GM may file chapter 11 banckruptcy

I was flipping through the new issue of the street truck mag and there was an article saying that it might happen but it mostly talked about domestics becoming future classics more then imports which I belive but classic becoming classics because there origin dissappers I aggree and dissagree the camaro is still bad ass as a classic but look what happend to oldsmobile and they had some bad ass rides for a while could the end of oldsmobile be a precursor?? I mean toyota added scion and there kicking ass in fact they droped the celica because of it come on GM lets light up with something more then the HHR and the SSR I dont want to here this crap

Chapter 11 really isn't a big deal, it's simply reorganizing the company and it's finances. GM will restructure their debts and drop other things that the courts will allow.

Toyota may have Scion, but come on now. Have you not looked at it? It's a plastic Acme Brick on wheels. Ugly as sin and the "customization" is just retarded.

I was flipping through the new issue of the street truck mag and there was an article saying that it might happen but it mostly talked about domestics becoming future classics more then imports which I belive but classic becoming classics because there origin dissappers I aggree and dissagree the camaro is still bad ass as a classic but look what happend to oldsmobile and they had some bad ass rides for a while could the end of oldsmobile be a precursor?? I mean toyota added scion and there kicking ass in fact they droped the celica because of it come on GM lets light up with something more then the HHR and the SSR I dont want to here this crap

Dude, I'm really not trying to be mean, but punctuation makes your posts SOOOO much easier to read.

I was flipping through the new issue of the street truck mag and there was an article saying that it might happen

Kenwood - I guess you haven[t been watching the financial pages or business magazines. Recently one of the largest magazines out there predicted that 1 of the 3 domestic automakers would be gone by 2007 in the form it is known as today. Both Ford and GM have tremendous unfunded liabilities. Last I heard - GM - on its own - was short 28 Billion dollars for its pension plan alone. As I recall - its debt level is over $300 billion (I believe the number was 350). It layed off/discontinued over 27,000 employees in an 18 month period that ended early in 2005 - then this summer it annoucned plans to drop another 25,000 employees by end of 2006. GM makes a dandy truck - but it has been a very poor business manager for years. Imagine - $28 billion short just in pension money as a single item. Both NorthWest and Delta Airlines are now in Chapter 11 - expect an auto company to be there by summer of 06 at the pace things are going. Which one? Its a coin flip from what I read. The last few months - they've all had good sales numbers - but bad profit numbers. To sell the stuff - they have been giving it away since early 2004 in many cases. Just my 2 cents.

yea I agree but it sells that the key to staying alive I think. however but why file? why dont they just say "where doing some spring cleaning after summer and before winter"

Recently one of the largest magazines out there predicted that 1 of the 3 domestic automakers would be gone by 2007 in the form it is known as today.

I had not heard that, and that is very disturbing

Dude, I'm really not trying to be mean, but punctuation makes your posts SOOOO much easier to read.


yea sorry about that, I need practice i guess?? :rofl:

I had not heard that, and that is very disturbing

the magazine also said that profits (90%) from the imports are going back overseas and not staying here!!!! I think that might be the proplem. 95% percent of Gm's profit stays here cheaper labor overseas more expensive labor over here. could that be another issue on its own???

The crisis for the Big 3 here is due to the UAW. They're an unneccessary entity anymore

Uaw????

Uaw????

United auto workers union

Uaw????

AKA United Against Work

Many large businesses are feeling the squeeze by the organized extortion from the UAW.
UAW workers make more per hour then most working americans, plus they have free healthcare and a pension...even when they retire, healthcare is of no cost to them.
How much do you pay?
UAW workers had it good for a long time, now the Big 3 want them to share in some of the costs (just like you and I do).
The UAW is not wanting to give into any consessions, so businesses are on the edge of backrupcy.
Now I know there are probally some UAW workers or union people on here who will blast me for what I have said, but lets be realistic.
A friend of mine sent me a story a from the news about a UAW forklift operator making over 100K a year and is filing for bankrupcy.
WHy because he is in debt for about 400K because he believed that the 16K a year he made in overtime would last forever.

Many businesses have had to lean things out to keep in business and keep people employed (important)...Big 3 want to do the same thing, but are sufficating by the hands of the UAW.

i couldn't agree with you more gmmerlin. many companies are in severe financial problems because of unions. i am in the transportation business and we have been appoarched by the teamster union. bottom line is we will shut our doors if the employees vote the union in. fortunately we pay our drivers well and they don't complain to much.

Kenwood - I guess you haven[t been watching the financial pages or business magazines. Recently one of the largest magazines out there predicted that 1 of the 3 domestic automakers would be gone by 2007 in the form it is known as today. Both Ford and GM have tremendous unfunded liabilities. Last I heard - GM - on its own - was short 28 Billion dollars for its pension plan alone. As I recall - its debt level is over $300 billion (I believe the number was 350). It layed off/discontinued over 27,000 employees in an 18 month period that ended early in 2005 - then this summer it annoucned plans to drop another 25,000 employees by end of 2006. GM makes a dandy truck - but it has been a very poor business manager for years. Imagine - $28 billion short just in pension money as a single item. Both NorthWest and Delta Airlines are now in Chapter 11 - expect an auto company to be there by summer of 06 at the pace things are going. Which one? Its a coin flip from what I read. The last few months - they've all had good sales numbers - but bad profit numbers. To sell the stuff - they have been giving it away since early 2004 in many cases. Just my 2 cents.
Out of just the two; Ford and GM, I would predict Ford going under first. Mainly because of their MASSIVE recall list they now have to deal with.

GMMerlin, I agree with you completely on unions. Everything I've read and studied about unions in college makes them seem completely useless to me. They cause more headaches and problems.

Don't even get me going on "union" bull s#!+!!! My battles to get ahead at UC Davis Medical Center has been worse with the union than the bloody university. I was told yesterday that I'm finally getting a reclass (aka promotion) I've been working on for sometime now. It'll mean about a 10% raise and it was my supervisor, not the union, that got it for me. She's also gotten my department equity raises, not the union. The union takes our money and does nothing. On the flip side, one of the the other unions (there's three in our facility) for the RN's is pushing way over the top and are doing more harm than good. They're also taking the money from the workers here in Calif and putting it into issues in other states, pushing the union's agenda and not the workers. There was a time they were a good thing, but if they're not careful, responsible and reasonable, they're going to hurt a lot of American workers and businesses. Now it looks like they're gonna kil the American Auomobile Industry.

