ZC Generations

K guys i searched the forums and couldn't find the answer to my question so i figured i'd just throw it out there and see if anyone knows the answer. I've read a few places that there are multiple generations of ZC's i know that there is a SOHC and a DOHC. The DOHC is my perticular area of interest. I've also read that the DOHC has 2 generations only the first of which fit into our cars without modifications. My question to you guys is - What changes did they make between the first and second generations that make them different and or diffiicult to install? what specifically is different with the mounts etc...? any info will be appreciated.

Kris

Well...from lxndr i have found out what u have....there are 4 zc motor....i am pretty sure that the difference is that ones american and one is jdm.....but honestly i am not possitive.good luck,what do you want a zc for....(i heard trhat a zc is just a high compression d16)

Ok well the reason that i'm asking is that about a year and a half ago i bought an 85 REX with a Blown motor, I had just previously been hooked up with an engine importer in LA who carried a lot of ZC stuff. So i got a DOHC ZC Blacktop shipped to me for $500 and an ecu and i've been accumulating parts since then since it's a project car and i have enough other cars to keep my busy oni havn't been in a big hurry. Now the donor car was carbed but screw that i'm into fuel injection in a big way so i figured getting an FI motor wouldn't be that big of a deal. Anyway i'm getting ready to drop it in and i'm not really seeing any reason that it won't fit but i havn't phisically put it in yet. The thing that got me worried about the entire thing is that i was having trouble getting the right Transmission/ flywheel combination and it got me thinking about other things. when i searched i found a bunch of people that say it won't fit without major mods but no reasons why. I have the ability to fabricate just about anything that you could think of (TIG, MIG, Machining, CNC Machining) and i'm only going to have the capability for about another 6 months (until i graduate from Western) so i'm trying to get this wrapped up before then if i have to fab anything big now's the time. 130 hp + 1900 lb car = fun

Can you post a pic of your ZC? This will help us identify which motor you have.

Also, here's a link to a website dedicated entirely to ZC motors:
http://www.thezcresource.com/forums/

If your ZC that has a valve cover with 4 bolts holding it down in the center (like a D16A1), you've got the right one. If it has the valve cover bolts around the perimeter of the valve cover, you're going to have issues when you try to swap it since this is the '88-'91 ZC motor.

i am pretty sure that the difference is that ones american and one is jdm.....but honestly i am not possitive.good luck,what do you want a zc for....(i heard trhat a zc is just a high compression d16)

All ZC motors are JDM or EDM, there were no USDM ZC motors. The D16A1 motor is the only thing that comes close to a ZC in the U.S. Pretty much the only mechanical difference between the D16A1 and DOHC ZC motors are the cams and intake manifold.

I knew that...(pft,brainiac)

K here are some pics that i just took

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/236019ZCShit_001.jpg

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/236019ZCShit_002.jpg

I think this is how to post

Well... The only other thing I can think of (other than the motor being the right one) is that you will have to find a complete engine wiring harness from either an Si or a 86-89 Teg. The main reason being, the 85 Rex was carbed, and it will be Muy Dificulte to try to wire up FI with it. Other than that, you should be okay. Lxndr is the man when it comes to the Rex's, so I'll let him fill in anything else I missed.

well the pic's that i took didn't illustrate it but the motor came with the complete harness cut after the main plug, so i have the main plug and everything else so i really just need to make the jumpers go from the main plug to the ECU plugs that i got.

then your all set

Hate to tell you this...
You've got the wrong ZC for an '84-'87 Civic/CRX.

The motor you've got is for an '88-'91 Civic/CRX. The difference is in the motor mounts and the transmission. These will be your biggest issues with trying to get this motor in your car. You will end up welding up your own motor mounts, and I have no clue as to what you'd do about the tranny.

I'd sell it and buy the correct motor. But if you're set on using this motor, here's an option that will work:

Get an '86-'89 D16A1 bare block with absolutely nothing on it but the main caps. If you can get one with extremely low miles that would be best, or go to www.redpepperracing.com an find out if anyone has an '86-'89 ZC block for sale.

Once you have a low mileage block, hone it out and bolt EVERYTHING from your ZC into this block! If you get a high mileage block, bore it out .5mm, get '88-'89 D16A1 .5mm oversived pistons, reuse your ZC rods, then bolt EVERYTHING from your ZC onto this block! You will be using your low mileage ZC crank because it has a 24mm snout which you'll need in order to use the 17 tooth timing belt crankshaft pulley. You have to use the 17T ZC crank TB pulley because the 2G ZC motor uses a 34 tooth cam cear. You will also be using your ZC rods and reusing your bearings, so don't mix anything up!

