the least complicated? take out the lt1, bore and stroke it with forged internals, port the intake and heads with massive valves, mean ass cam, tune it, then buy a 250 shot for those times you're feeling crazier than normal (which would have you dancing around 750hp)
no harness work, no fabricating, cheapest, fastest, will still be efficient (when you don't nail the gas pedal)
it seems like a no-brainer to me... but if you want to spend more, work more and get about the same amount of power... you're choice...
:sly: Well put young padawan!!
Yeah Drvngstorm has the best idea of 'em all imho. Bore it, stroke it. Add some good internals and throw a 200shot in it and maybe some F/I and you'll never see tail lights again :D
Also it keeps you within your budget, don't have to worry about getting a 'bum engine' or something that randomly has problems. It is your car, no computer changes (maybe some small mods for tuning but nothing BIG like OBD2)
And lower down time vs swapping in a LS1 and stuff. :) I think drvngstorm has the best idea of 'em all, not putting the others down. It just seems like you are in a situation that you need a bit of money, while maintaining a daily driver. If you want a garage-queen then get the BBC cause thats what it will do most of the time while you drive around the beater. But for a daily fun fast driver, LT1 rebuild is my vote.
no harness work, no fabricating, cheapest, fastest, will still be efficient (when you don't nail the gas pedal)
it seems like a no-brainer to me... but if you want to spend more, work more and get about the same amount of power... you're choice...
:sly: Well put young padawan!!
Yeah Drvngstorm has the best idea of 'em all imho. Bore it, stroke it. Add some good internals and throw a 200shot in it and maybe some F/I and you'll never see tail lights again :D
Also it keeps you within your budget, don't have to worry about getting a 'bum engine' or something that randomly has problems. It is your car, no computer changes (maybe some small mods for tuning but nothing BIG like OBD2)
And lower down time vs swapping in a LS1 and stuff. :) I think drvngstorm has the best idea of 'em all, not putting the others down. It just seems like you are in a situation that you need a bit of money, while maintaining a daily driver. If you want a garage-queen then get the BBC cause thats what it will do most of the time while you drive around the beater. But for a daily fun fast driver, LT1 rebuild is my vote.
Link85x
10-10-2005, 03:49 PM
I was thinking a LT1 rebuild myself. With only a few mods, LT1 can be in LS1 territory. As Dave said, stroke and bore it, and you won't be bored with it. Would be cheaper than the other three aswell...
flatlander757
10-10-2005, 04:03 PM
Thanks guys, I know an LT1 would be easiest, but opening a 94's hood to see an LS1 would be just amazing :iceslolan But then again I WOULD keep the nice sound :icon16:
I found a local, who I think has the most badass streetable LT1 I've ever seen.
http://media.putfile.com/BRUTL-TA
That's all on a stock bottom end :eek7:
So maybe there is hope :icon16: If I do indeed stick with an LT1, I would like to at least go to a 383 setup. I'm thinking this:
-Golen Engine Service 383 shortblock (http://www.golenengineservice.com/html/lt_short_blocks.html)
-LE3 heads (http://www.eportworks.com/LT1LE3.htm)
(I'm not sure if the cam in that package would be right for a 383, so that will determine if I get the entire LE3 package or just the heads done)
-Pacesetter coated LT headers and some CAI(I'll buy these before I even get the engine... may as well make open up the power of my stock engine for now right?
-I like having decent highway gears, so I'd like to stick with the 3.23s for the time being, so about what size stall converter would I need? I'm thinking 3200-3500?
-New wires/plugs/injectors/58mm TB/ported intake at the time of install
-Dyno tuning
It would probably be wise to get some subframe connectors and maybe adjustable LCAs/panhard rod before all of this stuff?
Would a larger fuel pump be needed?
I'm not too good at making lists of all that is needed, but what else would be missing engine-wise aside from whats listed up top? I believe a new timing chain would be needed as well for example.
I found a local, who I think has the most badass streetable LT1 I've ever seen.
http://media.putfile.com/BRUTL-TA
That's all on a stock bottom end :eek7:
So maybe there is hope :icon16: If I do indeed stick with an LT1, I would like to at least go to a 383 setup. I'm thinking this:
-Golen Engine Service 383 shortblock (http://www.golenengineservice.com/html/lt_short_blocks.html)
-LE3 heads (http://www.eportworks.com/LT1LE3.htm)
(I'm not sure if the cam in that package would be right for a 383, so that will determine if I get the entire LE3 package or just the heads done)
-Pacesetter coated LT headers and some CAI(I'll buy these before I even get the engine... may as well make open up the power of my stock engine for now right?
