Eclipse 3000 GT Engine Swap Decision

Hey everyone, getting frustrated to all hell trying to find someone locally who actually knows what the hell they're talking about lol so this forum became my result after reading a few posts and actually being quite amazed. Anyways, I stuck this in the general information area to maybe even catch a couple 3000gt owners drifting off and taking a peek lol. Anways, to the point:

I have a 1999 GSX Eclipse shell heading my way, roughly $500.00 - $1.000.00, a set price has yet to be agreed upon. In the long run there will be the hope to have an 10-12 second 1/4 as well as a 120 mph touring car for roughly 4 hours long, breaks here and there but nothing to extensive, maybe 15 minutes per hour.

Anyways, considering how cheap the shell will be, there will be roughly a 10k starters budget for performance. Curious as to see the biggest Mitsu engine I can slam in this thing, enter a 3000 GT vr4 engine. If I'm not mistaken HP raiting roughly 300 horses 3.0L V-6, 60 degrees, Front Transverse, Twin intercooled turbochargers. Stock GSX, 210 horses.

Anyways, it's quite obvious by anyone an engine built to withstand twin turbo's have more perfomance potential in the long run. However would this swap even be completely possible while maintaining the AWD, the tranny, ect. As well as would this make a decent touring engine? Or would I be better off just going and starting a bonfire under my hood now. Keep in mind, I know I'm going to get a lot of "Just go buy a 3000 gt" comments, considering price, ect. but the idea was to keep an eclipse (personal preferance) and perticularly the AWD system since this will be a touring car dodging traffic left and right at high speeds between Las Vegas, and Cali.

A few more questions pop up as well if you guys don't mind lol.
How good is the aftermarket availability for the 3000 gt performance parts and price?
Common engine swapping prices? (I've been quoted 800 to 3k for a typical engine swap)
And, of course, how well do you think this would work for performance in the long run?

All the money your gonna spend to throw a v6 in there is gonna cost a lot, youd be better off spending it building up the 4g63. As in, instead of spending x amount of money putting a 300hp engine in the shell, you can spend x amount of money and push more then 300hp out of the 4g63.

you can build an 8 sec car off a 6bolt 4g63 engine. and i bet you will never do a swap

you can build an 8 sec car off a 6bolt 4g63 engine. and i bet you will never do a swap


And that's the end of that. There is no reason you should get that swap done, other than for he sake of being different.

You are going to go through a heck of a lot of trouble and money to get that engine to fit, and to run turbos on there. Like TreeFrog says, we've got 8 second 4g63's out there. With the dough you'd "waste" getting that V6, you could probably get a 6-bolt, a TRE racing tranny, a bigger turbo, and air/fuel upgrades for your DSM.

Anyways, it's quite obvious by anyone an engine built to withstand twin turbo's have more perfomance potential in the long run.

That is simply not true, the fundamental thought process here is flawed. Its kinda cool to say "I got a twin turbo V6 under my hood", but that won't settle well when you get smoked by a 4g63 GSX with a 16G. 4g63 potential and upgrades have been vastly documented, from the power gains from a host of turbos, to the detailed swapping of 7-bolt to 6-bolt, there is nothing you won't find archived. You even have 4g64 DOHC conversions, and AWD Spyder conversions. The 3000GT swap, however, is something I have yet to see done... if youv'e got money to burn, I'm all for it, but if your like the rest of us, trust me and others on this forum; upgrade the 4g63, ditch the V6. Just my :2cents: .

:werd:

Listen to the almighty Shpy.

There's no need for a twin turbo setup on engines anymore, one large turbo can easily and more efficiently do the work of two smaller ones.

There's no need for a twin turbo setup on engines anymore, one large turbo can easily and more efficiently do the work of two smaller ones.

agreed! :D

there have been many, many guys with 12 second 4g63 dsms for what...maybe $2500?? with 10k you could very very easily get into the 12's and probably 11's. don't quote me on that but depending on how you budget specific parts, you could very easily have a very very quick car, and for way less the money than you could dropping in a vr4. and personally, i'd rather say a 4-cylinder just whopped your ass than a 6, it's just that much more of a kick in the face

Would this DSM builld last a touring race? And yeah, that is true, a Bigger turbo can easily compensate for having a twin, however both twins can also be replaced with bigger turbos just the same. The idea is to offset the boost to completely eliminate turbo lag, as an example a 800 horses s2000 with the same custom setup. Anyways, I'm not justifying the swap, but answer the question as if money is not an object. 10k is not a capped limit, it is the first build limit.

