Seat Belt Question

I TRIED TO POST THIS EARLIER BUT IT WOUND UP IN THE BUICK GN FORUM SOMEHOW.

I didn't want to post this in the other thread... it just seems wrong to do it there.

IF a car manufacturer puts a seat belt in a car and the car is able to do in excess of the seat belt's strength and the seat belt breaks and fails to protect the driver... does the driver have grounds for a claim against the manufacturer???? The manufacturer is inherently stating that their vehicle is safe to drive at those speeds by providing safety equipment and permitting the vehicle to "do the speed" that the speedometer indicates. If the safety equipment can't handle speeds in excess of 100 mph, then the vehicle should not be able to exceed 100 mph.

Even if the owner / driver circumvents the manufacturers intentions of speed limitations via modifications to the engine / drivetrain etc, the manufacturer should be somewhat responsible for safety claims up to the speeds indicated on the speedometer of a stock car.

I mean... Christ if Hypsi was only doing 100, and the belt broke... maybe the damn seat belt didn't do it's job? (and yeah 100 isn't really THAT fast... if a KIA minivan can do it...) Something maybe his family ought to consider.

I understand that the manufacturer can't be responsible for a driver who's abusing the vehicle, but for a seta belt to BREAK??? That's just downright scary.

Common sense tells me that during a car accident some pretty unpredictable things can happen so the fact that the belt broke probably isn't because the belt wasn't strong enough but maybe some other factor in the accident. So before we get all sue happy up in here, maybe we should think about some factors that we don't realize are there until we are in a car flipping at over 100 mph. Don't get me wrong I am just as upset about the whole situation as most are on the boards, but think about the forces that were exerted on the car in that situation. The force put on the seat belt was probably much greater than that of a 100 mph crash, the car was flipping that can create a lot of centripital force.

well hell i thought about that too, and god has had my back because i fliped my brand new honda accord over 17 times and walked away with three scratches! seatbelt grabed me right as i was going for the windshield and threw me back into the seat and yes i was doing over 100 miles an hr.(driving after a fight with a ex) and it made me think back to that when i heard the bad news this past weekend. if they make cars that can and will do the speeds they post on them i think something as simple as a seatbelt should be field tested to the limit. and yes im cocky enough to say even at high rates of speed, and in situations when the car is fliping. ive seen many accedents where the seatbelt has caused the enjury and has killed people, ive seen the ones when it just all out failed and the driver was ejected. i guess what im getting at is they need to cover all aspects of safty and what a car could possibly be put through

Common sense tells me that during a car accident some pretty unpredictable things can happen so the fact that the belt broke probably isn't because the belt wasn't strong enough but maybe some other factor in the accident. So before we get all sue happy up in here, maybe we should think about some factors that we don't realize are there until we are in a car flipping at over 100 mph. Don't get me wrong I am just as upset about the whole situation as most are on the boards, but think about the forces that were exerted on the car in that situation. The force put on the seat belt was probably much greater than that of a 100 mph crash, the car was flipping that can create a lot of centripital force.


I full well understand that an accident is just that, and by definition something is going to occur that was planned for. HOWEVER.. a seat belt shouldn't fail, ever... especially not to the point where it snaps and the driver is ejected. If cars will be going faster and safety is touted then the first line of defense, the seat belt, should be the last thing to fail. Christ they make air bags out of steel wire... why not incorporate that into seat belts so that they won't crap out when you need them the most. Maybe they should make 3,4,or 5 point restraint systems mandatory on performance cars? (I'm thinking about replacing mine with a better set now, my seat belts are 35 years old!)

Sue happy ("litigious" is the word)... nawww. But if there was a manufacturing defect in the belt or restraint system then I wouldn't blame them if they sued, hell I'd probably encourage them.

Hope my seatbelt never fails, that would suck.

yea, even though my accident wasn't a high speed one I am wondering if I should replace my seatbelt now because of whatever stress was put on it

yea, even though my accident wasn't a high speed one I am wondering if I should replace my seatbelt now because of whatever stress was put on it

Maybe, I suggest to replace the seatbelt like every 10 or so years after 10 cause that's really when it starts messing up.

You know, that would be a good question for your insurance agent. Once in a wreck I'd be hesistant to place any faith in it.


I think I'm evenutally gonna go with a 5 point harness amd some APC seat (Jeg's got a real nice set of APC's reb/black for like $300-ish. I'll see if I can post it up.

Here:
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/246412034124103.jpg

&

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/2464124717001BK.jpg

(Yeah I know that's not a 5 point, I got the wrong one, the 5 point is virtually the same.)

For your Camaro, i'd definatley do it, Jim. Your car pushes alot of HP.

A few things....

1: Andy's GN that he was driving was a 87 1987 (I believe, could be wrong.) Thats almost TWENTY YEARS.

Did someone mention that they wear out after 10 years?

And with anything, alot of little 'jerks' and 'bumps' could wear it out. I'm thinking that it was just a horrible combination of bad luck, bad tread, and just old materials for the seatbelt. Also, they don't say HOW the seatbelt failed. Maybe the bolts on the frame ripped out, (Andy was not a thin guy. No disrespect man.) and that is a possibility. The locking mechanism where you do the 'clicker' motion (Shut up :P) could have failed and merely just came out.

