Why I'll always build Cars and Bikes!

I recently took a break from building Cars and Bikes and started on a P-51D Mustang. I'd always liked these planes and having never built a plane before I thought I'd give it a go. I added an engine, full cockpit details, opened the wing to reveal the machine guns, etc...
Anyway, during the build I occasionally took it to our monthly meetings to show everyone the progress. To cut a long story short, I finished the kit and entered it into our State championships on Friday. To my suprise I was met by some of the local IPMS members who gleefully revealed that one of my decals was upside down on a wing. Now this happens, I know mistakes occur, but they also revealed that they had noticed this mistake a few months ago but didn't tell me until it was too late! Is this just me or is that pathetic!!! It seems that aircraft modellers take pleasure from picking up on mistakes and desperately trying to hide their techniques from each other! I think Auto modellers are the exact opposite. Everyone I've met likes to share techniques and would certainly let me know if I made a mistake so I could have the opportunity to fix it????
As a side note I really enjoyed building something different although my passion is for Cars and Bikes. I'll post some pics of the Mustang If anyones interested when I get back from the show tonight?

Dont go to the IPMS nationals though. Those guys arent supportive at all, they rip each other to shreads. When I was there walking through the model room this is what I seriously heard:

"Those shoelaces are the wrong color"

"That isnt the right camoflauge"

"That color is two shades off"

"His wheels are too shiney"

"His glasses are the wrong color"

"That decal is off about 1/16"

"Those tires are too scrubbed"

"Those tires have too much meat on them"

"His boots are the wrong color"

"Nobody with that rank was in a tank batallion"

"The pilots suit is the wrong color"

"His rivets are not the right size"

"That barrel is not long enough"

"that barrel is too short"

"That insignia is the wrong shade"

"That belt is the wrong color"

I could go on and on.

I should show them my subby. I would get such a kick out of that. Also, I think we could use a non-automotive model section to post other stuff like ships and planes.

IPMS guys are MAJOR nerds. They know every little detail and the history of the military model. Trekkies are'nt even that bad. they will criticise the littist thing. then will rip you to schreds if you say somthing bad about there model

cars modelers are the complete opposite. most of us will bend over backwards to help people. and we rarely criticise other for inaccuarcies on there models. we build for the fun, there so worried about inaccuracies that there can be no fun in what there building, it would seem like more of a job then a hobby.

I have to say, some auto builders do strive for the perfection and accuracy that armour, plane, etc modelers do, but I have to agree that in general, auto modelers are more helpful than the other varieties, except for model railroad folks. They are the least competitive the lot, as far as I can tell. I have no idea why this is, except to say that even 1:1 car guys tend to help each other out, and it's rare to see one guy not help another out, except at the top levels of professional racing. Maybe these IPMS folks think they're that good?

And I, for one, would love to see your P-51.

"one of my decals was upside down on a wing"!
Well unless it is an exact replica of a lets say, specific plane then the rivet counting w...ers have nothing to complain or smirk about as in the heat of the moment when repairs were being done - repaints etc, who is to say that the emblem was not painted on back to front on the real plane. As for the wrong shade of paint in the Military situation, what a load of s..t! Its not like they could go to their local paint store to order a specific shade of grey or green. They took what they could get and mixed it in with whatever they had left from before and the shade that came out was what they got.
I went to one meeting only when I was trying to find out what the correct colour was to paint a model of the Yamato battleship and the IPMS guys told me one thing and a panel of so called experts on the net told me the complete opposite. I sent an Email off to the Japanese Embassy not really expecting to be given the time of day and was surprised when I got a reply back with a list of websites re the Yamato with photographs and a note from the Japanese Navy that there was no specific colour as if was what ever they could get hold of. They suggested 2 or 3 shades of Grey mixed.
So much for the Rivet Counters Information.
Cheers
Tony

Thank guys!
Err... the mistake was an obvious one (the star on the left wing!) but my point was.. why didn't they tell me?? As soon as I had entered the kit they rushed over to gloat about the mistake!
Anyway....I'll show them. I'll enter another plane next year and show them what 'car modellers' are capable of!!!

Hi Rob. Sorry I missed you at the show. I didn't stay long (an hour)as I got annoyed with the old Fa.ts wandering around (and I am 43) in a bunch criticizing all the models that weren't entered by their group. I got even more annoyed when one passed comment on your West Honda. What is so special about that, that puts it in this class? I pointed out the detail you put in and just got a Hufff! Big deal you should see so and so's tank on our stand. I asked what a tank had to do with it as they were 2 totally different models and got told that I obviously don't know much about modelling. I just replied that I know enough not to join the IPMS and left but not before I picked up some bits and pieces from Modellers Choice in front of the Sunshine Coast stand and The Parts Box down the other end. Great display on the Tweed modellers stand. Took aheap of pics of both yours and Stumps models.
Would have liked to have caught up with both you and Dwayne but couldn't even ask if you were there as no one was on the stand whenever I returned to it. I asked the lady doing the announcing if the Sunshine Coast Club members were there as she kept calling out for them and she said probably outside sucking on a cigarette as that was where she kept finding them. I had a look but didn't see anyone I knew except a guy with shoulder length curly brown hair and a goaty that looked vaguely familiar for some reason. Looking forward to pics of the Mustang and of your 80s project.
Cheers
Tony

I agree with you robrex. But like I say to people "prove me wrong". There could have been one day,week or month where that star was upside down. If they don't like it don't look at it.
Look forward to seeing some pics.

Sorry to hear that rob, yeh some modellers can get a little picky. Conceited bastards, that's why i switched to making cars. All you gotta think is you make better cars than them! Post some pics of the plane, im eager to see it, i was in the plane phase a couple years back.

Well, most of the guys that build war vehicles are old and grumpy men. :rofl:

If I ever do my WWII models, I think they'll all be in gray scale like a black and white pic. If you wanna show up the armor guys and still do a carmodel, make the hase Kubelwagon in 1:24. Yea, I can see if you are making an exact of a 1:1, but otherwise..WGAF...

Being a rivet counter is one thing and to be respected in some ways, but you’re right in this instance Rob. Deliberately keeping that titbit of information from you, to use as a weapon at the a comp, is a very low act. Just shows the guys insecurity I guess.

Besides, who's to say the panel wasn't installed upside down by mistake? Or during field battle repairs a template was applied somehow other than by the book? If I where you I'd photoshop a picture proving your mistake is authentic. Be good for a laugh!

Lets see that Mustang. Lovely aircraft, I wouldn't mind building one in 1/24th, but life is too damn short.

That is just so pathetic, talk about being pedantic. To make it even worse, they knew about it and did nothing to tell you until it was too late. That is totally un-acceptable, A quick “hi, sorry to tell you, that decal is placed the wrong way around” would have been OK. Just how hard is that? I mean just what is the harm in that?

In-security and jealousy as far as I can see here. They are so pre-conceived with building their little WW2 military models that they perhaps think no one else can build them to the accuracy of what they can. OK, accuracy is important, but so is the same with a model car, and to be honest does it really matter.

It’s only a hobby.. The time you start building just solely to win a competition, is in my mind, the time to step back and think – “man it’s only a hobby”..!!

Sorry to all those who read that and think – “well only losers say that”. But it’s like sport, it’s only a game, and it’s only a hobby. I wouldn’t sweat it, leave them to their deprived little life’s, as they grow into grumpy old men, who spend all their hours in a little room building these models, because their wife’s hate them now, and they hate the married life, just waiting for the pension cheque to roll in.. As they do this, you can be building the next modern, ultra cool and impressive model car, that 20 year olds can say, “wow I saw one of those at the latest motor show, or whatever”.

I mean, a WW2 Tank, or a Modern sleek Ferrari Enzo or 550 or 2005 resin kit of the winning Renault F1.. Hmmm know which one I’d be impressed with. I car of beauty to entertain us, to show off creativity against a thing of total destruction, war and misery..!!

Sorry to rant on, that really pissed me off.

I TRIED to join an IPMS club here in Oklahoma City, and basically got shunned! I went in and showed my stuff, and subsequently they did just as you all have said...picked at it untill it was a festering sore in my heart! I was so hurt that I just left WITHOUT MY MODELS!!! of course this was when I was only about 10 or so...what a way to welcome the youth into the hobby! luckily, the kid that brought me to the meeting stayed and he brought my models later.

I have only gone to one IPMS event since...I was about 25 and still recieved the same "WELCOME" as when I was only 10. so IPMS can suck a fat one for all I care!!

I wanna see that mustang. the only nicer planes than the mustang were the P38 lightning, and B25 Mitchell, but they were in a totally different class, so comparison is feutile.

Being a rivet counter is one thing and to be respected in some ways, but you’re right in this instance Rob. Deliberately keeping that titbit of information from you, to use as a weapon at the a comp, is a very low act. Just shows the guys insecurity I guess..


there is car modelers like this also.