:swear: :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear:

I actually spoke to my father on the disappearance of one of the Big 3. Chrylser/Dodge are relatively safe for now with Daimler. GM is EXTREMELY diversified (did you know that your refrigerator may actually be a GM product? That is if it is a Frigidaire, but that's only one example). Ford, however, while having MANY auto brands, is relatively undiversified outside of the automotive world... which leads me to believe they will be the ones we start seeing less of. But, even though I generally detest all things Ford, that would be sad for me. It's sort of like... without dark, there is no light... Without Ford, Chevy (GM) may lose its meaning. If every day is a sunny day, what's a sunny day? If every car's a chevy, what's a chevy? Evil is good...

I actually spoke to my father on the disappearance of one of the Big 3. Chrylser/Dodge are relatively safe for now with Daimler. GM is EXTREMELY diversified (did you know that your refrigerator may actually be a GM product? That is if it is a Frigidaire, but that's only one example). Ford, however, while having MANY auto brands, is relatively undiversified outside of the automotive world... which leads me to believe they will be the ones we start seeing less of. But, even though I generally detest all things Ford, that would be sad for me. It's sort of like... without dark, there is no light... Without Ford, Chevy (GM) may lose its meaning. If every day is a sunny day, what's a sunny day? If every car's a chevy, what's a chevy? Evil is good...

Actually, I think GM is more likely to file Chapter 11 than is Ford. Why? Well if you start from the top - GM's net profit margin is more negative than is Ford. Next - GM is working on selling the only item in its conglomerate that actually makes money - yep you guessed it - GM is currently trying to sell GMAC financing. In its last annual report - all of the profit side for the company - came from GMAC - and this is the thing they want to now sell. Next on the agenda - GM's pension liability is in much worse shape than is Ford's. Next - While Ford has some profitable divisions - like Jaguar etc. GM's car divisions are all needing updating or in dire shape. SAAB? Needs money and its independence back - SAAB used to be an excellent line till GM bought them. Buick? Well GM spent a pile of money (big money) developing the La Crosse (named after our town by the way :smile: And how much did they spend on the GTO development program for Pontiac or the G6 development? Piles. They gave away how many hundreds G6's on Opah Winfrey's show - for free - somethign they had no money to support such an activity. Now the rumor is that Pontiac or Buick or both may be shelved, dropped, and dismissed as entire car lines. And Chevy/GMC may see dropped product lines as well (the idea of a minivan and GM just don't seem to ever make a logical pair that produces robust sales. :smile:

Even the truck division of Chevy/GMC has seen major problems. How bad? Well - their 2008 is now getting "rushed to market" as a 2006/2007 instead - because they need it soooooo bad.

It doesn't mean our current Chevy trucks aren't good and aren't popular - it means that Chevy has done a lousy job managing - I mean lousy in really really bad. And they've been even worse at negotiating with the unions. Just imagine - by end of 2006 - over a 3 year length of time GM will have eliminated more than 25% of their entire work force (and that is without dropping lines or selling companies). If it wasn't for Kerk Kerkorian rumors and stock ownership - GM would today be at an all time stock market low. Single handledly he's been holding the market share price up. And think why. He'd put it into Chapter 11 immediately if he bought it - dump the pension liability on the government - negotiate the $300 billion of debt into ownership - sell off parts of the company to others - then come out of Chapter 11 with a streamlined company with little liability and very reduced union requirements.

Small business owners like myself - could never run our businesses like GM has the last 15 years - we'd be in the poor house or out to pasture. GM had the lead - had the opportunities - had the products and the technology - and gave up that lead on all sides. Just one small example - a tiny example of a big problem is my truck - the 2004 VHO 2wd. After I owned it a couple months - I emailed some 17 different truck and car publications about its features and abilities - why? because GM hadn't done it. Know what? I got several responses back from these publications (reporters and publishers alike) saying they had never heard of or seen such a unit and they were going to contact GM. GM desperately needed an affordable sport performance truck the last few years. And when they had one that offered many benefits at an affordable price - they didn't even tell anybody about it (nor could you find it on their own website). Just dumb. Even GM's own customer support website - repeatedly told me that my truck didn't exist (I still have about 6 of those emails).

I'm not saying the VHO 2wd was the same as the Ford Lightening or the Dodge SRT 10. But it COULD HAVE BEEN GM's sport truck candidate - with a pile of benefit features and at a great price point and handling quality - and the truck was never even considered or mentioned to the publications. So what happened - publications and media did comparisons of the Lightening and the SVT and didn't even have a GM entry - not once - not twice - but multiple times. And the VHO 2wd offered a more feature rich benefit group of price to performance than did the pricey AWD SS.

Last thing and then I'm off the soap box. There is alot of extra pressure regarding the 15th of October of 2005 for Chapter 11 filings. Why? On October 16th the rules tighten up for Chapter 11 flexibility - thats just 2 weeks away. Will GM file in the next 2 weeks? I don't think so - but then - a lot of people didn't think NorthWest Airlines would file by Oct. 15th either - and both them and Delta did a couple weeks ago.

Sorry for the soapbox.

White Lightening

Sorry for the soapbox.

White Lightening


Good info in my opinion but in my opinion the unions are "slowing things down." I mean how much more different would say are the 99-06 trucks are???? I remember watching car and driver and they were comparing trucks,The new ram, ford ,nissan and toyota truck and the chevy was dead last because of its old outdated interior and no big major changes with the exception of the new 4 door option, I belive the ford truck took first place because of the many options it had and its new styling. What I want to know is what if GM had no union system and just payed what they want to pay would its product be alot better and how does there system of opeation compare to the imports why not just follow them if there doing so well.

Good info in my opinion but in my opinion the unions are "slowing things down." I mean how much more different would say are the 99-06 trucks are???? I remember watching car and driver and they were comparing trucks,The new ram, ford ,nissan and toyota truck and the chevy was dead last because of its old outdated interior and no big major changes with the exception of the new 4 door option, I belive the ford truck took first place because of the many options it had and its new styling. What I want to know is what if GM had no union system and just payed what they want to pay would its product be alot better and how does there system of opeation compare to the imports why not just follow them if there doing so well.

I just think it is a compounded problem for GM. Union contracts really are designed for keep it the same and keep it in quantity. I'm not anti union - but I think the union contracts have really stifled the motivation to try new things. Starting wages in WI plants for on the line guys at GM is way too high in total cost. All the special benefits and sideline costs. And management hasn't trimmed down the work force until just the last couple of years - even though prduction capability and efficiency has increased. Think of it - wouldn't you think management would have recognized that theycan't keep making more vehicles per year - when the vehicles last longer?

Ford (remember - I was a Ford guy for most of my adult life) - has always had a history of re-inventing itself - the 97 Ford F150 set a trend. The Ranger. Even in cars - Ford is good at this - the new Mustangs, Jaguars, etc.. Ford seems to take more risks than does GM - the GT, Harley Trucks, Lightnings, Blackwood etc..