-I like having decent highway gears, so I'd like to stick with the 3.23s for the time being, so about what size stall converter would I need? I'm thinking 3200-3500?
-New wires/plugs/injectors/58mm TB/ported intake at the time of install
-Dyno tuning
It would probably be wise to get some subframe connectors and maybe adjustable LCAs/panhard rod before all of this stuff?
Would a larger fuel pump be needed?
I'm not too good at making lists of all that is needed, but what else would be missing engine-wise aside from whats listed up top? I believe a new timing chain would be needed as well for example.
Savage Messiah
10-10-2005, 04:48 PM
3.8 :bananadie
drvngstorm05
10-10-2005, 05:16 PM
lol i try to be the voice of reason around these parts... when i'm not bonging a beer... :icon16:
cooltc2004
10-10-2005, 06:04 PM
Well, I would go with the BBC, but thats just me :D
Genopsyde
10-10-2005, 06:12 PM
good luck getting that big block to fit in that cramped little engine bay.
flatlander757
10-10-2005, 06:20 PM
Xenostalgia
10-10-2005, 06:22 PM
Looks like alot of custom work flatty
-The Stig-
10-10-2005, 06:24 PM
How about a LS2 outta a wrecked GTO/Vette/SSR?
Given time, they'll start showing up at places like this: http://www.hpsalvage.com/
Or on Ebay...
Personally, I'd go LT1 rebuild my friend. Cheapest of all options and would still perform bitchin.
Given time, they'll start showing up at places like this: http://www.hpsalvage.com/
Or on Ebay...
Personally, I'd go LT1 rebuild my friend. Cheapest of all options and would still perform bitchin.
-The Stig-
10-10-2005, 06:25 PM
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39010
:iceslolan
That's a small block.
Valve covers give it away... I should know, I have the same Valvecovers on my 383.
:iceslolan
That's a small block.
Valve covers give it away... I should know, I have the same Valvecovers on my 383.
-The Stig-
10-10-2005, 06:28 PM
Genopsyde
10-10-2005, 06:30 PM
same ones I plan on using, along with timing cover and air cleaner.
Xenostalgia
10-10-2005, 06:32 PM
hey redneck is your 383 a bored LS1?
-The Stig-
10-10-2005, 06:43 PM
Shit no mangg... she's an old school extra iron block and head beast.
Never fired it though, sitting in my Nova waiting when I get off my ass to put it all back together. Meh... rather drive than wrench.
Never fired it though, sitting in my Nova waiting when I get off my ass to put it all back together. Meh... rather drive than wrench.
flatlander757
10-10-2005, 06:46 PM
OK then...
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17629
:smile:
But anyways, what do you guys think of my build up idea?
I'm thinking in this order as money allows:
-headers along w/ basic tuneup(plugs/wires/O2s)
-get it rebuilt as a 355 w/ hyper e. pistons
-subframes, adjustable LCAs, adjustable PHR
-spend most of my money doing a full Advanced Induction package and a torque converter at the same time
-moser 12 bolt rear end
All of this while still retaining the stock salad shooters and everything. Sleepers are just badass :evillol:
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17629
:smile:
But anyways, what do you guys think of my build up idea?
I'm thinking in this order as money allows:
-headers along w/ basic tuneup(plugs/wires/O2s)
-get it rebuilt as a 355 w/ hyper e. pistons
-subframes, adjustable LCAs, adjustable PHR
-spend most of my money doing a full Advanced Induction package and a torque converter at the same time
-moser 12 bolt rear end
All of this while still retaining the stock salad shooters and everything. Sleepers are just badass :evillol:
Xenostalgia
10-10-2005, 06:48 PM
....There is no way you'll be able to keep a BBC in your 4g and retaining a 'sleeper' look.
1: you'll need a huge cowl.
2: Look at that pic, no windshield wipers. Thats first thing I look for to see if someone is a sleeper or not!!
1: you'll need a huge cowl.
2: Look at that pic, no windshield wipers. Thats first thing I look for to see if someone is a sleeper or not!!
