The Welfare System

Do you think that the United States should have welfare for people that make under a certain Income per year?

Yes, of course that system needs other qualifications than just yearly income. Which is a much more complex issue I don't want to get into here ;).

Of other note, I also think we should have nationalized health care and a social security system, a democratic government's 1st priority should be to serving it's people. I am often amazed at the fact the most powerful, richest country in the world cannot offer all of it's own people health care, when much lesser (lesser meaning smaller and not as wealthy) countries can. Of course we just recently started trying to balance the budget, a feat the average 16 yr old can perform on his checkbook but evidently not the average politician (kinda makes you wonder).

I'm not sure about how the medical system works in the US. I know you need insurance.

In the UK we have the NHS but it pretty much sucks. People die waiting for treatment or because of lack of funding. People die of infections in hospital (more than normal) and corners are cut. There seems to be another problem in the news every week.

Despite lacking free healthcare, America still has a higher life expectancy and better cure rates than most countries - including the UK.

Yea, now they set a Limit on how many years you can be on Welfare, I think it's 5 years in your entire adult life then there no more money for you. They at least provide Government Job placement assitance.

What me and and my friends family were discussing was that if you earn below the certain amount needed per person in household to sufficently support, is that they should X amount on to your paycheck to have you meet it.

Scenario: Say your a Single mom with 2 children. You make $12,000 a year working at McDonalds, but it requires $19,000 a year to support her and her children. We think the government should give the $7,000/yr to meet the requirement. Instead of giving a full $19,000. And if they are un employed for more then a certain amount of time, they don't get welfare any more.

Because what it seems that most people do is Live off welfare instead of getting a job, because they make more on welfare, then at a actually job. This forces them to work, which gives a good impression on there childeren instead of seeing there parents never at work, they see them working hard to get money and try to support them. They learn that you need to get a job and not realy on others to take of them.


What do you guys think of that?

NZ has always been a great welfare country, and to some extent it still is, but the social costs are starting to show up in some major ways, and its becoming harder and harder to ween a large segment of the population off being welfare dependant. I have a lot more to say on this, but I'll save it for tomorow when I have some time to sit down and right it out properly.

Yea, there are loop holes to everything. There are ways my Idea would work, and ways it wouldn't. I think that in order to be able to recive welfare you should be in Low-Income housing already and see if you can make it with out welfare. If not then you should be able to recive X amount of money to bring you to the minimum requirements of living.

I feel that one requirement for welfare should be temporary sterilization. It should be setup so that you go down to get your welfare check, and before they give it to you, you get a shot or some form of birth control.
Having children is a burden on most people's budget, and doing this would help welfare recipients to get back on their feet again financially.

yea, but I think thats just a little illegal to require someone to be sterile just to recive welfare.

I think you should need a license before you can have kids anyway. But I don't think the U.S. government should be in charge of who gets them. I don't know who I'd trust with that. But, I'm off the topic a bit. :)

TheMan- then we need to change the laws. Notice also, I said Temporary sterilization....
But, I understand how the word sterilization can kind of hit people a certain way.....maybe 'Mandatory Birth Control' would be a better term.

I think here in canada the healthcare system is good

and my opinion on welfare is that everyone on welfare is a bum....

because those people didn't work hard early in life, we have to pay for their mistakes

I still don't think that mandatiry birth control would go over well with the Americn population, espcially with the people on Welfare. plus I belive it a little un ethical

there's no need for manditory birth control here

i think there is a need for it in china..... but it's still sooo wrong, i wouldn't do it, i don't think it's right

the mormons wouldnt be to happy with that!

i think if your giving people money then they sould have to abid by certain rules of the goverment its like when your young and live with your parents and they tell you this is my roof and when you live here were in charge the welfare system in america is totally screwed up when a women can keep having children to make more money and can live in rent controlled housing but some how manage to drive a new car and have a sh*t load of jewerly i worked at a grocery store when i was 16 and the kind of shit you see people buy with food stamps is insane they eat better then i do i agree with the statment of forced birth control i also think there should be mandorty drug testing and a maxamim amout of time a person is able to be on welfare
thats just what i think
sleepy:devil:

there should be manditory drug testing if you're on welfare, cause then you're just wasting the money....... you're not sayin that there should be manditory drug testing for everyone, right? cause that wouldn't be right, the government would so be screwin your rights if that happened

no drug testing just for those peps on welfare

I disagree that we (the US) has a responsibility to give handouts to anyone because of their life choices. I believe in helping people who are making an effort. ie the example of the woman working at McDonalds. I'd have no problem with the government proving day care to help her on her way. Also, putting money into education would be ok with me.

