Aerodynamic improve ments
goatnipples2002
07-07-2005, 05:22 PM
I have been doing alot of research about the areodynamics of my GT and came up with a few ideas that others might be interested in. The wing of the fiero does damn near nothing if anything. It needs to be about roof level because of the fieros design. The diagram below shows why. If your satisfied with the wing or don't drive fast then more power to you but if you drive 100mph then you might want to upgrade your wing/spoiler. Spoilers only create downforce when they are in clean air.
http://myfiero.com/uploads/598_.jpg
Vortex Generator. This is a "VG"
http://www.carbonbydesign.com/prodimages/neon/votrex.jpg
It helps improve a spoiler/wings ability to create downfoce. It comes stock on the new evo 8 and many have already copied the design. The funcionality of it on a fiero hasn't been tested yet. On an evo it decreases turbulent air. It affects the boundary layer of air flow. Not sure of its effectiveness, but it's one of the hot topics right now and thought I would inform people about it. The same pattern of "bumps" can be found on the front roof of many trucks. Take a look at the way the cab roof lights are set up.....same shape and similiar pattern :confused: . Think its an accident they are set up that way.....I think not.
To increase downforce up front there are canards
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/images/aprcanard.jpg
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/images/aprcanard3a.jpg
There effectiveness depends on how many you have, their placement, their angle of attack and how fast you are going....yet they do add a considerable amount of downforce.
There is also the front/chin spoiler
http://www.showcars-bodyparts.com/fiero85-88gt-se-frontspoiler.jpg
http://www.fibersmith.net/fiero/images/FieroAMKsilver2.jpg
These don't actually create downforce by themselves. They direct more air into the radiator area (depending on design). Alone these will create a more aggresive look and INCREASE LIFT, BUT when you add a hood vent or extractor scoop the chin spoiler will increase downforce. This is because the air that is being directed into the radiator has no where to exit. So if you add more air that has no where to go that will result in more lift. You add the vent/scoop and the added air has somewhere to exit. Resulting in increased downforce.
The downside of this mod is the price and if you low you fiero you will need to take extra caution so you don't scrape the spoiler.
The next best/cost effective suggestion is to take the bottom section of another aero nose bumper...flip it upside down and mount it this way. This type of bumper mod is more for looks for than function. The upside of this is that you don't have to worry about ride height and the mod can be done for very cheap. Plus it looks damn good.
http://myfiero.com/uploads/564_.jpg
http://myfiero.com/uploads/565_.jpg
http://myfiero.com/uploads/566_.jpg
The best and most important mod to keep your front end stable when driving fast is to put an extractor scoop or a hood vent directly over the radiator compartment. I have a 6x6 hole over my radiator compartment and it helped tremendously...going 130mph felt like 60mph.
http://myfiero.com/uploads/600_.jpg
I need to read more so this is it for now. Tell me what ya'll think.
(None of these fieros are mine, just posted for examples.)
http://myfiero.com/uploads/598_.jpg
Vortex Generator. This is a "VG"
http://www.carbonbydesign.com/prodimages/neon/votrex.jpg
It helps improve a spoiler/wings ability to create downfoce. It comes stock on the new evo 8 and many have already copied the design. The funcionality of it on a fiero hasn't been tested yet. On an evo it decreases turbulent air. It affects the boundary layer of air flow. Not sure of its effectiveness, but it's one of the hot topics right now and thought I would inform people about it. The same pattern of "bumps" can be found on the front roof of many trucks. Take a look at the way the cab roof lights are set up.....same shape and similiar pattern :confused: . Think its an accident they are set up that way.....I think not.
To increase downforce up front there are canards
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/images/aprcanard.jpg
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/images/aprcanard3a.jpg
There effectiveness depends on how many you have, their placement, their angle of attack and how fast you are going....yet they do add a considerable amount of downforce.
There is also the front/chin spoiler
http://www.showcars-bodyparts.com/fiero85-88gt-se-frontspoiler.jpg
http://www.fibersmith.net/fiero/images/FieroAMKsilver2.jpg
These don't actually create downforce by themselves. They direct more air into the radiator area (depending on design). Alone these will create a more aggresive look and INCREASE LIFT, BUT when you add a hood vent or extractor scoop the chin spoiler will increase downforce. This is because the air that is being directed into the radiator has no where to exit. So if you add more air that has no where to go that will result in more lift. You add the vent/scoop and the added air has somewhere to exit. Resulting in increased downforce.
The downside of this mod is the price and if you low you fiero you will need to take extra caution so you don't scrape the spoiler.
The next best/cost effective suggestion is to take the bottom section of another aero nose bumper...flip it upside down and mount it this way. This type of bumper mod is more for looks for than function. The upside of this is that you don't have to worry about ride height and the mod can be done for very cheap. Plus it looks damn good.
http://myfiero.com/uploads/564_.jpg
http://myfiero.com/uploads/565_.jpg
http://myfiero.com/uploads/566_.jpg
The best and most important mod to keep your front end stable when driving fast is to put an extractor scoop or a hood vent directly over the radiator compartment. I have a 6x6 hole over my radiator compartment and it helped tremendously...going 130mph felt like 60mph.
http://myfiero.com/uploads/600_.jpg
I need to read more so this is it for now. Tell me what ya'll think.
(None of these fieros are mine, just posted for examples.)
Black Lotus
07-09-2005, 04:47 PM
The vortex generators as used on the Evo won't work on a stock Fiero, as there is nothing to attach the airflow to (open air behind the rear roof line).
In any event, the rear roof line's sudden termination trips the airflow downward and ultimately the airflow spirals around like a horizontal tornado. If you were to look at a side view of the car and the front is pointing to the left, the airflow would be from left to right. And the "tornado" that I'm referring to would then be clockwise. As you can imagine, this would bend the overall upper surface airflow down, just far enough to impact the aft upper suface of the stock wing.
The stock rear wing acts (IMO) the equivalent to you sticking the tip of your finger into the water stream of a faucet. You can deflect the flow of the water. I think the same thing happens to the airflow behind the wing, it deflects down giving the Fiero a passable Cd.
Just my opinion from reading, my own observations, and looking at photos of the car at speed with streamers attached.
In any event, the rear roof line's sudden termination trips the airflow downward and ultimately the airflow spirals around like a horizontal tornado. If you were to look at a side view of the car and the front is pointing to the left, the airflow would be from left to right. And the "tornado" that I'm referring to would then be clockwise. As you can imagine, this would bend the overall upper surface airflow down, just far enough to impact the aft upper suface of the stock wing.
The stock rear wing acts (IMO) the equivalent to you sticking the tip of your finger into the water stream of a faucet. You can deflect the flow of the water. I think the same thing happens to the airflow behind the wing, it deflects down giving the Fiero a passable Cd.
Just my opinion from reading, my own observations, and looking at photos of the car at speed with streamers attached.
goatnipples2002
07-10-2005, 03:18 AM
Sounds good.....BUT not quite how it goes. Sometimes you can't apply common logic to physics. The wind coming off the end of the roof will "swirl"....which is called rear vacuum effect and that does nothing for downforce. If the wind is "swirling" towards the back window as you say how could your wing provide any down force if there is never a chance for "clean"/non-turbulent air to pass over it? Your wing would need to in a place of clean air in order for it to be effective. This area of clean air is higher than the stock location.....it is located about roof level.
Another detail about our wings is that the angle of attack is setup for MINIMAL downforce/drag. Wings need to have a greater angle of attack when you are going less than about 150mph. Wings with a slight angle of attack are usually found on cars that are on speedways going like 200mph. They don't rely on there wings for downforce but the actual structure of the chassis provides most of the downforce. Street cars require a wing with an agressive angle so the wing can provide downforce when cornering.
