Damn Religion

Why won't it just die! Its time is up, it was ok back in ancient times when people did not know any better and it seemed like the best way to explain nature, but now when there have been the advances in science that have progressed far enough understand how things came to be, it needs to show some courtesy and bow out. My case in a point, all one needs to do is look at the stars to know the bible is wrong. For example SN 1987A a supernova that occured 50 kiloparsecs which is 164,000 lightyears away. A star blew up 164,000 years ago, and yet over 50% (muslims, jews and christians) of the earth's population believe in a religion that thinks the universe is around 10,000 years old.

There is no way to use logic to explain away things that people take on faith. Our sciences are based only on our observations, theories, and reason, all of which are completely irrelevant in a situation where an all powerful deity runs the show. People also take comfort in the familiarity of religion and not having to worry about things they don't understand.

Besides, most of the great questions that religions try to deal with have yet to be resolved by science. When and how did life and the universe begin? What happens when we die? What are we doing here anyway? Unless I slept through the lecture in high school biology that explained all this stuff, we don't really know shit...

We may not have all the right answers yet, but we are getting closer. The religious ideas have long since been replaced as the accepted scientific view with the more fitting scientific theories. If their was no more religion and people grew up without religion they would be comfortable and familiar with their view too, even if they didn't understand it. My biggest problem with religion is that I feel it holds societies back, slowing their advancement.

My biggest problem with religion is that I feel it holds societies back, slowing their advancement.


That doesn't really make much sense. If people would have just accepted explanations given by religions just like people that lived before us did, we wouldn't have had to waste billions of dollars in the name of science, to come up with an ever crazier theory. I fail to see how it has held us back :rolleyes:

We may not have all the right answers yet, but we are getting closer. The religious ideas have long since been replaced as the accepted scientific view with the more fitting scientific theories. If their was no more religion and people grew up without religion they would be comfortable and familiar with their view too, even if they didn't understand it. My biggest problem with religion is that I feel it holds societies back, slowing their advancement.

There may be a few pretty good scientific theories that get thrown around about this stuff, but science will never completely explain away religion to the point where nobody believes it in anymore. There will always be people whose faith is stronger than anything any scientist could ever tell them no matter how good their rationale.

Slowing advancement? Maybe if religious principles weren't holding back development in things like stem cell research we'd have a few more diseases cured, and there might even be a little bit less bloodshed due to conflicts of belief. All that would be great don't get me wrong. But would a society without religion really be better for most of the people who have to live in it? I think most major religions are completely bogus, so I don't really subscribe to any of them. But I also think there is a certain spiritual side to our own lives, living amongst each other and the world around us that would be a terrible thing to lose touch with. I think that if we were to ignore that, anything gained would be completely overshadowed by the loss.

Gentlemen and ladies, may I strongly suggest that your discourse be kept calm and reasonable, as it has been so far.

I applaud you all for discourse on this topic in a rational and mature manner :smooch:. I merely post this in that a very similar thread to this very topic got locked a while ago, as the posters became, let's just say "aggressive".

Thanks

Tam

With the above said, I respect the theorist belief, but I do not hold to it. I believe in natural evolutionary development, based on science and fossil evidence.

Good thread so far. I do generally agree with the posts made so far, although the title of this thread may be a bit too inflammitory.

Religion has traditionally held back scientific advances because most religions we know today traditionally depend on an authoritarian control of the faithful. This authority supposedly flows from the belief in a diety.
As science disporves the traditional mythology of a religion, it challanges the supposed existence of a deity and therefore directly challanges the authority of the religion itself. Gallileo suffered for this purpose as did millions of others over the years.
To summarise, science traditionally has made it difficult for religions to control the masses.

While there are millions of peaceful religious people in the world, religion is a useful tool for despotic individuals or regimes to perform evil deeds, either through individual acts (ie. traditional islamic justice allowing adulterers to be stoned to death), or mass terrorist acts.

Many religions do adapt themselves to the modern world, but sadly, their written texts do not. The Bible and the Koran are ancient obsolete works. They are intended for relatively primitive societies where there was very little in the way of education and sensible rule of law. They were useful guides for the uneducated perople to live a productive life in chaotic societies.

However, these days, or course, democracies, education and the reasonable rule of law have made much of their teaching obsolete.
So these books are suject to interpretation to bring meaning to our modern world.
The problem is some of the faithful are using and interpreting these writings to justify their fundamentally immoral actions.

I am thankful that the fastest-growing belief system in the world today is athiesm. Freedom from religion is a valuable concept.

does anyone else find the title "damn religion" rather ironic?

Seen too many unexplainable things in this world to doubt the existance of something greater.

Besides, it never hurt anyone to have faith.

I'm going to quote from the movie "The Notebook", "Science can only go so far, and then there's God." i.e. Medical misdiagnosis' take place all too often for me to even start to think that science has all the answers b/c it doesn't and never will. It is a great tool to find the beginnings and such of many things, but the world, universe and human race, etc, is far to massive for science to even get to a pin-point beginning.

Science does not have the answer to everything. There are so many things that are completely unexplainable that not even science will ever figure out. Have they figure out how or why ghosts exist? Nope.

You believe what you believe and i believe what i believe. That's the bottom line. Considering that the VAST majority of the world is religious, science will never top that. Somethings are better left a mystery anyway, it adds to the awe and wonder of the lives we live.

Somethings are better left a mystery anyway, it adds to the awe and wonder of the lives we live.
:thumbsup: Philosophy is much more interesting than science for me :D

I believe in God. There are countless reasons why, but one of them is, as kublah mentioned, I don't have a very good understanding of science - never have. So, I must "blindly" believe in something - human scientists, God, whatever. So for me, God it is. At the absolute least, Christianity is better at explaining things in a way I can understand.

