An Aussie defense

After reading about ramairgto72's thoughts on the Pontiac GTO (Holden Monaro), I have this to say:

1) The Monaro was designed and manufactured in Australia for an Australian Market. The fact that the US of A is not capable nor even interested in actually designing an affordable 'muscle' car is probably why American jobs are losing out...
2) The GTO/Monaro is structurally strong, well thought out and even tho Australia has the LS1 with a Getrag 6 speed manual, it has plenty of balls. The Holden Special Vehicle(HSV) versions are visually more appealing and would really enhance the US market, with plent of work done to them.
3) There are numerous companies in Australia that modify their Monaro's for 550RWHP with twin turbo kits running 10psi(www.amberleyautos.com.au). Would any of your 'ol skool' GTO's keep up with that?

So, maybe the GTO is out sourced for some parts but so what? The fact is they are well engineered. If American jobs were used to completely build it, consider how much the car would cost. Probably cheaper to just import one from Australia!!

After reading about ramairgto72's thoughts on the Pontiac GTO (Holden Monaro), I have this to say:

1) The Monaro was designed and manufactured in Australia for an Australian Market. The fact that the US of A is not capable nor even interested in actually designing an affordable 'muscle' car is probably why American jobs are losing out...


You don't need to defend the Aussie Monaro at all. It is one heck of a car. I wish you would not have attacked the Americans either, at least not based on rants from one person.

When Lutz decided to bring back the GTO, he wanted to do it fast. GM has nothing state side to do the fast turn so he looked to Holden to give us a GTO based on a proven and respected platform, the Monaro.

I own a 2005 GTO and I say thanks to you all down under for the fine car. It has to be the best car I've owned to date. It's build quality, fit and finish, handling, and power are incredible.

As far as the comments from ramairgto72, he just likes to troll the boards stiring up fires. He still thinks each GM division still builds their own powertrains and Pontiac is using a Chevy engine in the GTO. Despite being told numours times that GM Powertrain builds powertrains for all GM divisions he still likes to stir the fires.

Please don't judge us all based on his personal rants.

Thanks again for the GTO!

I'm in complete agreement with your entire statement except ONE item... It's no problem to get 600 horsepower (93 octane) in streetable form, from "old school" Pontiacs.
I was at Norwalk for the TriPower Nationals, an "all Pontiac" race. No Chevrolet engines allowed, unless they came from the factory. Even then, no modifications allowed (must remain stock). The LSx powered GTOs were not subject to the "Chevrolet Rule", as they are not a Chevy engine, but a "corporate" collaboration. The rule was aimed at the '82-'97 Firebirds.
While there, we saw what was billed as "the fastest LS engine in the world". Whether or not that's completely true is a matter of discussion... However, in an '05 GTO body (pro-stock style chassis), with twin turbos on alcohol, it went 7.15 @ 198 MPH. That's FAST! But fast time of the meet was 6.91 @ 205, with a blown/alcohol 440 CID Pontiac. It too, was in a "door slammer" ('63 Tempest).

I DO love the new GTO. Never saw a Manaro except in pictures, so I can't really say about it. I know it isn't exactly the same. As the previous poster says, don't let a few "ranters" get to you. Most of the true GTO crowd welcome the car, and feel it's about 10 years late...

Just out of curiousity, what does an equivalent Monaro go for down under? $$$$$? Thanks.

Yes, some of my comments were a bit abrupt and for that I apologise.
The Holden Monaro CV8 with LS1 6 speed sells for about $AUS42,000. They are available in AWD as a $6000 option as well, not really the Muscle car image but sure scares the crap outta the Jap import crowd.
Did I mention that this twin turbo kit bolts onto a standard engine with ECU mods? 11sec qtrs with the right tyres!! The new HSV's have the LS2 and absolutely rock especially with the AWD option!!
The HSV(www.hsv.com.au) Monaro Coupe 4 sells for about $80,000 and is what I am looking at next with AWD and the twin turbo kit. Hopefully a engine rebuild will let me run 18psi and about 900hp at the wheels on 98 octane fuel :)

Yes, some of my comments were a bit abrupt and for that I apologise.
The Holden Monaro CV8 with LS1 6 speed sells for about $AUS42,000. They are available in AWD as a $6000 option as well, not really the Muscle car image but sure scares the crap outta the Jap import crowd.
Did I mention that this twin turbo kit bolts onto a standard engine with ECU mods? 11sec qtrs with the right tyres!! The new HSV's have the LS2 and absolutely rock especially with the AWD option!!
The HSV(www.hsv.com.au) Monaro Coupe 4 sells for about $80,000 and is what I am looking at next with AWD and the twin turbo kit. Hopefully a engine rebuild will let me run 18psi and about 900hp at the wheels on 98 octane fuel :)


Thanks for the prices. $AUS42,000 comes out to $US31,714. I guess its comparable. I noticed on the HSV web site that there's an Australian GTO. Interesting.

http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vz/main.asp?link=main/gto.html




http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/gtp.jpg
Thrasher CAI, DHP v1.0 PCM, SLP Headers,
3.25 SC pulley, CAIT GMAF, 2.5 DP/Hi-Flow CAT,
u-bend delete, 160 TS, ZZP Stage 1 72mm TB,
TB spacer, MSD 8.5mm wires, Autolite 103,
Goodyear Gatorback Serp. & SC Belt,
Nitto NT555R Drag Radials
1/4 ET: 13.210 sec. @ 104.490 mph
0 - 60 ft: 1.945 sec.

After reading about ramairgto72's thoughts on the Pontiac GTO (Holden Monaro), I have this to say:

1) The Monaro was designed and manufactured in Australia for an Australian Market. The fact that the US of A is not capable nor even interested in actually designing an affordable 'muscle' car is probably why American jobs are losing out...

So the new Mustang isn't an affordable muscle car?

The new 2005 Mustang convertible's chassis has more than twice the torsional stiffness of the 2004 Mustang convertible.

The new convertible was designed alongside the new coupe.

Car & Driver ranked its rigidity on par with a BMW 3 series convertible.

check this link

New Mustang (http://www.motorsportscenter.com/article_462.shtml)

http://www.motorsportscenter.com/uploads/05mustang_chassis.jpg

http://www.motorsportscenter.com/uploads/must_cont_frnt_copy.jpg

http://fast-autos.net/ford/05mustang15.jpg

The new Mustang has won four races in Grand-Am Cup.

http://www.multimaticmotorsports.com/mustang/index.html

http://motorsport.com/photos/grandcup/2005/tr/grandcup-2005-tr-eg-0411.jpg

http://grand-am.com/CONTENT/Photos/Gallery/2005/05CALcupS800-04.jpg

So the new Mustang isn't an affordable muscle car?

The new 2005 Mustang convertible's chassis has more than twice the torsional stiffness of the 2004 Mustang convertible.

The new convertible was designed alongside the new coupe.

Car & Driver ranked its rigidity on par with a BMW 3 series convertible.


http://www.motorsportscenter.com/uploads/05mustang_chassis.jpg


I believe the Mustang is an affordable car but still I wouldn't consider purchasing one. Although the structural improvements may have helped this driver walk away, they all suffer consequences of real world driving. This 2005 Mustang didn't fair too well on this t-bone but the same applies to all side impact collisions on any car including BMWs.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/mustang.jpg



http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/gtp.jpg
Thrasher CAI, DHP v1.0 PCM, SLP Headers,
3.25 SC pulley, CAIT GMAF, 2.5 DP/Hi-Flow CAT,
u-bend delete, 160 TS, ZZP Stage 1 72mm TB,
TB spacer, MSD 8.5mm wires, Autolite 103,
Goodyear Gatorback Serp. & SC Belt,
Nitto NT555R Drag Radials
1/4 ET: 13.210 sec. @ 104.490 mph
0 - 60 ft: 1.945 sec.

"he just likes to troll the boards stiring up fires"

You know if it "fires" you up what I say, dont blame that I start fires, be tureful at least.

Just because you dont like what I say, you dont have to say that crap.

Besides "rzkz8k" you seem to be right at my side with the can of gas, so dont go crying to everyone about me without explaning yourself!

As for as my comments about this car, I have never said it was not a bad car, I said it's not a Pontiac GTO, you search my post and find me saying sometihing bad about how it was put together...

Sure I dont like the car but dont become LIERS because you dont like my point of view, and sure "rzkz8k" will talk carp about me because he really does not like my point of view because he bought the GM lie and drives one.


You know I wonder how many of you would be fighting me if they made a "442" "SS" "Skylark" with the same car, and the ONLY thing they did was a trim package and name changes to the car.

It would be a car for the masses one size fits all, like Easter eggs all diffent colors (names) but under the shell the same cookie cutter car.

Is that all some of you want? Do you just want to say "I have a "GTO" "SS", "442", if you like this Idea your more lost then I take you for, and surely some of you ArEnOt truly into cars, your just like a horn dog that only needs 10second jerk off clips to get the job done!!!

And in that case take the car, call it what you want, join your "reach around" groups, at least it will be easyer to weed out the real car enthusiast from the "one size fits all" group!

"mmcleo11" if you have something to say to me, say it to me!

Some of you must have had shelterd lifes, "rzk8k" you hate the fact that I might even speek that the car you drive is nothing but a "marketing Lie". They slap on a well known name onto a fast car and try to play it off, well son you may have gotten suckered in, knowing or not knowing but you not the voice of the masses!

"Mr P" your like a broken record trying to play off this engine as a non Chevy engine, you want this to work so bad your lieing to yourself.MrP is alos wrong about the love for this car, you will find many "notes" in the aussiGTO reviews saying something like
"True Pontiac enthusiasts will be disapointed"!
Mr.P you dont speak for me! and your dead wrong about the pontiac crowd likeing this car.

Thanks about people, how many of you would like to see your beloved car be remade into a 90's mustang powered by a SBC and made in another country??????????????????????????????
I guess if your Mr P you would?

That engine has all of the "add ons" that the SBC got during it's life, and I would say that HOT ROD knows more about the base plan to the engine then you do, as they called it "THE NEXT STEP FOR THE SMALL BLOCK CHEVY"

You sir are wrong, that is a chevy under the hood, and even if wasnt, it's still not a pontiac engine!

You also wrong about the rules at Norwalk
"Mr P"
"No Chevrolet engines allowed, unless they came from the factory"

The rules say "TRADITIONAL PONTIAC ENGINES ONLY"
Your are lieing sir and I have you!

That car some of you are calling a GTO is not even made in this country, you could say that it should only be able to run in the import class, and this was argued in a few mags, one namely Car and Driver, think about it, it is an IMPORT it's not American!

Even Chevy had the name changed on it's HD diesel engine, they did not want to use Isuzu so they renamed it "Duramax"

I have no problem with the way the engine runs, but if you know your American War history namely WW2 you would not want anything to do with some of these companys.

Anybody that burns American Soldiers alive or force labors them should not be selling cars in America, or at the very least not use the same war time name!
Take a drive by your local VA hospital, see how may Jap cars you find.

I'm not polshing my brass here, but it's nice to see that I have better manners then some of you, some of you have come down to "Lieing" about me in order to push your ideas!

I'm sure lots of you voted for John Kerry!

Anybody that burns American Soldiers alive or force labors them should not be selling cars in America, or at the very least not use the same war time name!

Australia, where the new GTO is made, didn't do that to U.S. soldiers.

No, no I was'nt talking about them, reread it I was talking about imports.

Good god man...

Did you see the 2 seater by Saturn?Do you know if it's on the same platform as the 2 seater Pontiac comming out?

First of all, Hot Rod magazine, or any other magazine, has no clue as to engineering involved in producing an engine. Possible exceptions? Motor Age, Automotive Machine SHop. These are "trade" magazines, not consumer/advertisers.
Regardless of what you may read on the "net", the rules posted AT THE TRACK, on race weekend, clearly stated if a car came equipped with a Chevrolet engine (ex: '83 T/A), it could run the Chevy unmodified. You have to get off the porch and into the game if you're gonna throw rocks and call people liars (BTW, there is no "e" in "liar"), and even then, you MUST be sure of your information. If you ARE sure of your informatioin, you need a new source...
You must also be in the Pontiac "mainstream" to speak for them. Go to the three most popular Pontiac-specific websites and ask whether or not I'm (Mr. P-Body) in the "mainstream".
In order to state whether or not the true-blue Pontiac racers like or dislike the car, you must also be in THAT crowd. You are not. At least, nobody has seen your LeMans (NOT a GTO, without question) racing at any of the local tracks.
And, as I've built MANY small blocks, and MANY Pontiacs, I agree. LSx is not a Pontiac. It is also NOT a Chevy. It comes from GM Power Train Division. It is also listed separately in the GM (NOT Chevy) Performance catelog from the Chevy engines (both BBC and SBC have their own sections, and SB-1 and SB-2 are together). You will also find a limitied amount of "new" parts for the traditional Pontiac. Point? Even GM doesn't consider a small block Chevy.
You claim it's my opinions. Well, maybe. But those opinions are based soley on experience and hands-on WORK, not reading the "net" or ragazines... What are yours based on?

Mr.P you said
"No Chevrolet engines allowed, unless they came from the factory. Even then, no modifications allowed (must remain stock)"
Now you saying:
"if a car came equipped with a Chevrolet engine (ex: '83 T/A), it could run the Chevy unmodified."

The rules say "TRADITIONAL PONTIAC ENGINES ONLY"
You never said "Chevy unmodified" you said "RACE".

How can you even think that true Pontiac people would love to see a import powered by a non pontiac engine, and dam it just because they dont make it anymore is not an answer!

It seems that Hot Rod and Jegs and AFR (Air Flow Research) are also calling it a SBC, tap tap tap tap, yes they are, my new Jegs book has heads listed for the LS engine as "SMALL BLOCK CHEVY". Sure it's not a 100% SBC but it has more the same then any other block on earth, is this not true?

MrP I'm not trying to be too much of an ass here, but you cant tell me that you think that this car was the correct way to go with a GTO?

The lines look like a 90s mustang the engine is in both our eyes non Pontiac and it's something Deloren would have said No to... Sure it's quick, but you can make anything quick, haveing a GTO ment nothing less then 6.6 after 67, and nothing less then 389, that was part of the legend or the shine, it wasnt no dam 350 that could get confused with the mouse block....

We both must have some of the same footting on this?

I would love to blame my spelling on something else, but being up all night tends to make me just spell everything like it sounds.

Your attention everyone I spelled lying wrong also!

Please MrP keep me apprised of all my erroneous spellings:)

So now your telling me I DONT have a GTO, I have a Lemans????? And you made you mind up how? was it the missing chrome on the front turn signals? or was it the one Lemans and one GTO rear tail lights? Or maybe the non orignal engine, or maybe the Lemans trunk lid? Sorry to make you sad but it is a ture GTO the body and frame and the doors and fenders and the VIN and the data plate all say YES...

You know I remember talking to you about bodys on GTOs, it's in one of the posts here, you didnt know what was what as far as bodys! How can your sit at your PC and make such a bold statement????

http://ultimategto.com/pow/pow0147b.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/ramairgto72/STEVEsPICTURES/60s3.JPG

The top is a GTO off the web the bottom is my GTO, MrP what are you thinking, YOU dont EVEN know WHAT a 1972 GTO looks LIKE! And you tell me that your a main stream Pontiac guy.... HA, sir HA

If it makes you happy I think I have some pictures of that nasty puke mint green the car used to be painted!http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/pontiac-gto/images/pontiac-gto-ads-1972a1.jpg

Heres an orignal 1972 GTO add if you don't trust me..

I figured to get a rise out of you. No one but you has stooped to name-calling. A '72 GTO, while it most certainly IS considered a GTO by most, is nothing more than an option package on LeMans, as it was in '65. In '64, it was a Tempest. It became a true model in '66 and that ended in '71. You already said in another post, you knew that.

