Need Bigtime Help with my 97 Taurus!!!
Loxias44
07-12-2005, 05:42 PM
Hi everyone--
This is my first time coming here, and I'm hoping someone might be able to help me out. I've had my car into 3 different shops a total of 6 times and spent over $1100 trying to get a problem taken care of, but nobody can fix it, including a ford dealership!
I'm going to start from the beginning:
About two weeks ago I noticed some chugging and RPM spiking and dipping intermittently with an occasional stall. It wasn't a huge problem and the car ran ok. No check engine light has ever come on but it does work. I took it to an auto shop who offered cheap ($20) computer diagnostics. The error codes that came back were P0401 and P0402 -- Insufficient EGR Flow and Excessive EGR Flow at the same time. Their first guess was that I needed a fuel injector cleaning to possibly break up some carbon deposits somewhere in the EGR system. They did that and the car seemed to run ok. I took it back the next day because the problem had not gone away. They then determined that it was the EGR Vacuum Solenoid that needed to be replaced, so they did that. It worked wonderfully for about 20 miles and then it started chugging again. When idling, it would do it every 10 seconds or so -- spike and dip a bunch both directions, then normalize, then do it again, but typically when the engine was at operating temperature. The third time I took it back to this shop, the tech actually witnessed what it was doing, but he said he hadn't seen that before and was just, seemingly, replacing parts that COULD have been the problem. They wanted me to come back 2 days later when they had more time to look at it, but I didn't have that time to wait.
So--I took it to another shop a few blocks away--one that is quite respectable, but not the cheapest, so I was reluctant to go there from the beginning. They spent time test driving it and getting it to act up and determined it was the DPFE sensor, which was promptly replaced. This time, the car ran wonderfully for about 100 miles, and then started doing the same thing again. I took it back to this second shop and after a while they came back saying it was the catalytic converter that needed replacing and quoted me at $800 for parts and labor. I'd already spent $500 between the two shops and wasn't about to spend $800, so I took it to the local Ford Dealership thinking that if anyone is going to fix it for good, it would be them.
I took it over there and they didn't see the problem right away, and asked to keep it overnight, so I let them. They called me back the next morning saying that one of my oxygen sensors was not opening at all, and needed replacing. So, I gave the go ahead and they did that. After replacing it, the car was still acting up, so they did more diagnostics and determined that the CCRM relay was bad and needed replacing. I gave the go ahead on that, and then they called me and said that they were 99% sure they'd taken care of the problem and that it was running very smoothly. 50 miles later, it was doing the same thing. I took it back yesterday afternoon, and called them a short while ago and they said that it hasn't been running roughly, but it tends to stall and had twice today. The two parts I had replaced at the dealership cost me another $600, for a grand total (thus far) of $1100.
I've had it to 3 different shops, 6 separate times, and spent $1100 replacing parts that I'm not sure needed replacing, and the car STILL is not fixed. I'm not sure if it's just an incredibly obscure problem or if I'm dealing with a bunch of idiots.
Mind you, I just graduated from college and have some hefty loans, so I don't exactly have a lot of money to throw around.
Can anyone help me with what they thing the problem might be? I'm getting sick of not having a car, and pouring all of the money I've made this summer into. I just want the car fixed once and for all, but nobody seems to be able to do it.
Thanks!
Nick
This is my first time coming here, and I'm hoping someone might be able to help me out. I've had my car into 3 different shops a total of 6 times and spent over $1100 trying to get a problem taken care of, but nobody can fix it, including a ford dealership!
I'm going to start from the beginning:
About two weeks ago I noticed some chugging and RPM spiking and dipping intermittently with an occasional stall. It wasn't a huge problem and the car ran ok. No check engine light has ever come on but it does work. I took it to an auto shop who offered cheap ($20) computer diagnostics. The error codes that came back were P0401 and P0402 -- Insufficient EGR Flow and Excessive EGR Flow at the same time. Their first guess was that I needed a fuel injector cleaning to possibly break up some carbon deposits somewhere in the EGR system. They did that and the car seemed to run ok. I took it back the next day because the problem had not gone away. They then determined that it was the EGR Vacuum Solenoid that needed to be replaced, so they did that. It worked wonderfully for about 20 miles and then it started chugging again. When idling, it would do it every 10 seconds or so -- spike and dip a bunch both directions, then normalize, then do it again, but typically when the engine was at operating temperature. The third time I took it back to this shop, the tech actually witnessed what it was doing, but he said he hadn't seen that before and was just, seemingly, replacing parts that COULD have been the problem. They wanted me to come back 2 days later when they had more time to look at it, but I didn't have that time to wait.