Lotsa of variables. But if it was torn, unfortunately i'm leaning against nearly 20 year old materials wearing out in hot sun, cold winter and all sorts of conditions.

A really unfortunate accident.

I'm going to definately install a 5/6 pt belt w/ racing seats on my project car because Andy showed us what is a tragedic outcome.

something to remember is that no production car is really designed to survive flipping end over end, otherwise we would see production roll bars and cages. seatbelts are designed to operate in a linear crash, but when the car is subjected to the multitude of directional forces associated with flipping, and lets all not forget andy wasnt exactly a featherweight, i think its pretty understandable that it failed.

Here:
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/246412034124103.jpg

&

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/2464124717001BK.jpg

(Yeah I know that's not a 5 point, I got the wrong one, the 5 point is virtually the same.)

lol, the cam lock design of the 5 point to get out all the straps come free of the cam lock so you have that peice of metal in your hand and well you chuck it on the seat on your way out of the car... then you might sit on it if you forget about it... and it might get f-ing hot in the bright ass summer sun and lets not forget that each of the 5 straps have to be snapped back into the cam lock to be secure... you could only do 3 but then that just defeats the purpose of having a 5 point system, eventually you will get tired of pluging all 5 in and possibley not even using your seatbelt which is totally a bad idea... i have been thinking about the 5 point harness with camlock from jegs for awhile now, but i think im gonna still have my regular starps to just incase i have to run to the store for some milk and bread.

I only have a lap belt now. And yeah a 5 point my be a pain in the ass, but with a wife and 2 small children, one on the way, I think I'll deal with the inconvenience (sp?). I'll probably look like the biggest jackass in the world cruisin around with a 5 point on, but better safe than sorry.

No one makes a 3 point belt do they??? If they do are they worth it or would you just stay with a 5 - 6 point???

I think you can take the 5 pt belt and just hooke up 3, crotch and 2 shoulders.

I think you can take the 5 pt belt and just hooke up 3, crotch and 2 shoulders.

why the f would you do that? the lap part is what holds you in, and if you hit teh breaks hard enough there goes your ballsyou can just hook as many as you want into it, you can hook up the LAP + 1 Shoulder and it makes it kinda like a stock belt.

oh and btw, if you get the 5 / 6 point harness you better mount the shoulder parts to a 4 point roll cage.... if you just mount them to the floor it will pull on your back and f it all up and since you have young kinds and stuff that wont be good to have a back thats all messed up

Man, only a lap belt? Thought only 1st gens came with that. Anyway, I love my Camaro's seatbelt, Im not sure if this is only for 3rd gens or what but if you hit the gas hard enough or the brakes the seatbelt strains itself like if you just got in a crash, I think that's pretty cool, my Monte does the same thing but on a lesser level, like its more relaxed. Does the 4th gens have this btw?

I think te guy I bought it off of couldn't find the shoulder belt when he redid it. It wasn't an issue on the safety inspection so I'm not really sure if it orignall had a shoulder belt or not. ALSO I"m not entirely positive that the WHOLE interior is original either... Don't really care that much.

BUT... You're supposed to hook up multi-point harnesses to rollcages??? Uh-oh. There goes my (mostly) stock-looking interior. Sucks. I need a way to safety-up my maro w/o making it to "new" looking. I like the old style better. I'll have to see if I can find some other ways to do it... Got any ideas???

Man, only a lap belt? Thought only 1st gens came with that. Anyway, I love my Camaro's seatbelt, Im not sure if this is only for 3rd gens or what but if you hit the gas hard enough or the brakes the seatbelt strains itself like if you just got in a crash, I think that's pretty cool, my Monte does the same thing but on a lesser level, like its more relaxed. Does the 4th gens have this btw?


I'm not sure. The seatbelt in my third gen doesn't do that... well at least the shoulder part doesn't... the passenger side one is even worse. The shoulder belt on the passenger side doesn't even retract itself. It just hangs there.

I was going to get a 5-point belt and seats, but I don't have a roll cage... I don't know what I am going to do about it now.

I'm not sure. The seatbelt in my third gen doesn't do that... well at least the shoulder part doesn't... the passenger side one is even worse. The shoulder belt on the passenger side doesn't even retract itself. It just hangs there.

I was going to get a 5-point belt and seats, but I don't have a roll cage... I don't know what I am going to do about it now.

I do know that they are supposed to hold you in, lock up when you brake hard, you better get that fixed.

I think te guy I bought it off of couldn't find the shoulder belt when he redid it. It wasn't an issue on the safety inspection so I'm not really sure if it orignall had a shoulder belt or not. ALSO I"m not entirely positive that the WHOLE interior is original either... Don't really care that much.