From here you have a ZC motor that WILL bolt directly into your car and the wiring will be the same as if you were swapping an '88-'89 D16A1 with an electronic advance distributor, VSS and ELD.

Use the '88-'89 Integra tranny, knuckles, cv shafts, etc with this configuration. The '86-'87 tranny will also work, but the '88-'89 tranny is geared better.


Here's another option that MIGHT work (please do your own research):

Use your existing motor and construct your own motor mounts.

If I recall correctly an '88-'91 SI tranny will bolt up to this motor. I'm not an expert on '88-'91 ZC motors so I might be wrong, but I do know that you'll be making your own transmission mounts regardless.

Use the appropriate CV shafts for the tranny you end up using, but you will also have to swap the outside spline cup with one that matches your hubs.


Hope this helps.

Good luck!

k well i mocked it up today and as you probably know there are 5 bell housing bolts total. 4 around the top and front of the motor in which the holes in the tranny go through to threaded holes in the block. The fifth hole is the opposite being that the transmission is threaded instead of the block. subsequently that is the hole that doesn't line up. If i hog out the hole on the little ear on the back of the block with a die grinder and turn it into a little slot it looks like it'll work. i'll post pics later... PS i'm using an 87 integra Tranny.

That's great if you can just enlarge one hole to make it work! Please post pics, I would like to see how this works out!

K well here are some pics that i took tonight as i was working... The hole ended up being a little bit bigger then i would have liked but seeing as its going to get pinched in between the motor mount i think that it'll be fine... let me know what you guys think (the black in the first pic illustrates the material that i'm goin to remove

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/236019ZCShit_012.jpg

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019ZCShit_013-med.jpg

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019ZCShit_015-med.jpg

k well i did some research yesterday down at the local NAPA and i do enough business with them that they all know me and didn't feel put out of place when i asked to compare clutch kits and it turns out that i'll be using my original CRX flywheel, i need a CRX pressure plate but the clutch disk has to be out of an 88 Civic wagon 7-1/2 inches 21 splines and that's the only disk that fits that description anyway. After i'd looked into that i probably cant really spare the money for that until like next week so i decided to paint my engine bay. i got some driveway degreaser and a brush and went to town i also pulled off all the the wiring harnesses and stuff so that i could get it really clean and it is i'll post pics tonight. Tomorrow when i get done with school i'll be painting it with some spray on undercoatin that i picked up and is supposed to be really durabe any way that's what i'v been up to.

You'll run into a problem with the CRX flywheel. The hole in the center for the guide bushing is larger than the input shaft on the Integra transmission. You'll either need to have a bushing made, or use an '86-'89 Integra flywheel. If you don't, the input shaft won't be supported and eventually you'll blow the tranny. If you use the Teg flywheel, you can also use the Teg clutch, but it's smaller. I've got a spare Teg flywheel that you can have if you decide to go that route.

Good to know about the wagon clutch!

well what i'm noticing about the hole in the flywheel is that if anything the hole is a little bit too small. I'm gonna mic it later and compare to the number i get from the integra i think what you are thinking about is the later gen flywheel. It is designed for a pilot bearing but the imput shaft on the tranny is too big for the pilot bearing so i was originally going to go that route and use an Si clutch but what i discovered was that the Si pressure plate hits the bell housing in an inconvienient way. Someone else on the internet discovered that too i don't remember who it was though. So i'm not sure maybe i have a different flywheel than i thought it did. i'll let you know

Yep, I'm thinking of the 2G CRX flywheel, I didn't know the 2G ZC flywheel was different. I'm still learning some of this stuff too, that's why I'm interested in how your swap turns out.

k if anyone is intrested i found the other guy that did it i read this article on the internet...
http://www.muller.net/sonny/crx/swap3/index.html

Then i made a bushing and mocked everything up and discovered it hitting then i read the next installment

http://www.muller.net/sonny/crx/swap4/index.html

and realized that i wasted some time.

hey lxndr i've got a favor to ask you... so i was looking on NAPA's website and i noticed that the part number for the integra flywheel and the CRX flywheel are different so i was woundering what dimension is different i was hoping that you could measure the one that you have and let me know about the step height and hole dia and stuff like that because i can get one from napa for the same price that it would cost me to machine mine so i'll probably just go that way but i want to make sure i get the right one...