-The Stig-
10-10-2005, 06:50 PM
I couldn't imagine having to do a plug change on that thing, or god forbid... a exhaust manifold gasket change.
omfg... game over.
omfg... game over.
Rally Sport
10-10-2005, 07:10 PM
I couldn't imagine having to do a plug change on that thing, or god forbid... a exhaust manifold gasket change.
omfg... game over.
Yeah.. thats just.. damn, i'd sell the car. :lol:
I'd go with an Ls1 or what Dave said with the Lt1, least amount of work with both of em, really.
omfg... game over.
Yeah.. thats just.. damn, i'd sell the car. :lol:
I'd go with an Ls1 or what Dave said with the Lt1, least amount of work with both of em, really.
flatlander757
10-10-2005, 07:19 PM
but... it's neato? :lol2:
I want a sleeper mainly if I remain LT1/LS1 based.
The BBC is definitely out of the picture, and probably SBC for now too.
Since a 383 shortblock and a 350 shortblock cost the same at Golen, would there be any reason to not go for the stroker? I think the only difference would be that if I were to purchase a 383, it would mandate a H/C swap immediately. Though maybe a Golen 383 longblock would be a good route for that.
I want a sleeper mainly if I remain LT1/LS1 based.
The BBC is definitely out of the picture, and probably SBC for now too.
Since a 383 shortblock and a 350 shortblock cost the same at Golen, would there be any reason to not go for the stroker? I think the only difference would be that if I were to purchase a 383, it would mandate a H/C swap immediately. Though maybe a Golen 383 longblock would be a good route for that.
Genopsyde
10-10-2005, 07:25 PM
go for the 383, if you're gonna put all this effort into it, you might as well go the whole 9.
drvngstorm05
10-10-2005, 07:35 PM
get the longblock, gm high tech performance gave golen alot of praise for their 383 long block
FormulaLT1
10-10-2005, 09:31 PM
I couldn't imagine having to do a plug change on that thing, or god forbid... a exhaust manifold gasket change.
omfg... game over.
Who the f*ck left the door open again :rolleyes: , Look what happens when you leave the Camaro forum door open, Anyone with a camaro will just stroll right in :p
omfg... game over.
Who the f*ck left the door open again :rolleyes: , Look what happens when you leave the Camaro forum door open, Anyone with a camaro will just stroll right in :p
Earlsfat
10-10-2005, 10:07 PM
I'm with Dave too... BUT I speak from experience. Big Blocks = Big Fun & big repair bills & big fuel bills & big headaches when they break.
Big blocks are great, but a little impractical. I bought mine because I live 3 miles from work and wanted a mean commuting car. (And because I've alwasy wanted a 70). See my "Opinions?" thread. Sumbich hasn't clocked more than 50 miles in 6 months (3-5 miles a pop) just to try and figure out what's wrong. When it's right you can't beat it, but it's expensive and when they break... they break big.
Like IROC once said... drive a race car, wrench on a race car. My 2¢
Big blocks are great, but a little impractical. I bought mine because I live 3 miles from work and wanted a mean commuting car. (And because I've alwasy wanted a 70). See my "Opinions?" thread. Sumbich hasn't clocked more than 50 miles in 6 months (3-5 miles a pop) just to try and figure out what's wrong. When it's right you can't beat it, but it's expensive and when they break... they break big.
Like IROC once said... drive a race car, wrench on a race car. My 2¢
-The Stig-
10-11-2005, 12:46 AM
Who the f*ck left the door open again :rolleyes: , Look what happens when you leave the Camaro forum door open, Anyone with a camaro will just stroll right in :p
Wuv you too John... :iceslolan
Wuv you too John... :iceslolan
Rally Sport
10-11-2005, 01:38 AM
Who the f*ck left the door open again :rolleyes: , Look what happens when you leave the Camaro forum door open, Anyone with a camaro will just stroll right in :p
Eh.. I blame Xeno, just because he hasnt been taking his meds lately.
Eh.. I blame Xeno, just because he hasnt been taking his meds lately.
FormulaLT1
10-11-2005, 08:28 AM
Xenostalgia
10-11-2005, 10:12 AM
lol shut up rally and those three goblins behind you holding up signs arn't helping your arguement either!