The lazy ass cocksuckers who siphon money from hard working people like me and you should be allowed to rot away and die. To hell with them. Make an effort to help yourself and I'll be there to help with $$ or whatever. But, sit on your ass? Die loser die!

btw the lazy ass cocksuckers who siphon money should not be confused with the lazy ass cocksuckers (or cocksuckees) in the Government. They're to damn good at taking our money and pissing it away.

i completely agree with yogs

Originally posted by gang$tarr
i completely agree with yogs

ditto

I also agree with Yogs.

bUt they do have a limit on how many years you can be on Welfare now, and they have Employment placement agencies to give people government jobs to earn some income. The drug testing is a good idea in theroy, but there are ways to get around it, like using a clean person's urine.

depends on how they test the procedures they use when i was in the army everyone drop there pants pissed in a cup in a open room being watched had to fake it and the pills you can take now are also tested for

plus it doesn't have to be a urine test, they could take a hair sample

exactly gangstar thanks for gettin my back on the drug test thing

hehe, no prob :smoka:

I think welfare should be very hard to get... You have to have some sort of disablity that keeps you from working.. Maybe that way people would be alittle more motivated to make something out of themselves.. I personally am tired of seeing people that sit around all day trying to figure out how to get on Jerry Springer, living better then those of us who work our butts off to just barely make it through life..What kinda freedom is that... I pay the goverment more then I get to take home.. So they can pay these lazy people that dont want to work.. Thats just not right.. But that my .02.

:greenchai: welfare

yeah i totally agree racing rice.... fuckin pisses ya off doesn't it

but i think it's worse in Canada then it is in the U.S. cause our whole government is Liberal.... they're all fags :D

how much does a person on welfare get paid in the states?
I think they pay people more here (bunch of SOBs stealin our money)

Originally posted by gang$tarr
...how much does a person on welfare get paid in the states?
I think they pay people more here (bunch of SOBs stealin our money) ...

I dont know, but I do know that it pisses me off when I go to the grocery store and the bastard infront of me has 2 cart fulls of steaks and all this other expensive good food.. then pulls out thier little welfare credit card to pay for $200+ worth of groceries... And they live in 3 bedroom townhouses that are nicer then my house with all the utilities paid for for $12 a month.. I mean WTF is that all about.. I say let them cram 20 people into a 1 bedroom house with a bathroom and no shower and let them live like that... hell itd be better then living on the streets..

yeah and that way they would learn to get a better job... then when they get a better job they get a better living.... bunch of freeloading bastards

Originally posted by gang$tarr
yeah and that way they would learn to get a better job... then when they get a better job they get a better living.... bunch of freeloading bastards

yeah.. I couldnt have said it better.

welfare pisses me off, it ges bums a second chance that will most likely be wasted on Booze or something, I'm with gan$tarr and Yogs and all the others on this one. Did any of you Canadians here about that guy a couple years back who was on welfare? It turns out he lived under a staircase in am apartment complex and he saved most of his welfare check every month, he about 2 Million CDn, after a number of years and then tried to buy a 500K house, that's what I call abusing the system!

Originally posted by Porsche

....Did any of you Canadians here about that guy a couple years back who was on welfare? It turns out he lived under a staircase in am apartment complex and he saved most of his welfare check every month, he about 2 Million CDn, after a number of years and then tried to buy a 500K house, that's what I call abusing the system!

*LOL*Thats funny... Hell at least he was smart enough to invest it... Thats just intelligence right there.. Yes its wrong, but its still smart..

i dont agree without totally getting rid of welfare there are those people who trully need it and us it as it was setup to be used, but there are also the people who abuse the system which give the truley needy a bad name. Welfare serves a good purpose but it is abused and this needs to be changed however bad it is there are still those who truly need it and we shouldnt turn are back on those people

if they made better decisions when they were younger they'd have more than enough money........ but i bet only like 5% of people on welfare actually REALLY need it and want to work.

yeah i remember i was watchin some show on tv last year on like fox files or somethin (how come that show isn't on anymore?) and they were showin all these people on welfare in california with like mansions and shit... i was like what the hell? they were talkin about the scams they were pullin one guy had a ferrari i think

i know there are people who abuse the system but you have to take care of the 5% or so and making better descions when there young you ever make a mistake when you were young i know i did i just happend to get very lucky and find a well paying job if not who knows what would have happend