BUT... You're supposed to hook up multi-point harnesses to rollcages??? Uh-oh. There goes my (mostly) stock-looking interior. Sucks. I need a way to safety-up my maro w/o making it to "new" looking. I like the old style better. I'll have to see if I can find some other ways to do it... Got any ideas???

the shoulder strap part anyway, if you mount the shoulders to the floor when you hit hte breaks hard or hit something and you go foward they will pull down on you and throws your back out of place reall bad, you need to mount them to the bar that runs from driver side to passenger side right behind the seats of the 4 point cage... this way they pull back on you instead of down.

and if you hit teh breaks hard enough there goes your balls .. that's funny.

yea... your belts are supposed to lock when you hit the brakes hard. different ones take varying levels of force to make them lock.

I was already planning on getting red 4-point seat belts. But now I feel like I should get them sooner than I planned. I'm planning on using the upper backing of the seat (aftermarket racing seats) to mount the shoulder strap sections, then mounting a short strap from the rear headrest area to the location where the factory seat belt mounts to the roof, to keep the seat from reclining forward in a crash. I'm won't be puting a roll cage in a daily driver.... but I do take safety precautions. Hopefully, I will never need 4-point seat belts, but it's good insurance.

the reason for the roll cage with the five point cage is that if you run them down to the floor it compresses your spine and can break your back, paralizing you. you want them to run back and secure at a 90* angle back from your shoulders so they pull back on your shoulders holding you in the seat.

the reason for the roll cage with the five point cage is that if you run them down to the floor it compresses your spine and can break your back, paralizing you. you want them to run back and secure at a 90* angle back from your shoulders so they pull back on your shoulders holding you in the seat.

lol, looks like i know some stuff to, atleast i was on the right track huh? :smokin:

That whole compressing your spine stuff doesnt sound very fun. Imagine the sound that would make....gah.....the pain...

the reason for the roll cage with the five point cage is that if you run them down to the floor it compresses your spine and can break your back, paralizing you. you want them to run back and secure at a 90* angle back from your shoulders so they pull back on your shoulders holding you in the seat.


right, I'm aware of that. this is why I'm mounting the shoulder straps to the rear of the seat (above shoulder level). this just allows me to accomplish the same thing without a rollcage.

right, I'm aware of that. this is why I'm mounting the shoulder straps to the rear of the seat (above shoulder level). this just allows me to accomplish the same thing without a rollcage.

Kind of what I was thinking of doing after all the posts about wrecking your spine... but is that ok to do... is it safe and do the manufacturers recommend against / for installing harnesses that way???

I'm sure it's not commonly done. but if the seat reclines forward (so people can get into the back seat) it definitely won't have the strength to hold you back, even some of those that don't relcine forward don't have the strength.

But with some welding and maybe a little metal cutting anythin can be done. Just remember a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

I'm considering connecting the "short strap" directly to the shoulder straps with a carabiner
http://www.kayaksandpaddles.co.uk/rock_climbing/product-pics/karabiners/lynx_hms-2.jpg
(the same stuff they use for rock climbing) so that it is quickly and easily dettached so that seat can recline to get people in the back seat. some of those carabiners are plastic or weak metal (for key chains and stuff), so if you do it similarly, get one from a sports equipment shop.

easily dettached so that seat can recline to get people in the back seat. some of those carabiners are plastic or weak metal (for key chains and stuff), so if you do it similarly, get one from a sports equipment shop.

nah, just buy like 30 of the ones at kmart they sell on the counter for 0.39$ and go hiking. :P they'll hold you just fine.

Seems like way more trouble than I'm willing to get involved in. I guess I'll wind up going to a pro for this too.... dammit

lol, i have also thought about doing that but im not trying to do mods to my seat. and if i bolt the stink to the seat back i might feel that as im sitting that will be poking me in the back and im not trying to have that, thats why im checking out roll cages...

you should under no circumstances mount the belts to your seat, i might be misunderstanding there. also i do not know if the "hoop" across the back seats that makes up the roof of a camaro is strong enough, id like at least a roll bar welded to the frame to mount to.

you should under no circumstances mount the belts to your seat, i might be misunderstanding there. also i do not know if the "hoop" across the back seats that makes up the roof of a camaro is strong enough, id like at least a roll bar welded to the frame to mount to.


ok well you lost me IROC. the design that I have in mind will work without a problem and it uses the factory mounting locations for the belts. i think it might require more explaination than it is worth typing (unless somebody else is going to do it).

well i could see that as far as some of the mounts go, but for the second shoulder harness that would mount in the center of the roof you dont have a factory mount to use. and would have to mount to the structure of the car, which i dont think is strong enough at that point.

hah! - What if I got the seat upholstered in velcro and made a matching vecro vest? :dunno: :slap: :ylsuper: :twak: :screwy: :smokin: :naughty: :smooch:

This is (almost) more of a pain in the ass than it's worth. I just need something more than a damn lap belt! Jeeezzz. At this rate I might as well go buy a totalled maro and start all over.

hah! - What if I got the seat upholstered in velcro and made a matching vecro vest? :dunno: :slap: :ylsuper: :twak: :screwy: :smokin: :naughty: :smooch:

This is (almost) more of a pain in the ass than it's worth. I just need something more than a damn lap belt! Jeeezzz. At this rate I might as well go buy a totalled maro and start all over.

Why dont you just go ahead and do that already? BTW why the use of all those faces? :lol2: