12s finally

4500 on the odo and the old EVO finally ran a 12 second pass. :D Mods are exhaust, intake, boost controller. This was on pump gas. Here's an update to my local board.

Not a bad night over all. Not too busy, and it cooled off soon (but was humid, couldn't keep the windows from fogging without the AC). Went up with pump gas, no changes other than DSMlink. Went 5 mph faster and got it done 7 tenths quicker. Right up until the last run I was picking up 1-2 mph per pass by adding timing. The clutch doesn't like to be slipped at all. On the last run I let it out a little harder, still slipped, but was good enough for a 1.74, resulting in 12.74 at 108 mph. Timing was 12 degrees total. AFR was 11:1 according to DSMlink, 12.8 according to the wide band (exhaust leak? :D ). I couldn't get more than ~41 lbs/min no matter what I did with boost. On the highway driving home it was even cooler, boost peaked at 28 psi in the mid range, but tapered to the usual 22 psi. Airflow was 42 lbs thanks to the extra density mostly. Turned the MBC back down the two turns I added at the track, boost was 22 psi tapering to 21. 2 turns should have been a lot of boost, guess the turbo is maxed out, giving me more faith in the airflow numbers...

Cams at this point wont add any more airflow from what I can see, but at least I'll be able to do it at lower boost. I'll be going to the track Saturday to continue tuning on race gas or some mix, and get some practice on the pro tree before the shootout. I would say I'm going to work on the 60 foot, but I can't see the clutch cooperating. :)

thats fucking awesome man....Probably get to 12s a lot quicker (time wise) in that car than our old beat up dsms. Man 12s just with those few mods....thats just crazy.

you goto remember that EVO's have a way better drive train than most GSX's not to mention stock they have a 16g. of the floor they are awsome machines, cant wait ot get mine some day. i want the MR.

i've been seriously considering trading in my 96 gsx on a base model evo.

yeah... mr for me too! :evillol:

Very nice, Kevin! The fact dsmlink is compatible with Evos (well I say compatible but I mean that it can be done :) ) is the best news I've heard in a long time. I'm curious though, does it still offer all the neat features like the knock or coolant temp CEL?

After reading this, that you've trapped 108mph with just those few mods, I'm more tempted than ever to part out the gsx (while keeping a few parts that I can use on the evo) and sell it so I can buy an Evo :) Doesn't help that my local dealership has an Evo RS with like 12k miles on it for dirt cheap ;)

Congrats on the numbers and I want to see 11's on the stock turbo, damnit :icon16:

Great driving, Kevin! I'm also interested in how much you were knocking, with only 12 degrees of timing advance and 12.8:1 on the wideband :uhoh:

That's kind of a lean A/F for our cars, is it not? I suspect yours is under warranty, so you're not super worried about blowing something up ;)

Keep up the good work, and show us 11s on race gas and more boost (and maybe an aftermarket clutch, when your stocker dies)!

That turbo is maxed out hardcore. I don't even think Kevin needs the MBC at this point (at the track). There is no boost left to add, and since pump gas isn't knocking, race gas isn't needed in the same sense that you could add airflow to a DSM. Could lean it out of course, but 12.8 doesn't leave a whole lot of room for that. :D

Now it's a question of whether you can stand a slow (yeah right) daily driver or if you're going to slap a 56 trim on there like I told you to. Do you have the 1g anymore?

I don't think the turbo is maxed out quite yet. I'm willing to bet some nice cams will be good for another lb/min or two. With cams, race gas, and a little more timing I'd say 11's are definitely possible with Kevin driving ;)

Thanks for the kind words guys. I wont call it good driving until I get into the 1.6s though :D Damn clutch..

Well, some interestings news on this. I was talking to Bill Kehn, a local NEDSM member, while we worked on his 2g (he finally took out my local 2g record of 11.3, with an 11.1. That car will be sick soon). He also has an EVO with DSMlink and the same mods (cams already in). He said he was getting up to ~45 lbs/min at high boost with the cams, but it was colder out. I find it odd I can only get to 42 lbs now, I have to wonder if the BOV or something else isnt in fact hurting me for boost. It was holding ~28 psi in the midrange though. The BOV and such should not care what RPM the pressure is made at, it will just leak at a given pressure. But Bills numbers give me more hope! another 3 lbs/min is another 3mph, never mind doing it on race gas.