In addition, as has been mentioned before, science has limitations. So far, as far as I know, it has not been able to explain why a particular girl may look gorgeous to me, and average to others, or why I fall in love, or how a woman in my church, diagnosed with terminal cancer, went back for tests the very next week, and no trace could be found that cancer had ever existed. Judging by the masses who argue against it, it can't even fully explain itself!

Also, the consistency of Christianity says something for me. Science changes constantly - the earth was flat, now it's round, the earth has been around for 5 million years, now it's 5+ billion years, etc. Christianity, on the other hand, though mindsets and practices have evolved with the times, has stayed consistent - the earth was proclaimed a "circle" back in Isaiah's day (Isaiah 40:22) (far B.C.), and the age of the earth has stayed constant in the thousands of years (though an exact date is still conjecture, as it's not clearly expressed in the Bible). The fact that it's still providing material for scientists to argue about is certainly significant, in my view.

As per your mention that the Bible was disproven by a supernova is conjectural - you're assuming that everything was "brand new" when it was created. I don't believe Adam was created as a baby, nor trees as sprouts, nor rocks with null carbon from radiation (or however they carbon-date stuff). It's perfectly fathomable for me that the image of the ancient supernova was already only a few thousand years away from Earth upon creation. Finally, the Bible also says that God is all-powerful - if that is the case, He clearly has the ability to make any particular bit of light travel 164,000x faster than normal, if He so chooses ;)

To sum up, I don't know that Christianity, science, or any other religion is true, and none can ever prove absolutely everything. It all comes down to a personal choice, and I'm thrilled we all have that choice to believe in whatever we desire. :)

BTW, drunken monkey, I too love the irony of the thread title :lol2:

Science does not have the answer to everything. There are so many things that are completely unexplainable that not even science will ever figure out. Have they figure out how or why ghosts exist? Nope.

youre right, science doesnt have the answer to everything, but neither does religion... if it had the answer to everything, then there would be no science... science is the study of something... if we knew everything about everything then we obviously wouldnt need to study about anything... on top of that, when science progresses, new mysteries are made and new ideas come about... which is why we will never know ALL the answers in the world

there have always been things that were completely unexplainable, which is why people used to create myths for answers to why the sun came up, why people fell in love, etc. but i think that NEVER having the answer is an overexageration...

i dont believe in ghosts, ive never seen one and ive never seen a video of one, yet there are so many people claiming to see them.. well, pretty much i think its bs to create hype and a good story... i need some sort of visual, or logical proof of something for me to believe it, which is why im not religious, which relys on faith...

You believe what you believe and i believe what i believe. That's the bottom line. Considering that the VAST majority of the world is religious, science will never top that. Somethings are better left a mystery anyway, it adds to the awe and wonder of the lives we live.

never is a ver absolute word, idk about that... also id like an example of what one of these awe inspiring mysteries youre talking about... if you are a religious person, the answer to how humans and the universe came about, what you are supposed to do on earth, what happens after you die and what actually happens after you die... not to disrespect any religions but what mystery does it leave?

science automatically assumes that there is a logical and scientifical reason for everything, leaving a mystery as to why, and how it occured... religion bases itself off of a greater power that is "all mighty"... if you believe in this, then there is no myster to anything

Also, the consistency of Christianity says something for me. Science changes constantly - the earth was flat, now it's round, the earth has been around for 5 million years, now it's 5+ billion years, etc. Christianity, on the other hand, though mindsets and practices have evolved with the times, has stayed consistent - the earth was proclaimed a "circle" back in Isaiah's day (Isaiah 40:22) (far B.C.), and the age of the earth has stayed constant in the thousands of years (though an exact date is still conjecture, as it's not clearly expressed in the Bible). The fact that it's still providing material for scientists to argue about is certainly significant, in my view.

now im not completely sure what the difference of cathlic and christian is, but from what i understand they are pretty much the same... cathlics being more strict or something like that... someone please explain

Gallileo was forced to tell that his theory on the sun being the center of the universe was in fact false by the Catholic Church or else be killed because it disagreed with the religion... and as we all know today, he was wrong and the earth is in fact the center :rolleyes:

also, the Pope had agreed to let the theory of evolution be acceptable in the cathlic religion, as long as god remained the creator

reasons why i am not christian
-i think that a lot of the stories in the bible are fake (just an opinion) like moses for one... if i ever see a sea split in half, i will instantly be converted trust me.. god in the bible, seems to do more radical "wonders" such as this, yet we never see them today... people say he still does miracles to people, helping them survive cancer, etc. but with all the people who are not christian, i would think if he could do anything, he could do something more amazing to help convert them... if that makes any sense
-its my understanding that moses could not go to the promise land because God told him to tap the rock once for water... he tapped it twice, and therefore he was banned.... it makes no sense to me that moses would do all this work, and then be banned for tapping a rock twice... and if it was true, i would have to ask myself, do i want to worship a god like this?
-i dont think that noah could fit every single living animal in the world on his boat... sorry
-idk about this one, but does the bible mention anything about dinosaurs?
-your not supposed to marry or have kids with your siblings, yet someone had to if god only made adam and eve... right?


and I'm thrilled we all have that choice to believe in whatever we desire.

depends on where u live

anyways, we are all entitled to our opinions, this is just mine... i myself am athiest (i think that was kind of obvious) and i think more people will be this was in the future... if u can prove anything i said to be wrong, go ahead, i wont turn down learning something new

I wasn't aware that science believed in ghosts?

