4Banger

Hey, anyone have ideas about how to get alot of power out of the 4Cyl with the OHV? I want to get the DOHC upgrade, but I'm at least 4 grand short (Given that I'm putting $6,000 into the suspension and brakes).

Plus I can't find a decent performance shop in East PA that'll do it for me (I'd do it myself if I had time and wasn't going to college and working too).:bloated:

As long as the 91' S-10's 2.5 is exactly the same as the 88' Fiero, I have found a Venom Computerized Management System, as well as two Computerized Nitrous Systems. But I won't go NOS till I rebuild the engine and ceramic coat and micro-coat whatever I can.

But, it's going to be a while till I need to (or want to) rebuild, cause I only have 52K Miles on it. I want to go turbo (it's a mere 8.3:1 compression ratio), and get an A/C intercooler that I saw on a jaguar, and get a quick shift kit (shifter and shift arm).

So any ideas? I'm willing to spend a grand, and everything is still stock in the engine. I've only put poly in the suspension and top-of-the-line automatic pressure increasing shocks and struts (which I don't think are available anymore).

Also, anyone know what the difference is between Turbo and Non-Turbo NOS kits? I thought it was the amount of fuel that gets jetted in with the Nitro, but I'm not sure.

Thanks,
Mike
Black 88' 5-Speed Coupe

go fing a 1980 Turbo Trans Am in a junkyard, take the turbo off of that, and get rebuilt($300) and that should work very nicely for a 151, even though its coming off of an engine twice as big. You could run safely up to 15 pound of boost from that turbo, and it wouldn't cost you nearly 1000 dollars

Arthur

I thought the Turbo T/A was the V6/60 degree 3.4, or was it the Buick 3.8? Either way, isn't my engine going to be a little underpowered to spool that thing up? If I stroked it from 3" to 3.625" I'd go from 2.5L 151CI to 183CI 3.0L and then I could get a turbo kit for a Chevy 3.1 V6, but I think the T/A Turbo's Turbocharger is to big.

Thanks for the input though! :)

Alot of people use the Mitsu turbos. I don't want to sway you away from the 4cyl, but You may want to look at other options.

I was all about building the duke. Everyone said it couldn't be done, so thats what I wanted to do... I got about $1400 into it, and was only running moderate 16. Not worth the time, money, or effort for me.

For $300 I picked up a 4.9L Caddy V8. $150 for motor mounts and it bolts up to the stock tranny. This motor dynos in others cars at about 170hp and 245tq. Its the best bang for the buck install/swap if thats what you want. My total conversion is at about $1000 right now, and all I have left to do is the wiring harness.

Just something to consider.

JC

Alot of people use the Mitsu turbos. I don't want to sway you away from the 4cyl, but You may want to look at other options.

I was all about building the duke. Everyone said it couldn't be done, so thats what I wanted to do... I got about $1400 into it, and was only running moderate 16. Not worth the time, money, or effort for me.

For $300 I picked up a 4.9L Caddy V8. $150 for motor mounts and it bolts up to the stock tranny. This motor dynos in others cars at about 170hp and 245tq. Its the best bang for the buck install/swap if thats what you want. My total conversion is at about $1000 right now, and all I have left to do is the wiring harness.

Just something to consider.

JC

Even though it's capable of 1000HP, the Iron Duke (or Duck), is expensive to build up. But for what I want, it's what I need. I could easily go to a V8, but the added weight would kill the handling G's I'm trying to acheive (1.1G's or higher, and 60-0 in under 95Ft). The weight balance of the Fiero 2.5 4cyl is perfect for a rear wheel drive car. And with about $8K put into the suspension and brakes, it will outhandle everything else on the road.... EVERYTHING!!! But only if I stick to this engine, or something just as light. Plus the fuel economy of a souped up 4, is much better than a standard V8, and remember, it's only a 12 gallon tank.

Now, with mitsu turbos, aren't those too small? They're made for 2.0L (some 2.2L), so, wouldn't I be overpowering the turbo? See, I found two turbos to fit my car, but they're too expensive.

See, if I knew which turbo and wastegate to use, that would be 2/3rds of the problem solved. The other third is making a custom exhaust headpipe between the manifold and the cat.

I was thinking about yanking a 2.4 Quad GM 4Cyl out of something (my cuz's Olds, if he ever crashes it or something), or buy a brand new 2.2 EcoTec (capable of 810HP), which is now sold separate online at GMpowertrain.com, and is going to have TONS of performance parts soon. But they both have superchargers now, so that also solves my blower need. And actually, both engines are aluminum, as opposed to the IRON duke, so who knows, maybe I'll get a 50/50 weight balance.....

I gotcha. I understand where your coming from.