At any rate, he also has problems with his WBO2 matching the DSMlink estimate, and suggested that it may be the pump since they are not rewired in either of our cars. All of my calculations were done with the rewired flow numbers! So for shits and grins I turned the boost down to 15 psi on the way back home, getting 35 pounds/min, and WTF! the WBO2 matched my target 11:1 AFR. Holy shit... So I come home and do the math using the 12.5 volt numbers, and sure enough with AFR of 11:1, SG of .76, it will support 35-36 lbs/min. I love it when the math works! Once again, DSMlink has provided accurate usefull data that has allowed me to test a theory and come up with a root cause. I will not run a car without dSMlink. Ever. :)

So this means a few things. One, I was actually running 12.7:1 on my 108 pass, with NO KNOCK, on pump gas. These motors/combustion chambers are badass... Two, I can rewire the pump and be good to 45 lbs/min on race gas, and 43 lbs/min on pump, which is just enough to cover me. Sweet.

What a night... I can't wait to get the cams in today and rewire the pump, and run it saturday at the local Import event. Speaking of which, I need to find a way to pull better 60 foots without smoking the clutch. I am going to try a lower RPM to keep the speed differential lower, while using DSMlink's antilag to build more boost even at that low RPM to prevent it from bogging. By adjusting the MPH at which the antilag dissengages I should be able to work this out. I hope. I'm thinking of dropping RPM from the typical 5500 to 4000 RPM, and building ~5-10 psi on the anitlag if possible. I'll adjust accordingly. With any luck it will work and I'll be set for the shootout. I'm just too old for a twin disc install the day before I leave for Ohio :D

I will not run a car without dSMlink. Ever. :)



You know, if I didn't have dsmlink I'd say you were crazy. However, I can completely understand where you are coming from and I will keep my dsmlink chip/eprom ecu if/when I buy an evo :grinyes: Oh yea, quick question about that - did you have to wire in the complete dsm ecu to the evo or just use the dsmlink chip on the evo ecu?



So this means a few things. One, I was actually running 12.7:1 on my 108 pass, with NO KNOCK, on pump gas. These motors/combustion chambers are badass... Two, I can rewire the pump and be good to 45 lbs/min on race gas, and 43 lbs/min on pump, which is just enough to cover me. Sweet.


I just shit a brick as I read that. As of that statement I am now sold on eventually buying an Evo :) As if the the 4g63 in the dsms weren't amazing enough, they are 10x better in the Evos! It's almost magic.


What a night... I can't wait to get the cams in today and rewire the pump, and run it saturday at the local Import event. Speaking of which, I need to find a way to pull better 60 foots without smoking the clutch. I am going to try a lower RPM to keep the speed differential lower, while using DSMlink's antilag to build more boost even at that low RPM to prevent it from bogging. By adjusting the MPH at which the antilag dissengages I should be able to work this out. I hope. I'm thinking of dropping RPM from the typical 5500 to 4000 RPM, and building ~5-10 psi on the anitlag if possible. I'll adjust accordingly. With any luck it will work and I'll be set for the shootout. I'm just too old for a twin disc install the day before I leave for Ohio :D


You need the antilag to build 5-10psi of boost on the line? Does the 2-step on dsmlink not provide that much boost on the line? I'd think a with a 16g (although not the average dsm 16g) you could build at least 10psi on the line with the stutterbox :eek7: Does the Evo not like the stutterbox?

I intend to use an unusually low stutter rpm, and am not expecting to be building much boost if any. At 5500 rpm straight stutter box I get ~7 psi. I know I used to get 12-15 psi on the 14b, and at elast 12 on a regular big and small 16g. I'm assuming the 10.5 cm turbine housing lowered it to 7.

I kicked on the antilag, no fuel added, default 10 degrees ATDC, and pegged the guage around 30 psi within like 3 stutters :D I played with the timing retard a bit and got boost under control at 0 degrees fixed. I'll try the same thing at 4k possibly move it up to 5 ATDC if necessary. Once I play with it some tomorrow I'll have a better idea of where I'll start at. The cams will also affect boost on the stutter, so I'll test it out with them in.

I have seen pics of used EvO pistons that were taken to show the superior burn pattern of the EVO combustion chamber. I wont pretend to be an expert on the subject, but from what I do know it looked very different from a DSM ;) Very well done motor, finally.

Oh yeah, I was also NLTSing all shifts on my later passes. This tranny feels like ass when just driving around, so I didn't have high hopes. But when no lift shifting/stutter shifting, it worked like a champ. Very quick and smooth shifts, for me. :) Antilag is definitely not necessary on the shifts, this turbo respools almost instantly. .2 seconds in fourth to be exact. I also checked boost threshold last night finally. Third gear gets ~22 psi by 3300.

Kevin you are one crazy son of a bitch, you can make anything fast!!! Good job on the 12 second pass, so will low 11 seconds be anytime soon?


Keep the good work up and keep us updated!

Thanks :) Depends on how far I want to go with this car. It still has 4000 miles on it, hard to work up the balls to throw a big turbo on it. What I really need to do is build a full race 1g so I can leave the EVO alone :D I would like to hit 11s on the stock turbo, but I'm sure that is going to require a little twin disc clutch swap... I almost ordered it yesterday to throw in for the SO, but I don't want the stress that goes along with last minute work before the SO. I want the car done today... I'm too old for this shit.