So--I took it to another shop a few blocks away--one that is quite respectable, but not the cheapest, so I was reluctant to go there from the beginning. They spent time test driving it and getting it to act up and determined it was the DPFE sensor, which was promptly replaced. This time, the car ran wonderfully for about 100 miles, and then started doing the same thing again. I took it back to this second shop and after a while they came back saying it was the catalytic converter that needed replacing and quoted me at $800 for parts and labor. I'd already spent $500 between the two shops and wasn't about to spend $800, so I took it to the local Ford Dealership thinking that if anyone is going to fix it for good, it would be them.
I took it over there and they didn't see the problem right away, and asked to keep it overnight, so I let them. They called me back the next morning saying that one of my oxygen sensors was not opening at all, and needed replacing. So, I gave the go ahead and they did that. After replacing it, the car was still acting up, so they did more diagnostics and determined that the CCRM relay was bad and needed replacing. I gave the go ahead on that, and then they called me and said that they were 99% sure they'd taken care of the problem and that it was running very smoothly. 50 miles later, it was doing the same thing. I took it back yesterday afternoon, and called them a short while ago and they said that it hasn't been running roughly, but it tends to stall and had twice today. The two parts I had replaced at the dealership cost me another $600, for a grand total (thus far) of $1100.
I've had it to 3 different shops, 6 separate times, and spent $1100 replacing parts that I'm not sure needed replacing, and the car STILL is not fixed. I'm not sure if it's just an incredibly obscure problem or if I'm dealing with a bunch of idiots.
Mind you, I just graduated from college and have some hefty loans, so I don't exactly have a lot of money to throw around.
Can anyone help me with what they thing the problem might be? I'm getting sick of not having a car, and pouring all of the money I've made this summer into. I just want the car fixed once and for all, but nobody seems to be able to do it.
Thanks!
Nick
shorod
07-12-2005, 06:30 PM
Hi everyone--
[snip]
About two weeks ago I noticed some chugging and RPM spiking and dipping intermittently with an occasional stall. It wasn't a huge problem and the car ran ok. No check engine light has ever come on but it does work. I took it to an auto shop who offered cheap ($20) computer diagnostics. The error codes that came back were P0401 and P0402 -- Insufficient EGR Flow and Excessive EGR Flow at the same time. [snip]
So--I took it to another shop a few blocks away--one that is quite respectable, but not the cheapest, so I was reluctant to go there from the beginning. They spent time test driving it and getting it to act up and determined it was the DPFE sensor, which was promptly replaced. This time, the car ran wonderfully for about 100 miles, and then started doing the same thing again. I took it back to this second shop and after a while they came back saying it was the catalytic converter [snip]
[snip] determined that the CCRM relay was bad and needed replacing. I gave the go ahead on that, and then they called me and said that they were 99% sure they'd taken care of the problem and that it was running very smoothly. 50 miles later, it was doing the same thing. I took it back yesterday afternoon, and called them a short while ago and they said that it hasn't been running roughly, but it tends to stall and had twice today. The two parts I had replaced at the dealership cost me another $600, for a grand total (thus far) of $1100.
I've had it to 3 different shops, 6 separate times, and spent $1100 replacing parts that I'm not sure needed replacing, and the car STILL is not fixed. I'm not sure if it's just an incredibly obscure problem or if I'm dealing with a bunch of idiots.
Mind you, I just graduated from college and have some hefty loans, so I don't exactly have a lot of money to throw around.
Can anyone help me with what they thing the problem might be? I'm getting sick of not having a car, and pouring all of the money I've made this summer into. I just want the car fixed once and for all, but nobody seems to be able to do it.
Thanks!
Nick
First off, welcome.
The DPFE sensor seems to be a rather common problem with the Taurus. Seems like a reasonable item to change based on the codes. However, I don't understand why a shop would think cleaning the injectors might solve an EGR code. I imagine that shop cleared the codes when the car was in there, so the second shop may not have had those to work from. A bad O2 sensor could cause symptoms similar to what you are experiencing, but if an O2 sensor is that bad, the emissions readiness tests should have shown that, and you likely would have had an O2 sensor code. BTW, O2 sensors don't "open up," they produce a voltage based on the amount of air in the exhaust stream relative to the ambient air. Your car should have four O2 sensors, one in each exhaust bank before the catalytic converter and one on each side after the catalytic converter.