The important thing to realize in my opinion - is that foreign car companies aren't beating us - we seem to be beating ourselves. Honda, Nissan, Toyota, and now Hyundai all have major manufacturing locations in both the US and Canada. Most have several. Some of them have been here for 3 decades doing very well. Workers like working in them - the quality is excellent - and the focus is on design engineering, innovation advances, and engines. No unions, good pay (but not staggering pay), good benefits (but not staggering benefits), good management - and a theory - "nobody gets fat but everybody gets full". I don't love foreign car companies over domestic ones - but I respect their willingness to work harder and think smarter than it appears domestic managements and domestic labor leaders do. Remember - those numerous "foreign" plants in the US and Canada are using American works with American wages to produce quality product. the difference isn't the workers - the different is the leaderships in management and labor on domestics versus leaders of managements and labor leaders of the "foreign" car manfucaturers. One side seems to have alot more common sense than does the other side.

Think about it - was it smarter and more logical to design a Dodge SRT 10 or a Nissan Titan? And how come the designer of the Nissan Titan was a past GM engineer who couldn't be "heard" at GM - so Nissan snapped her up eagerly and instantly turned it into a profitable product - and then another product - and another.

I love my 2004 Chevy VHO 2wd truck - I just wish GM management understood why. Less giving away of hundreds of free G6 cars on Oprah Winfrey's show - and more focus on the common sense of their customers. :smile:

P.S. Just a quick example from the newspaper. An airline pilot - retired for a domestic airline - is 56 years old and gets $92,000 a year in pension - and is concerned because his pension will be cut a pile if his airline which just filed for Chapter 11 - dumps the pension liability on the U.S. Government. $92K a year in pension at 54 and 55 years old for a pilot. Good Grief - what were labor leaders and managements thinking when they negotiated those deals? This is a pilot - not the president.

White Lightening

[QUOTE=TexasF355F1]Out of just the two; Ford and GM, I would predict Ford going under first. Mainly because of their MASSIVE recall list they now have to deal with.

GM currently has 422,000 (yeah, thousand) retirees. Ford and Chrysler aren't far behind. I have a friend who's Dad worked for Chrysler for 30yrs. He retired at 58. He's now 88. Has had a heart attack and cancer...though is doing fine now. Think about it...his pension was %80 of his salary, plus free healthcare for life. He's now been collecting retirement for longer than he actually worked for the company. No one saw that coming, and when they DID, no one admitted it was coming to anyone else.

The unfunded pension liabilities are HUGE, and you and I will foot the bill for that disaster via taxes.

It's a mess, and actually, the sooner the crap hits the a/c, the better, because it just keeps getting worse.

Lob

No unions, good pay (but not staggering pay), good benefits (but not staggering benefits), good management - and a theory - "nobody gets fat but everybody gets full".

Yes, and unions are to blame for the staggering pay and the staggering benefits

GM currently has 422,000 (yeah, thousand) retirees. Ford and Chrysler aren't far behind. I have a friend who's Dad worked for Chrysler for 30yrs. He retired at 58. He's now 88. Has had a heart attack and cancer...though is doing fine now. Think about it...his pension was %80 of his salary, plus free healthcare for life. He's now been collecting retirement for longer than he actually worked for the company. No one saw that coming, and when they DID, no one admitted it was coming to anyone else.

Again, same problem line as above... UAW is to blame

New numbers out on sales at GM and Ford for September vehicle sales. Not pretty. -24% for GM and -19% for Ford. Previously on this thread, I mentioned that the GM Pension situation was not pretty with about $28 Billion of underfunding. Well now the new estimates are that it is $31 Billion underfunded.

We're all aware that after October 15th 2005 the bankruptcy rules get tighter. This doesn't mean that GM or Ford would enter Chapter 11 on or before Oct. 15 th of this year. However - we must be aware that both GM and Ford have continued a downward sales pattern (except for the brief summer of 2005 Employee pricing promotion). The net effect? You can't run negative forever. Ford and especially GM need to make changes quickly and inpretty considerable quantity. GM makes good trucks - but sales of truck/SUV have plummeted in September in this category for both Ford and GM. I heard this morning that Ford Explorer sales were off 50% in September.

One of the places that GM (or any car manufacturer) could make money is by actually producing a hybrid that could be plugged in, and was specifically designed to run off batteries for a 50mile r/t commute. There are mod kits out there for the Toyota Prius that allow you to do exactly that. It's something consumers need AND want, but in typical fashion, the car manufacturers refuse to produce/market it.
They also need to quit wasting money on things that have absolutely NO payback in terms of sales. My current pet peeve is the "antitheft" radio stuff. No one is going to buy GM over Ford because you can't move the FACTORY radio to another vehicle. I know it's small in the grand scheme of things, but I bet there are hundreds more examples staring them in the face.

All that aside, nothing is going to solve a 31BILLION pension deficit. I know folks blame the UAW, and they certainly are involved in the frey, BUT...so is the mgmt that continued to sign contracts, and so is the GOVERNMENT for allowing unfunding pension liabilities in the first place. Any of us would be in jail if we tried to do what these large corporations are doing.

Old school thinking. I'm just glad I decided to hang on to my Camaro a few years back when someone wanted to buy it. Good representation of Chevy at it's peak.

Lob

One of the places that GM (or any car manufacturer) could make money is by actually producing a hybrid that could be plugged in, and was specifically designed to run off batteries for a 50mile r/t commute. There are mod kits out there for the Toyota Prius that allow you to do exactly that. It's something consumers need AND want, but in typical fashion, the car manufacturers refuse to produce/market it.

Lob


GM did - the Saturn EV1. But they seem to have scrapped that project. It looked a bit like a Honda Insight... I actually saw one on the road here where I live, but that was a few years back http://www.eanet.com/kodama/ev1/

One of the places that GM (or any car manufacturer) could make money is by actually producing a hybrid that could be plugged in, and was specifically designed to run off batteries for a 50mile r/t commute. It's something consumers need AND want, but in typical fashion, the car manufacturers refuse to produce/market it.
They also need to quit wasting money on things that have absolutely NO payback in terms of sales. Lob

A hybrid is a fine goal to have - as long as it is not an all electric vehicle or a "power deprived" vehicle. You'll notice that the Toyota and Honda early efforts at all electirc cars have gone by the wayside in favor of true hybrids instead. Safety issues with all electrics is a problem - for owners - and for fireman and rescue people in crashes. The other thing - is if domestic manufacturers would focus on hybrids that are not small in size. Many buyers out there just can't benefit from small cars - they need hybrid mini-van choices and hybrid pickup trucks. A Ford Hybrid Escape may be nice - but a hybrid Explorer or Hybrid Expedition would save alot more gas on a percentage basis and would be desired by wide numbers of people IMO.

Honda's Odyssey passive cylinder process gives advantages to highway drivers increasing their mileage - and more importantly - it does it with room and no compromises.