WOW! I'm ordering dsmlink & wideband this month. Even if my cylinder head blows up (agian)! Made it offical with the Fiance' last night. It was somewhat of a cold night for being August :smooch:

God job Kevin!



Now please excuse me, while I get back to reading everything you ever posted. :bananasmi :worshippy

i've been seriously considering trading in my 96 gsx on a base model evo.


Whats the EVO model??? Anyone care to fill me in please?

base model evo = evoVIII RS. Striped down base, base model, $28 and some change.

No doubt amazing car. You have to love that huge exhaust side on the turbo. You knock down a 12 second pass and everyone yells 11's! :D I hope people understand that you're running the most possible boost... I would love to see 12.4 @ 110 with cams and a signature POSR 1.55 60', but 11's? people are crazy.

Cams are in. Not a bad job. Not sure about the airflow gain, since I'm scared to turn up the wick now that I know the pump is inadequate. There wasnt enough time to investigate this today though.

At any rate, airflow was 39 lbs at 18 psi, an improvement, but not as much as I've seen on DSMs. We'll see what happens when I can turn it up further.

11s are certainly possible IMO on the stock Evo turbo. I'm not sure if it can be done on the launch of a shitty stock clutch, though. The Evo8 16g flows more than the EvoIII, and guys are running 11s on that. You'll need race gas, boost to stay above 23 psi, and some excellent tuning/driving. Looks like Kevin has all of that, though :)

FWIW, the guys making 400+ whp on the EvoIII 16g say boost spikes to around 30, then settles down to 23-24 psi. These guys don't have the 34mm flapper mod, of course.

Keep us updated, Kevin.

11s are certainly possible IMO on the stock Evo turbo. I'm not sure if it can be done on the launch of a shitty stock clutch, though. The Evo8 16g flows more than the EvoIII, and guys are running 11s on that. You'll need race gas, boost to stay above 23 psi, and some excellent tuning/driving. Looks like Kevin has all of that, though :)

FWIW, the guys making 400+ whp on the EvoIII 16g say boost spikes to around 30, then settles down to 23-24 psi. These guys don't have the 34mm flapper mod, of course.

Keep us updated, Kevin.

Don't mean to be negative but maybe I'll learn something. Race gas is to prevent knock so you can turn up the boost and run leaner. Kevin is running the max boost on the turbo, obviously if it's dropping off. There's no way to 'keep it up'. 28psi dropping to 22psi seems the same as what we think it can do, it's possible that the EVO has some added VE. 12.8 is real lean for pump... I don't see much improvement to be had there. The 60' is going to come with a clutch.

Much respect for being able to max out a fuel system AND turbo with a respectable AFR for pump gas. Even a great 60' for a stock clutch. In my opinion, the post says "i accomplished finding the limits of the near stock EVO" and I'm happy with it doing high 12's with ~$500 in parts.

Well, with only 7 degrees of peak timing advance, Kevin was not making as much power as he could have. Adding race gas should help fix this. Evo8 turbos have made more than 400awhp, and with good driving, that should be enough for 11s. Cams, new clutch, and race gas may be required, though.

What do you think Kevin? Will you realistically see 11s on the stocker?

Well, with only 7 degrees of peak timing advance, Kevin was not making as much power as he could have. Adding race gas should help fix this. Evo8 turbos have made more than 400awhp, and with good driving, that should be enough for 11s. Cams, new clutch, and race gas may be required, though.

What do you think Kevin? Will you realistically see 11s on the stocker?

I agree. I've read about and heard about MANY stock turbo Evo's doing high 11's in the 1/4. Of course that came with great driving and some race gas, but the parts lists are also fairly short and simple. Now that Kevin has some cams in I'd expect to see at least 2 more lbs/min on race gas on that stock turbo, which coupled with higher boost, more timing advance, and a nice launch should net an 11.xx timeslip for sure.

Extreme Evolution VIII was put down at 11.94 in the ¼ still running the stock turbo

Well, I certainly intent to run 11s on the stock turbo. Wether or not I can do it is still debatable. :) There have been a few breakthroughs since I last posted.

First, I picked up a solid 3 mph gain on the cams, despite not really getting any more peak airflow. I was at nearly 42 lbs/min, but I guess that may be significant considering this was a day time event (Which I never do) and hot as hell. There can be a couple lbs/min difference between day and night this time of year, and I have logged it on this setup. Otherwise the 3 mph gain would have to be attributed to making more airflow over more of the time, rather than just looking at peak numbers I guess. Either way, it was a solid gain, many runs in the 111 mph bracket. I think the best was 111.4. The mph is there for some pretty low 12s right now with a good 60 foot. This was a mix of 3 gallons 93 octane, and 2 gallons 117. I did not change any settings at all though, so the fuel should not have changed the power level. It was just for safety since I could not richen up the mixture at all, and wasnt sure what the airflow would do with the cams installed. Eventually I will run race gas straight and add more timing.