Originally posted by Sleepy
i know there are people who abuse the system but you have to take care of the 5% or so and making better descions when there young you ever make a mistake when you were young i know i did i just happend to get very lucky and find a well paying job if not who knows what would have happend

I agree with you.. Thats why I said they should make it hard to get welfare.. There are cases that need it.. But there are more that dont need it and have it anyway..

yeah you're right...

but still i don't think that somebody who skipped 4 out of 5 days a week at school deserves welfare, the should have chosen to go to school then they wouldn't need welfare and they'd have a good livin..... i don't think hard working people should have to pay for people that screw up their lives

but i totally agree that some people need it, if there are people that have to leave their country for some odd reason.... they can't get a good job in our countries so they'd need welfare it's not their fault they got screwed over by their country... that's the best example i could think of :D i know there are other ones that make more sense

Originally posted by DantesInferno
It's a hard lifestyle that throws a lot of stereotypes and negative images on a person.


i never said it wasn't, i just said that hard working people shouldn't have to pay for other peoples mistakes.... if somebody snorted coke all through high school and didn't go to class, i don't want to pay for them, that's their fault. I also didn't say those are the only type of people on welfare, there are lots of people that need it and deserve it. Just that we shouldn't have to pay for the people that screwed themselves, if it's not the persons fault then no problem take the welfare, but if it's your fault that you weren't succesful then i'm not paying for you

I couldn't really spend the time to read through this whole topic, but seeing as nobody replied directly to this post and it introduced a lot of good stuff...

Originally posted by texan


Of other note, I also think we should have nationalized health care and a social security system, a democratic government's 1st priority should be to serving it's people. I am often amazed at the fact the most powerful, richest country in the world cannot offer all of it's own people health care, when much lesser (lesser meaning smaller and not as wealthy) countries can.


But what you fail to mention is that those other countries offer healthcare service probably below the standards americans are used to, and definetly below the perscription prices americans pay. Its only because America is willing to have the consumer pay so much for drugs, therefore funding drug research, that other governments can give it away at much lower prices. So yes, the US could adopt the healthcare system of other countries, but then the whole world would be at a loss for medicin:(


Of course we just recently started trying to balance the budget, a feat the average 16 yr old can perform on his checkbook but evidently not the average politician (kinda makes you wonder).

Balancing the budget is obviously not all that big a deal. What have deficts brought the US? Its the only superpower around, and hell of a lot more economically powerful/stable than any 16 yr old;) I'm not saying there's no benefit in balancing the budget, just that it might not outweigh the cost.

Apparently at least up until only a few years ago wasn't the Cuban health system rated by the World Health Organization as being superior to the US?

Isn't the problem of welfare abuse as much to blame on poor administration/management as on slimy rich opportunists featured in lowbrow TV shows? Even the impoverished have to eat somehow and hunger and need can drive people to do desperate acts. Couple the inexorable rise in social dysfunction, mental illness and substance/gambling addiction with alienation and disenfranchisement .. and sad to say but the life you save through having an accurately targeted 'social safety net' may well be your own, or your neighbours

And not just through violence (implied or otherwise) but affecting your standard of living through the threat and increased insurance premiums from property theft etc. Plus lets not forget all those hideous and highly infectious diseases swirling unchecked through the community - your community - because the poor cannot afford to access health care. Like it or not we all share this world, even with undesirables and 'non-producers'. Whats the alternative? Let fellow countrymen starve to death before your eyes? Or hide these unsightly wretches from view in ghettos so as not to perturb. Should we be more 'humane' perhaps and take the hint from times gone by and line 'em up against the wall and shoot? Where do you stop? What about all those non-productive older folk, slumbering in taxpayer sponsored nursing homes - get rid of them too? Let's exterminate our hindrances .. just like the Nazis did!

quote from V.S.
"It's only because America is willing to have the consumer pay so much for drugs, therefore funding drug research, that other Governments can give it away at much lower prices"

The American Govt. has for some years now been fighting tooth and nail both through the courts and through threat of massive sanctions and trade and even aid embargos against Africa and other poor nations to protect the US Patent System and thus the patents and interests of US drug companies holding said patents on anti-AIDS drugs, to prevent the African Govt. from manufacturing affordable generic anti-AIDS drugs. This spectacularly callous indifference to suffering clearly puts "patent principles" (read profit) over the death of literally untold millions .. so far.