Here are some pics of the offending model. Oh, by the way, after the show had finished a guy from IPMS approached me to ask if anyone had spoken to me about what was wrong with my Mustang. He also complimented me on the build and said it would have been a 'very strong' contender if the decal was correct. He was really positive and encouraged me to try again for next year. He also gave me some suggestions for correcting the mistake.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/502/67389DSCF0038.JPGhttp://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/502/67389DSCF0037.JPG
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/502/67389DSCF0036.JPGhttp://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/502/67389DSCF0035.JPG

I took away 1st and 2nd place in Race Vehicles modified for the Jag and my West RC211V, and 1st and 2nd place in street vehicles modified for my CF TRD3000 and S15.

Wait till next year!

Congrats Rob ;)
If you ask me plain should have get something also, most of my friend modelers are just like that, I mean freaking decal????
Not to bring Mike's good examles but can you imagine this, friend of mine built Abrams tank and in kit you get plastic bottle of some kind of water. So his model was perfect and he didn't won any prizes becase of that botlle, explanation was that the botlle can not stand like that on the tank??????

Hi Rob. Awesome model! This is a dumb question but as a non military buff what is wrong with the decal on the wing? I printed the pics out and turned them upside down and looked at them with a magnifying glass but still couldn't see any difference. Unless its on the wrong wing I cant see the problem. Its awesome and I wish I had a quarter of your talent.
Just a suggestion for next year - how about a Mercedes WW2 Staff Car. Its military and a car! I'm sure that you can get a 1/16th scale Merc. Not sure if its the right model though but I can just imagine that little lathe working overtime.
Cheers
Tony

Hi Rob,

Mate, 1st off, congrats on your wins in Comp. Cars and Street.. :smile:
Very, very well deserved Rob..The Jag was unbeleivable, and the Supra, well I'll up my offer....It was an absolute joy to finally see that baby in the flesh, er,.... carbon I mean....STUNNING.......

Rob, I'm pleased I actually got a pic of your plane, not knowing who built it, I was just taken by the quality of the build.....Listening to you and Dwayne talking about the decal, I thought at the time that it was very petty of them (IPMS guys) not to have mentioned it to you earlier, but I guess it was to their advantage, hey.....

I'm very sure, should you decide to enter that class next year, the results will be turned,...in "your" favour.....Great stuff Mate. Build on.!!

Was great to catch up with you again too Rob....Doesn't happen often enough, I feel......We need more shows.... :smile:

Cheers Rob
Greg/Stumpsmodels :aus:

Hi Rob,

I wonder if those same people who failed to tell you the stars and bars were upside down are now envious of you trophy count from QMHE '05. Having judged another aircraft category over the weekend, I noticed another aircraft in the competition category with the stars and bars upside down and I am sure he was a full time aircraft builder.

Mate, just build another plane. No better revenge then kick there a*** in the comp next year. The Mustang was great.

Congrats on the prizes. A couple of the most sensational models I've ever seen. Just pleased I got to see them in the flesh.

Cheers
Craig

Congrats on the results Rob. You totally cleaned up! :)

Those two wing decals are kind of glaring, bad luck they're only the biggest decals on the whole damn model! I understand your frustration because it would have been very simple to fix if you knew in time. Otherwise the Mustang looks utterly fantastic, Love the bare metal underside with invasion stripes. Next time you'll have to do an Australian version!

Tony, the stars on the wings should have the top point of the star towards the front of the aircraft.

And I'm pleased to hear at least one of the judges is a nice guy and complimented you on the P-51.

That Mustang is incredible! Too bad about the decal, but like RallyRaider says, it's pretty hard not to notice if you're looking for it. It's just dickle that no one told you int time, it shouldn't be too hard a fix. You should fix it and take the same plane back - that'll show 'em! The rest of the model is just immaculate. Great work!

I had my run in with them too. Back in 1995 i actualy saw these an*al retentive jerks counting rivits on a model. I got the idea to go NASTANK, for the REALLY serious racer. took it to some shows, where most people loved it, but the hardcore ones considered me blasphemous! It is a hobby, and I was in the military, the two are distinct and different things!


http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/94007DSC00367-med.JPG

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/94007DSC00369-med.JPG

I have experienced or witnessed just about everything I've read in this thread personally.
I have been an IPMS National judge since 1990. I won my first IPMS 1st place in 1968, and have been a longtime member. I've even managed to earn The Judges Grand Best Of Show.

While there are a lot of jerks and self appointed "experts" in the organization, there are more "regular / normal" people who don't make such a memorable imprint. Sadly many of the most vocal members are only posturing to get some much needed attention while spouting drivel, and most often it's in a negative form.
Please remember, just like any society, it's the individual people, not necessarily the whole club that is the problem.

It is very sad to hear a repairable mistake was not brought to the builders attention, especially if these folks were poking fun at it.
I can only suppose they felt threatened by the level of work already shown in the model and thought the easiest way to remove it from later competition was to allow the error to stand. Very sad indeed.