The CCRM contains the fuel pump relay and the power relay that provides power to the ECU, so if one of those relays was bad, it could possibly cause what you experienced, but that would seem unlikely. Since it seems the issue is heat-related, I would be more prone to suspect a coil pack, plug wires, or ignition module. None of these items would likely cause the codes you originally had, but it is possible your car had/has multiple issues. Maybe the new DPFE sensor fixed the problem that set the codes, and now you still have the problem that lead you to notice an issue, but one not so obvious problem is fixed. Do either of the shops you had your car to have a decent scan tool that will let them monitor various parameters while driving the car, like misfires, knocking, O2 sensor voltages, and fuel pressure? If so, they at least owe you a long drive with the tool monitoring some common parameters. This could help them determine if your problem is related to an electrical issue, lack of fuel issue, or air/fuel mixture issue.
Once the cars stalls, does it start right back up, or does it take some cranking?
-Rod
[snip]
About two weeks ago I noticed some chugging and RPM spiking and dipping intermittently with an occasional stall. It wasn't a huge problem and the car ran ok. No check engine light has ever come on but it does work. I took it to an auto shop who offered cheap ($20) computer diagnostics. The error codes that came back were P0401 and P0402 -- Insufficient EGR Flow and Excessive EGR Flow at the same time. [snip]
So--I took it to another shop a few blocks away--one that is quite respectable, but not the cheapest, so I was reluctant to go there from the beginning. They spent time test driving it and getting it to act up and determined it was the DPFE sensor, which was promptly replaced. This time, the car ran wonderfully for about 100 miles, and then started doing the same thing again. I took it back to this second shop and after a while they came back saying it was the catalytic converter [snip]
[snip] determined that the CCRM relay was bad and needed replacing. I gave the go ahead on that, and then they called me and said that they were 99% sure they'd taken care of the problem and that it was running very smoothly. 50 miles later, it was doing the same thing. I took it back yesterday afternoon, and called them a short while ago and they said that it hasn't been running roughly, but it tends to stall and had twice today. The two parts I had replaced at the dealership cost me another $600, for a grand total (thus far) of $1100.
I've had it to 3 different shops, 6 separate times, and spent $1100 replacing parts that I'm not sure needed replacing, and the car STILL is not fixed. I'm not sure if it's just an incredibly obscure problem or if I'm dealing with a bunch of idiots.
Mind you, I just graduated from college and have some hefty loans, so I don't exactly have a lot of money to throw around.
Can anyone help me with what they thing the problem might be? I'm getting sick of not having a car, and pouring all of the money I've made this summer into. I just want the car fixed once and for all, but nobody seems to be able to do it.
Thanks!
Nick
First off, welcome.
The DPFE sensor seems to be a rather common problem with the Taurus. Seems like a reasonable item to change based on the codes. However, I don't understand why a shop would think cleaning the injectors might solve an EGR code. I imagine that shop cleared the codes when the car was in there, so the second shop may not have had those to work from. A bad O2 sensor could cause symptoms similar to what you are experiencing, but if an O2 sensor is that bad, the emissions readiness tests should have shown that, and you likely would have had an O2 sensor code. BTW, O2 sensors don't "open up," they produce a voltage based on the amount of air in the exhaust stream relative to the ambient air. Your car should have four O2 sensors, one in each exhaust bank before the catalytic converter and one on each side after the catalytic converter.
The CCRM contains the fuel pump relay and the power relay that provides power to the ECU, so if one of those relays was bad, it could possibly cause what you experienced, but that would seem unlikely. Since it seems the issue is heat-related, I would be more prone to suspect a coil pack, plug wires, or ignition module. None of these items would likely cause the codes you originally had, but it is possible your car had/has multiple issues. Maybe the new DPFE sensor fixed the problem that set the codes, and now you still have the problem that lead you to notice an issue, but one not so obvious problem is fixed. Do either of the shops you had your car to have a decent scan tool that will let them monitor various parameters while driving the car, like misfires, knocking, O2 sensor voltages, and fuel pressure? If so, they at least owe you a long drive with the tool monitoring some common parameters. This could help them determine if your problem is related to an electrical issue, lack of fuel issue, or air/fuel mixture issue.
Once the cars stalls, does it start right back up, or does it take some cranking?