Yet with the current anthrax scare, your Govt. proved its hypocracy by announcing/threatening the German drug company Bayer that it would break the patent held by Bayer on Cipro, their anthrax antidote .. unless Bayer capitulate (which it did) and reduce the cost of Cipro from I think US$4.70 to one lousy dollar.

Comments?

No one should be payed unless they're doing something for the benifit of others (business). Education should be free though.

But what happens if 'they' (ie: people ) weren't paid? True poverty is a generational abyss from which few potentially productive and engaged citizens can ascend

Is the inevitable enforcement/incarceration/social cost cheaper than welfare?

You're right about free education, as there's a blatant statistical correlation from low education levels to both the high birthrates and immature onset of pregnancy and motherhood from uneducated impoverished young females; which cyclically self-repeats

Welfare helps balance the economy. Some people out there abuse it, and that really sucks. I would say maybe 5% of the people that get welfare actually deserve it. Welfare is not suposed to be a way of life. It's suposed to be a temporary helping hand until people can get back on their feet.

I'm really attempting to avoid coming back here armed with facts, figures, and case studies, rather than posting half-ass opinions saturated with capitalistic prejudices and unfounded grievances. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Thunda Downunda
The American Govt. has for some years now been fighting tooth and nail both through the courts and through threat of massive sanctions and trade and even aid embargos against Africa and other poor nations to protect the US Patent System and thus the patents and interests of US drug companies holding said patents on anti-AIDS drugs, to prevent the African Govt. from manufacturing affordable generic anti-AIDS drugs. This spectacularly callous indifference to suffering clearly puts "patent principles" (read profit) over the death of literally untold millions .. so far.

Yet with the current anthrax scare, your Govt. proved its hypocracy by announcing/threatening the German drug company Bayer that it would break the patent held by Bayer on Cipro, their anthrax antidote .. unless Bayer capitulate (which it did) and reduce the cost of Cipro from I think US$4.70 to one lousy dollar.

Comments?

A short comment for right now. To use the slippery slope method of reasoning you employed, the following would apply. If patents are not protected then why bother having them. Since there is no incentive to innovate and reap the rewards, we should all sit around and wait for others to provide for us. No need to be creative or work hard. It'll be done by someone else. Its not the manufacturing of drugs that costs money. Thats the cheap and easy part. Its doing the research. Going through the rigerous testing and FDA approval stepss that cost billions and billions of dollars. If the companies that are doing this work cant make a profit then we will be better off.

Lets just go over all the amazing drugs and innovate techniques coming from communist countries........... hhhmmmm......... nope...... cant come up with any. Ok lets try some dictatorships............. ok, nothing there. How about some of the monarchies......... let see....... not since the mid 1750's...... How about some facsists.............. not there either. How about that, companies that can be innovative and reap the rewards develop the drugs that save millions of people. Dont assume I want anyone to suffer because of a lack of medicine. But dont think running people out of business is the way to help everyone in the long run.

Yes PROFIT is what is developing these drugs. Maybe you've dedicated your life to helping AIDS patients all over the world by working long hours for no pay, but the rest of us would like to make a living.

I live in california, which is welfare heaven. I work for my dad who is a sub-contractor interior painter. One of our accounts is a welfare/low income housing. These "apartments" are actually condo's. They are frickin huge places to live and would cost probably over 1000 dollars (is a high amount where I live) to rent for a normal person . Do you guys really want to know what they do to the inside's of thes places?? Hell the one we are working on right now, had over 30 holes inside it that we had to patch. in almost everyone of them, a doorjamb is destroyed from forcing open a locked door. We love them ,because we make huge amounts of money of repairing all their damage.

On welfare check day, all the people are huddled around the mail box waiting for the mail man to arrive..


We have painted some occupied apartments there and almost everyone has a big screen TV and a lot also have leather sofa's too.

And the sheer amount of kids that are outside unsupervised is just amazing :eek: I believe they should be put on birth control, because they have kids strictly to get a bigger check, not because they want to have a family.

They have all this nice stuff, and they just destroy it and don't appreciate it. why? because they didn't have to WORK for it. it was given to them. you always appreciate something more when you work for it.

it's so bad here in cali, that if they went and got a job paying minimum wage or something like that, they would be taking a pay cut. there is no incentive for them to get off of welfare.. thank god there have been some reforms to it to hopefully change that.

I think it should be changed to where if you are receiving welfare, you have to do like 30 hours of community service a week.. that way our cities have plenty of labor to take care of stuff, and they are "earning" their paycheck..