The VG would delay the rear vacuum effect so that the wing could pick it up before it "swirls". VGs work on damn near all vehicles. They've had them on planes for many decades. It's not what the air does before the VG, it's what the air does after the VG as it rolls off the edge of the roof.
Now time for some details.....when air travels over your car it becomes more and more unstable and unpredictable with changing patterns which is called turbulence. So by time the wind hits the end of your roof it is extremely turbulent. The turbulent air passes over the VG.....the VG speeds up the turbulent air.....this speed increase causes a pressure reduction. This pressure is what causes the "swirl". Reduce the pressure of the trubulent air and you reduce the "swirl".
Did you see the post on Pennock's where someone put strips on the back of his fiero? He had a rear decklid scoop facing the wing and you would assume that the air would come out of it and the vents......but the opposite happened. Guess why? Because of the "SWIRL" :eek7:. Just a real life example of what I was trying to explain.
Here's the link http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/064636.html
Found this one too...it's old but it has some good stuff. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/060770.html
You do have a point about ours car having a different flow pattern than most other cars. I left links in the 1st post and here that explain it better than I. I don't claim to be a aerodynamists or physicist so if i am wrong please correct me.
This is the research done by the mitsubishi enegineers that designed the VG.
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2004/16E_03.pdf
Another detail about our wings is that the angle of attack is setup for MINIMAL downforce/drag. Wings need to have a greater angle of attack when you are going less than about 150mph. Wings with a slight angle of attack are usually found on cars that are on speedways going like 200mph. They don't rely on there wings for downforce but the actual structure of the chassis provides most of the downforce. Street cars require a wing with an agressive angle so the wing can provide downforce when cornering.
The VG would delay the rear vacuum effect so that the wing could pick it up before it "swirls". VGs work on damn near all vehicles. They've had them on planes for many decades. It's not what the air does before the VG, it's what the air does after the VG as it rolls off the edge of the roof.
Now time for some details.....when air travels over your car it becomes more and more unstable and unpredictable with changing patterns which is called turbulence. So by time the wind hits the end of your roof it is extremely turbulent. The turbulent air passes over the VG.....the VG speeds up the turbulent air.....this speed increase causes a pressure reduction. This pressure is what causes the "swirl". Reduce the pressure of the trubulent air and you reduce the "swirl".
Did you see the post on Pennock's where someone put strips on the back of his fiero? He had a rear decklid scoop facing the wing and you would assume that the air would come out of it and the vents......but the opposite happened. Guess why? Because of the "SWIRL" :eek7:. Just a real life example of what I was trying to explain.
Here's the link http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/064636.html
Found this one too...it's old but it has some good stuff. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/060770.html
You do have a point about ours car having a different flow pattern than most other cars. I left links in the 1st post and here that explain it better than I. I don't claim to be a aerodynamists or physicist so if i am wrong please correct me.
This is the research done by the mitsubishi enegineers that designed the VG.
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2004/16E_03.pdf
Black Lotus
07-11-2005, 06:42 PM
Sounds good.....BUT not quite how it goes. Sometimes you can't apply common logic to physics. The wind coming off the end of the roof will "swirl"....which is called rear vacuum effect and that does nothing for downforce. If the wind is "swirling" towards the back window as you say how could your wing provide any down force if there is never a chance for "clean"/non-turbulent air to pass over it? Your wing would need to in a place of clean air in order for it to be effective. This area of clean air is higher than the stock location.....it is located about roof level.
Another detail about our wings is that the angle of attack is setup for MINIMAL downforce/drag. Wings need to have a greater angle of attack when you are going less than about 150mph. Wings with a slight angle of attack are usually found on cars that are on speedways going like 200mph. They don't rely on there wings for downforce but the actual structure of the chassis provides most of the downforce. Street cars require a wing with an agressive angle so the wing can provide downforce when cornering.
The VG would delay the rear vacuum effect so that the wing could pick it up before it "swirls". VGs work on damn near all vehicles. They've had them on planes for many decades. It's not what the air does before the VG, it's what the air does after the VG as it rolls off the edge of the roof.
Now time for some details.....when air travels over your car it becomes more and more unstable and unpredictable with changing patterns which is called turbulence. So by time the wind hits the end of your roof it is extremely turbulent. The turbulent air passes over the VG.....the VG speeds up the turbulent air.....this speed increase causes a pressure reduction. This pressure is what causes the "swirl". Reduce the pressure of the trubulent air and you reduce the "swirl".
Did you see the post on Pennock's where someone put strips on the back of his fiero? He had a rear decklid scoop facing the wing and you would assume that the air would come out of it and the vents......but the opposite happened. Guess why? Because of the "SWIRL" :eek7:. Just a real life example of what I was trying to explain.
Here's the link http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/064636.html
Found this one too...it's old but it has some good stuff. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/060770.html
You do have a point about ours car having a different flow pattern than most other cars. I left links in the 1st post and here that explain it better than I. I don't claim to be a aerodynamists or physicist so if i am wrong please correct me.
This is the research done by the mitsubishi enegineers that designed the VG.
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2004/16E_03.pdf
"rear vacuum effect"
Well, that's some new terminology for me....
"how could your wing provide any down force".
Never said it did or would.
"They've had them on planes for many decades."
I know, I was just contemplating some located on the underside of the leading edge slats on a brand new 737 sitting inside the Boeing Renton factory building.
"Did you see the post on Pennock's where someone put strips on the back of his fiero?"
Yes I did. That's what reinforced my OPINION of what the airflow patterns are at the rear of the Fiero.
Obviously we are two different people, who look at the same data and reach different conclusions.
We can just leave it at that.
Another detail about our wings is that the angle of attack is setup for MINIMAL downforce/drag. Wings need to have a greater angle of attack when you are going less than about 150mph. Wings with a slight angle of attack are usually found on cars that are on speedways going like 200mph. They don't rely on there wings for downforce but the actual structure of the chassis provides most of the downforce. Street cars require a wing with an agressive angle so the wing can provide downforce when cornering.
The VG would delay the rear vacuum effect so that the wing could pick it up before it "swirls". VGs work on damn near all vehicles. They've had them on planes for many decades. It's not what the air does before the VG, it's what the air does after the VG as it rolls off the edge of the roof.
Now time for some details.....when air travels over your car it becomes more and more unstable and unpredictable with changing patterns which is called turbulence. So by time the wind hits the end of your roof it is extremely turbulent. The turbulent air passes over the VG.....the VG speeds up the turbulent air.....this speed increase causes a pressure reduction. This pressure is what causes the "swirl". Reduce the pressure of the trubulent air and you reduce the "swirl".
Did you see the post on Pennock's where someone put strips on the back of his fiero? He had a rear decklid scoop facing the wing and you would assume that the air would come out of it and the vents......but the opposite happened. Guess why? Because of the "SWIRL" :eek7:. Just a real life example of what I was trying to explain.
Here's the link http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/064636.html
Found this one too...it's old but it has some good stuff. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/060770.html
You do have a point about ours car having a different flow pattern than most other cars. I left links in the 1st post and here that explain it better than I. I don't claim to be a aerodynamists or physicist so if i am wrong please correct me.
This is the research done by the mitsubishi enegineers that designed the VG.
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2004/16E_03.pdf
"rear vacuum effect"
Well, that's some new terminology for me....
"how could your wing provide any down force".
Never said it did or would.
"They've had them on planes for many decades."
I know, I was just contemplating some located on the underside of the leading edge slats on a brand new 737 sitting inside the Boeing Renton factory building.
"Did you see the post on Pennock's where someone put strips on the back of his fiero?"
Yes I did. That's what reinforced my OPINION of what the airflow patterns are at the rear of the Fiero.
Obviously we are two different people, who look at the same data and reach different conclusions.