But, just for the record...
Surprisingly the, Caddy 4.9 is only about 50 LBS heavier than the duke. And what I'm doing is removing all the a/c stuff, and putting the battery up front. This should help keep the balacing almost right on.

I'm with that stopping/handling thing as well. I was all about suspension and brakes before I even touched my motor. Problem being I killed the duke, and needed something big and light.

Yeah, I know bout the caddy, it's all aluminum, but that 50Lbs is the difference between 2550LBS and 2600LBS. If I know ahead of time that I'm going to race someone, I'll even eat less food for a week and shed off 10 LBS (off me). I'm big on weight saving. I'm even going for the aluminum OHV head, when I rebuild the engine, so I can get closer to 50/50, without adding weight, which is the way to go. I'm even deciding which wheels to get by getting the info on how much each one weighs (SCC Magazine May 2002).

Out of curiousity, what were you planning to use for your brake setup?? You mentioned you want to be able to stop quite well, were these numbers provisioned using stock brakes with great pads, or were u looking to go bigger rotors and such. With my bigger rotors (they're off a lebaron on all 4 corners), I gained ALOT of unsprung weight. Enough that you could feel it on that underpowered duke. Didnt' seem to affect handling according to ass-o-meter but I'm sure I lost an edge there too.

FYI: A bit of an update.....

KRP (Kansas Racing Products), the company that is licensed to maufacture the Iron Duke, but with redrillings to accept any Chevy Small Block Head, says that the DOHC 16V kit for the stock Fiero block is not availible. I guess the manufacturing license for the block didn't include the High Performance cylinder head that Pontiac designed.

So, if anyone finds one, new or used, don't care what condition,

TELL ME!!!

fieroturbo@MSN.com

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Now for the reply to JohnnyFiero
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I'm getting a completely new suspension and brake system from heldmotorsports.com. They have stock, 10.25, 12", and 13" rotors with quad piston calipers available, and stainless steel braided hoses and a high flow master cylinder. The 10.25 and 12" are those lighter rotors that are rivited together, but the 13's are sweeeeet! It's a one piece, but the rotors are this like goldish, oil/rainbowish color, and it's crossdrilled and slotted. Thing is, with the 2" drop, and the 13" rotors, you can't go any smaller than a 17" wheel. And it uses drop spindles to lower the car, not lowering springs, so the suspension geometry stays the same. And these guys have springs galore!!! Name a weight rating and height, and they have it for Fieros, even pro stuff.

So what's an Ass-O-Meter? Is it when you make a turn, with no seat belt on, and if your ass is perfectly flat on the door, it's 1.00G?

And why would you use Chyrsler brakes??? As much as I love Mopar (2nd favorite, with Pontiac 1st), the 80's and early 90's brakes on all Chryslers sucked ass. My 93 caravan had a caliper lock up, and it caught on fire!!! I've never seen a brake pad turn to ashes until then. I guess as long as you used the rotors, AND NOTHING BUT THE ROTORS, I guess it's ok. But having cross company parts on a car is a bitch.

Plus it puts shame to the car, and what it truly is, and what it can be.

The held setup is really nice. I'm familiar with that company. My brake setup is basically a mock buildup of theirs. The difference is that the Held setup is about $1000 where I've spent a max total of around $300.

I only used the rear rotors from the turbo lebaron (on each corner). The front calipers are from a Camaro Z28 and the rears are calipers from an old Caddilac so that you can retain the ebrake. I had adapters machined to allow the calipers to fit with the bigger discs. Also the front and rear brake pads are the same part number, so its actually not that confusing. And as far as shame to the car, no one knows what vehicle the calipers were originally intended for, and when I slam those brakes, I don't think anyone seems to matter. The car stops QUICK.

I am going to go with the held setup when I get the money. Its a much better designed system, and much prettier looking. (Especially with those zinc rotors). My car is setup for autox tho, and I needed something to help me keep up for now, and could be done with little budget. Thats what I came up with.

JC

Hey, cool, I had given up on this forum...

An interesting thing I saw, it's possible to slightly modify aftermarket NAPA Firebird rotors to fit. They are 11" or so, and quite thick, more than a stock FB.

Before I was bitten by the Porsche bug, I was hell bent on a Fiero as my first car. I still want one, bad. I am waiting for a good 88 GT in my area(BC), and then I will have one.

My current plans for my GT will include a 3400 TDC swap, and some nice big brakes. The interesting thing about the 3.4L DOHC motor is, they can be chipped up to a lot of power. I would put this motor on par with EFI turbo cars for chip potential.