No, im assuming it wasn't created. From your view, since it blew up 164,000 years ago that means the God created something that blew up 154,000 years before it was created? Thats way beyond just not being created new. Did God also create decaying creatures that died before they were created?

The way religion has people observe things that can be tested in various ways and shown to be actual events(the super nova could be seen with the naked eye, or in much greater detail with a telescope, but not only in the visable spectum but also radio and gamma rays are detected from it, also particles can be detected), with reasonable conclutions drawn from it(164,000yrs), but instead convice themselves and try to explain it away as some miracle of God (greatly speeding up light). Does it not seem strange to them that they need to make up those types of scenarios in the first place? Also I don't like how many believe unquestioningly in their beliefs when they can see other religious people also believe unquestioning in opposing beliefs. Wouldn't that make you stop and think what makes my religion so much more absolute than theirs and how can they believe in their religion as strongly as I believe in mine?

Why won't it just die! Its time is up, it was ok back in ancient times when people did not know any better and it seemed like the best way to explain nature, but now when there have been the advances in science that have progressed far enough understand how things came to be, it needs to show some courtesy and bow out. My case in a point, all one needs to do is look at the stars to know the bible is wrong. For example SN 1987A a supernova that occured 50 kiloparsecs which is 164,000 lightyears away. A star blew up 164,000 years ago, and yet over 50% (muslims, jews and christians) of the earth's population believe in a religion that thinks the universe is around 10,000 years old.

Think about primitive cultures that freaked out during a solar eclipse, thinking that a monster was eating the sun. Of course their reckoning of time is not going to be correct, they only see the lights in the sky, they have no concept of starlight taking thousands of years to reach Earth. For these people, perhaps 10,000 years was "forever" so they didn't go beyond that. They had no training in mathematics and most could not write at all. So it's not suprising that they would attribute many things to a greater being.

Wouldn't that make you stop and think what makes my religion so much more absolute than theirs and how can they believe in their religion as strongly as I believe in mine?

This is a good point. Also consider that within any major religion there are various sects that don't even see things the same way. Just look at the wide variety of Christian faiths that differ greatly in their beliefs.

I'll be the first to admit religion plays a major role in intolerance and even wars, but you have to admit that it also sometimes influences people for the better which can help humanity. I guess it's kind of a wash. I think the best approach is to be tolerant of other peoples beliefs. Don't push yours on me and I won't push mine on you. This is assuming that someone's beliefs aren't infringing on the rights of others.

This is a good point. Also consider that within any major religion there are various sects that don't even see things the same way. Just look at the wide variety of Christian faiths that differ greatly in their beliefs.

I'll be the first to admit religion plays a major role in intolerance and even wars, but you have to admit that it also sometimes influences people for the better which can help humanity. I guess it's kind of a wash. I think the best approach is to be tolerant of other peoples beliefs. Don't push yours on me and I won't push mine on you. This is assuming that someone's beliefs aren't infringing on the rights of others.
I think the different sects of Christian faith is only slightly different based on what each deems morally acceptable. I'm Catholic, but do not agree with every single aspect that my sect of christianity deems moral or immoral. My mom is far more strong in her beliefs of sex only with marriage whereas my dad and i don't see it as that big of a deal, but our beliefs on that are still quite different but i won't get into that as it's not important here.

If you look at Baptists there are Southern Baptists and Baptists. Southern sect being the one that very strongly frowns upon drinking at all.

To me religion is more about believing in a being far greater than me. It more importantly is about the power of forgiveness and redemption.

Why won't it just die! Its time is up, it was ok back in ancient times when people did not know any better and it seemed like the best way to explain nature, but now when there have been the advances in science that have progressed far enough understand how things came to be,

Do you even understand how small our brains are? We will NEVER be able to fathom the complexity of the universe. Science cannot explain hardly anything, and the theories that it gives birth too are even more far fetched than the ones that we already posses. Humans always try to remove the need for God in their lives, so they try to explain him away.

Do you even understand how small our brains are? We will NEVER be able to fathom the complexity of the universe. Science cannot explain hardly anything, and the theories that it gives birth too are even more far fetched than the ones that we already posses. Humans always try to remove the need for God in their lives, so they try to explain him away.

i have a problem with this quote... we are all entitled to our opinions, but if you are going to post something you need to at least back it up on some factual information...

what do you mean "science cannot explain hardly anything" it has explained much more imo than religion in a way that makes sense and a way we can use... God did not tell us how our body worked, how to cure diseases, how to make fire, what we are made of, etc., pretty much everything that we know came from science...

which theories are more far fetched than the ones we already have? id say that God just giving everyone different languages because they were trying to get to heaven is pretty far fetched to me... the idea of a man building a boat that could hold EVERY 2 sexes of each animal is pretty far fetched to me (and remember, christians/cathlics dont believe in evolution) so that means that every animal there is today, was on that... so, what theories are you actually talking about?

people try to remove god, because it is in our nature to ask questions... everything has to make sense to us... there is no proof of God, but there is proof of science... please give examples of what u mean when you post... your post is too general to even begin on

I am talking about known science. We know alot less than we think we do.

good thread guys, i think that it doesn't hurt to have faith, because when the going gets tough...faith is kind of therapuetic in a way i guess...

I am talking about known science. We know alot less than we think we do.

im not sure about that, it depends on who... im pretty sure that most scientists know that we know next to nothing about the entire universe... there are billions (or trillions? o forget) of galaxies, which consists of billions of stars... now think if each star had 9 orbiting planets like our solar system... think of it, all of the trillions of galaxies times all the billions of stars in each galaxy, times about 9 plantes... all these plantes, stars, galaxies, yet we cant even figure out everything about our own planet that we live on... im sure that scientists in general know how far we are from knowing "a lot" but, imo, it has brought us closer to knowing more than religion has, and i think that it will keep helping us in this way...

also i dont see how this post defends religion

Unless you have faith, I might as well be arguing with a brick wall. Faith isn't about throwing your hands in the air, but accepting the fact that not everything needs to be explained by science. Religion doesn't need my defense, we have to follow our hearts not our little minds.

good thread guys, i think that it doesn't hurt to have faith, because when the going gets tough...faith is kind of therapuetic in a way i guess...
Exactly, have you noticed that even the most godless people always ask God for help whenever things get to be too much?

Hmm, now why would anyone do that? :smile:

Unless you have faith, I might as well be arguing with a brick wall. Faith isn't about throwing your hands in the air, but accepting the fact that not everything needs to be explained by science. Religion doesn't need my defense, we have to follow our hearts not our little minds.


Exactly, have you noticed that even the most godless people always ask God for help whenever things get to be too much?

Hmm, now why would anyone do that? :smile:
Wow, a religious thread that has made it to page 2 without turning into a massive flame war. Excellent input from everyone here.

Religion, in the constructive sense, is useful in giving us a moral guidance.

I sincerely do not want a religious explaination of those issues that are best addressed by scientific means. Science gives us a more useful, dynamic and constructive approach to biology, evolution, geology, astronomy etc. It builds upon past evidence and refines its theories and principles as new evidence and discoveries are made.

However, people do not always behave in a rational or logical way. For this reason, religion is part of our culture and way of life. It is possible to be law - abiding, but still be immoral. Religion gives us a moral compass and a meassure of reassurance about the meaning in our lives.

Although I am an athiest, I do value the benefits that religion can provide for us. I choose not to participate directly, but my past religious upbringing still exerts an influence on my view of what is right and wrong in our world today. It is still my moral compass and my conscience even though I do not believe in god.

Unless you have faith, I might as well be arguing with a brick wall. Faith isn't about throwing your hands in the air, but accepting the fact that not everything needs to be explained by science. Religion doesn't need my defense, we have to follow our hearts not our little minds.

yes, it does rely on faith, which is why more and more people are turning to the more modern athiest beliefs that makes more sense to people... all im saying is that, after a while, probably not in my or your lifetime, religion WILL need a defense or else it will die down to where that religious people are the minority...

One thing that I've been hearing from my friends is that humans are just animals. And what makes us so different from them. I thought about it for a while and couldn't come up with the right words but then i heard it perfectly from my pastor. Morals are what separate us from the animals. I don't think that nature would have selected us to have morals and not other animals. And it has been studied and scientist have found out that it has nothing to do with the intelligence of a being.

I'm really a point in my life when i don't know what to believe. But i do believe that the Bible is still a relevant work. Is something that teaches you how to be a good person irrelevent now because we have learned a few things about the world.

I myself have witnessed a few miracles in my life. Like an uncle of mine had a massive heart attack that left his brain starved of oxygen for over 30 mins. He had about 6% normal brain activity and my family was going to pull the plug. The next day the doctor came up to my family and a said he couldn't believe that it was the same person. He had regain over 80% of his brain activity over night. He recovered fully. I have no other way of explaining it other than as a miracle.

yes, it does rely on faith, which is why more and more people are turning to the more modern athiest beliefs that makes more sense to people... all im saying is that, after a while, probably not in my or your lifetime, religion WILL need a defense or else it will die down to where that religious people are the minority...
Many empires have risen and fallen. Some that were likely as technologically advanced,but obviously not as destructive, as we are now. but religion has always stood the test of time.

I think that it is funny that today we think that we know more than those that have come before us. Sounds alot like teenagers. Remember, the earth was flat :lol2:

now im not completely sure what the difference of cathlic and christian is, but from what i understand they are pretty much the same... cathlics being more strict or something like that... someone please explain

Christianity is a trust in and acceptance of Jesus coming to Earth, dying on the cross and sacrifice for our sins, resurrecting 3 days later, and returning to Heaven. It's more a personal decision than a religion - there are several "religions" or denomonations which follow Christianity (Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, etc). I don't wish to slander Catholicism, but it has traditionally been a very bureaucratic organization with a lot of rules and requirements, rather than simple faith. The Catholic church has long been a very powerful and very rich organization, and not all who are Catholic are Christian (though many are). Baptists (who get the name from the custom of Baptism, which is the immersion and rise from water (symbolizing the death and resurrection of Jesus) as a public declaration of one's faith in Jesus - not necessary to be a Christian, but encouraged by the Baptist church) are much less of an organization than the Catholic church, and have variations all across the world. Some Baptist churches strongly believe in a very literal and strict belief in the Bible, while other Baptist churches are "lighter" in their approach - all agree upon salvation and baptism, however.



Gallileo was forced to tell that his theory on the sun being the center of the universe was in fact false by the Catholic Church or else be killed because it disagreed with the religion... and as we all know today, he was wrong and the earth is in fact the center :rolleyes:

Unfortunate, and an excellent display of the power of the Catholic church. I don't agree with stuff like that, and don't think Christianity should be a strict set of rules and customs (my opinion, of course).


reasons why i am not christian
-i think that a lot of the stories in the bible are fake (just an opinion) like moses for one... if i ever see a sea split in half, i will instantly be converted trust me.. god in the bible, seems to do more radical "wonders" such as this, yet we never see them today... people say he still does miracles to people, helping them survive cancer, etc. but with all the people who are not christian, i would think if he could do anything, he could do something more amazing to help convert them... if that makes any sense

Very understandable - I too have trouble grasping some of the stories, but that's why I have faith and not proof ;)


-its my understanding that moses could not go to the promise land because God told him to tap the rock once for water... he tapped it twice, and therefore he was banned.... it makes no sense to me that moses would do all this work, and then be banned for tapping a rock twice... and if it was true, i would have to ask myself, do i want to worship a god like this?

Slight misunderstanding ;) God told Moses to go to the rock and speak to it in the sight of the Israelites (who were mad at Moses for dragging them into this desert, where they were literally dying of thirst), and water would flow from it. However, Moses yelled at the "rebels" (as he called them) and angrily struck the rock. Water regardless came from it, but because he didn't follow the Lord's instructions, and made God look a fool, he was told he would not live to see the Promised Land. :) For reference, see Numbers 20.


-i dont think that noah could fit every single living animal in the world on his boat... sorry


The ark was about 140 meters long, 23 meters wide, and 13.5 meters tall - so about a NFL field-and-a-half in length, half a field in width, and 3-4 stories high...fair sized boat :) (Genesis 6)

Also, I don't believe that includes each and every breed of different species (in fact I believe most breeds have micro-evolved differences from each other, but all originate from the 2 on the ark). Just 2 of each species - I could see them fitting.


-idk about this one, but does the bible mention anything about dinosaurs?

Not specifically, no. However, there are two different beasts mentioned in the book of Job - one of them is the Leviathan (Job 41, also mentioned in other books of the Bible as well), which is described as having a natural armor (like shields), breathes flames, is unaffected by swords/spears/etc., "Iron he treats like straw and bronze like rotten wood"...sounds like a dragon to me. Also, Bohemoth (Job 40), who feeds on vegetation, has a tail which sways like a cedar, limbs like rods of iron, etc. Perhaps one of the big tree eating dinos?


-your not supposed to marry or have kids with your siblings, yet someone had to if god only made adam and eve... right?

Correct. It had to start somewhere. However, the law, commandments, did not come about until much later, for the Israelites, at which time "incest" was disallowed. (Leviticus 18)


anyways, we are all entitled to our opinions, this is just mine...

Correct again - our free will is one of our greatest attributes :)

From your view, since it blew up 164,000 years ago that means the God created something that blew up 154,000 years before it was created? Thats way beyond just not being created new. Did God also create decaying creatures that died before they were created?

Sure - why not?

but instead convice themselves and try to explain it away as some miracle of God (greatly speeding up light). Does it not seem strange to them that they need to make up those types of scenarios in the first place?

I don't believe He sped up light, I was just mentioning that anything is possible :) I too believe in science, but within the bounds of certain assumptions I have, such as the existance of God. Likewise, atheistic science must be bounded by the assumption that God does not exist (creating the need to figure out how everything came to be without a maker). To me, it seems strange that atheistic science needs to come up with scenarios explaining things without God. :)

Also I don't like how many believe unquestioningly in their beliefs when they can see other religious people also believe unquestioning in opposing beliefs. Wouldn't that make you stop and think what makes my religion so much more absolute than theirs and how can they believe in their religion as strongly as I believe in mine?

Please don't take offense to this, but I detect a hint of hypocrisy here - do you believe unquestioningly that science > religion? Have you stopped and thought what makes your "religion" (science) so much more absolute than mine? You likely have, and you've come to your conclusions, and stuck to them. Please don't assume I haven't questioned my beliefs - I wavered around through many different beliefs for 5 or 6 years before coming back to my God-based conclusion, and I've stuck to it.

To me religion is more about believing in a being far greater than me. It more importantly is about the power of forgiveness and redemption.

AMEN sir! I don't know whose moral interpretation is correct, who has things best figured out, but I know what I believe, and consider my faith and trust to far outweigh interpretation controversy.

Sorry about the long post :p

And not to offend any one...but one religion in particular stumps me in thier beliefs. Mormon, and moving to Utah, and living in a small mormon majority town i'm around it alot, and still very confused. And a couple of my friends are mormon, and in his senior project, his father asked him if he could change the one thing in the world what would it be. He responded, "I would make everyone see the truth," and then proceeded with a sphel about how every one else is wrong! This made me feel quite offended! i'm not sure if all are like this or just the ones here???????

If this offends or is inapropriate feel free to delete/edit.
It's not just the Mormons........to some degree almost every adherent to one particular religion feels all the others are wrong in some way. This is why they believe in one doctrine over the others.

Is this logical? No. Reaslistically, they cannot ALL be right. If they were, one would be able to use Catholic, Protestant, Jewish and Moslem cerimonies interchangably. However, we all know this is not the case. One religions permitted practices are blasphemous to another. Logically, they cannot all be right. This is a fundamental flaw in the practice of religion.

As an athiest, IMHO they all are wrong. But this is my opinion.
It is more constructive for me and others to have a live-and-let-live approach. I have my beliefs; they have theirs and there should be mutual respect.

However, there has been far too much disrespect of the beliefs of others throughout history, which, in the extreme leads to wars, persecution and death.

Intolerance of others is far too common and IMO quite rediculous, since it really is just fairy tales....its like arguing which is more correct, Lord of the Rings or Star Wars.

For people to fight over fiction makes me dispair in humanity, sometimes.

Yeah, but mormons have the only religion that really pisses me off :lol2:

BTW I live in "Mormon Country" in Wyoming

And not to offend any one...but one religion in particular stumps me in thier beliefs. Mormon, and moving to Utah, and living in a small mormon majority town i'm around it alot, and still very confused. And a couple of my friends are mormon, and in his senior project, his father asked him if he could change the one thing in the world what would it be. He responded, "I would make everyone see the truth," and then proceeded with a sphel about how every one else is wrong! This made me feel quite offended! i'm not sure if all are like this or just the ones here???????

If this offends or is inapropriate feel free to delete/edit.

You have a right to feel offended! Of course we all believe that whatever we believe in is truth, and that everyone else is wrong, and I'm sure we'd all like to see everyone convert to whatever we believe. However, we must all realize that will never be the case, and though we should perhaps encourage our beliefs, trying to force them on others is indeed offensive, and we have to deal with it. For example, I'm mildly offended every time someone says my belief is "wrong without a doubt", or when, say, a tour guide tells me the cave we're in is 2 billion years old. There's no avoiding other beliefs, so the least we can do is be tolerant of them, or even better, seriously consider what they have to say.

That said, I must say I found this "definite" statement quite offensive!
since it really is just fairy tales....its like arguing which is more correct, Lord of the Rings or Star Wars.

For people to fight over fiction makes me dispair in humanity, sometimes.

That said, I must say I found this "definite" statement quite offensive!
It did occur to me that some may find my analogy quite offensive, after I wrote it.
It was not intended to be so.

My point is that IMHO arguing about the 'details' of theology is quite silly. All major religions seek to show how people can live more meaningful and productive lives, with moral guidance and the ability to be selfless and benefit others. Therefore, ultimatly, these religions share the same goals.

It makes me angry to see some people contradicting these same goals with petty arguments about the finer details of religious dogma, as the Mormon post described.

Why won't it just die! Its time is up, it was ok back in ancient times when people did not know any better and it seemed like the best way to explain nature, but now when there have been the advances in science that have progressed far enough understand how things came to be, it needs to show some courtesy and bow out. My case in a point, all one needs to do is look at the stars to know the bible is wrong. For example SN 1987A a supernova that occured 50 kiloparsecs which is 164,000 lightyears away. A star blew up 164,000 years ago, and yet over 50% (muslims, jews and christians) of the earth's population believe in a religion that thinks the universe is around 10,000 years old.

Scorpy you said 'all one has to do....' =to see it is real too. You probably believe in the existence of Satan, yes? Where do you think this low life came from? It is in the bible and he thought Gods way was not good enough, so went his own way and it will be pure hell for him and his friends. Alot of things are foretold and have come to pass from the bible and other sources. Nostradamus apparently somehow had a gift to predict some future events that have come to pass, armagedon is also one of them. Bible is a collection of books covering as much as 2000 years of writtings prior to being into a book form. Think all those people and stories are all fantasy land? Do you believe that 2000 years after his death that all the churches and believers and just plain mistaken? IF the church were as some wished it were, it would resemble Hollywood or our current culture and be the church of what's happening now (fame). It suits many people to disbelieve and therefore not have to acknowledge God or religion or go to church or abide by someone's laws or rules. You were given free will and choices, lucky for you and us all that we are given a lifetime to get it right or you can do your own thing as brother Satan decided only difference is an eternal destination. You may change your thinking later in life, these things shall come to pass.

why do u assume he believes in satan?? im not religious either and i dont believe in satan.... :screwy: howd u get that idea??

"Bible is a collection of books covering as much as 2000 years of writtings prior to being into a book form. Think all those people and stories are all fantasy land? Do you believe that 2000 years after his death that all the churches and believers and just plain mistaken?"

yes... and yes

well the people are probably real, but i dont believe the stories are real...

also... if u were to find the truthfulness about something in how long it has been arround, then all christians would be considered wrong since hinduism (sp?) was the first religion which does not believe in God... actually, christianity was one of the last to be formed... therefore i dont believe what you said has any justification as to how God is real..

now... who knows... he might be real, me might not be... the only time we will be sure is when we die... and if i end up fertilization for grass which i believe i will, then ill be happy that i didnt go to church worshiping nothing but a theory...

why do u assume he believes in satan?? im not religious either and i dont believe in satan.... :screwy: howd u get that idea??

"Bible is a collection of books covering as much as 2000 years of writtings prior to being into a book form. Think all those people and stories are all fantasy land? Do you believe that 2000 years after his death that all the churches and believers and just plain mistaken?"

yes... and yes

well the people are probably real, but i dont believe the stories are real...

also... if u were to find the truthfulness about something in how long it has been arround, then all christians would be considered wrong since hinduism (sp?) was the first religion which does not believe in God... actually, christianity was one of the last to be formed... therefore i dont believe what you said has any justification as to how God is real..

now... who knows... he might be real, me might not be... the only time we will be sure is when we die... and if i end up fertilization for grass which i believe i will, then ill be happy that i didnt go to church worshiping nothing but a theory...

REPLY: Not looking to change your mind which no one (human) is capable of, but looking at people lives today many are living it following satan and his ways(sinful) instead of following Jesus teachings. Most people believe that evil and Satan exists and yet they cannot prove it, but they believe it and some worship such evil and live it everyday. All civilizations seemed to believe in God or Gods, so they were on the right track just not sure whom to worship. I am only a messenger and a humble servant and realize that I am not all that and a bag of chips,(someone is much greater than our sorry asses) best of journeys to us all. Anyone sending arrows please direct them to: House of Satan 666 Hades Bull-a-vard Red Flames, Hell 69666 (a little humor thrown in for more fun)

Jeremiah (not to late to repent)

Besides, it never hurt anyone to have faith.

It may not hurt anyone to have faith, but there have been a lot of wars based on faith or Holy Land. The Jews have been persecuted and killed throughout history because of Christianity. I think that religion has really come into question lately because of all of the extremist Muslim groups. They use Islam to justify terrorism....in that way, having faith is bad.

It may not hurt anyone to have faith, but there have been a lot of wars based on faith or Holy Land. The Jews have been persecuted and killed throughout history because of Christianity. I think that religion has really come into question lately because of all of the extremist Muslim groups. They use Islam to justify terrorism....in that way, having faith is bad.

Karmabob speaks again:

Alot of deaths in the name of religions that is tragic and shows human nature not divine nature. Christains have been presecuted and killed for their beliefs too. St. Peter whom was Jesus number one honered apostle spread the gospel to Rome and was killed there preaching the word of Jesus (Gods son), the church founded became the 'universal church they accepted everyone anytime, later it was called the Catholic church which means 'universal'. They have found St. Peters bones and they are buried beneath St. Peters Basillica underneath where the alter is located as was predicted. This is why the pope is in Rome or the Vatican area, St. Peter was the 1st pope and 'handed the keys of the kingdom' he was the 'rock' whom upon this church is built. Whomever follows in succession is in tune with the Holly Spirit and lead by God for making religious decisions and in these matters is considered infallibile. Pope John Paul II whom just died was the 3rd longest reining pope in history and did plenty of good to unite the world to the gospel. Maybe you noticed he went into the prison to meet the asassin who shot him and tried to kill him, in order to do what Jesus would do, forgive the man in person. This is an act of forgiveness that is basically biblical, I don't think that many of us could have done the same thing with true loving compassion during the process. He will become cannonzied and become a modern day saint because of the many great things he had done during his lifetime. This is the oldest of the Christain religions and kept the truest over almost 2000 years since founded. Whatever religion someone chooses to follow is better than none. It also preaches not to kill, love thy neighbor and turn the other cheek among other lessons like that as a road map for peaceful living. If we were to follow such lessons the world would be a peaceful place perhaps, but because we have free will the greed and evil are having there day at this time.

I will sign off on this thread as I know many are not ready to look at the gospel, but time and circumstances can change everything. You see the chaos starting in our economy, fuel prices, finances, terrorism, climate changes, moral melt down, disrepect, satanic worship, destruction of our family units, and this is the short list. Rome at one time was the greatest empire, noticed it did not last for similar reasons. The one thing that remains true in the face of it all is religion and faith as your possible salvation. (Humor) Oh, yeah I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. Had to say that to see if you were paying attention and not knotting off during my sermon on the automotive mount. To each your own but don't shut out the one who can save your future, knock and the door shall be opened.

Wow, 3 pages and it has remained a good thread. There is so much I could/want to say, but I'll refrain from making a never-ending thread. Also if anything I say unintentionally insults anybody, I apologize in advance.

Just some quick background, I grew up in a Christian family, pretty religious, went to church 3x a week at least, spent 3 years in a Bible school filled and taught by missionaries in Germany (pretty enclosed 500 person entirely Christian community where you went to school, church, lived, ate, drank, and played soccer with the same 500 people day in and day out) Had bible class, I've read hte Bible cover to cover a few times, and know it fairly well. In college I majored in Philosophy and consider myself pretty well-read in LOTS of varied philosophies, religions, mythologies, etc.

I myself do not believe in God or any other higher power, however I dislike the sterotypical atheist as well. I don't hold science on a pedastal or necessarily even believe in macro-evolution (I honestly think it is just as difficult to believe).

I just wanted to comment on the original posters first 2 posts.

The religious ideas have long since been replaced as the accepted scientific view with the more fitting scientific theories.

As I said, I don't necessarily believe in Macro evolution, so I would have to politely disagree with this. I don't think all religious ideas have been replaced, and the ones that 'have' aren't necessarily 'accepted'...obviously alot of people disagree with them, and not all of them are religious believers.

If their was no more religion and people grew up without religion they would be comfortable and familiar with their view too, even if they didn't understand it.

Okay, so glad you said this, because here is where I think I differ 100% with the traditional/sterotypical atheist. There have been times I have hated Christianity/religion. The 'institution', not necessarily the ideas, or the entire population. For all the 'bad' it has done in history, for 'bad' things in my life, etc. But at the same time, you cannot argue it hasn't done good things in the world/history as well. And I will definantly argue it has had positive effects in my life as well.

Without the upbringing I had, I would not be the same person I am today. I wouldn't have the knowledge of Christianity, which allows me to intelligently decide why I don't follow it.
I wouldn't have some of the same values. I could go on, but my point is this. If I have kids, I would want them to at least be exposed to Christianity (probably by my mother) so they can decide for themselves. I think the Bible and other religious works should be read, even by the non-believer for the same reasons a Christian should read Nietzsche...because thought (human or 'divine') has gone into them, and that means they are worth considering. So I don't think religion should be wiped away or "bow" out.

And lastly, you mentioned people being "more comfortable with their view" if there were no more religion. I'll be the first to say, I don't believe in a God, but I am in NO WAY comfortable with anything. Faith provides answers, obvious modern science doesn't have ALL the answers right now. That means without faith, I don't know what the point of my life is, I don't know what happens when I die, I don't know JACKSH!T!!!! And THAT is a scary thought! I'm an existentialist, and that SCARES me at times.

I live my life day to day, spend money, make money, grow older, may have a family and die 80 from a heart attack, may die at 28 putting a crotch rocket into a brick wall at 130. I don't know, and yet I have to continue on. You may have something you firmly believe in other than a religion....but I still don't think you have all the answers.

So more or less, I feel like I'm lost in a vast desert. I have choice as to which direction I go. One direction may be the right one, maybe there is no right one...I don't know. I can be pretty sure that I don't want to go one way, and that I think the opposite way looks more promising. But sitting down and waiting to die and not going anyway is ludacris.