We can just leave it at that.
goatnipples2002
07-11-2005, 08:34 PM
No problem man. The only reason I started researching the subject and posted was because I wanted to go faster without doing anything mechanical. I figured that a fiero has never seen a wind tunnel unless the owner did it. You are intitled to your own opinion i am just trying to help.
fierangero
07-12-2005, 01:48 PM
i have a strong feeling that the spoiler does, even minimally, create downforce. i look back i can see the wind blowing against the spoiler when im driving, and around 110 or so the front end starts to lift, partially due to the downforce on the rear (kinda like hondas with spoilers, except not as detrimental since we are rwd) so while its not as effective as it could be, adding additional downforce to a car that will most likely never see the other side of 140 mph is akin to putting full sandbags in the trunk, you get the force effect but without any real benefit
goatnipples2002
07-12-2005, 02:28 PM
The reason your front end raises is not because of rear downforce it's because of the pressure under the hood. When you go fast enough the air that goes to the radiator has ni where to go so the front end becomes a "kite". I bet you don't have a scoop (facing backwards) on your hood to let the air out....do you? Try that and your kite effect will be gone. I put a 5"x5" hole in my hood right above the radiator compartment and at 120-130mph it feels like 60mph. I have no lift, my responsiveness at 120mph is perfect....considering my old ass suspension. Aerodynamics has alot to do with speeding and the cars ability to "cut" through the wind instead of "plowing" through the wind. Read my 1st post all this is explained. If you add downforce to the rear you MUST add it to the front....vice versa. Aerodynamics is the one thing that can increase top speed and E/Ts without doing engine work.
RandomTask
07-13-2005, 10:55 AM
First off goat, never to trust a site thats trying to sell you something... period.
Second- You ask for help, then when you get it, you tell the people they are wrong...
Third- "Vaccum Effect"? You mean drag? A VG is used to decrease drag, not provide downforce. The only thing a VG could be considered to help is the reducing the boundary area which may at the slightest level (I'm talking .0000001%) exchange some parasitic drag for lift induced drag. But its main function is to elminate drag, not provide downforce. Putting a VG at an sharp edge is almost worthless.
"If you add downforce to the rear you MUST add it to the front....vice versa" --- False, or what, your car will spontaneously explode?
The reason for the Fiero's high drag co-efficient is its sharp (almost 90 degree's) after the roofline. This creates a low pressure area-- aka drag-- (this is also why those vents are designed to let heat out, not push air in) perhaps this is what you meant by vaccum effect?
You want to reduce drag and get some more down force on the fiero? Make a smooth, rounded panel that covers the rear decklid that extends to both pillars, roofline, and rear of the trunk. Only then would a VG be useful on the car.
You need to take a course in fluid dynamics, ...
And if you think I'm talking out of my ass, I invite you to critisize me. I've worked at NASA Langley wind tunnel for over 2 years and would like to hear what you have to say.
Second- You ask for help, then when you get it, you tell the people they are wrong...
Third- "Vaccum Effect"? You mean drag? A VG is used to decrease drag, not provide downforce. The only thing a VG could be considered to help is the reducing the boundary area which may at the slightest level (I'm talking .0000001%) exchange some parasitic drag for lift induced drag. But its main function is to elminate drag, not provide downforce. Putting a VG at an sharp edge is almost worthless.
"If you add downforce to the rear you MUST add it to the front....vice versa" --- False, or what, your car will spontaneously explode?
The reason for the Fiero's high drag co-efficient is its sharp (almost 90 degree's) after the roofline. This creates a low pressure area-- aka drag-- (this is also why those vents are designed to let heat out, not push air in) perhaps this is what you meant by vaccum effect?
You want to reduce drag and get some more down force on the fiero? Make a smooth, rounded panel that covers the rear decklid that extends to both pillars, roofline, and rear of the trunk. Only then would a VG be useful on the car.
You need to take a course in fluid dynamics, ...
And if you think I'm talking out of my ass, I invite you to critisize me. I've worked at NASA Langley wind tunnel for over 2 years and would like to hear what you have to say.
goatnipples2002
07-13-2005, 05:37 PM
First off goat, never to trust a site thats trying to sell you something... period.
I don't trust their products If you knew abour aerodynamics you would understand that they are only reciting basic aerodynamic theories and principles. So that is the only reason I posted that site.
Second- You ask for help, then when you get it, you tell the people they are wrong...I never asked foe help.....I started this post to help others understand how to improve their fieros and share what I learned from my research.
Third- "Vaccum Effect"? You mean drag? A VG is used to decrease drag, not provide downforce. The only thing a VG could be considered to help is the reducing the boundary area which may at the slightest level (I'm talking .0000001%) exchange some parasitic drag for lift induced drag. But its main function is to elminate drag, not provide downforce. Putting a VG at an sharp edge is almost worthless.NO, drag and vacuum effect are two different things.
I tried to keep it simple but here.....
Aerodynamic drag - The drag produced by a moving object as it displaces the air in its path. Aerodynamic drag is a force usually measured in pounds; it increases in proportion to the object's frontal area, its drag coefficient, and the square of its speed.
Rear vacuum aka FLOW DETACHMENT (a non-technical term, but very descriptive) is caused by the "hole" left in the air as the car passes through it. To visualize this, imagine a bus driving down a road. The blocky shape of the bus punches a big hole in the air, with the air rushing around the body, as mentioned above. At speeds above a crawl, the space directly behind the bus is "empty" or like a vacuum. This empty area is a result of the air molecules not being able to fill the hole as quickly as the bus can make it. The air molecules attempt to fill in to this area, but the bus is always one step ahead, and as a result, a continuous vacuum sucks in the opposite direction of the bus. This inability to fill the hole left by the bus is technically called Flow detachment. See the diagram below.
http://www.gmecca.com/byorc/images/rearvacuum.gif
Flow detachment applies only to the "rear vacuum" portion of the drag equation, and it is really about giving the air molecules time to follow the contours of a car's bodywork, and to fill the hole left by the vehicle, it's tires, it's suspension and protrusions (ie. mirrors, roll bars). If you have witnessed the Le Mans race cars, you will have seen how the tails of these cars tend to extend well back of the rear wheels, and narrow when viewed from the side or top. This extra bodywork allows the air molecules to converge back into the vaccum smoothly along the body into the hole left by the car's cockpit, and front area, instead of having to suddenly fill a large empty space.
The reason keeping flow attachment is so important is that the force created by the vacuum far exceeds that created by frontal pressure, and this can be attributed to the Turbulence created by the detachment.
"If you add downforce to the rear you MUST add it to the front....vice versa" --- False, or what, your car will spontaneously explode?When 1 side of your car has more downforce than the other it allows the pressure under/above the car to be unequal which leads to lift (the enemy).
The reason for the Fiero's high drag co-efficient is its sharp (almost 90 degree's) after the roofline. This creates a low pressure area-- aka drag-- (this is also why those vents are designed to let heat out, not push air in) perhaps this is what you meant by vaccum effect?The major cause of the high drag co-effient is the slant on the windshield. The rear window creates a problem with flow detachment. Low pressure is not drag. The bottom of the fiero was designed to allow air come up for cooling not in. And No that is not what I mean by vacuum effect.
You want to reduce drag and get some more down force on the fiero? Make a smooth, rounded panel that covers the rear decklid that extends to both pillars, roofline, and rear of the trunk. Only then would a VG be useful on the car.
You need to take a course in fluid dynamics, ...You are correct about the panel idea, it would help greatly. I am not sure if a VG would work without it. In theory yes, but in the real world...who knows. I study alot of AERODYNAMICS. Plus the vortex generator was researched, desighned and tested on the Mitsubishi Evolution 8...never intended for the Fiero, but I talked about it because it sounded useful and was found to be funtional on other vehicles. So I thought why not the fiero. I believe it would help with the problem of our back windows.