We need and desire alot more vehicles that can get 26 on the highway (MPG) and 20 in town - that are now getting 17 highway and 11 city. Heavy Duty trucks (2500 and above) could also be passive cylinder choices with alot of pulling power that they are used to but don't always need.

Vehicles that are "commuter friendly" with better MPG and still able to be family vehicles and towing vehicles when it is needed. the domestic manufacturer's need to focus on mass acceptance choices - rather than just specific tiny high mileage choices in my opinion. They haven't so far - its time - before the domestic manufacturers are "out of time" .

White Lightening

Honda's Odyssey passive cylinder process gives advantages to highway drivers increasing their mileage - and more importantly - it does it with room and no compromises.
White Lightening

Isn't that nearly identical to GM's upcoming displacement on demand (DoD) vehicles, including full size trucks and SUV's?

Isn't that nearly identical to GM's upcoming displacement on demand (DoD) vehicles, including full size trucks and SUV's?

The domestics have announced alot of plans over the last decade - but it is the foreign companies manufactguring in this country that have actually delivered the products and new technology of hybrids. GM has acknowledged for years that they need better minivan products - yet what have they offered? We've heard for decades how we are the technology inventors and implementors - yet we see a much different story when it comes to the automotive industry. While we might greatly desire and cheer for the domestic manufacturer's success - we have to acknowledge that they've been getting their tails whipped when it comes to the creating of solutions for many of our vehicle needs. Debt deepens and domestic auto pensions may go to government liability while we "sleep at the switch". Our domestic manufacturer's average fuel economy REQUIRES that truck/SUV category not be included - or the domestics wouldn't even hit our own regulations for fuel efficiency.

What they have coming in the next year or two - is still a wait to see situation. Meanwhile Honda Accord Hybrids, Odyssey hybrids, Toyota Highlander hybrids and many others - are here to drive now.

White Lightening

Chevy has had a Silverado hybrid out since last year. I never saw it advertised at all, just happened to see it one day on their website. Just FYI.... maybe you have already seen this.

Chevy has had a Silverado hybrid out since last year. I never saw it advertised at all, just happened to see it one day on their website. Just FYI.... maybe you have already seen this.

I've heard nothing about them - except they were going to have one - it is coming it is coming it is coming - if there is one out there - it has to be the best kept secret GM has ever had.

White Lightening

I've heard nothing about them - except they were going to have one - it is coming it is coming it is coming - if there is one out there - it has to be the best kept secret GM has ever had.

White Lightening

They're out - sort of. They are only available in select states, and Florida is one of them. That is why it seems likely that a Florida driver came up here to where I am in Georgia. They're really nothing special... they get a whopping +1 MPG over the regular Silverado. If I recall, how it works is that when you come to a complete stop, it shuts the engine off, and the instantly restarts it when the gas pedal is pushed
http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado/#silverado-hybrid
http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/previews,view,Chevrolet.spy?artid=25784
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/chevrolettruck_silveradohybrid%5Bregionalavailabil ity%5D_2005/4119/model_overview.html
http://www.hybridcars.com/silverado-sierra.html

They're out - sort of. They are only available in select states, and Florida is one of them. That is why it seems likely that a Florida driver came up here to where I am in Georgia. They're really nothing special... they get a whopping +1 MPG over the regular Silverado. If I recall, how it works is that when you come to a complete stop, it shuts the engine off, and the instantly restarts it when the gas pedal is pushed
http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado/#silverado-hybrid
http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/previews,view,Chevrolet.spy?artid=25784
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/chevrolettruck_silveradohybrid%5Bregionalavailabil ity%5D_2005/4119/model_overview.html
http://www.hybridcars.com/silverado-sierra.html

Hard to believe they'd come out with a hybrid to improve 1 m.p.g.. They could have done that well or better just changing the PCM settings. Why do I get the feeling putting the word "hybrid" on the vehicle and MSRP sheet - makes for a bigger profit :smile: Its a shame if "hybrid technology" can't be used to improve performance better than this. Is GM engineering just too many compromises?

Hard to believe they'd come out with a hybrid to improve 1 m.p.g.. They could have done that well or better just changing the PCM settings. Why do I get the feeling putting the word "hybrid" on the vehicle and MSRP sheet - makes for a bigger profit :smile: Its a shame if "hybrid technology" can't be used to improve performance better than this. Is GM engineering just too many compromises?

Yeah, but I sort of see this as a stepping stone model... basically to get their feet wet in a full size truck. Like one of those articles said, the difference in sales price of the hybrid Silverado can easily be made up for in the savings on gas, it just takes 2 or 3 years - and that is doable. Now take that hybrid technology and couple it with the upcoming DoD engines, and I think we've got a real winner

Yeah, but I sort of see this as a stepping stone model... basically to get their feet wet in a full size truck. Like one of those articles said, the difference in sales price of the hybrid Silverado can easily be made up for in the savings on gas, it just takes 2 or 3 years - and that is doable. Now take that hybrid technology and couple it with the upcoming DoD engines, and I think we've got a real winner

The article I read required alot of assumptions in order to get any gain. Even assuming 1000 gallons of gas per year (their assumption), it only saved about $300 a year at $3 gas and the added price was $1500. A 5 year payback not including interest expenses.

But the larger concern is the added costs of maintenance, servicing, and parts. Sounds like an expensive battery and because the starter/ignition system is totally different - its going to be an odd duck compared to all the other Silverados. I guess the point I'm making - is why is GM just now - after all these years - just now - doing a stepping stone project? One of the articles talks about how a full fledged product is coming "maybe as early as" 2008 - so they are years behind. It would be similar to you writing checks from your chekcbook for 5 or 6 years without putting any money in - and then put $50 bucks in and call it a stepping stone after all that time.

White Lightening

The article I read required alot of assumptions in order to get any gain. Even assuming 1000 gallons of gas per year (their assumption), it only saved about $300 a year at $3 gas and the added price was $1500. A 5 year payback not including interest expenses.

But the larger concern is the added costs of maintenance, servicing, and parts. Sounds like an expensive battery and because the starter/ignition system is totally different - its going to be an odd duck compared to all the other Silverados. I guess the point I'm making - is why is GM just now - after all these years - just now - doing a stepping stone project? One of the articles talks about how a full fledged product is coming "maybe as early as" 2008 - so they are years behind. It would be similar to you writing checks from your chekcbook for 5 or 6 years without putting any money in - and then put $50 bucks in and call it a stepping stone after all that time.

White Lightening

Alright, but what are the other full size truck manufacturers doing?

Alright, but what are the other full size truck manufacturers doing?