I remember witnessing at one IPMS National contest where one of the judges, (who admitted he had never heard of, let alone seen, a dual ignition Hemi), complained about the looks of the plug wiring. (It was an OOB 1/16 scale Revell Funny Car.)
When confronted by a knowledgeable judge who pointed out that not only was it correct, but well rendered too, the first judge said, "I still don't like the way it looks, it shouldn't win."
His credentials are that he used to drive sports cars in the 70's. His model building skills were very poor, his models entered would not have placed in the Juniors category. Why was he a National Judge? Because anyone can be. Cattle Call!
It's ignorance like this from "The Experts" and often petty jealousy that is killing the contests and discouraging many builders, seasoned and new alike and in the process killing the IPMS.
Worse is the judges that shill for their own and their friends models. Sadly I have witnessed it as recently as at the 04 Phoenix Nationals.

I will still continue to support and attend IPMS functions in the hope that I can offer more positive experiences to fellow modelers. While I'll be the first to admit there are problems in the society, just don't paint all of us IPMS members with the same brush... - Mark

When i first started making models when i was about 4 years old - my dad did most of the work for me, but i did help out - i did only Military models. Now, staying in that genre of model making for about 20 years, i know all to well how military modellers are. I think it was about 5 years ago that i changed to car modelling.... only! A few reasons that i changed was: Not much color or vibrance in military modelling and as i matured, i did not think it was to cool to have models of machines that kill and destroy. Not to say that they are not cool machines or technological marvels, but i just want something more peaceful. But yes, military modellers are a different type of person. They are alot more serious, which makes them kind of boring and as one AF'er said, they are grumpy old men, stuck in a little room, marriage breaking down, waiting for a pension check...... in short, not much of a life. But you know what, i should not judge them. Car modellers are way cool and i am happy to be one myself. Cheers :)

Well I'm no expert, but that mustang looks "Fantastic"..!! What a bunch of pr%$^ks...

I've been tempted a few times to purchase a navel warship, but I just can't bring myself to take pride in something built in real life to destroy.. I mean, we need them to protect from aggression etc.. But I just find cars more creative, a thing of beauty - you know man and machine, in a none destructive way.. Unless you crash that is..

But no, great build, and don't worry about it... I don't think any casual onlooker will notice the mistake.. I didn't..!!

It would be a huge mistake to categorize aircraft builders, or IPMS members, because of this incedent. This was obviously a crappy thing to do, but it certainly cannot represent the actions of an entire community of modelers. A group is only as good as its members, be it an online community, or a club meeting. Sure, there are @sshole who build aircraft (or ships, tanks, sci-fi, etc)- but there are just as many who build cars. Each community also has its own uniqueness. For instance- It's been my experience that aircraft modelers tend to be more welcoming of different genres of aircraft models than car modelers tend to be. If you take a model of an F-16 to a meeting of aircraft modelers, even if as a club they tend to do almost exclusively WWII, they'll tend to be welcoming and intereted in your work. Take a model of a tuned 'import' drifter to a model car club where most of the members build Deetroit iron and they may not run you off, but they may have little interest in you or your build. (That's something I've only seen amongst car modelers.)

If you want to see some good communities of aircraft/military modelers, check out Hyperscale (www.hyperscale.com) or Aircraft Resources Center (www.aircraftresourcecenter.com). Both are very comparable to what's here in the modeling section of AF. Some amazing models to be seen, and lots to be learned. Strangely, they seem to post alot more cars there than we post planes/ships/tanks here....

"Tony, the stars on the wings should have the top point of the star towards the front of the aircraft."
Thanks for clearing that up for me Phil. So both top and bottom are back to front!
But as we both said in our early posts, could they not have been painted on that way under the stress of battle repairs? I know its probably the wrong attitude but I would be more worried about getting my butt shot off by having a plane sitting on the ground while the enemy was in the air, than which way round I painted the emblem.

Nice plane. You could brush silver over the offending decals and make it look like it is being stripped and repainted.

BTW - the tank needs Dubs.

But as we both said in our early posts, could they not have been painted on that way under the stress of battle repairs? I know its probably the wrong attitude but I would be more worried about getting my butt shot off by having a plane sitting on the ground while the enemy was in the air, than which way round I painted the emblem.

Nope. Large stuff like insignia was painted on before an aircraft was ever delivered to a combat zone. And as far as repaints, would you fly a plane fixed by someone who managed to paint a national insignia upside down? Personally, I'd worry about what else was done upside down....