And if you think I'm talking out of my ass, I invite you to critisize me. I've worked at NASA Langley wind tunnel for over 2 years and would like to hear what you have to say.I don't assume you are talking out of your ass, but it seems that our terminology is different. For a nasa guy seems like you are rusty, time to start studying again. Do you still have "connections" at the tunnel? I only repeat what I read in the books.
Did You ever get a chance to put a Fiero in the tunnel?
What do you suggest needs to be done to the Fiero to increase its performance/downforce?
What about.....canards?...chin spoilers?.....ground effects?.....roof scoops?.....naca scoops?.....vortex generator? have you had any experience with these mods?
I am not critisizing you (anymore :grinno: ). I would really like to see what you do know.
I don't trust their products If you knew abour aerodynamics you would understand that they are only reciting basic aerodynamic theories and principles. So that is the only reason I posted that site.
Second- You ask for help, then when you get it, you tell the people they are wrong...I never asked foe help.....I started this post to help others understand how to improve their fieros and share what I learned from my research.
Third- "Vaccum Effect"? You mean drag? A VG is used to decrease drag, not provide downforce. The only thing a VG could be considered to help is the reducing the boundary area which may at the slightest level (I'm talking .0000001%) exchange some parasitic drag for lift induced drag. But its main function is to elminate drag, not provide downforce. Putting a VG at an sharp edge is almost worthless.NO, drag and vacuum effect are two different things.
I tried to keep it simple but here.....
Aerodynamic drag - The drag produced by a moving object as it displaces the air in its path. Aerodynamic drag is a force usually measured in pounds; it increases in proportion to the object's frontal area, its drag coefficient, and the square of its speed.
Rear vacuum aka FLOW DETACHMENT (a non-technical term, but very descriptive) is caused by the "hole" left in the air as the car passes through it. To visualize this, imagine a bus driving down a road. The blocky shape of the bus punches a big hole in the air, with the air rushing around the body, as mentioned above. At speeds above a crawl, the space directly behind the bus is "empty" or like a vacuum. This empty area is a result of the air molecules not being able to fill the hole as quickly as the bus can make it. The air molecules attempt to fill in to this area, but the bus is always one step ahead, and as a result, a continuous vacuum sucks in the opposite direction of the bus. This inability to fill the hole left by the bus is technically called Flow detachment. See the diagram below.
http://www.gmecca.com/byorc/images/rearvacuum.gif
Flow detachment applies only to the "rear vacuum" portion of the drag equation, and it is really about giving the air molecules time to follow the contours of a car's bodywork, and to fill the hole left by the vehicle, it's tires, it's suspension and protrusions (ie. mirrors, roll bars). If you have witnessed the Le Mans race cars, you will have seen how the tails of these cars tend to extend well back of the rear wheels, and narrow when viewed from the side or top. This extra bodywork allows the air molecules to converge back into the vaccum smoothly along the body into the hole left by the car's cockpit, and front area, instead of having to suddenly fill a large empty space.
The reason keeping flow attachment is so important is that the force created by the vacuum far exceeds that created by frontal pressure, and this can be attributed to the Turbulence created by the detachment.
"If you add downforce to the rear you MUST add it to the front....vice versa" --- False, or what, your car will spontaneously explode?When 1 side of your car has more downforce than the other it allows the pressure under/above the car to be unequal which leads to lift (the enemy).
The reason for the Fiero's high drag co-efficient is its sharp (almost 90 degree's) after the roofline. This creates a low pressure area-- aka drag-- (this is also why those vents are designed to let heat out, not push air in) perhaps this is what you meant by vaccum effect?The major cause of the high drag co-effient is the slant on the windshield. The rear window creates a problem with flow detachment. Low pressure is not drag. The bottom of the fiero was designed to allow air come up for cooling not in. And No that is not what I mean by vacuum effect.
You want to reduce drag and get some more down force on the fiero? Make a smooth, rounded panel that covers the rear decklid that extends to both pillars, roofline, and rear of the trunk. Only then would a VG be useful on the car.
You need to take a course in fluid dynamics, ...You are correct about the panel idea, it would help greatly. I am not sure if a VG would work without it. In theory yes, but in the real world...who knows. I study alot of AERODYNAMICS. Plus the vortex generator was researched, desighned and tested on the Mitsubishi Evolution 8...never intended for the Fiero, but I talked about it because it sounded useful and was found to be funtional on other vehicles. So I thought why not the fiero. I believe it would help with the problem of our back windows.
And if you think I'm talking out of my ass, I invite you to critisize me. I've worked at NASA Langley wind tunnel for over 2 years and would like to hear what you have to say.I don't assume you are talking out of your ass, but it seems that our terminology is different. For a nasa guy seems like you are rusty, time to start studying again. Do you still have "connections" at the tunnel? I only repeat what I read in the books.
Did You ever get a chance to put a Fiero in the tunnel?
What do you suggest needs to be done to the Fiero to increase its performance/downforce?
What about.....canards?...chin spoilers?.....ground effects?.....roof scoops?.....naca scoops?.....vortex generator? have you had any experience with these mods?
I am not critisizing you (anymore :grinno: ). I would really like to see what you do know.
fierangero
07-13-2005, 10:21 PM
hrm...iirc the owners manual was touting the low Drag Coefficient (.377) of the fiero. sure its not an '05 vette (.27), but its fairly efficient for an 80's car (efficiency rating of .65)
as far as the vacuum after the sharp roofline, that is correct, i remember having many arguments with truck owners saying "if u put ur tailgate down, it goes faster/better gas mileage" i just laugh at them and offer to sell them a turbonator :grinyes:
as far as the vacuum after the sharp roofline, that is correct, i remember having many arguments with truck owners saying "if u put ur tailgate down, it goes faster/better gas mileage" i just laugh at them and offer to sell them a turbonator :grinyes:
RandomTask
07-15-2005, 11:14 AM
I don't trust their products If you knew abour aerodynamics you would understand that they are only reciting basic aerodynamic theories and principles. So that is the only reason I posted that site.
I never asked foe help.....I started this post to help others understand how to improve their fieros and share what I learned from my research.
NO, drag and vacuum effect are two different things.
I tried to keep it simple but here.....
Aerodynamic drag - The drag produced by a moving object as it displaces the air in its path. Aerodynamic drag is a force usually measured in pounds; it increases in proportion to the object's frontal area, its drag coefficient, and the square of its speed.
Rear vacuum aka FLOW DETACHMENT (a non-technical term, but very descriptive) is caused by the "hole" left in the air as the car passes through it. To visualize this, imagine a bus driving down a road. The blocky shape of the bus punches a big hole in the air, with the air rushing around the body, as mentioned above. At speeds above a crawl, the space directly behind the bus is "empty" or like a vacuum. This empty area is a result of the air molecules not being able to fill the hole as quickly as the bus can make it. The air molecules attempt to fill in to this area, but the bus is always one step ahead, and as a result, a continuous vacuum sucks in the opposite direction of the bus. This inability to fill the hole left by the bus is technically called Flow detachment. See the diagram below.
http://www.gmecca.com/byorc/images/rearvacuum.gif
Flow detachment applies only to the "rear vacuum" portion of the drag equation, and it is really about giving the air molecules time to follow the contours of a car's bodywork, and to fill the hole left by the vehicle, it's tires, it's suspension and protrusions (ie. mirrors, roll bars). If you have witnessed the Le Mans race cars, you will have seen how the tails of these cars tend to extend well back of the rear wheels, and narrow when viewed from the side or top. This extra bodywork allows the air molecules to converge back into the vaccum smoothly along the body into the hole left by the car's cockpit, and front area, instead of having to suddenly fill a large empty space.
The reason keeping flow attachment is so important is that the force created by the vacuum far exceeds that created by frontal pressure, and this can be attributed to the Turbulence created by the detachment.