SG007
10-11-2005, 11:05 AM
Gentlemen, gentlemen....let's keep it clean, there are women around! hehe Bitch, put in that 427 and your lady will get up and dance! :naughty:
Savage Messiah
10-11-2005, 12:21 PM
lol shut up rally and those three goblins behind you holding up signs arn't helping your arguement either!
wow.
wow.
Link85x
10-11-2005, 12:22 PM
but... it's neato? :lol2:
I want a sleeper mainly if I remain LT1/LS1 based.
The BBC is definitely out of the picture, and probably SBC for now too.
Since a 383 shortblock and a 350 shortblock cost the same at Golen, would there be any reason to not go for the stroker? I think the only difference would be that if I were to purchase a 383, it would mandate a H/C swap immediately. Though maybe a Golen 383 longblock would be a good route for that.
Take off Z28 badges, put on RS ones, insta sleeper, w/the rebuilt LT1/LS1 of cousre. No exterior changes, except for badges.
I want a sleeper mainly if I remain LT1/LS1 based.
The BBC is definitely out of the picture, and probably SBC for now too.
Since a 383 shortblock and a 350 shortblock cost the same at Golen, would there be any reason to not go for the stroker? I think the only difference would be that if I were to purchase a 383, it would mandate a H/C swap immediately. Though maybe a Golen 383 longblock would be a good route for that.
Take off Z28 badges, put on RS ones, insta sleeper, w/the rebuilt LT1/LS1 of cousre. No exterior changes, except for badges.
Rally Sport
10-11-2005, 01:20 PM
Take off Z28 badges, put on RS ones, insta sleeper, w/the rebuilt LT1/LS1 of cousre. No exterior changes, except for badges.
Eh.. actually he'd just take off the Z28 and put on Camaro badges.. that or just not put any new badges on at all, thats how alot of 4th gens are.
Eh.. actually he'd just take off the Z28 and put on Camaro badges.. that or just not put any new badges on at all, thats how alot of 4th gens are.
flatlander757
10-11-2005, 01:28 PM
I'll probably wait until I have the $$ for a paintjob before I tear any badges off, but yes I plan on it.
Between a 350 and 383 long block, what would the difference be $$-wise regarding the supporting hardware I'd need?
Between a 350 and 383 long block, what would the difference be $$-wise regarding the supporting hardware I'd need?
Rally Sport
10-11-2005, 01:40 PM
Hm.. what color? If you do paint it, get it black! Or a nice dark green.. just dont get it red.. I dont think 93-97 Camaros look good in red.
drvngstorm05
10-11-2005, 04:27 PM
my car has RS badges... its a sleeper until it starts up...
flatlander757
10-11-2005, 04:41 PM
I think I'll keep the same color, for one it's cheaper since I won't need the door jambs done, and for another it's a pretty rare color and I dig it! :iceslolan
Savage Messiah
10-11-2005, 05:16 PM
Hm.. what color? If you do paint it, get it black! Or a nice dark green.. just dont get it red.. I dont think 93-97 Camaros look good in red.
:eek:
:eek:
Rally Sport
10-11-2005, 05:30 PM
:eek:
THATS RIGHT, I SAID IT!
THATS RIGHT, I SAID IT!
FormulaLT1
10-11-2005, 05:33 PM
Don't worry Kasey, thats coming from a person that thinks his opinion is the only one that matters :rolleyes:.
Xenostalgia
10-11-2005, 05:33 PM
Hey I didn't say anything about it... oh way... Rally's hahah... gotcha John...
Rally Sport
10-11-2005, 05:36 PM
Don't worry Kasey, thats coming from a person that thinks his opinion is the only one that matters :rolleyes:.
Well then call me George Bush! :icon16:
Well then call me George Bush! :icon16:
FormulaLT1
10-11-2005, 05:37 PM
I have plenty of names for you, none of which are George Bush :eek:
:p
:p
Rally Sport
10-11-2005, 05:40 PM
As long as one of them isnt Honey Buns.. because that's what you call Kasey.
FormulaLT1
10-11-2005, 05:44 PM
Your right, that could get confusing.
Huh :dunno:
Wait a minute, I got it. How about I just call you Lard Ass :iceslolan
Huh :dunno:
Wait a minute, I got it. How about I just call you Lard Ass :iceslolan
Savage Messiah
10-11-2005, 06:05 PM
hahahahahaa lard ass
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