About doing a turbo job, you must remember a few key things.
Put good studs in the head, exhaust and intaked manifolds.
Make sure you get a water cooled turbo, preferably an electronically controlled model. A Garrett T3 turbo would suit your needs best, but any turbo will work.
Decide on how much boost you want to run. This is absolutely critical. If you only want 5 lbs of boost, you don't need an intercooler, or much additional work for that matter. If you want to run 25lbs, you'll have to o-ring the block, and drop the compression to 6.5:1, not to mention complete revise the injection system.

Well Hello!

About your plan, the 3.4TDC is an awesome motor in a fiero. Its right at home where it should be and the personalities are meant for each other. This was the motor that I wanted to run in my car before I ended up with the 4.9. The only reason I went with 4.9 is because I just happen to stumble across one, and the entire swap is much cheaper. I plan to put the 3.4 in my daily driver soon as I develop the funds.

Ahh, the sound of these motors in fieros is unbelievable. Rev that thing out to 8k and listen to that F1 sound that hums behind your head. What a rush!

sticking with the 4 is ok for the ( WOW ) factor but you'll need engine management like a Tec3 or Holley commander 950 both retail for $1500, turbo specialties in birmingham, AL ar ethe prople to talk to.. we tuned their turbo type-r integra to 430hp at the wheels! a Variable Vein-turbo is nice for useable boost on the street but a T25 from an eclipse/talon is cheap and flanges are easily obtainable. with out massive boost, liquid to air intercoolers and lots of fuel modifications don't expect much over 225 at the wheels. a 3.4 push rod engine with a turbo will easily make over 300hp/330lbft at the wheels... (we've run one, and tuned a 2.8 turbo to 253hp/280lbft at 12psi) at the wheels.

ever think of running nitrous? i'm laying dow 279hp 312lbft out of my stock 2.8 automatic.

www.fiero.nl/uploads/1fstdynospray.jpg

I've been thinking about a small 50 or 75 shot on the 4.9. I've heard no opinions on what it would do for the block though. Its a lot of work to kill the rings in this baby just for experimental use. Given I can get another motor for around $300, its the fact that I have to take it out and convert everything to the new motor again. Whats your opinion??

i've run nitrous on everything from Suzuki swift GTIs, jeep wranglers, countless corvettes, an eldorado and an automatic geo metro.. i'm sure putting a 42 jet on a 4.9 would put you over the 350lbft mark at the ground safely!

WOW! I din't know it would do that much. I'm really interested. We had a 75 shot ZEX kit for the CRX that we never got to put on because the motor (SOHC vtec civic Engine) supposedly has some 'High mileage' rings and everyone we spoke to suggested, even though not mandatory, that we swap those out before installation.

1st question would be if I can use this same kit and convert it over to the Four-Nine? Other question being, what exactly else do I need? I'm sure you reccomend some sort of fuel management to go along with this as well as maybe other misc. hardware?

Basically, I'm trying to politely ask you to spill an 'ingredients' list for what I need to put the nitrous kit on.

(BTW, I know not much about this subject) Thanks in advance, John.

:eek: You gave up on this forum???

Why? In my opinion, with the internet booming (useage is at least, not stocks), Fiero's are more popular than ever. In fact, get the July 2002 issue of Sport Compact Car Magazine, and vote for the 3 Fieros that are listed in the USCC Ballot. One of them is owned by V8 Archie himself. It's the yellow chop top with the suicide doors and the Z06 Vette engine in it.

Also in that issue, is the guide to junkyard turbos. I know which vehicles to get a T3 off of now. And so what if it needs rebuilding, I'm getting it ceramic coated anyway, and rebuilding a used one is cheaper than buying a new one, but the ceramic coating makes up the price difference, I'm sure.
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WOW factor is right. If I'm gonna beat people in the USCC, I want it to be with a 4 Cylinder, not a clunky heavy V8.

And word of advice with the 3.4 swap, go with the Buick 3.8. There are more street legal parts for it (since it's been around since the 60's), and it has more torque with the same horsepower as the 3.4. The 3.8 has power at your command across the powerband, and it's made for boost, wether it's turbo, super, or NOS, it can take it, and it can take ALOT of it. More than the 3.4. The 3.4 is OK for lots of power, but reliability with Chevy's heads is the problem with the V6/60 blocks (2.8, 3.1, 3.4). Now if you go to spoperformance.com (GM's performance site), you'll see some beautiful heads, but none are street legal, all meant for NASCAR and off road stuff.

Ahh, the sound of these motors in fieros is unbelievable. Rev that thing out to 8k and listen to that F1 sound that hums behind your head. What a rush!

The 4 banger sounds like an angry hornet at 8K, rather than an F1 car, but still impressive. I wonder bout the 2.2 EcoTec and the 2.4 Quad though.

i've run nitrous on everything from Suzuki swift
Bout' freakin' time someone put performance parts on those things (Geo Metro clones). They weigh 1600LBs, and are asking for power. Makes me almost want to buy one.... almost.

you'll need engine management like a Tec3 or Holley commander
I've been looking at the Venom stuff for a few months now, and the one for S-10's should work, along with Venom's NOS stuff. Cheap, but still gets the job done.