Well - I understand Nissan who just came out with the Titan 18 months ago - has a hybrid coming out on or before GM. And Honda's Ridgeline that just came out this year has a hybrid to be introduced about the same time. And Toyota's Tundra is soon to be introduced I understand.

My point isn't how the foreign companies are doing - my point is the domestic manufacturers have been in denial - not for 1 year or 2 - but for a decade. And it shows in their finances and their employment declines. The foreign companies have been ramping up significant and large manufacturing plants in many regions of North America (Canada and the U.S.) - while the domestics have been laying people off.

The recent Silverado Hybrid is another example of denial. They are trying to "play it safe". We in the U.S. are supposed to be innovators and creators of new thinking and technology. Yet we're getting our tales whipped at our own game. Domestic manufacturers IMO can't plead that they "didn't know" - they just didn't care.

White Lightening

Well - I understand Nissan who just came out with the Titan 18 months ago - has a hybrid coming out on or before GM. And Honda's Ridgeline that just came out this year has a hybrid to be introduced about the same time. And Toyota's Tundra is soon to be introduced I understand.

My point isn't how the foreign companies are doing - my point is the domestic manufacturers have been in denial - not for 1 year or 2 - but for a decade. And it shows in their finances and their employment declines. The foreign companies have been ramping up significant and large manufacturing plants in many regions of North America (Canada and the U.S.) - while the domestics have been laying people off.

The recent Silverado Hybrid is another example of denial. They are trying to "play it safe". We in the U.S. are supposed to be innovators and creators of new thinking and technology. Yet we're getting our tales whipped at our own game. Domestic manufacturers IMO can't plead that they "didn't know" - they just didn't care.

White Lightening
1.) The Silverado Hybrid is out already - I saw one personally driving down the street.

2.) The Ridgeline, IMO, is not a truck... it's garbage and should be considered as such

GM, maybe only slightly, beat everyone else to the punch on the full size truck hybrid - no matter how you may feel about it.

Also, I got 3 words for domestic auto manufacturers: Rear Wheel Drive. People (me, atleast) don't get excited or enthusiastic about FWD cars. That is, unless they're part of the "ricer" scene. For me, most any car lost it's "excitability" aspect in the mid 80's when we lost all, or most, of the RWD cars. Chrysler seems to have picked up on this, probably due to Mercedes. I don't think (but I could be wrong) Mercedes has ever produced a FWD auto. The bottom line: bring back the cars people used to get excited about getting into and driving to get your sales and profit numbers back up. Why do you think Truck/SUV sales have gone through the roof in the past decade? They're handy, sure, but they always have been. I know for me, part of my decision to get a truck was that my RWD choices from "the General" were EXTREMELY limited. The V8 Impala SS was a good idea, but they left it FWD, which I feel was a mistake. Pontiac used to be Driving Excitment, but it has lost it. Our domestic companies appear to me like they all felt like they needed to play catch up with Japanese auto companies. In many ways they did, but in others, they should have differentiated themselves more. Now, we have a flooded market full of bland autos that none of which really do it for me. Just my :2cents:

Also, I got 3 words for domestic auto manufacturers: Rear Wheel Drive. Just my :2cents:

I agree. I own a new RWD Silverado, a mid 90s Ford ThunderBird, and a late 70s Toyota Supra as well as a couple of minivans. All of them are rear wheel drive and all of them have been fine for winter driving (obviously some better than others).

I'm always amazed how our parents and grandparents could drive on much worse roads than we have today in the same weather and same geography using RWD and have no problems - now everybody thinks front wheel drive is the only way to go :smile: :smile:

And what many also don't seem to grasp is both performance and handling issues are more predictable with rwd. Most stunt drivers use rwd cars for their stunts - because of handling. I use rwd because of predictable handling (including Wisconsin winters) - as well as better feel to me. My AWD Ford Explorer was a fine and fun vehicle - but my 2wd Silverado has gone everywhere that my awd Explorer went so far :smile:

White Lightening

Saw this on MSNBC website:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9651172/

Delphi filed for Chapter 11; Worries are now that GM may follow.

Didn't want to start a new thread since this was already here.

Saw this on MSNBC website:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9651172/
Delphi filed for Chapter 11; Worries are now that GM may follow.
Didn't want to start a new thread since this was already here.

What is really interesting - is that Delphui has several billion of unfunded pension liabilities also. Surprisingly - GM is responsible for some couple hundred million dollars worth - if Delphi defaults on them (at least this is what the media reporter stated this a.m.).

October 15th is the last day to file on the older preferred bankruptcy conditions. I would not have guessed GM would be considering this soon - but the stars are getting aligned for a real "crunch time".

No matter whether GM does or doesn't - I'm just glad I don't own any GM stock in any of my mutual funds or retirement accounts (I deliberately avoided Tyco, GM, Ford, Time Warner, GE, and a few others in mutual funds - tough to do - but I did). I just think Kerk Kerkorian is going to end up a vulture buyer - not a white knight buyer as most people think.

White Lightening

Saw this on MSNBC website:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9651172/

Delphi filed for Chapter 11; Worries are now that GM may follow.

Didn't want to start a new thread since this was already here.

Already started one... http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=467268

Looks to me as though GM is coming around to the RWD line of thinking. Notice the amount of FWD cars getting the axe and the amount of RWD cars popping up in their lineup.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/futureguide1.htm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051019/ap_on_bi_ge/gm_wagoner


looks like its not going to happen

1.) The Silverado Hybrid is out already - I saw one personally driving down the street.

2.) The Ridgeline, IMO, is not a truck... it's garbage and should be considered as such

GM, maybe only slightly, beat everyone else to the punch on the full size truck hybrid - no matter how you may feel about it.

Actually the Ridgeline is one sweet truck. They aren't marketed towards heavy towing or hauling. More towards the light duty of light duties. Alot of great ideas in that truck. Open the tailgate, it opens two ways. Look at the bed design, it's got a huge, lockable basement. Not to "tout" Honda, but for a debut truck, it's quite nice to drive and incorporates numerous ideas that GM could (should) take note of.

Here you go:
Wagoner can't be blamed for GM's sheer size. Once a benefit, it now is crippling because GM has so many retirees entitled to generous benefits negotiated over the years by the United Auto Workers union. And providing health care for its large workforce and retirees eats deeply into GM's earnings.
from: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-11-22-gm-exec-usat_x.htm

Here you go:

from: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-11-22-gm-exec-usat_x.htm


sounds like gm wont be the one to go down...... so it has to be between ford and dodge which one????