Another thing is I rewired the pump last night after the race with an 8 guage feed and monster relay. The EVO also has a duel voltage pump feed stock. The voltage drops to something like 8 volts at idle to prevent FPR over run, then goes to 12 volts at WOT. I put a meter on it at idle and it was 12 volts. So without the EVO ECU, it reverted to the 12 volt setting. Thats good :) Doing some highway pulls the results were amazing, but not unexpected. WBO2 matches the DSMlink target AFR almost perfectly, at 41-42 lbs/min. So no airflow with the cams, peak. But at least I dont have to run 12.7:1 any longer :) I've found that sometimes, being at that AFR on pump, I could gain power by ADDING fuel. I may run pump gas wednesday night to see if I can get any more mph out of it.

Timing has been at 12 degrees for the last couple weeks. Stock is 9 degrees.

Not getting any more airflow with cams would tell me that the turbo is maxed out, except for one problem. The boost did not change. If the turbo is maxed out, and you increase VE, the boost will drop. For example, a 16g on a 2 liter can do 25 psi or so. On a strocker, you'd be lucky to hold more than 16 or so. Same concept. Since boost did not drop, I have to assume I may not have a airflow limitation, but a boost limitation. I am still on the stock plastic BOV since my Gus modded 1g BOV locked up last friday, and has now mysteriously fallen out of my trunk on its own. I may order a Perrin valve, real boost guage, and pod, for the SO. I am also installing a 3.3 bar MAP sensor off a Duramax Diesel so I can log boost. Gotta love DSMlink...

Hopefully with more octane, more airflow, and more tuning, I can up the mph to what others have seen. A local NEDSM member with the same setup as me ran 12.0 at 113, IIRC. I'd like to match that mph at least, until I decide wether or not I want to do a clutch (and void my drivetrain warranty).

lol, chew up your stock clutch. Then replace it, If somthing in your drive-train breakes put the chewed up clutch back in. Tow that bitch into the Shop.

That clutch is really the weak link in an evo 8. I have heard horror stories and seen pictures of stock evo 8 clutchs used for race clutchs. Its not pretty, most of the clutches disintegrated before they ever seen the 3k mark. i dont mean to gynx you but i would take it easy on the clutch at the shoot out. if you want to drive the evo home that is.... But if your trailering it... :icon16:.... :devil: ..Get Natsty on that Bitch... :chair: ...... :owned:

Whoa! You're sig pic is bollixing the formatting on the whole page :D Might want to shrink that a bit.

I'm definitely trailering it. ;) After trailering all of last year there is no going back, even on a nearly stock car. Great peace of mind... I'm sure I'll only get a handful of runs in anyway, so I think it will be able to take it. Not like the poeple that launch it every day for 3k miles then complain when it quits. :) I've made 3 runs so far slipping it badly and it still works the balls. I have the cash for a twin disc if I feel I need to get that done after the SO. Launching at low RPM on antilag results in no clutch slippage at all, but my best short time like this was 1.81. I'm going back to the track wednesday to continue trying to improve on this technique. If I can't make any headway with it, I'll resort to hard launches at 5500-6000 again, and just let the cluth out faster..

Hahaha, I love how Kevin bought the Evo as a daily driver, and now is going to be trailering it to the Shootout and hoping for 11s :lol:

Kind of like me intending to wait a few years to upgrade the turbo...now I have an AFC, 16g, fmic, etc. :banghead: Our cars are addictive!

Congrats Racer!! :smokin:

Thanks


Its even tougher for me to resist the urge know, since I actually have some idea what I am doing. Its much easier this time around...

Quick update, went to the track tonight and ran full race gas, and the car fell on its face. Down 3 mph at 108 no matter what I did to the settigns. I'll keep it short, so suffice it to say that everything was the same as last sautrday except the fuel. On teh way home on pump, I dropped the timing a bit and it still pulled hard. For the sake of experimentation, I cranked the new HK$ EVC 5 all the way up. Ran 24 psi dropping to 20 by redline (stupid turbo), 9 degrees advance, and 11.2:1 AFR, peak of 43 lbs/min. Car friggin ripped. I might run full pump at the SO, or perhaps 1 or 2 gallons of 117 just for safetys sake. Too bad I bought 85 dollars worth tonight (10 gallons)... I lost my 1g BOV and the adapter I welded up, so SBR is going to bring them out to ohio for me on saturday. Sweet. Otherwise, I'm going to install the stock BOV backwards and just not lift on the shifts (As usual). Shouldnt leak then :D

Off to bed...