If I do stay DSM this would be the outline for the 10k first build:

2.o 4g63 stage 2 long block - http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=1897&mods=21-958
$ 4698.95

walbro 255lph - http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=1163&;
$ 99.00

b&m fuel pressure modifier - http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=3511&;
$ 59.97

greddy dsm 720cc injectors - http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=3511&;
$ 439.99

aem 52mm UEGO wideband - http://www.slowboyracing.com/shop.php?sid=&cat=2438
$ 488.98

slotted rotors - http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=1275&;
$ 167.99

PTE SC-6152E - http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=2221&;
$ 750.00

Apexi TT - http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=2390&;
$ 100.00

Tial sport 38mm wastegate - http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=1735&;
$ 364.97

Greddy type rs bov - http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=2075&;
$ 179.00

Greddy profec e-01 - http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=1024&;
$ 548.98

(Zeitronix Zt-2 could replace the aem 52mm UEGO wideband, cheaper, more features http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm)

Also, one more question then, staying DSM, 2.0 vs 2.1 destroked vs 2.3 vs 2.4 liter, all custom modified by slowboy: http://www.slowboyracing.com/shop.php?sid=PHPSESSID=ae39120e7ed6c02a06a31bcc39c b1b66&cat=2538

you better leave room in there for a DSMlink, you'll NEED that if you plan to run 10-12's. and do you know anything about dsm's or car's for that matter? i mean not just maintainence things like changing your oil and shit like that, do you know the mechanics of a car? it's easy to pick and say i want this and that, but that is 1/10th the setup of having a 10-12 sec. car. you better start reading up now on everything you can about dsm's because there's a 99% chance that you'll run into more than just a few problems in this journey.

Trust me when I say that I've already met that conclusion. As for that being 1/10th the setup, a lot of considerations based on those parts are also to be taken. That set up has been rated in pushing 500 horses + (hence the 2.1 liter destroked can withstand roughly 650 self claimed horses, which is why I was asking for some further comparison) This does not include a rough loss when it actually meets the tires and pavement, maybe losing 100 more horses worst case. Not to mention cranking the boost up changes a lot of factors and numbers along the way as well. This is a STARTING PLATFORM WITH A 10K STARTERS BUILD please keep that in mind. Not a final product without further advancement.

Keep in mind that besides this there will be extensive, and I do mean extensive, weight reduction plan (not everything entirely legal... or safe for that matter) but all that is going to be personal fabrication, and little to no cost considering how I will be doing all the work myself, that's why none of that is included in the build cost.

As for how a car works, yeah, I work in a shop restoring muscle cars (big kick in the nuts I'm buying a tuner instead muscle to those I work with, but hey $3per gallon of gas is $3 for a fricken gallon of gas) turbo chargers are less my area, when it comes to a v8 superchargers reign supreme. I'm here for aid in my shady areas, so if knowing everything is required to ask for advice then I guess not a single one of us would be here right now. If you look at that setup and disprove then go out of your way 2 minutes and list a better part instead of asking the person if they know what they're doing.

First off, stick with the 4g engine. Second, on your list you need the following additions:
front mount intercooler
transmission
exhaust manifold
exhaust
other drivetrain parts?
intercooler piping
radiator
fans
MAF?
Depending on how complete the shell is you might need a lot of other stuff like alternator, PS pump, etc......
Also, the e-manage isn't the most popular route for DSMs because in my opinion there is a lot of better options like DSMLink or AEM or something else similar. Good luck on your project though, there is a huge amount of info for these cars online so you can always find answers.

I think you could find some better parts. Everything you want is from one shop? One small shop isn't going to have the best of everything.

You can do high 11s on the Evo16g. And that setup doesn't cost near 10 grand. If you've got a bunch of moeny I would just go to a shop near you (someone can probably point you to one close in Cali) and tell them what you want. You're gonna run into resistance with engine swaps and spending money frivolously with DSMers though.

again you will never do it, so there is no need to us to keep posting this. YOU WILL NEVER swap in that engine, i promise you that. You come in with 3 post and shoot off your mouth about stuff you know NOTHING about.