I know not all receipients aren't like the stereotype, but it's such a low percentage that nobody really thinks about them

Indeed, make a limit on the time you can get checks...2 years, 6months, etc... or some sort of rule that you have to find some kind of 20 hr+ a week job, (or less if you are in school) to get something...and about the kids, its crazy about that...sad too.

A brilliant thread guys,congratulations to you all!

Want to hear from someone who hasdone the welfare thing?

O.K., so I'm not the average welfare case.I'd been with the company five years, saved hard, commited to a house,life was looking good......

....and then the boss committed suicide.


It wasn't the performance of the company that caused him to do it,but as soon as news got out,the phone stopped ringing. Just like that.By the end of week 3 we were all paid off. I had 6 weeks holiday pay racked up,got paid in full. Went straight into paying up as many bills as I could find.Cleared the Visa,cut it up.Went to the bank, told them the deal.
Went to the NZISS as it was then,(they changed it when they realised that spell - checkers corrected it to NAZIS!).Oh,no sir we can't help you ,you have 6 weeks holiday pay at a very good rate, come back in 6 weeks.Came back in 6 weeks,yes you qualify - cheque in 3 weeks.Cheque arrived,thats not too bad can live on that for a while....woa ,this is for a fortnight? .
If you don't ask, they won't tell you .We were selling furniture before someone told us that the nziss would pay interest relief on our mortgage.

Took a crappy minimum wage temp job for 2 weeks.I knew they would stop the benefit while I was working,but the 3 weeks with nothing again at the end of the job came as a shock.Didn't exactly encourage me to go out whoring for mcjobs either.

Eight months and about 60 job applications later,I landed a job driving a forkhoist for a weedkiller manufacturer.Oh, the glamour! And less than half my skilled oil industry pay! Six months later,annual tax audit.
You have been overpaid child benefit for this year sir.
,we want 900 bucks back.But I'm only getting 300 a week at work.......

Six years later,I'm back up the ladder a bit and it's not so hard.The kids are old enough for Mum to do some hours , and I can look the bank tellers in the eye again.But it was bloody soul destroying,and traps too many people every year.I've changed my opinions on welfare since I've walked in welfare shoes.If youv'e never been there,its real easy to diss the less fortunate.Not all of us are born lucky, and not all of them are born lazy.

taranaki the North American welfare systems are wwwaaaaaayyyyy different then elsewhere in the world

there are people with big screen TVs, living in big houses, with nice cars (mercedes) on welfare......

they give people even more money in canada for welfare than in the U.S.

When i was little, my mom and dad were in the same situation in the 80's. My dad worked for Unical, as a lowly geologist. When the oil prices dropped, he got the royal fist. Those were tough times, scrounging for pennies in the car seats to buy milk. My dad was the hardest hit of us all. I didnt know it, but he was seriously stressing about his family. He took a job at some sales company, much lower pay, but it was work, and he was glad for it. He still feels strongly against unlimited welfare. I mean, if the economy is bad, yeah people that had work but got the cut will need some help, but when the econmy is boosting and unemployment is at like 4%, then you have almost no excuse to not be working. When unemployment drops below 5%, then it means that its a free market for jobs, and employers are really looking for people. But i have been there and i stand by my opinion. (see above ^ )

Originally posted by TheMan5952
Do you think that the United States should have welfare for people that make under a certain Income per year?

If you wanna end up with a national debt the size of Canada's, then by all means go ahead and have one :what:

Not denying that there are some real problem people out there,
nz welfare system has been vastly sharpened up by last right -wing government.From your previous posts,gang$tarr,it would seem unlikely that you will ever see the inside of a benefit office,or a mcjob for that matter.But then I used to think that about myself.I never got as far as owning a brand new car,doubt if I will now.The NZ system is hard but basically fair.It would be fairer to all if there were work schemes for those on the benefit,workers could keep some self esteem,slackers would be discouraged from staying,taxpayers would see a return and some of the projects that the government say they can't afford would get done.The only downside is the possibility that some people who are not unemployed could end up losing work to the workschemes.

Originally posted by TheMan5952
Do you think that the United States should have welfare for people that make under a certain Income per year?

NO!

Options include:

Job training
Career guidance
Child care
Grants

But absolutely no welfare! A hand out is worthless. A hand up is priceless.

That's all I'm going to say, because if I get started I will look like a raving lunatic (probably too late)