When 1 side of your car has more downforce than the other it allows the pressure under/above the car to be unequal which leads to lift (the enemy).
The major cause of the high drag co-effient is the slant on the windshield. The rear window creates a problem with flow detachment. Low pressure is not drag. The bottom of the fiero was designed to allow air come up for cooling not in. And No that is not what I mean by vacuum effect.
You are correct about the panel idea, it would help greatly. I am not sure if a VG would work without it. In theory yes, but in the real world...who knows. I study alot of AERODYNAMICS. Plus the vortex generator was researched, desighned and tested on the Mitsubishi Evolution 8...never intended for the Fiero, but I talked about it because it sounded useful and was found to be funtional on other vehicles. So I thought why not the fiero. I believe it would help with the problem of our back windows.
I don't assume you are talking out of your ass, but it seems that our terminology is different. For a nasa guy seems like you are rusty, time to start studying again. Do you still have "connections" at the tunnel? I only repeat what I read in the books.
Did You ever get a chance to put a Fiero in the tunnel?
What do you suggest needs to be done to the Fiero to increase its performance/downforce?
What about.....canards?...chin spoilers?.....ground effects?.....roof scoops?.....naca scoops?.....vortex generator? have you had any experience with these mods?
I am not critisizing you (anymore :grinno: ). I would really like to see what you do know.
No, I've never put a Fiero in the tunnel, at $8K an hour with a minimum of two hours setup it was just a little out of my price range :) I have done cup cars, Grand Am series cars, and a couple of others.
2nd- I think we are both confused on an understanding of eachother. Theres drag air going over a surface, I think think this is what you mean by frontal area. I mean this by boundary area. No surface is perfectly smooth. Imagine rubbing your hand against sandpaper, theres friction. Theres still friction against any surface, and this creates drag as well.
The way it (air flow) departs, or the flow detachment as you stated is absolutely critical. This vaccum is a form of drag. You could have a semi with a long tapered front and rear, that has a large frontal area, then take a a minivan thats shaped like a brick. The Semi would have more of a surface drag, (or parasitic) drag but less lift induced drag. Overall, the semi would experience less overall drag.
Taking example of NASCAR, it is not absolutely necessary to add downforce to both ends of the car. Their spoilers create a lot of downforce and drag (mostly drag) yet they are not running a front spoiler.
Lift is either created by a wing, or high pressure underneath the car. (there are a couple of other variables that may induce lift, but their forces are negligable) If you can eliminate the pressure underneath (I.E. an airdam, or a hole in the hood as you suggested) the pressure decreases.
I have some books somewhere on all of this and am trying to find them...
I never asked foe help.....I started this post to help others understand how to improve their fieros and share what I learned from my research.
NO, drag and vacuum effect are two different things.
I tried to keep it simple but here.....
Aerodynamic drag - The drag produced by a moving object as it displaces the air in its path. Aerodynamic drag is a force usually measured in pounds; it increases in proportion to the object's frontal area, its drag coefficient, and the square of its speed.
Rear vacuum aka FLOW DETACHMENT (a non-technical term, but very descriptive) is caused by the "hole" left in the air as the car passes through it. To visualize this, imagine a bus driving down a road. The blocky shape of the bus punches a big hole in the air, with the air rushing around the body, as mentioned above. At speeds above a crawl, the space directly behind the bus is "empty" or like a vacuum. This empty area is a result of the air molecules not being able to fill the hole as quickly as the bus can make it. The air molecules attempt to fill in to this area, but the bus is always one step ahead, and as a result, a continuous vacuum sucks in the opposite direction of the bus. This inability to fill the hole left by the bus is technically called Flow detachment. See the diagram below.
http://www.gmecca.com/byorc/images/rearvacuum.gif
Flow detachment applies only to the "rear vacuum" portion of the drag equation, and it is really about giving the air molecules time to follow the contours of a car's bodywork, and to fill the hole left by the vehicle, it's tires, it's suspension and protrusions (ie. mirrors, roll bars). If you have witnessed the Le Mans race cars, you will have seen how the tails of these cars tend to extend well back of the rear wheels, and narrow when viewed from the side or top. This extra bodywork allows the air molecules to converge back into the vaccum smoothly along the body into the hole left by the car's cockpit, and front area, instead of having to suddenly fill a large empty space.
The reason keeping flow attachment is so important is that the force created by the vacuum far exceeds that created by frontal pressure, and this can be attributed to the Turbulence created by the detachment.
When 1 side of your car has more downforce than the other it allows the pressure under/above the car to be unequal which leads to lift (the enemy).
The major cause of the high drag co-effient is the slant on the windshield. The rear window creates a problem with flow detachment. Low pressure is not drag. The bottom of the fiero was designed to allow air come up for cooling not in. And No that is not what I mean by vacuum effect.
You are correct about the panel idea, it would help greatly. I am not sure if a VG would work without it. In theory yes, but in the real world...who knows. I study alot of AERODYNAMICS. Plus the vortex generator was researched, desighned and tested on the Mitsubishi Evolution 8...never intended for the Fiero, but I talked about it because it sounded useful and was found to be funtional on other vehicles. So I thought why not the fiero. I believe it would help with the problem of our back windows.
I don't assume you are talking out of your ass, but it seems that our terminology is different. For a nasa guy seems like you are rusty, time to start studying again. Do you still have "connections" at the tunnel? I only repeat what I read in the books.
Did You ever get a chance to put a Fiero in the tunnel?
What do you suggest needs to be done to the Fiero to increase its performance/downforce?
What about.....canards?...chin spoilers?.....ground effects?.....roof scoops?.....naca scoops?.....vortex generator? have you had any experience with these mods?
I am not critisizing you (anymore :grinno: ). I would really like to see what you do know.
No, I've never put a Fiero in the tunnel, at $8K an hour with a minimum of two hours setup it was just a little out of my price range :) I have done cup cars, Grand Am series cars, and a couple of others.
2nd- I think we are both confused on an understanding of eachother. Theres drag air going over a surface, I think think this is what you mean by frontal area. I mean this by boundary area. No surface is perfectly smooth. Imagine rubbing your hand against sandpaper, theres friction. Theres still friction against any surface, and this creates drag as well.
The way it (air flow) departs, or the flow detachment as you stated is absolutely critical. This vaccum is a form of drag. You could have a semi with a long tapered front and rear, that has a large frontal area, then take a a minivan thats shaped like a brick. The Semi would have more of a surface drag, (or parasitic) drag but less lift induced drag. Overall, the semi would experience less overall drag.
Taking example of NASCAR, it is not absolutely necessary to add downforce to both ends of the car. Their spoilers create a lot of downforce and drag (mostly drag) yet they are not running a front spoiler.
Lift is either created by a wing, or high pressure underneath the car. (there are a couple of other variables that may induce lift, but their forces are negligable) If you can eliminate the pressure underneath (I.E. an airdam, or a hole in the hood as you suggested) the pressure decreases.
I have some books somewhere on all of this and am trying to find them...
goatnipples2002
07-15-2005, 12:21 PM
Is this a break through? :ylsuper:
You are right. Air does "stick" to all surfaces. Just rub your car down with baby oil :lol2:
Why the hell does it cost so much for a damn tunnel with smoke. Is it any cheaper anywhere else? I assume nasa would charge a bunch.
Now the nascars have airdams aka chin spoilers on the front and theyare about an inch or less off the ground.
What's a cup car?
You just can't put a hole in the front and ride out.....you must have a scoop facing the windshield. Just in case anybody had any ideas of just cutting a hole in their hood. I believe it is called an extractor scoop when use it this way.
So you don't think the VG would work on our cars?
What about canards.....I know they work, but do you think they are worth it?