:loser:

Fastest 4g63 is faster than the fastest 6g72. 2x 20g turbos for a properly built 6 cyl tt =10s, and for the dsm, 1x 20g properly built =10s. Therefore the argument of turbo lag really doesn't adversly affect performance when compared to the 1/4 mile performance of tt setup. For spool, yea tt will be faster spool, but not always faster overall. That slowboy setup should be good for way over 600WHP. Which can = low 11s, mid-high 10s. The fastest stock body dsm is sheps 2.0L. I would get a stroker if you wanted to run a street monster, 2.4L would make spooling a huge turbo easier than with the 2.0L. Although I do like the idea of a engine running past 10k (2.1L) I can't think of any turbos off hand that would provide good boost that high into the rpms without being HUGE and not getting intial spool until very late in the stock engine range (5k+)

10k will get you a great setup, built engine, supporting mods, and a large turbo. Ditch the greddy inejctors, get FIC or denso as good or better for less. Also, check out BB turbos, they are faster spooling, more efficient. Make sure whatever you do for this car, that you get a 6 bolt engine.

Of course to get any of these crazy fast times, you have to be able to drive like a mo fo.

again you will never do it, so there is no need to us to keep posting this. YOU WILL NEVER swap in that engine, i promise you that. You come in with 3 post and shoot off your mouth about stuff you know NOTHING about.

:loser:

Why do you think I'm here, to get those second opinions. Like I said before if everyone knew all the answers I don't think anyone would be here. I asked for advice, outside of that why do you have to be a prick?

As for everyone else, THANK YOU!!!! Your help is much much much appreciated. As for overall performance upgrades I think I've come to a conslusion as far as parts. My cousin owns a performance shop out here and is going through the same headache with his dsm, so from his failures are comming my solutions.

Was wondering if I could pose a question about weight reduction, roughly what in general I can shave off while maintaning a legal status. Seats, front and back are going to be gone, completely, replaced with molded fiberglass. Project weight is roughly 3000 pounds, curb weight of an eclipse is roughly 600 pounds more then that. Front hood, back hatch both carbon setups. Airbag systems will be removed. Any additional suggestions to reduce the weight by a great amount will be appreciated.

And if you all are wondering where I'm comming from and my massive 3 posts (we all start somewhere sometime frog) I'm 19, been racing compeditively yamaha r6's and r1's since I first got my license at 16. My insurance company found a few illegal modifications in my motorcycle and now trying to bill me over $480 a month for my bike and in a nutshell when it rains in vegas it fricken RAINS. Half the time too much so to even make it into work on a bike. Getting slightly tired of all of this I started looking for a new project vehicle, starting with old muscle cars, but honestly, I wanted more of a tuner edge. The whole goal in this project is to get the same feeling I get out of my bike... from a car. Not the feeling that you're just driving A-B, but you're riding something the entire way.

Below is a few pictures of the bike for the hell of it, maybe so you guys can get an idea of where I'm comming from and where I want to end up.

http://www.thezerocorp.com/images/1.jpg
http://www.thezerocorp.com/images/6.jpg
http://www.thezerocorp.com/images/7.jpg
http://www.thezerocorp.com/images/8.jpg
http://www.thezerocorp.com/images/4.jpg

P.S. Thank you again to everyone for their posts, Whathits14, gthompson97, Shpyder, ted_ex that's the type of information I needed right there, just a general understanding and a personal opinion. As for getting the parts from the same store, no, not one store is going to have all top performance, however that store right there is a decent start considering they've built several 10 second and below DSM's. Another one of those things where if you feel something can be found somewhere else, point a finger :)

Your A/C you can remove that to make the car lighter.

Your A/C you can remove that to make the car lighter.

True, but I kinda like the idea of air conditioning when it comes to vegas weather lol, we have 120 degree summers, they're winding down now so it wont be that big of a deal. Hmm... actually, good consideration to make. Remember this is a touring car still, 4 hours with no A/C lol might as well build an oven on wheels.

thats a bad ass bike man!

a/c removal will be a weight reduction and also will put some power back into the motor. it won't be taking power away to run the ac belts and anything anymore

My only real point is: If you're going to do this yourself and do it right, you're going to need to do A LOT of research and reading. It will take a lot of time. There are some good starting points like dsmtuners starter guide http://www.dsmtuners.com/tuning-guide/2gturbo/ and a few others. Also check out the FAQ stickied (hopefully still there?) on this forum for sites and info. But people can't just tell you what to do to build what you want. If you've got the cash, which it seems you do, then just head over to CA and tell a DSM shop what you want. I'm sure they'll be happy to do it for you and do it right.