-Rod
Loxias44
07-12-2005, 07:08 PM
When it stalls completely, it cranks back up right away as if there was no problem in the first place. Sometimes it is sort of a half stall where for maybe 5 seconds there will be no RPMs registered even though the car is going 20-30mph. It's almost as if the electronics cut out completely for those few seconds, and then it just sort of comes back to life.
I'm not sure if the first two shops had the equipment you were referring to, but I know the dealership does. I just heard back from them and they don't seem to be able to get it to act up for them at all.
I also noticed recently that when coming to a stop (RPMs at just an idle) the turn signals go crazy--they start blinking very very fast, probably a good 3-4 times faster than normal and as soon as I accelerate, the blinker speed goes back to normal. I can sometimes see the clock light get dim and bright really fast during the same thing with the blinkers. Thinking back, I think this may have started up right around the same time I started having problems with my car, but I can't be certain as to when it started.
I'm not sure if the first two shops had the equipment you were referring to, but I know the dealership does. I just heard back from them and they don't seem to be able to get it to act up for them at all.
I also noticed recently that when coming to a stop (RPMs at just an idle) the turn signals go crazy--they start blinking very very fast, probably a good 3-4 times faster than normal and as soon as I accelerate, the blinker speed goes back to normal. I can sometimes see the clock light get dim and bright really fast during the same thing with the blinkers. Thinking back, I think this may have started up right around the same time I started having problems with my car, but I can't be certain as to when it started.
shorod
07-12-2005, 10:50 PM
When it stalls completely, it cranks back up right away as if there was no problem in the first place. Sometimes it is sort of a half stall where for maybe 5 seconds there will be no RPMs registered even though the car is going 20-30mph. It's almost as if the electronics cut out completely for those few seconds, and then it just sort of comes back to life.
[snip]
Not sure about the '97, but in the late 80's if you mentioned that the tachometer dropped out while the car was running, I'd immediately say you have a bad ignition module. Back then, the tach would drop to 0 and the car would still be running relatively fine. I suppose on your car a bad crankshaft position sensor could also cause your symptoms. Seems odd though that if your problem is either of these, and is also heat related, that the car would reliably start back up. The fact that the car starts right back up has me at a loss.
-Rod
[snip]
Not sure about the '97, but in the late 80's if you mentioned that the tachometer dropped out while the car was running, I'd immediately say you have a bad ignition module. Back then, the tach would drop to 0 and the car would still be running relatively fine. I suppose on your car a bad crankshaft position sensor could also cause your symptoms. Seems odd though that if your problem is either of these, and is also heat related, that the car would reliably start back up. The fact that the car starts right back up has me at a loss.
-Rod
sanida
06-15-2007, 11:55 AM
did you ever get a solution to your problems? I am having the same problems with my 1999 Toyota Camry including the left turn signals blinking rapidly. Does anyone have a solution to this problem. Have been to a few shops now, still getting P0401 and P0402 coming up twice on each for codes. They changed ingnition wires, spark plugs, O2 sensor and VSV. Check engine light came back on within 30 miles. Has now cost me $800.00, This is a used engine that replaced the original one because of sludge. Although everyone says the Toyota cars are outstanding, I think I may have gotten one of the not so outstanding ones. I go back to the shop on Tuesday and would like to have some info to give them.
shorod
06-15-2007, 10:41 PM
Welcome to Automotive Forums!
Are you absolutely positive on those code numbers? P0401 indicates "Insufficient EGR flow detected" and P0402 is exactly the opposite, "Excessive EGR flow detected." Both of these codes relate to the EGR valve, so I'm not sure why the shops would have changed plug wires, plugs, 02 sensor, and VSV (I'm not sure what this is) for these codes. Seems like they should have been focusing on whatever tells the EGR valve to activate and the EGR passages. I'm not sure if the EGR valve on your Camry is electronic or vacuum actuated, but if vacuum, then you should have the vacuum system checked as well for restrictions, collapsing hoses, etc.
Also, have you tried posting on the Toyota Camry forum to see if there is something common to the Camry that causes these codes?
-Rod
Are you absolutely positive on those code numbers? P0401 indicates "Insufficient EGR flow detected" and P0402 is exactly the opposite, "Excessive EGR flow detected." Both of these codes relate to the EGR valve, so I'm not sure why the shops would have changed plug wires, plugs, 02 sensor, and VSV (I'm not sure what this is) for these codes. Seems like they should have been focusing on whatever tells the EGR valve to activate and the EGR passages. I'm not sure if the EGR valve on your Camry is electronic or vacuum actuated, but if vacuum, then you should have the vacuum system checked as well for restrictions, collapsing hoses, etc.