You are right. Air does "stick" to all surfaces. Just rub your car down with baby oil :lol2:
Why the hell does it cost so much for a damn tunnel with smoke. Is it any cheaper anywhere else? I assume nasa would charge a bunch.
Now the nascars have airdams aka chin spoilers on the front and theyare about an inch or less off the ground.
What's a cup car?
You just can't put a hole in the front and ride out.....you must have a scoop facing the windshield. Just in case anybody had any ideas of just cutting a hole in their hood. I believe it is called an extractor scoop when use it this way.
So you don't think the VG would work on our cars?
What about canards.....I know they work, but do you think they are worth it?
RandomTask
07-15-2005, 01:37 PM
I forgot to mention that vaccum is also a force of lift. Sorry if you mentioned that earlier.... (I guess i really am rusty :( )
A cup car, NASCAR (Nextel Cup)
Its usually $8k an hour for planes and what not, and cars START at $2k an hour for testing.
As far as the hole, it helps marginally, it relieves the pressure buildup from underneath the radiator as air can only vacate that compartment at a certain rate.
No, I don't think a VG would work on our cars. Its too serious of an angle for it to compensate. Basically, in creating these vortex's it kicks the air down, (the downside of a vortex) in doing so, it re-directs the flow downward. We have too much an area for it to comenspate for. Canards could work but it would take a little to get them dialed in.
I think the biggest help on the fiero (and I am desperately trying to remember the name of this device) is to speed the air up underneath the car. In that sense, the biggest amount of downforce can be obtained.
A cup car, NASCAR (Nextel Cup)
Its usually $8k an hour for planes and what not, and cars START at $2k an hour for testing.
As far as the hole, it helps marginally, it relieves the pressure buildup from underneath the radiator as air can only vacate that compartment at a certain rate.
No, I don't think a VG would work on our cars. Its too serious of an angle for it to compensate. Basically, in creating these vortex's it kicks the air down, (the downside of a vortex) in doing so, it re-directs the flow downward. We have too much an area for it to comenspate for. Canards could work but it would take a little to get them dialed in.
I think the biggest help on the fiero (and I am desperately trying to remember the name of this device) is to speed the air up underneath the car. In that sense, the biggest amount of downforce can be obtained.
goatnipples2002
07-15-2005, 04:25 PM
Does the device you are talking about go on the front or the rear.
It sounds like an air dam or chin spoiler. From what many have said it is the best for the front end of the fiero for downforce.
The hole does only flow a certain amount of cfm but if there is an extractor scoop that will help the flow a tremendous amount. The bigger the holr the better, but the radiator compartment of the fiero is only a fraction of the actual hood. If you lift the hood you will see the actual area of the radiator. That is the biggest hole you could make for any improvement. I have future plans to widen the hole on mine as soon as I find a scoop that looks good to me.
How much was your 3800 swap? Was it a kit? Has anything broken or do you drive easy?
It sounds like an air dam or chin spoiler. From what many have said it is the best for the front end of the fiero for downforce.
The hole does only flow a certain amount of cfm but if there is an extractor scoop that will help the flow a tremendous amount. The bigger the holr the better, but the radiator compartment of the fiero is only a fraction of the actual hood. If you lift the hood you will see the actual area of the radiator. That is the biggest hole you could make for any improvement. I have future plans to widen the hole on mine as soon as I find a scoop that looks good to me.
How much was your 3800 swap? Was it a kit? Has anything broken or do you drive easy?
RandomTask
07-17-2005, 08:35 PM
Does the device you are talking about go on the front or the rear.
How much was your 3800 swap? Was it a kit? Has anything broken or do you drive easy?
They don't make kits for the 3800 like they do for SBC's. In a sense, I purchased custom motor mounts, most everything else is/was done by myself. As far as running driving it, when its done, I spent a little over 4k on the swap, I'm going to drive the piss out of it. If I wanted to drive around slow, I would have kept with the 2.5 :) .
How much was your 3800 swap? Was it a kit? Has anything broken or do you drive easy?
They don't make kits for the 3800 like they do for SBC's. In a sense, I purchased custom motor mounts, most everything else is/was done by myself. As far as running driving it, when its done, I spent a little over 4k on the swap, I'm going to drive the piss out of it. If I wanted to drive around slow, I would have kept with the 2.5 :) .
goatnipples2002
07-18-2005, 01:26 AM
There is one company that makes a kit but they charge like 10k for everything including engine. So you did all the wiring and that stuff? Where did you get the mounts? I want to do a 3800sc swap but I only have confidence in a 3.4 swap. I would hope to do a 3.4 turbo when i am done. If you don't mind what's your swap total?
RandomTask
07-18-2005, 10:35 AM
Yeah, I'm doing all my wiring. I purchased my mounts through lowerfierogt on pennocks. Their simliar to the ones WCF sells, but better built (from what I can tell). As far as total... heres a rough idea...
$900 Motor+Wiring Harness+ECM
$300 SPEC Clutch
$300 Getrag 282 Trans
$200 Shift/Select Cables for Trans
$175 ECM Reprom (loyd at www.fastfieros.com)
$175 3.4 Pulley and Belt @ www.intense-racing.com)
$325 Custom Exhaust
$30 AC Pump
$120 MISC Pulley Stuff
$200 Flywheel+Machining
$350 misc stuff (hoses etc)
$100 Fuel Pump
$50 Fuel Tank
$250 Motor Mounts
The wiring can be intimidating but is suprisingly easier than most will make it out to be.
You could slack on some of the parts and cut the cost down, but I wanted to make sure it was getting done right.
$900 Motor+Wiring Harness+ECM
$300 SPEC Clutch
$300 Getrag 282 Trans
$200 Shift/Select Cables for Trans
$175 ECM Reprom (loyd at www.fastfieros.com)
$175 3.4 Pulley and Belt @ www.intense-racing.com)
$325 Custom Exhaust
$30 AC Pump
$120 MISC Pulley Stuff
$200 Flywheel+Machining
$350 misc stuff (hoses etc)
$100 Fuel Pump
$50 Fuel Tank
$250 Motor Mounts
The wiring can be intimidating but is suprisingly easier than most will make it out to be.
You could slack on some of the parts and cut the cost down, but I wanted to make sure it was getting done right.
goatnipples2002
07-18-2005, 02:22 PM
That sounds about the same price as my 3.4 swap that I am planning.
1. 3.4 Pushrod 93-95 Camaro/Firebird Shortblock - NAPA - $870 + $225 Core (I am gonna try to pass the 2.8 off as a 3.4)
2. Spec Stage 3 Clutch - SPEC #SC883 $300.00
3. Fiero remaned Water Pump - AAP- $13.00 w/ $4.00 core
4. 1988 Fiero Flywheel - AAP - $45.00 w/ $35.00 core
5. Complete Gasket Set
6. Comp Cams H260 - Done
7. Starter Relocation Jig Kit - Rodney Dickman - $70.00 w/ shipping
8. New Engine/Tranny mounts maybe poly not sure
9. 86 Timing Cover Set - Oreilly's $20.99
1. 3.4 Pushrod 93-95 Camaro/Firebird Shortblock - NAPA - $870 + $225 Core (I am gonna try to pass the 2.8 off as a 3.4)
2. Spec Stage 3 Clutch - SPEC #SC883 $300.00
3. Fiero remaned Water Pump - AAP- $13.00 w/ $4.00 core
4. 1988 Fiero Flywheel - AAP - $45.00 w/ $35.00 core
5. Complete Gasket Set
6. Comp Cams H260 - Done
7. Starter Relocation Jig Kit - Rodney Dickman - $70.00 w/ shipping
8. New Engine/Tranny mounts maybe poly not sure
9. 86 Timing Cover Set - Oreilly's $20.99
fierangero
07-18-2005, 11:20 PM
i bought a lot of crap from the fiero store, dont remember prices so most of them are rough estimates, some may be off a bit, dont have the catalog in front of me
1986 Fiero GT: $1500
new engine from S&S machine (with heads and cam, all aluminum): $1600
New Radiator: $120
new radiator hoses (5): $50ish
(2) sets of gaskets (ordered full set, but some came with the motor): $150?