So yeah, sorry if I digressed and went to off on my own thoughts, but...that's how I feel. Hope I didn't offend anybody :biggrin:

Ahhh the notorious religious debate! I've argued this one fiercely on AF many a times before. It's not worth a headache.
All you have to know is that you have yours, and they have theirs. Let it be!
Everyone believes in something. All you need though is to believe in yours and know that you do. All that matters is you!

Ahhh the notorious religious debate! I've argued this one fiercely on AF many a times before. It's not worth a headache.
All you have to know is that you have yours, and they have theirs. Let it be!
Everyone believes in something. All you need though is to believe in yours and know that you do. All that matters is you!


Karmabob says:
Thanks for your discussions and thoughts and glad nobody seems to be to bruised, it has been kept pretty civilized on this topic. In my case I probably won't be around in the near future, got diagnosed with prostate cancer and alot of it. Had treatments and controlling it thus far but it is not cured. Been going to church with my wife for years and decided I needed to join and be more prepared for 'you know not when, it can come like a thief in the night'. Part of the corpal acts of parishoneers it to spread the gospel (good news-message), so I attempted to do just that and knowingly would accept a few arrows sent my way. If you don't endorse any religion so be it, but do not damn religion, for as it says "judge not as yee shall be judged" you could be damning yourself.

Wish you all a good journey.

Bob

My father was diagnosed with prostate cancer about 4 or 5 years ago. He had it removed and so far so good. He is also a strong believer like yourself so maybe God had a hand in his recovery. Robert, (karmabob) we wish you the best. Keep us posted.

My father was diagnosed with prostate cancer about 4 or 5 years ago. He had it removed and so far so good. He is also a strong believer like yourself so maybe God had a hand in his recovery. Robert, (karmabob) we wish you the best. Keep us posted.

Bob replies:
Thanks for the reply and best to your dad, he will have to monitor his PSA level for a few more years, some say at 10 years if you are still clear and non-rising psa that you are in the cured group. Yourself you should be checked by the time you are 40 yrs. old, to be on the safest side of the equation, same for your brothers if you have any.

K-Bob

[QUOTE=AlmostStock]This is a good point. Also consider that within any major religion there are various sects that don't even see things the same way. Just look at the wide variety of Christian faiths that differ greatly in their beliefs.

I'll be the first to admit religion plays a major role in intolerance and even wars, but you have to admit that it also sometimes influences people for the better which can help humanity. I guess it's kind of a wash. I think the best approach is to be tolerant of other peoples beliefs. Don't push yours on me and I won't push mine on you. This is assuming that someone's beliefs aren't infringing on the rights of others.

I have to agree with AlmostStock on this. My father is a minister and I am attending Lincoln Christian College, a fairly consrevative college even by Christan standards. I have grown up in a church setting my entire life and made my own decision on what I believe. There was I time where I was not sure about God and creation and everything. For what its worth, I'm a very scientific person and like to study science in my spare time. I do believe in God, the Bible, and in Jesus Christ. I do have minor differences from my parents, but they are not major theological issues. As for what AlmostStock said, I have come to the conclusion that you can't push your beliefs upon someone else if you want to have any hope of converting them. As with most Christians, I would love everyone to believe in my religion because I believe it is right. I can't say with absolute certainty it is, nor can someone with other beliefs, with God/gods or without, say with certainty that theirs are. I will discuss my beliefs with others, but I will not tell them that they are going to hell if they don't agree with me. Firstly because I don't have the authority to make that statement, and secondly because its not exactly a great pitch for conversion. Like AlmostStock said, tolerance is the best policy.

wow what kind off person is willing to make a big deal over religon avery one has ther opinion like the arabs and jews every one has theree own idea so get over it

karmabob... i came back to this thread... and i just so realized that youre name doesnt make much sense imo

youre christian... yet, your name is karma... which is a buddist belief, and then bob obviously because of your name... while it is completely clear that you are a christian who truely believes in your religion

earlier u posted how the pope visited the man who tried to assassinate him.. which is what basically the christian faith is based on... forgiving.. supposedly, you can kill someone, yet still be forgiven and accepted into heaven.. yet karma, is the opposite... what comes arround goes arround, which focuses on the initial intent.. if you do something out of a good heart, but a negative effect comes from it, you will still have good things happen to you because you didnt intend for it to be bad... if you were to, well, try to assasinate the pope, that would be out of the intent to kill someone, and you would be later punished from bad karma... i find it hard to see how you could believe in both

Maybe because he doesnt think THAT deply into it, hell I just thought karma was karma, not a buddhist belief.

karmabob... i came back to this thread... and i just so realized that youre name doesnt make much sense imo

youre christian... yet, your name is karma... which is a buddist belief, and then bob obviously because of your name... while it is completely clear that you are a christian who truely believes in your religion

earlier u posted how the pope visited the man who tried to assassinate him.. which is what basically the christian faith is based on... forgiving.. supposedly, you can kill someone, yet still be forgiven and accepted into heaven.. yet karma, is the opposite... what comes arround goes arround, which focuses on the initial intent.. if you do something out of a good heart, but a negative effect comes from it, you will still have good things happen to you because you didnt intend for it to be bad... if you were to, well, try to assasinate the pope, that would be out of the intent to kill someone, and you would be later punished from bad karma... i find it hard to see how you could believe in both

Bob replies: It is just a stupid name, I like cars and work on them too and thus carmabob=karmabob. Well this sure started a debate and people are discussing such which is not all bad in itself. In the above you could be forgiven, does not come automatically either according to the bible and ways of Christ. Yes, I do not believe in both as to the word karma as you described it.

ADIOS

its ok bob i think its a cool name kinda makes scence if u think about it