And now, you're spouting BS from a Jeg's catelog of all places. Like they have a clue... Look, dude, you're in over your head. Regardless of what you THINK, you are voicing ONLY an opinioin, based on emotional response to something that isn't what you expected (new GTO). A very smart old man once told me: "Hope for the best. Expect the worst. You'll never be disappointed". I don't see ANY Mustang in it at all, but I DO see a significant amount of Cavelier/Sunfire. Probably more the former. It's quite a bit larger, and again, regardless of your opinion, and that of the "bandwagoneers", GTO is accepted by the GTO community as a whole. Now, if you're 47 years old or older, you MIGHT have a chance of claiming rights to being part of that "community". (the age is a "line in the sand" when one was old enough to actually BUY a GTO new) I was THERE at Norwalk. I HEARD all the comments. ONLY the "show car" people bad-mouthed it. They are the "bandwagoneers" I speak of. Those of us that have been hammerin' out stock Pontiac parts to TRY to stay competitive during the great parts blight that lasted 25 years, are in agreement. The new car does the name justice. You don't have to agree. It's okay. I'm not calling you names because of it.

So, if GM does NOT call it a Chevy engine, but Jeg's does, I guess it is... You really need to get a grip. You take this stuff entirely too seriously. It's only a car, for crissake...

Heres an orignal 1972 GTO add if you don't trust me..

Isn't that a 1971 GTO? The 1972 Goats had vertical spacers in the scoopes.

Did you see the 2 seater by Saturn?Do you know if it's on the same platform as the 2 seater Pontiac comming out?

The 2007 Saturn Sky uses the same chassis as the 2006 Pontiac Solstice. The Sky will have more standard features though.

"No one but you has stooped to name-calling"

I'm not calling anybody names?

I really dont think you were trying to get a rise out of me MrP, a while back we had an arguement about what a 72 looked like, it was a while back and my history gos only back so far in the fourm, but I will find it.

You do not know your ( I really dont know my 64-65s well) GTOs and you tell me you have the right to say what belongs and what dosnt?? Sir you do not know your GTOs and you say
you have "claiming rights to being part of that "community"????

As far as my GTO, no it's not all GTO but it's body and frame and choice parts are, was it a "package" yes, but like I was not sure of, the first GTO was also, is it less a GTO? Thats a good question, for what the car lacks in orignal parts it makes up by Legend, or at least I would hope so. If you have any dought I have the orignal window sticker, it's very yellow, but it's true Pontiac Blue.

It seems that it's your word vs a well known parts book and maybe the best known mag in the world, on top of that the people Air Flow research are calling the heads that they make SBC for the Ls engine.

So it's your word or "wants" VS written.... You have a hill to climb.

So now you tell me that the new GTO was well recived at Norwalk...... I have been to Norwalk it it's full of die hard Pontiac people and I would bet that the people you say said they loved the ugly bastard were the drivers of the cars and the firends, and the made up ones.

Again I say, if you had a GTO and seen GM bring in an import with a chevy engine (or a non pontiac under 389 cubes) would you welcome this bastard to the flock? Hell no, you know if it looked like the other GTO cooncepts from the 90's I would only have one thing to show the light to people about.


http://www.cyberstangs.com/users/seaasp/photos/exterior/frontangle.jpg http://photos.velocityjournal.com/images/full/2004/88/pn2004gto883376.jpg

Putting away you hate for me, look at these pictures and tell me it looks nothing like the mustang, COME ON!

You dont speak for the "whole" of the Pontiac people. I cant find anybody that dose not have a problem with the car, be it chevy powered or being ugly to be an importing job killer.

Deloren did not like this car, I have a HPP interview where he was asked about the new GTO and if he liked it, he only talked about how he liked the suspension, and ended it...
Even the GTOs dady dont like it....But you like it and now everybody should because you lived during the times.

I would like to think that I can speak for the GTO because with my 2 hands rebuilt a GTO from the Ground Up, can I speak for everyone no, and I cant and will not, but I can speak for myself a 31 year old that will run with the PMD flag..

Your not running with a PMD flag your running with a "they dont make it anymore so it's ok to make a bastard" flag.

Isn't that a 1971 GTO? The 1972 Goats had vertical spacers in the scoopes.


The hood is a VFN fiberglass/carbon fiber unit, it comes with the scoops uncut, so I opened them up, I hate fake scoops. Anyhow the scoops are the same for 71 and 72, nothing is different between the cars except in 72 the bumper grills went "deep" and 71 was flush with a differnt grill, they call my grill "egg crate".

I think the 71 grills are more areo dynamic because they are flush, but for looks I like the 72, it looks more "I'm going to suck your car up"..

The other is the side air extractors that help cool the engine as well and push out "air build up" under the front tires. They work, but the screens were missing, on top of that I have about 20 hours a side sanding and polishing them, seems that some dork took a wire brush to that soft alum. as I sanded them they started to shine, so I bought a dremle and worked it untill I was useing glass scratch remover paste, it's the only part on the GTO that I will say looks the best.

When I put this car together I was going for a lighter weight, the 72 LeMans is much lighter then the GTO because of the endura bumper I think I have a video, yep I just uploaded it , you can see it here http://www.geocities.com/ramairgto72/POST/index.html this bumper also has the same drop back as my grill.

I'm not sure about the tail lights in 71 GTOs I do know that the 72 GTO tail lights have "fins", I like the smooth that are on LeMans, but right now I have one of each, since the car is in another state I have not worked on it, or bought many parts for it, I did get the correct chrome crosses for the turn signals http://www.geocities.com/ramairgto72/PICS/HPIM1213.JPG
and I also got a center console, but not sure how well it's going to work with my B&M shifter, but I think it will look better then it does now, on top of that it will give me a place for my fan switches and such.

What alot of people dont know is that all GM A bodies in 72 should have looked like 73 http://www.welovepontiacs.com/history/gto1973.jpg

A strike at the GM plants delayed the new tooling, so you got 3 years of the same body.

The 2007 Saturn Sky uses the same chassis as the 2006 Pontiac Solstice. The Sky will have more standard features though.

Do you think that the engine power numbers will be higher for the Pontiac?

I was hopeing that this would have been a Pontiac only idea, now who knows Chevy may jump on it.

I think it's an OK looking car, the price is going to be lower then say the 2 seater BMW, I think that it will sell ..

Okay, you win.

... tell me it looks nothing like the mustang ...

This is the first time I've seen the GTO style compared to a stang, everyone else compares the GTO to a Calviler.

To me, most of the later automotive designs have that European look to them.

Now a days, it seems you need to start comparing by looking under the hoods.

I remember tracing the 63 and up Pontiacs from MT back in the old days when brands had unique styling, I wish the designers would go back to that era of designing.

Do you think that the engine power numbers will be higher for the Pontiac?

I was hopeing that this would have been a Pontiac only idea, now who knows Chevy may jump on it.

I think it's an OK looking car, the price is going to be lower then say the 2 seater BMW, I think that it will sell ..

Both cars will have a 2.4 liter I-4 with 177 hp, but a supercharged or turbocharged I-4 might come for the 2007 Solstice. There are spy pictures of a Solstice's engine bay with some engine work floating around the web. The Saturn Sky will weigh more with its extra standard features.

The BMW Z4 does cost more at around $35,000.

http://www.theraceforum.com/images/forum/3031-8-1.jpg

Both cars will have a 2.4 liter I-4 with 177 hp, but a supercharged or turbocharged I-4 might come for the 2007 Solstice.

How about a Solstice with an LS2!

http://www.mallettcars.com/news-5-26-05-v8solstice.htm

Again I say, if you had a GTO and seen GM bring in an import with a chevy engine (or a non pontiac under 389 cubes) would you welcome this bastard to the flock? Hell no, you know if it looked like the other GTO cooncepts from the 90's I would only have one thing to show the light to people about.





This is nothing short of ignorant bigotry.
If you want to be a bigot go somewhere else.