Taylor Spark Plug wires: $75
AC Delco Platinum plugs: $30
Trans-go Shift kit: $125
High Flow Oil Pump and Pickup (2 pieces): $150
new high-flow water pump: $170
Fram air filter, oil filter, pcv valve: $30
fiero store Dizzy Cap + rotor: $60?
Accel Fuel Injectors: $225
Kickdown Cable from Pick n' pull (old one was broken) :not sure, havent bought it yet
stock shift knob: $25
hypertech fan switch: $80
hypertech thermostat: $80
MSD Dizzy: $ havent bought it yet, not sure on this one
poly cradle mount bushings: $70?
Ultimate Dogbone: $75
degreaser, misc. fluids, replacement bolts, jacks, hired helper (who never shows up): $725
probably forgot some stuff, but me and my dad have spent bout $5k on it :(
1986 Fiero GT: $1500
new engine from S&S machine (with heads and cam, all aluminum): $1600
New Radiator: $120
new radiator hoses (5): $50ish
(2) sets of gaskets (ordered full set, but some came with the motor): $150?
Taylor Spark Plug wires: $75
AC Delco Platinum plugs: $30
Trans-go Shift kit: $125
High Flow Oil Pump and Pickup (2 pieces): $150
new high-flow water pump: $170
Fram air filter, oil filter, pcv valve: $30
fiero store Dizzy Cap + rotor: $60?
Accel Fuel Injectors: $225
Kickdown Cable from Pick n' pull (old one was broken) :not sure, havent bought it yet
stock shift knob: $25
hypertech fan switch: $80
hypertech thermostat: $80
MSD Dizzy: $ havent bought it yet, not sure on this one
poly cradle mount bushings: $70?
Ultimate Dogbone: $75
degreaser, misc. fluids, replacement bolts, jacks, hired helper (who never shows up): $725
probably forgot some stuff, but me and my dad have spent bout $5k on it :(
goatnipples2002
07-19-2005, 01:30 AM
5K would have gotten you a V8 in there. I thought about going the V8 route but I felt that a v6 turbo would be way faster. That aluminum block will get you some awesome weight savings over the stock 2.8. Where did you get the block? I hope to turbo my fiero in Feb. Oh yeah almost forgot......try to avoid the fiero store because I have found many of the products they offer on summit for way cheaper. Only on some of the hard to get things do I go to them.
fierangero
07-20-2005, 01:57 PM
yeah i realized that, but the CARB smog nazis are not my friend, they would not let me have a v8 :(
84fiero123
07-21-2005, 07:04 AM
just curious any indy fiero owners out there? the indy edition was made like the origonal pace car at indy, areo wise. pace car speeds are over 100 mph if i'm not mistaken around 120 to get the cars up to a resonable speed before the green flag.
goatnipples2002
07-21-2005, 01:22 PM
The indy looks just like the GTs. It has the aero nose just like GTs. Only difference is the ugly ass scoop.
84fiero123
07-22-2005, 09:36 AM
"If your satisfied with the wing or don't drive fast then more power to you but if drive like me (100mph minimum) then you might want to upgrade your wing/spoiler. "
I didn't know they let 10 year olds drive. or did you just fill out your profile wrong.
I didn't know they let 10 year olds drive. or did you just fill out your profile wrong.
goatnipples2002
07-23-2005, 06:27 PM
Are you going to contribute in a productive manner or just post your ignorance?
84fiero123
07-24-2005, 08:23 AM
if you put more down force on the ass end all you are going to get is more lift on the front end.
like i said before the indy edition pace cars ran around 100-120 in the pace laps so if you are experienceing lift on the front end try vents in hood to allow air flow threw radiator that alone should get your front end down some and even keep your engine running cooler. if you have to drive 100+mph.
just remember i saw the other side of 150 mph and was working for general motors before you were born goatnipples. now if you really want to get into a pissing match, go for it but you dont have the experience or knowledge dont get upset when someone catches you in your stupid statements. filling out your profile with the wrong date of birth is a prime example. if you cant even fill out a form properly how can you expect anyone to take you seriously.
i'm done with you! and your stupidity!
like i said before the indy edition pace cars ran around 100-120 in the pace laps so if you are experienceing lift on the front end try vents in hood to allow air flow threw radiator that alone should get your front end down some and even keep your engine running cooler. if you have to drive 100+mph.
just remember i saw the other side of 150 mph and was working for general motors before you were born goatnipples. now if you really want to get into a pissing match, go for it but you dont have the experience or knowledge dont get upset when someone catches you in your stupid statements. filling out your profile with the wrong date of birth is a prime example. if you cant even fill out a form properly how can you expect anyone to take you seriously.
i'm done with you! and your stupidity!
84fiero123
07-24-2005, 09:15 AM
just for everyones info general motors opened its first wind tunnel in 1975 so im sure the design morons used it on the fiero. gm may be made up of idiots in the design department that just got out of design school but they do love useing ever new thing they can get there hands on.
any car built after 75 has gone threw a wind tunnel. if it was a sports car, partly for areodinamic improvements and mostly for mpg improvements.
any car built after 75 has gone threw a wind tunnel. if it was a sports car, partly for areodinamic improvements and mostly for mpg improvements.
goatnipples2002
07-24-2005, 12:43 PM
What stupid statement did I make? Everything I said is accurate. Your last posts repeated what I already said in this thread, so apparently you need to catch up on your reading before you post. You keep talking about the damn profile who cares, I didn't come on here to give my personal info, I came on here to share my knowledge and love of fieros. It makes me wonder about your maturity level if you are so worried about my profile. Look here I'm 25 and I have the knowledge other wise I wouldn't have started this thread. READ the past posts and stop posting out of ignorance. If you can't post anything that hasn't been said or is productive then don't waste our time. If you worked for GM let us here some real stuff not repeated info. The reason I came on here was to learn and share NOT read profiles. I'm too old for a pissing match.
Touch base on some ways to increase stability at 150+mph, I would like to here what you have to say.
If GM put a fiero in the wind tunnel they would have noticed the rear wind caused a huge problem and that the rear wing does jack squat. I don't THINK they cared enough about the fiero to test it in a tunnel. That's not a fact just my opinion.
Touch base on some ways to increase stability at 150+mph, I would like to here what you have to say.
If GM put a fiero in the wind tunnel they would have noticed the rear wind caused a huge problem and that the rear wing does jack squat. I don't THINK they cared enough about the fiero to test it in a tunnel. That's not a fact just my opinion.