I'll see what I can do. They'll just be rough dimensions since I broke my calipers (Rrrggghh!).

Just to give you some comparison, I recently had my flywheel resurfaced and lightened for $90.

Sonny's site is a great source for information! I was even able to see his car in person! I still contact the new owner from time to time for information. EVERYTHING that was done to this car was documented, so I also use Sonny's site as a guideline. BTW, his CRX is a little more rough than the pictures show.

Just to give you some comparison, I recently had my flywheel resurfaced and lightened for $90.



i know a guy who runs a machine shop and he does them for me for 35 after hours... but i can get a brand new one from NAPA for 40 so as far as lightening it goes i'm think that i'll save that for when i get a better clutch then stock. as for now i'm just trying to get it on the road, then flywheel and clutch, then turbo.

so anyway if anyone is intrested i cleaned and painted my engine bay the last few days so i'll post some pics of during and after below
I used a spray on truck liner with some texture and i think it came out pretty well. I still have some touching up to do though

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/236019DSC00620.jpg

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019DSC00623-med.jpg

after

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019DSC00628-med.jpg

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019DSC00629.jpg

so anyway i think that it turned out pretty well let me know what you think

You missed a spot.







Just kidding!

Keep the pictures coming, we all love pics!

Looks good!

looks good

thanks for the support i should be able to get the flywheel and pressure plate on Friday so i should at least get the motor in and hanging this weekend.

just thought i'd throw this out to i'm looking for some integra stuff that i can swap in eg. knuckels, front and rear suspension and brakes, etc. everytime i go to the pull a part there arn't any there so if anyone has any ideas about where to score some of these parts let me know.

Are you talking about the Pull-A-Part in Lynnwood? I'm there about 2-3 times a month, I can let you know when they've got a Teg.

Also I just received another extra Teg flywheel, that has been resurfaced. Let me know if you need it. I bought a used ACT clutch from someone on RPR (only 300 miles on it), and he sent me the flywheel too. Since I've got a lightened flywheel, I don't need it.

I'm such a DOLT! I forgot to get you the measurements for the flywheel!

yea i'm talking about that one i think it's either Lynnwood or Everett it's right across the street from the bent bike motorcycle place. anyway yea i try to go like once a month or so but if you could let me know that would be great.

OK,

Here are some rough dimensions for the flywheel. I stomped on my calipers, so I took these with an acurate tape measure.

Overall diameter (including ring gear):
11 1/8"

Clutch surface diameter:
8 3/16"

Guide bushing hole:
An ass hair over 3/4"

Hope you can still use this info!

but if you could let me know that would be great.

Can do.


Yeah, it's the PAP across from Bent Bike.

absoulty thanks, what is the overall thickness?

Thickness is 15/16"
Relief for crankshaft flange: 3/16"

One thing I forgot to mention is that you'll also need an ECU from an 88/89 Teg in order to run this motor, you can also use the PM6 from an 88-91 Civic/CRX but you should have it chipped in order to get maximum potential from your motor. I also have an extra 88/89 Teg ECU if you can't find one. You'll NEVER find an ECU at PAP (trust me)!

well i think that i'm gonna have to take you up on the extra flywheel that you got so how much do you want for it? as far as the ECU goes i got a PM7 ecu from the importer when i got my motor which is the one that came with the motor and is supposed to be better then the Teg one. I think the redline is 7200 with the ecu i have but i'm not sure about where the rev limiter cuts out.

PM sent

K just a quick update on the swap... i hit another roadblock. At the pullapart last friday i found a near vergin 88 or 89 integra and raped it. I got all 4 hubs and discs and calipers so pretty much the brake swap minus the master... I also got the intermediate shaft which is where i run into the problem. The engine and tranny are together and fine now thanks to the flywheel that lxndr came through with, and everything is pretty much ready to try to set in there. I went insert the intermediate shaft and it slid into the tranny like butter... then i rotated the carier around so that i could bolt it up and only 1 of the 3 bolt holes line up... after i steped back and looked at it it was obviously a different bolt pattern... so my next move is to get a ZC intermediate shaft and use the carier out of it with the integra shaft if i can figure out a way to make it work but i think i can... I also realized that i forgot to get the front tranny mount while i was there and it's probably gone by now so i'll have to get one somewhere else now. Another hurdle that i'm going to run into is the starter but i'll address that later with the pics... It's gonna happen now i'm down to the final few hurdles.