I've been thinking about a small 50 or 75 shot on the 4.9. I've heard no opinions on what it would do for the block though.
Ceramic coat the piston tops, the chamber celings, and the valves. It'll reduce the heat by more than 100deg. and it'll add about 10-18% HP. $$$$$$$$$ :(

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Basically, I know I want a turbo, just which one is the question. And since I know nothing about the science behind oiling systems, I may have someone else do the job. I can do the rest, but the oiling stuff leaves me clueless.

So any advice on that is helpful.
Thanks.

P.S. You guys kick ass!

About the Rev thing, I was talking about a 3.4 TDC motor... But, you get your point across well on everything else.

About the ceramic coating thing, where can I find this kind of service? (I don't really know much about engine rebuilding places) Should I look towards a coatings place that does like powder coatings and such, or at the engine shops?

E-mail me bout the ceramic, or look at every other forum I've typed in, cause this is the 10th forum so far with me discussing ceramic coatings.

fieroturbo@MSN.com

Also, anyone who has tips on turbocharger oiling system design and hookup, and science, PLEASE let me tap into your brain....

with a Q-tip if necessary.

The easy way to do a turbo job if you don't feel like tapping into your block or oil pan, is to put an adapter between the oil filter and the block, or if you have an oil cooler, just interrupt it.

There are a few big things to look for in a turbo.

There are water cooled turbos, and there are oil cooled turbos. Water cooled turbos still oil for the bearings, and it does cool too, but it keeps your turbo cooler, and works as a secondary oil cooler. It will place a bigger load on you rad though. There is an internal water jacket around the bearing housing, which carries through coolant.

There are mechanical wastegates, and electronic wastegates. A mechanical wastegate is operated by a spring, with a preset pressure rating(1 bar spring opens at 1 bar manifold air pressure[MAP]).

An electronically controlled wastegate is opened by a signal. The signal is given either by the ECU, which reads it from a MAP sensor, or directly from the MAP sensor.

The best bet is to get a water cooled electronically controlled turbo. If you don't feel like paying for an electronic boost controller or a stand alone ECU, you can always just use a MAP sensor to trigger the wastegate to close. Of course, if you do ever want electronic boost control, you already have the turbo and sensor in place....

As I recall, Suzuki did make some turbo Swifts, they had some potential(turbo sprints too).

I like the 3400 TDC for it's Ferrari like power, it really flies in the top end. I am getting a Audi 5 cylinder for the 924, that make 260 lbft at 1950 rpm, so I already have a car with low end grunt.

My plans for a Fiero are a 3400TDC with the F355 front facia, but only the front facia. I don't quite know what I'm going to do for brakes yet, or the suspension for that matter.

http://members.roadfly.com/cbass/F355fiero.jpg
http://www.pelkie.com/Glubrecht/FieroDTC.jpg

I have an interesting project going on, and it kinda ties in closely with some of yours. I was looking at different heads that with some machine work could fit on a 2.5, like a quad four head. I was also looking to pimp out the iron duke in my 84 se, but I didn't want to go head on into it like alot of others had, and waste money. I caught my father looking the other way and ripped off his mercruiser engine out of his boat, ok, so he gavee it to me. I know it's a 153, and not a 151, but the block is very similar, and it's rated for 120 hp without a single performance part. I have a few things I am going to do to it before I install it, mainly a few valvetrain mods, swapping pistons and connecting rods, to handle thee turbo from a 6.5l diesel I got for it. I'm just sick of the Honda guys being the only ones running big turbos. I have future pans for a wet nitrous setup, but not untill I get the turbo dialed in. Keep the messagees coming, guys, it's good to hear from others trying to build up 4cyl performance in fieros, not taking the easy way out and bolting in a 350.

Check out V-8 Archies, He installs small block Chevy V-8s for about $3000 or less depending on what you want.

I would suggest Nitrous Kit or a MPFI swap if I remember right my 84 fiero had a TBI setup and those dont work as well when running a turbo or super charger set up. A good turbo kit could be made for under a 1 grand using junkyard setups (dont expect it to be perfect). My question is where would the intercooler go on a fiero? For cheap 4 banger ohv speed Id just suggest some sort of nitrous set up. Best bet would be to find a DOHC 4cyl that will fit in for cheap. Im all about handling and good gas mileage thats why I own a CRX. From my expierience my fiero understeered really bad. For suspension what are you running? Id suggest if they make it for your car some H&R springs and Koni adjustable struts. What brakes? Brembo??? Just curious cause could never find much aftermarket parts for my old fiero.