I am am A GM/UAW member, and I take great offense to what has been said about Unions. First if anyone believes that if there where no unions big companys would still give the benefits and pay they do, they need to wake up. The reason they go over seas is no unions cheap slave labor. We as union members do work, just because we are in a union that doesnt give us a right to do nothing. Delphis pension under funded, do you know why, when GM spun them off (they still own 51%) they gave them the money to fully fund their pensions, delphi promptly took it and built a factory in Brazil, and china, they are allowed under their chapter 11 to continue to send money from their U.S. operations to the overseas operations. If GM where to stop paying what it does or cut medical do you really think it would not affect you, every company would follow and cut wages because they can, and would have to because off all the money that would stop flowwing from the employees. Then there is the complaint that when we are laid off we still get 95% of our pay, do you really think GM just gives us that. No we pay into what is called the sub fund, years ago we neg. that our raises at the time instead of getting it on our paychecks it would be put into this account, so every hour we work we are basically saveing in case there is a lay off, thats our money anyways. there are so many more things that I could go on about the misconceptions that i could write all night, but wont because most will only beleive what is in the paper and still believe that big business will take care of them without unions, so unless you know for sure what you are saying about unions please keep it to yourself or ask.

Lets start with this little gem
Parking Feud
By Kimberly Craig
Web produced by Jenny Clark
March 9, 2005

Some U.S. Marines say they were surprised by the decision made by Detroit auto workers about parking. It all started with the cars some Marines drove, and what was on them.

The words that have some U.S. Marines in shock came from the man in charge of security at the UAW Solidarity House, on Jefferson in Detroit. For a number of years now, dozens of Marine reservists have been thankful to park in the UAW’s lot for weekend training with no problem at all - until now.

Marines at nearby Marine Corps Reserve Center say on Tuesday morning, the director of security at the UAW told them that while they support the troops, Marines driving foreign vehicles or sporting a President George Bush bumper sticker were no longer welcome to park there.

U.S. Marine Lt. Col. Joe Rutledge told Action News, "We received a phone call from the UAW, who support us by letting us park down at their facility. They called and said they weren’t going to allow or they would turn away some vehicles."

A spokesman for the UAW released a statement to Action News which reads:

"While reservists certainly have the right to drive non-union made vehicles and display bumper stickers touting the most anti-worker, anti-union president since the 1920s, that doesn’t mean they have the right to park in a lot owned by members of the UAW."

As U.S. Marine Corps Capt. Lee Cooper explained, "We’re very appreciative, but on the other hand, it’s kind of discriminating between, let’s say a lance corporal going through college can only afford a 15-year-old vehicle and it happens to be a Nissan."

Are these vehicles acceptable?
Isuzu Ascender
Mazda Tribute
Mitsubishi Endeaver
Toyota Corolla
Mazda B Series
Mitsubishi Raider
Toyota Tacoma
Mitsubishi Galant
Mazda Tribute
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Mazda 6

Unions are a HUGE part of the problem. The pensions and health benefits that companies have been more or less forced to pay, b/c of strike threats, is a huge hit to the budget.

Lets start with wages. All of this information comes from the UAW website
All of this pertains to UNSKILLED labor
So first you get a lump sum payment
In a tough economic environment, the proposed agreement delivers solid economic gains to UAW workers at General Motors and Delphi through a combination of lump-sum payments and base wage increases.
UAW-represented GM and Delphi workers who are on the active roll on the effective date of the agreement will receive an up-front payment of $3,000. This settlement bonus will be paid in the second pay period following official notification of the agreement’s ratification. In the second year, workers with seniority as of Sept. 20, 2004, will receive a lump-sum performance bonus equal to 3 percent of qualified earnings (including base wages, COLA, overtime, shift and seven-day operator premiums, call-in pay, vacation, holiday and other paid time off) over the preceding 52 pay periods.
This equals approximately 1900 dollars
Base wages will be increased by 2 percent effective Sept. 19, 2005, and by 3 percent effective Sept. 18, 2006.
Examples of Total Hourly Wage Increases
Janitor Assembler
Base Rate - Contract End $22.95 $23.58
Skilled trades tool allowance
COLA Fold-In 2.00 2.00
New Agreement Base $24.95 $25.58
Beginning COLA float .05 .05
1st-year COLA .32 .32
End 1st-year Base Rate plus COLA $25.32 $25.95
2nd-year COLA .40 .40
End 2nd-year Base Rate plus COLA $25.72 $26.35
3rd-year 2% base rate Increase .50 .51
3rd-year COLA .44 .44
End 3rd-year Base Rate plus COLA $26.66 $27.30
4th-year 3% base rate Increase .76 .78
4th-year COLA .36 .36
End 4th-year Base Rate plus COLA $27.78 $28.44
(Projected COLA assumes annual nonmedical inflation averaging 2.2%)

So what does this mean
Total economic gains from the proposed agreement add up to more than $18,500 for a typical assembler, based on a standard, 2,080-hour year. That figure includes the $3,000 settlement bonus and 3 percent performance bonus, Independence week shutdown pay, scheduled base wage increases and projected cost-of-living adjustments. It factors in the impact of pay gains on shift premiums and paid time off, but not on overtime pay.
What about medical costs to the employee?
At a time millions of workers are facing health care cutbacks, UAW members at GM and Delphi will retain full employer-paid health care: no cost-shifting, no benefit takeaways

What about paid holidays?
2006 - 2007
Nov. 7, 2006 Federal Election Day
Nov. 13, 2006 Veterans Day (Observed)
Nov. 23, 2006 Thanksgiving Day
Nov. 24, 2006 Day after Thanksgiving
Dec. 25, 2006 ----------
Dec. 26, 2006 Christmas
Dec. 27, 2006 through
Dec. 28, 2006 New Year’s
Dec. 29, 2006 Shutdown
Jan. 1, 2007 ----------
Jan. 15, 2007 M.L. King Jr. Holiday
April 6, 2007 Good Friday
April 9, 2007 Monday after Easter
May 28, 2007 Memorial Day
July 4, 2007 Independence Day
Sept. 3, 2007 Labor Day
That’s 16 plus this gem
Independence Week Shutdown Pay
The proposed agreement maintains the Independence week shutdown at GM and Delphi. During the week of the Independence Day holiday, seniority UAW workers will receive four days (32 hours) off at their regular rate of pay, including shift and seven-day operation premiums. Eligibility for Independence week shutdown pay is unchanged from the prior agreement.
Over the term of the proposed agreement, the 32 hours of shutdown pay are worth an average of $896 each year for a typical assembler.

Your dues
UAW dues are determined by UAW Constitutional action and are not a subject of negotiations. Dues are based on the principle that they reflect each worker’s cash income, normally two hours of pay per month. Lump-sum cash payments are subject to dues because they too represent cash income, and are assessed at the traditional rate of 1.15 percent, which is equivalent to two hours of pay per month. As a result, the 1.15 percent dues rate will be applied to the Settlement Bonuses, Performance Bonuses and Profit Sharing payments.


What protections do UAW members have against being laid off?
First, the terms of the 1999 UAW auto industry agreements provide that no worker can be laid off for more than 42 weeks for volume-related layoffs – a decline in sales or production – during the four-year life of the agreement. After that, he or she has to be called back to work.
Second, the 1999 UAW auto industry agreements include a moratorium on plant closings during the life of the agreement. In addition, the SUB program, which requires substantial payments to laid off workers, makes it costly for employers to lay off workers, and encourages them to explore other options.
What is SUB pay?
SUB stands for Supplemental Unemployment Benefits. First negotiated in 1955, this program is intended to provide a secure annual wage for auto industry workers.
Government-funded unemployment benefits typically replace only 1/3 to 1/2 of a laid-off worker’s former wages. SUB payments supplement these benefits, and are structured such that when added to government benefits, a laid-off UAW-represented worker will receive a gross income of approximately 95 percent of his or her take-home pay for a 40-hour week, less a deduction of $25 for work-related expenses not incurred.
SUB pay is fully taxable; state unemployment compensation is subject to income tax, but not Social Security and Medicare (FICA) taxes. After taxes, when qualified for unemployment compensation and receiving SUB pay, the worker in this example would receive gross benefits equal to about 75 percent of his or her gross pay for a 40-hour week.
UAW Supplemental Unemployment Benefits
Sample: Michigan resident with two children
UAW assembler hourly wage $ 25.63
40 hours gross pay 1,025.20
Federal and state withholding 213.65
Weekly after-tax pay 811.55
95% of weekly after-tax pay 770.97
Work-related expense deduction 25.00
Gross pay under SUB $ 745.97

Workers with at least 10 years seniority also continue to receive employer-paid health insurance while they are on layoff status, for up to 25 months. Dental coverage is not included. Workers with less seniority are eligible for health coverage for a correspondingly shorter number of months.
As of the second quarter of 2003, a UAW-represented assembler earns $25.63 per hour of straight time
The labor cost figures cited by the companies include overtime, shift premiums and other expenses associated with having a person on a payroll. This includes the costs of negotiated benefits such as health care, pensions, education and training and prepaid legal services. It also includes statutory costs, which employers are required to pay by law, such as federal contributions for Social Security and Medicare, and state payments to workers’ compensation and unemployment insurance funds.

The UAW has been losing members for many years and their stranglehold on business is falling apart. Soon the UNSKILLED UAW worker will enjoy the same pay, benefits and lack of job security that the rest of the American workers enjoy.
You will see that the American worker doing the same type of work (UNSKILLED Labor) receives 6-7 dollars and hour and no health care.
The majority of American workers have to pay into their healthcare, enjoy no lump sum bonuses or cost of living increases nor are they guaranteed any type of pay over unemployment if they are laid off.
And I haven’t even mentioned the JOB BANK that the Big 3 have to keep . You know the one where they have to pay workers who do nothing but sit around.
Notice I am directing this at UNSKILLED workers,,not the SKILLED Journey men/women who are union members.

But lets not make this a union only issue.
The problem is if GM doesn't align itself to the "global" economy and business enviroment, it will have a devistating affect on the ENTIRE country.
Not only will it affect the union workers, but every little town that has a GM dealer, supplier and any other business that aligns itself with GM in it

ok your pretty good at quoting stuff from old contracts and leaving out other stuff. We can now be laid off for 48 weeks, and as stated before we are the ones who pay into this sub pay every hour we work. Those the lump sum payments only where paid if you got your 1700 hours in for the year, if you didnt get 1700 hours then you did not receive this benefit. the lump sum was cheaper for GM as it was a one time payment, not an addition to our hourly rate. You also forgot to mention that we just voted to give up the rest of our raises and cola(cost of living adjustment) for the rest of the contract so that money can be put in an account to pay for the retirees benefits. If anyone thinks that it would be a good thing for unions to go away you are living in a fantasy world. Big companys will pay even less and give even less benefits if GM can get away with it. The only reason GM and FORD spun visteon and delphi off is so they could cut wage. nobody seems to look at the part about delphis underfunded pension and the fact they used the money to build the plants in china and brazil. Do you honestly think that if they cut the unions wages and benefits that the price of there cars and trucks would drop, less then 5% of the cost to make (not the cost of a vehicle) a vehicle is for labor to produce it. Can you explain to me why Delphi feels it ok to cut our wages but offer over 500 million in bonuses to there top executives.Yes we do make a good living , but I also work 60-70 hours a week. then there comes the perceived quality of american cars and trucks, they claim toyota is one of the best well guess what GM makes alot of them here and abroad inside GM its called NUMMI so for all that people think they know about the UAW and the big 3 ( actually there are only 2 american car companys GM and FORD, as its now Chrysler is now owned by Benz) they are actually lacking, yes I wish everyone had a chance for the same job and same benefits but as long as people think that the big companys are going to take care of us without someone looking out for us or us sticking together, it will never happen they will continue to send jobs over seas and charge the same price and get richer. Just look at wal-mart they really take care of there employees.

check the links

GM revises rwd plans (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=456408)

New 2007 Tahoe with fully-boxed frame (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=459926)

All the information came off the UAW website.
Don't make your life as a union worker sound so tough, you got it better than most American workers.
And don't give me that "I work 60-70 hours a week" stuff like you have to work that long...you should be saying "I get 20-30 hours of overtime a week"

I come from a Union family (Skilled labor) and I know the games that are played behind the protection curtain of the "Contract"
Just for clarification what do you do at GM?
Are you Skilled or Unskilled labor?
Do you honestly feel that you are being paid equal to the job you do (think of this as a business owner..would you pay someone the same as what you get paid for the same job)
How much per hour do you set aside for SUB?
Tell everyone about the Job bank.
What do you think about the UAW Solidarity House, on Jefferson in Detroit. treatment of the brave men and women that protect our country so you can enjoy the protection of the contract?

You said ask questions, so here they are.
Like I said " The problem is if GM doesn't align itself to the "global" economy and business enviroment, it will have a devistating affect on the ENTIRE country.
Not only will it affect the union workers, but every little town that has a GM dealer, supplier and any other business that aligns itself with GM in it"
Do I like the fact that corporations are sending more and more jobs over seas..no
Do I like the fact that more and more Americans are losing their jobs..no
But you have to look at the big picture here and the high cost of labor is one of those items.
To save GM, America and your job, maybe agreeing to more reasonable pay and benefits instead of entitlements might be the answer.

Do you honestly think that if they cut the unions wages and benefits that the price of there cars and trucks would drop

Nope, I think the prices of the vehicles would stay the same, and GM and Ford would not be in such a financial mess right now (i.e. their per vehicle profits would increase). Now, that is not to say that I think that is the only fat that needs to be trimmed from the payroll. There is no reason that the higher-ups in those companies need to be getting paid as much as they do, either.