If all else fails, you could probably weld up an adapter plate for the intermediate shaft.

I'm pretty sure the tranny mount would still be there. Usually people leave those in the car when they pull the motor.

well here are some pics of what i've got...


http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019ZCShit_016.jpg
k this is the whole assemble as it sits right now...

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019ZCShit_018.jpg
as you can see with the starter the lower holes don't quite line up meaning i'll eather make a threaded insert at school to press into the bell housing or i'll use a helicoil or something so that it just threads in to the bell housing rather then all the way into the block...

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019ZCShit_021.jpg
not even close this is where i'm going to try to get the ZC intermediate shaft and pull the bering retainer off of it... buy the way this is just to illustrate the differentces the intermediate shaft isn't all the way in if it was the lower left hole would line up...

well hopefully today i'm going to drop the bitch in the car maybe it'll work maybe not if it does i'll have pics tomorrow. if not it may be a few days.

Hmmm,

It looks like you could probably relocate the top hole in the intermediate shaft and weld on some metal to relocate the hole on the right. That is, if the ZC shaft doesnt work. The only thing you might be concerned with is the spline count in the ZC shaft vs. the Teg shaft, they might be the same but I'm not sure.

k here are the pics from today...

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019ZCShit_024-med.jpg

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019ZCShit_025-med.jpg

and here you can see my temporary tranny mount
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019ZCShit_026-med.jpg

I'm getting excited

aight just a quick update. i got the rest of the parts that i needed yesterday so i'll probably be finishing my break swap today and maybe starting to pull apart my interior to decide where i want to mount my ecu.

Unfortunately you are attempting the more difficult route into a 1G. Had I been on the board earlier I could have given you some tips as well. I am shoehorning a D16A1 into a Mini so I know some pitfalls of this kind of a swap. As well I now own Sonny's old CRX. Almost have it ready for inspection to get a licence.

This will be an interesting conversion for you. Listen to lxndr as he knows his stuff. I can only give you a hint on the timing side motor mount. Your engine has the ideal mount location for a normal swap and would obviously fit into a 2G CRX. Sadly the 1G has the mount location place much further forward. I can't tell from the pictures whether you have this resolved or not. It seems it's sitting straight!

In any case I see two holes on the front of the block. There are more than likely three but one is hidden by the manifold. If you use the CRX front timing side mount it should bolt up to these 3 holes. I warn you, I only have good knowledge of the D16A1 which is very close to the JDM ZC of the first variety. You have the spicier 88-91 Civic ZC. If this engine is as close as I think it is you will be able to use this mount with a bit of finessing. The timing cover will interfere slightly. Some people cut the cover and others grind out the mount. I suggest the second alternative. If you cut the cover try and remold or shape with some similar material.

Reason: If moisture or oil gets into the timing cover the belt will deteriorate over time. Dust is not an issue as it is dry. Some people also leave the cam gears exposed and run the risk of other debris getting in there and causing damage.

As far as the intermediate shaft goes I wish you luck. I have seen someone do something similar where the two bottom bolts line up and he was going to reweld the top part of the bracket. He also had to tap/thread the holes in the block. I'd give you a link but just cannot remember where I read it. Too many boards!! Are the splines working out OK? Also be careful on the length of the axles you are using. Could be an issue there as well.

As it's late that's all for now. If I can add further I will. I also have a solution to the Teg brake swap with fitting the MC. See my post here (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=197243&page=2) JS

Listen to lxndr as he knows his stuff.

Thanks,

But I've learned alot from you too. Good to see you on the AF!


Kris,

Sorry to hijack your thread. Any updates on the ZC swap?

well i havn't really had time lately to work on my car cause one of the guys i work with is on vacation so i've been working constantly. Today is my first day off in quite a while and i'm pretty sick so i might work on it on thursday. Normally i would just work on it after i work but i work on cars all day at work and lately i just havn't had it in me at the end of the day i think it's cause i have been trying to get sick but hopefully i'll kick this today or tomorrow and be back out in the shop.

also i've been kicking around ideas for my radiator. I have the full size one that was in the car still but it doesn't look like i'll have much clearance with the exhause manifold so i was thinking about trying to mount one of those half size radiators out of the newer civics or mabey just coming up with something custom. What have you guys done for that type of thing?

I personally haven't run into this problem, but some people who run turbos and need the extra clearance use half size Del Sol radiators. You could also use the Teg radiator and mount it on the other side of the core support. The Teg radiator has a longer filler neck so it will reach the inside of the engine compartment, you will need to do some modification to make it fit, but you'd have to do modifications to get any other radiator to fit too.

also i've been kicking around ideas for my radiator. I have the full size one that was in the car still but it doesn't look like i'll have much clearance with the exhause manifold so i was thinking about trying to mount one of those half size radiators out of the newer civics or mabey just coming up with something custom. What have you guys done for that type of thing?

My radiator is in the normal positionwith about 2" of clearance to the rad. Fan unit is also normal. There is enough room for the stabilizor bar behind the rad as well.

The only problem is hoses. You may have to improvise with lengths and sizes. Looking back at your motor in situ it seems there is sufficient space between the header cover and the bottom sill the rad sits on.

So what did you do about the timing side mount? JS

for the timing mount i cut a notch in one side of the pressed steel so that it'll clear the cover without rubbing. Depending on how i feel tomorrow i might be able to do some more out in the shop if i have it in me i'll take some pictures too.

I'll be damned if it isn't starting to look like a car...

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019ZCShit_031.jpg

In this pic you can kind of see how i cut the mount so that it wouldn't rub

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019ZCShit_033-med.jpg

There ended up being more room then i though so that isn't an issue.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/503/236019ZCShit_039-med.jpg

Well today i got the brakes done and tomorrow i'll probably start cleaning out the inside to figure out where i want to mount my ecu... until next time

Kris

Kris
I found the article about the halfsahft problem. Have a read through and hopefully it will give some insight into your problem unless you have already resolved it. Pictures are halfway down the page. JS
Half shaft article (http://www.redpepperracing.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16286&st=45)

ok well i started to tear apart the inside to decide where to mount the ecu and i'm thinkin under the passenger seat is looking pretty good. A big wiring harness goes through the firewall on the passenger side about the height of the tunnel that runs down the car and appears to go towards the drivers side but i've been unable to find a decent wiring diagram for carbed models so i might have to chase some wires... if anyone has a wiring diagram or a site to get one let me know and it will be greatly appreciated.

well the other day i bought a label maker and 5 different colors of wire and came home and with the help of one of my friends pulled my interior apart and pulled the dash out and started labeling wires. Then i went back to PAP and found a short harness from a teg that goes from the main plug to the ecu so i pulled that out. Now i have all of the stuff labed and have pinout diagrams so i'm getting ready to hook up some more stuff. I have the injectors wired in already. The only problem is that the integra harness was missing some wires that i might need so i might have to de pin some wires and move them. Another problem that i'm running into is that my crx didn't have a decent main relay so i'm thinking about just running them to some toggle switches temporarily so i can see if it'll fire. I got the fuel figured out. I got some steel line from NAPA and some fittings and stuff so i can make that work. Anyway everything is goin pretty good so far. Just thought i'd update everyone.

Keep it up! Oh... Did you grab the Integra's complete harness for the engine compartment? I plan on doing that when I swap in my B18. If I can just use that it would help... Anyways. [/hijack]

Seriously, though. Good to see someone else putting hard work into a poor 1st gen! Defenitely keep us updated!

i have done this exact swap maybe about four years ago, so my memory on some of the details are a bit sketchy. the motor you are using is technically not the right one, but it will work and will be stronger than the d16a from the integra, it is made for a civic but it is the same one i used. you are on the right path, i think the starter you need is from integra but only one bolt lines up. As for the ecu, i had the carbed version so i ran a complete wire harness, ecu and distributor from a 88-91 civic si simoutamellesly(?)with the original wire harness. It is complicated and a little ghetto-style but it ran good (13.50@97 w/bolt-ons milled head and slicks.) good luck

well... I've had a busy quarter and been sidetracked for a while... but it's almost over so i'm getting ready to push the CRX back into the shop and continue work... Just thought i'd let everyone out there know i was still around... I also have another project car now it's a 89 hatch that i'm building a D16Z6 for. and i figured as long as i'm building the motor from scratch i might as well build it to hold some boost so, that's something else that sapping my resources.