As for getting the parts from the same store, no, not one store is going to have all top performance

Frankly, SBR and RRE are just two of the several respected 4g63 performance shops out there, that can build you a race car from the ground up, if you leave it with them long enough and have the money, and there are others out there. That means, they can have the long block squared away, and turbo stuff done with all supporting mods (FMIC, DSMLink, EBC, fuel, blah blah). You'll want to get Shep or TRE to make you a nice tranny for the power levels youre looking at, and have it shipped to wherever your car is being built.

I think it's a good idea to have as much stuff done in one shop, rather than do a runaround, especially if the shop is one that specializes in just DSMs. The guys at RRE and SBR know these cars inside out, and can help you out along the upgrade routine without you ever having to search a single forum (reccommended for those who don't want to learn and just want the goodies in already! lol). I always do a runaround as far as parts are concerned, and it saves me a lot of money (EBay, local message boards, DSMTuner classifieds, etc). I just picked up a brand new boxed Profec B Spec II and a wireless GReddy switch for $220. But I'd rather have one place install it, because then, they are responsible for everything that is being done, and can't shift blames to other installers if something goes wrong.

I purchased a used short-block on EBay, being sold by SBR, and used by SBR. Instead of them having to ship bits and pieces here and there, I asked them to add a race head, and a 6-bolt swap kit, and then ship me the entire thing, so all my mechanic has to do is throw the engine in, without having to worry about figuring the 1G CAS wiring out, and a host of other issues. DSMs are different (I know everyone says that about their own cars, but no seriously, our cars are like retarded different :icon16:). You want to keep your car away from the generic "Blu Neonz Performance Club" shops, and have places like RRE and SBR work on your car as much as you can. There's a great comfort in the knowledge that your car is being worked on by people who have tested, maintained, and upgraded virtually every part of a DSM.

In summary, if money isnt an issue, then hell yes, one place can have everything you'd need. :silly:

Frankly, SBR and RRE are just two of the several respected 4g63 performance shops out there, that can build you a race car from the ground up, if you leave it with them long enough and have the money, and there are others out there. That means, they can have the long block squared away, and turbo stuff done with all supporting mods (FMIC, DSMLink, EBC, fuel, blah blah). You'll want to get Shep or TRE to make you a nice tranny for the power levels youre looking at, and have it shipped to wherever your car is being built.

I think it's a good idea to have as much stuff done in one shop, rather than do a runaround, especially if the shop is one that specializes in just DSMs. The guys at RRE and SBR know these cars inside out, and can help you out along the upgrade routine without you ever having to search a single forum (reccommended for those who don't want to learn and just want the goodies in already! lol). I always do a runaround as far as parts are concerned, and it saves me a lot of money (EBay, local message boards, DSMTuner classifieds, etc). I just picked up a brand new boxed Profec B Spec II and a wireless GReddy switch for $220. But I'd rather have one place install it, because then, they are responsible for everything that is being done, and can't shift blames to other installers if something goes wrong.

I purchased a used short-block on EBay, being sold by SBR, and used by SBR. Instead of them having to ship bits and pieces here and there, I asked them to add a race head, and a 6-bolt swap kit, and then ship me the entire thing, so all my mechanic has to do is throw the engine in, without having to worry about figuring the 1G CAS wiring out, and a host of other issues. DSMs are different (I know everyone says that about their own cars, but no seriously, our cars are like retarded different :icon16:). You want to keep your car away from the generic "Blu Neonz Performance Club" shops, and have places like RRE and SBR work on your car as much as you can. There's a great comfort in the knowledge that your car is being worked on by people who have tested, maintained, and upgraded virtually every part of a DSM.

In summary, if money isnt an issue, then hell yes, one place can have everything you'd need. :silly:


I am about to sell my mustang and get some cash for it, I was thinking of doing the 6bolt swap. And since we live in the same area, I am curious as to what mechanic you are using. Since you obviously trust him enough to do that. I don't really know any mechanic in the area I would trust enough to do the swap.

I would be cautious as how to define the word "swap".

The engine has been shipped (as of yesterday) as a complete 6-bolt crate motor, with the 2G swap kit already intalled. Hence all my mechanic will do, is trim the motor mount and plop that thing right in. So, SBR did all the technical work as far as a proper "swap" means. I'll PM you.

you say the word "roughly" way to much. if you think you can make the swap happen, you will do it. if you are looking to use the 3000gt tt engine in a project car, try putting it in a galant. thats where those engines belong in other non-smog countries.