Also, I got 3 words for domestic auto manufacturers: Rear Wheel Drive.

Pontiac's new sports car, the 2006 Solstice, has rwd. A performance GXP model will likely come for 2007 and the Solstice will be entered in sports car racing next year.

New Pontiac Solstice (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=377526)

Saturn will use the same Kappa chassis as the Solstice, but it will have more standard features so it will cost more.

2007 Saturn Sky (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=379645)

GM has revised plans for rwd cars.

check this link

RWD coming (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=456408)

Cadillac's CTS, STS (has awd), and XLR have rwd. The Cadillac V series also has rwd.

Cadillac V series (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=373720)

Dodge is going to make a new Challenger. They will have a concept at the 2006 Detroit auto show.

New Dodge Challenger (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=3587939#post3587939)

The rwd Ford Shelby GR-1 could be made after production of the mid-engine GT is done.

Ford Shelby GR-1 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=412677)

Every Panoz ever made has had rwd and the Saleen S7 has rwd.

Pontiac's new sports car, the 2006 Solstice, has rwd. A performance GXP model will likely come for 2007 and the Solstice will be entered in sports car racing next year.

New Pontiac Solstice (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=377526)

Saturn will use the same Kappa chassis as the Solstice, but it will have more standard features so it will cost more.

2007 Saturn Sky (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=379645)

GM has revised plans for rwd cars.

check this link

RWD coming (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=456408)

Cadillac's CTS, STS (has awd), and XLR have rwd. The Cadillac V series also has rwd.

Cadillac V series (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=373720)

Dodge is going to make a new Challenger. They will have a concept at the 2006 Detroit auto show.

New Dodge Challenger (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=3587939#post3587939)

The rwd Ford Shelby GR-1 could be made after production of the mid-engine GT is done.

Ford Shelby GR-1 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=412677)

Every Panoz ever made has had rwd and the Saleen S7 has rwd.

Right, but those are mostly "niche" cars. What I am talking about is make some "everyday" cars with RWD, like the Dodge Charger and Magnum. Those are sporty, but one's a wagon and the other's a sedan, so they would both make fine family cars. Like if Chevy were to make the Impala RWD (and they seriously need to)

ok your pretty good at quoting stuff from old contracts and leaving out other stuff. We can now be laid off for 48 weeks, and as stated before we are the ones who pay into this sub pay every hour we work. Those the lump sum payments only where paid if you got your 1700 hours in for the year, if you didnt get 1700 hours then you did not receive this benefit. the lump sum was cheaper for GM as it was a one time payment, not an addition to our hourly rate. You also forgot to mention that we just voted to give up the rest of our raises and cola(cost of living adjustment) for the rest of the contract so that money can be put in an account to pay for the retirees benefits. If anyone thinks that it would be a good thing for unions to go away you are living in a fantasy world. Big companys will pay even less and give even less benefits if GM can get away with it. The only reason GM and FORD spun visteon and delphi off is so they could cut wage. nobody seems to look at the part about delphis underfunded pension and the fact they used the money to build the plants in china and brazil. Do you honestly think that if they cut the unions wages and benefits that the price of there cars and trucks would drop, less then 5% of the cost to make (not the cost of a vehicle) a vehicle is for labor to produce it. Can you explain to me why Delphi feels it ok to cut our wages but offer over 500 million in bonuses to there top executives.Yes we do make a good living , but I also work 60-70 hours a week. then there comes the perceived quality of american cars and trucks, they claim toyota is one of the best well guess what GM makes alot of them here and abroad inside GM its called NUMMI so for all that people think they know about the UAW and the big 3 ( actually there are only 2 american car companys GM and FORD, as its now Chrysler is now owned by Benz) they are actually lacking, yes I wish everyone had a chance for the same job and same benefits but as long as people think that the big companys are going to take care of us without someone looking out for us or us sticking together, it will never happen they will continue to send jobs over seas and charge the same price and get richer. Just look at wal-mart they really take care of there employees.

O.K., I should stay out of this but... well, unions SUCK! I work for a company that makes and supplies a component to GM. I work at a non-union plant. My job exists because of the non-union plant. I'm thrilled to have my job because there's very little else around here. I,(skilled) make probably way less than half what you as a union worker make as well as pay close to half of the cost of my benefits. Well bully for you. But since GM can't continue to afford to pay UAW wages and benefits and may go belly up, my job is at risk. Thanks.

"The only reason GM and FORD spun visteon and delphi off is so they could cut wage." YES, SO THEY COULD MAYBE STAY IN BUSINESS!

"they will continue to send jobs over seas" AGAIN, TO STAY IN BUSINESS.

There once was a time when the unions may have been a benefit but now there are enough laws in place to protect the American laborer, that unions have long out-lived their usefulness. BTW, you don't think the UAW is just another mega-corporation making money off of you? :screwy:

O.K., I should stay out of this but... well, unions SUCK! I work for a company that makes and supplies a component to GM. I work at a non-union plant. My job exists because of the non-union plant. I'm thrilled to have my job because there's very little else around here. I,(skilled) make probably way less than half what you as a union worker make as well as pay close to half of the cost of my benefits. Well bully for you. But since GM can't continue to afford to pay UAW wages and benefits and may go belly up, my job is at risk. Thanks.

"The only reason GM and FORD spun visteon and delphi off is so they could cut wage." YES, SO THEY COULD MAYBE STAY IN BUSINESS!

"they will continue to send jobs over seas" AGAIN, TO STAY IN BUSINESS.

There once was a time when the unions may have been a benefit but now there are enough laws in place to protect the American laborer, that unions have long out-lived their usefulness. BTW, you don't think the UAW is just another mega-corporation making money off of you? :screwy:

Those are my exact feelings in every way concerning this issue
:cheers:

O.K., I should stay out of this but... well, unions SUCK! I work for a company that makes and supplies a component to GM. I work at a non-union plant. My job exists because of the non-union plant. I'm thrilled to have my job because there's very little else around here. I,(skilled) make probably way less than half what you as a union worker make as well as pay close to half of the cost of my benefits. Well bully for you. But since GM can't continue to afford to pay UAW wages and benefits and may go belly up, my job is at risk. Thanks.

"The only reason GM and FORD spun visteon and delphi off is so they could cut wage." YES, SO THEY COULD MAYBE STAY IN BUSINESS!

"they will continue to send jobs over seas" AGAIN, TO STAY IN BUSINESS.

There once was a time when the unions may have been a benefit but now there are enough laws in place to protect the American laborer, that unions have long out-lived their usefulness. BTW, you don't think the UAW is just another mega-corporation making money off of you? :screwy:
I'm with Blender. Thanks for shedding light on this from someone non-unioned but is at risk due to them.