Also, have you tried posting on the Toyota Camry forum to see if there is something common to the Camry that causes these codes?
-Rod
sanida
06-19-2007, 12:10 AM
Thanks for responding Rod,
Yes, I am getting both codes and that is the problem. they said the EGR valve was working fine. I did get other codes along with these two and that is why they changed the ignition wires, spark plugs and so forth. The first place I took it to said that the following codes showed up: P0300,P0302, P0303, P0171, P0401, P0402. They changed the ignition wires and spark plugs, reset the check engine light and 5 miles down the road the light went back on. The second place said the code for the vsv sensor was present and they removed and replaced it. They then road tested it and the codes were 0401, 0402, 1133. Stated that the code for front air fuel meter present removed and replaced air sensor. They then road tested and codes did not return. I picked up the car, drove about 5 miles. pulled into a gas station, filled my tank, started the car and right after leaving the station the light came on. One of the mechanics wanted to put Sea Foam into the gas tank in hopes that it would get rid of the carbon build up, but the other mechanic said it wouldn't help the problem. They want me to leave it with them tomorrow and I just can't be without my car for the next few days. Other than it running a little rough, the only reason I am going through this is because they will not give me an inspection sticker with the check engine light on. I am getting okay gas milleage. The other annoyance is the left signal light that goes fast and then goes back to normal. The vsv sensor is another name for the canister purge solenoid supposedly.
Checked out toyota camry forum and they were of no help. Any suggestions?
Ida
Yes, I am getting both codes and that is the problem. they said the EGR valve was working fine. I did get other codes along with these two and that is why they changed the ignition wires, spark plugs and so forth. The first place I took it to said that the following codes showed up: P0300,P0302, P0303, P0171, P0401, P0402. They changed the ignition wires and spark plugs, reset the check engine light and 5 miles down the road the light went back on. The second place said the code for the vsv sensor was present and they removed and replaced it. They then road tested it and the codes were 0401, 0402, 1133. Stated that the code for front air fuel meter present removed and replaced air sensor. They then road tested and codes did not return. I picked up the car, drove about 5 miles. pulled into a gas station, filled my tank, started the car and right after leaving the station the light came on. One of the mechanics wanted to put Sea Foam into the gas tank in hopes that it would get rid of the carbon build up, but the other mechanic said it wouldn't help the problem. They want me to leave it with them tomorrow and I just can't be without my car for the next few days. Other than it running a little rough, the only reason I am going through this is because they will not give me an inspection sticker with the check engine light on. I am getting okay gas milleage. The other annoyance is the left signal light that goes fast and then goes back to normal. The vsv sensor is another name for the canister purge solenoid supposedly.
Checked out toyota camry forum and they were of no help. Any suggestions?
Ida
shorod
06-19-2007, 01:46 PM
Since you mention that the code showed up after filling up at the gas station, I'd start by making sure that the fuel cap is on properly and tight. A loose or defective fuel cap can cause trouble codes. Some cars have a separate indicator on the instrument panel for "Check Fuel Cap" and others do not. I don't know specifices about your Camry. In such a situation I'd expect more of an emissions/vapor recovery code rather than an EGR code, but it wouldn't hurt to check it.
As for testing the EGR valve, they probably just verified that the EGR valve was moving when commanded to, but may not have checked to make sure the passages were not restricted. The excessive flow code could have just been stating there was more flow than expected at one point in time, but wouldn't necessarily rule out a restricted passage. I'm simply making guesses at this point, sorry.
-Rod
As for testing the EGR valve, they probably just verified that the EGR valve was moving when commanded to, but may not have checked to make sure the passages were not restricted. The excessive flow code could have just been stating there was more flow than expected at one point in time, but wouldn't necessarily rule out a restricted passage. I'm simply making guesses at this point, sorry.
-Rod
sanida
06-20-2007, 08:54 AM
I should have mentioned that i always make sure my gas cap clicks two or more times when i put it on. The mechanic had mentioned the same thing. It doesn't happen just when i fill up. I am going back today and they are going to clean all parts associated with the EGR system. Then I will be away until the weekend. I will let you know how it turns out. Thanks for your help.
Ida
Ida
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