Seriously, it's not the kind of mistake that could be made in the paint shop- and if it had, it would be immediately noticed, stripped, and repainted. Could you imagine an F1 car arriving at a race with the sponsor logo on the rear spoiler inadvertantly inverted? Wouldn't happen- it would have been seen and fixed.

On the other hand, you'd be surprized how often the 'star and bars' insignia gets applied upside down on models. If you're accoustomed to looking at this emblem, if inverted it looks instantly and unavoidably wrong- but if you aren't as familiar with aircraft, it's a very easy thing to miss. These guys (the IPMS modelers) would have noticed it instantly, as obviously as, say, a upside down Mitsubishi emblem would look if you built/drove Mitsubishi's. They were jerks for not having pointed it out.

Aircraft were still repaired and repainted in the field. It is quite conceivable superficially damaged wing panels could have been replaced on the airfield. D-Day invasion stripes were even brush painted in some instances!

http://www.around.ntl.sympatico.ca/~toby/ddayspit.jpg

Although agreed such a glaring error would not inspire confidence in the maintenance crew. But I'm sure there would have been plenty of jokes played on error prone pilots. :) Who is to say that some British or Australian bunch of larrikins didn't play a prank on the Yanks under cover of darkness? :lol:

I was with rob on friday night and what a night old rob has not told the full story. It started we packed up the car, and i said i might hold one boxes which included the west bike and a couple of other kits . When we were half way there a DICKHEAD cut in front of us and slammed on his brakes and then there was models slamming the back seat. I wanted to kill the guy but rob controlled me but nothing was brocken luckely.
then he got into line to enter and within minutes a guy came straight up and what a great plane OOOHHH but the decal is frosted and by the time rob got his plane onto the table well he was pretty dejected.
But the best part he cleaned up the show with 2 golds and 2 silvers.
At least one guy at the end said remove the decal fix it up and put it back in next year.

Oh by the way i,m the bastard that gave the kit to rob just to frustraight him as it was a complex kit to build but what a fantastic job he done on it and i,m proud to put into our hobby shop to show it of

And for the difference in military and automotive modeling is that i have very nearly given up modelling all together even sold a few hundred kits but all the car guys at the show and rob all gave me the passion back and now the kits are coming out and the desk is being cleaned up

Dont give up Dwayne. Who else do I know personally and look up to on the local scene if you give it away.
I know your there Rob but I've seen Dwaynes models over many years and I can relate some of my better efforts with some of his earlier creations. I can only dream of reaching your standard Dwayne let alone getting anywhere near Robs. Keep going!
Cheers
Tony

I may have to give rob a afv kit this time or a boat to really test his patience.
I also just realised something most of the car guy's have left the IMPS and now want to start a car group from all the different clubs around the area. Even on their stand i cannot remember any cars at all
GEE i wounder.
Thanks Tony i am going to stay around only to start building to give robrex some competition (i wish) have to pull finger out of bum and start building

On about break away car clubs, I am a member of one of these in San Diego. It is great, we meet every month and then head out afterwards. Anyone in the San DIego area that wants details drop me a PM, we are always looking for new members

It's incredible how people can take their own frustrations and extrapolate them to the hobby, I also have heard the most incredible things in modeling contests, one of most common and funny ones, is when I hear somebody say that "the color is not correct", or even better "the color of that camouflage is two shades wrong" !!! and they are referring to an WW2 airplane, or tank!!!!, and I wonder how a human being is capable of storing with such precision a color spectrum down to an specific shade, of a color of an airplane they have never seen in their lives!!!! This makes me laugh so hard.
I know of course, that there exists a FS, or RAL, or RLM, but any way I keep wondering how a human being can memorize all these colors and match them to a model under certain light circumstances and all that stuff involved, that it’s so funny, and of course I’m not talking about the variation of shades of a color due to weathering and aging and of course the famous scale color variation, it’s so funny how they make life hard to themselves.

All this is the funny part of them, but keeping information of a repairable mistake to use it latter to criticize a model it’s a shame.

I think this is part of the eternal fight-barrier between the car and military modelers, and the fact that they are so frightened that a car modeler is capable to build a better military model, I have built both type of models, and I still think that it is easier to get a good flat finish than a mirror-gloss one.

And besides this, being on this side, on the side of the nicest people, the people who build for fun and is capable to share EVERYTHING, it means you guys, it’s the best thing!

I’m happy to be here

I would just like to say that is the best P-51 I have seen for a first time plane builder. I have been building models for about 20 years every thing from planes to trains,tanks,cars and would never enter a contest. My WWII models are not as good as yours. As for the guys at the IMPS dont let it get to you. YOU BUILD TO PLEASE YOUR SELF AND NOBODY BUT YOU. It's just a hobby.