84fiero123
07-24-2005, 07:23 PM
you not only cant fill out a form you cant comprehend what you read.
i said i saw the other side of 150 mph before you were born, i didn't say i saw it in a fiero. it was in a 67 firebird in 1973.
and from what i have read your knoledge is from what you have read on the idiotnet. from web sights that are triing to to sell you crap they make.
if you really want to know what will help the fiero rent some time in a tunnel with your fiero, and try some of you ideas.
you are somewhat right about how much they cared about the fiero. it was a base for the lumina, saturns to see how production would work out building a space frame vehicle with plastic panels.
i'm sure a with all of your knoledge of the fiero i would think you would have figured that out.
as far as the wind tunnel goes why do you think they built it? to test cadilacs. it was built at there R & D deptment give them a call maybe they can help you with your project. the number is (586) 986-0885 the fax number is (586) 986-0446
give them a call and see how far your attitude gets you. remember i have been driving for more years than you have been alive. i have been working on car for longer than you have been alive. do you think that just because i'm old i dont know anything? you started this because you wanted to know about areo propertys. i got to admit tho i would love to know where in Nebraska you drive over 100 all the time and get away with it.
i said i saw the other side of 150 mph before you were born, i didn't say i saw it in a fiero. it was in a 67 firebird in 1973.
and from what i have read your knoledge is from what you have read on the idiotnet. from web sights that are triing to to sell you crap they make.
if you really want to know what will help the fiero rent some time in a tunnel with your fiero, and try some of you ideas.
you are somewhat right about how much they cared about the fiero. it was a base for the lumina, saturns to see how production would work out building a space frame vehicle with plastic panels.
i'm sure a with all of your knoledge of the fiero i would think you would have figured that out.
as far as the wind tunnel goes why do you think they built it? to test cadilacs. it was built at there R & D deptment give them a call maybe they can help you with your project. the number is (586) 986-0885 the fax number is (586) 986-0446
give them a call and see how far your attitude gets you. remember i have been driving for more years than you have been alive. i have been working on car for longer than you have been alive. do you think that just because i'm old i dont know anything? you started this because you wanted to know about areo propertys. i got to admit tho i would love to know where in Nebraska you drive over 100 all the time and get away with it.
goatnipples2002
07-25-2005, 08:53 PM
Dude you got a big chip on your shoulder. I never said you were in a fiero when you did 150+mph did I.....NO. I just asked for some insight from you and I got your childish attitude. That website just had the diagram I was trying to show people. So what if they sell shit, they still have some good info pertaining to the basics of aerodynamics and vehicles. I wouldn't buy any of that high priced stuff from them. Actually I read the books that are in my university library. Then I cross reference and check to see if the site I read are accurate. Sorry the tunnel cost way too much for me. I only give attitude to a$$holes that give em first. So what does it matter if you/ve been driving or working on cars longer than I've been alive. That only means your old. I don't think you don't know anything, but you think because I'm young I don't know anything. I don't go off the net or hear say I RESEARCH my own theories and ideas to see if they hold water.
I usually drive 100+mph on the highway. Who said I never get caught.....stop assuming.....you know what they say. I've been caught many times, but I really don't care, that's what make it fun.
Hey man out of all the posts you have yet to say anything informative.....why did you even post here.....to talk $h!t? I'm done with this bickering BS, if you're so old act it then.
Oh yeah forgot I'm so dumb because I don't want the whole world to see my personal info. Since your intent on having all your info on here just post your credit card #s and scan your license.
I usually drive 100+mph on the highway. Who said I never get caught.....stop assuming.....you know what they say. I've been caught many times, but I really don't care, that's what make it fun.
Hey man out of all the posts you have yet to say anything informative.....why did you even post here.....to talk $h!t? I'm done with this bickering BS, if you're so old act it then.
Oh yeah forgot I'm so dumb because I don't want the whole world to see my personal info. Since your intent on having all your info on here just post your credit card #s and scan your license.
84fiero123
07-26-2005, 08:02 AM
Hey man out of all the posts you have yet to say anything informative.....why did you even post here.....to talk $h!t?
so i guess the phone number was of no help or you didn't call? that wasn't trying to help!
So what does it matter if you/ve been driving or working on cars longer than I've been alive. That only means your old.
ya i said the same thing when i was your age, and yes i am old, i have alo made all the same mistakes and probably many more than you have but the difference is i have learned from my mistakes.
I usually drive 100+mph on the highway. Who said I never get caught.....stop assuming.....you know what they say. I've been caught many times, but I really don't care, that's what make it fun.
good keep driving those speeds on the highway, and when you crash into someone else with 2 kids in the car and kill someone and spend ome time in jail talk to me about you just don't care. if you want to drive that fast go to the track!
dont get me wrong i said i have done it but i did it 30 years ago and late at night when there where very few people on the road. and a lot less cars where on the roads back then. and even the cops where cooler back then, one time i actually didn't get a ticket, the cop pulled me over and asked what the hell was under the hood?
but lets think about this; lets say your mother is on the road, and you fly past her at 100+ mph and scare her and the drivers around her. they in turn get in a wreck. how about now, still don't care.
Hey man out of all the posts you have yet to say anything informative.....why did you even post here.....to talk $h!t? I'm done with this bickering BS, if you're so old act it then.
so i guess the phone numbers were of no help? why not call and ask if they did any tests on the fiero?
but you still keep comeing back.
Oh yeah forgot I'm so dumb because I don't want the whole world to see my personal info. Since your intent on having all your info on here just post your credit card #s and scan your license.
i gave enuf info for people to think about what i say as comeing from someone with some knowledge no some one just posting to run up there post numbers.
still in school must be an enginering student?
so i guess the phone number was of no help or you didn't call? that wasn't trying to help!
So what does it matter if you/ve been driving or working on cars longer than I've been alive. That only means your old.
ya i said the same thing when i was your age, and yes i am old, i have alo made all the same mistakes and probably many more than you have but the difference is i have learned from my mistakes.
I usually drive 100+mph on the highway. Who said I never get caught.....stop assuming.....you know what they say. I've been caught many times, but I really don't care, that's what make it fun.
good keep driving those speeds on the highway, and when you crash into someone else with 2 kids in the car and kill someone and spend ome time in jail talk to me about you just don't care. if you want to drive that fast go to the track!
dont get me wrong i said i have done it but i did it 30 years ago and late at night when there where very few people on the road. and a lot less cars where on the roads back then. and even the cops where cooler back then, one time i actually didn't get a ticket, the cop pulled me over and asked what the hell was under the hood?
but lets think about this; lets say your mother is on the road, and you fly past her at 100+ mph and scare her and the drivers around her. they in turn get in a wreck. how about now, still don't care.
Hey man out of all the posts you have yet to say anything informative.....why did you even post here.....to talk $h!t? I'm done with this bickering BS, if you're so old act it then.
so i guess the phone numbers were of no help? why not call and ask if they did any tests on the fiero?
but you still keep comeing back.
Oh yeah forgot I'm so dumb because I don't want the whole world to see my personal info. Since your intent on having all your info on here just post your credit card #s and scan your license.
i gave enuf info for people to think about what i say as comeing from someone with some knowledge no some one just posting to run up there post numbers.
still in school must be an enginering student?
goatnipples2002
07-26-2005, 10:57 AM
Seems like the attitude is going away?
That phone number is cool but as far as this thread is concered I don't feel you have really contributed with your experience. Since you have so much of it share it with us. We come on here to learn and share. I undersatnd the experience factor and the wisdom that comes with age, but not everybody who's older knows everything. Same goes for younger people. I usually test my car and drive 100+mph on sundays at like 2-3am. That way most people are sleep getting ready for the next day. No cops out then either.
I wish I was going to school for engineering, but my major is psychology with a minor in communications. I study enough abour physics and aerodynamics to have a second major in it.
So really what would you do to improve the fiero for 150+mph?
I am about to call right now.
That phone number is cool but as far as this thread is concered I don't feel you have really contributed with your experience. Since you have so much of it share it with us. We come on here to learn and share. I undersatnd the experience factor and the wisdom that comes with age, but not everybody who's older knows everything. Same goes for younger people. I usually test my car and drive 100+mph on sundays at like 2-3am. That way most people are sleep getting ready for the next day. No cops out then either.
I wish I was going to school for engineering, but my major is psychology with a minor in communications. I study enough abour physics and aerodynamics to have a second major in it.
So really what would you do to improve the fiero for 150+mph?
I am about to call right now.
84fiero123
07-26-2005, 12:40 PM
loose the rear wing in just creates down force on the ass end where you don't need it if the front end is picking up. the wing was never ment to work it was put on to make it look good. think back to the 60's and 70's how many cars built back then had wings? other than the super bee. my firebird never had a wing, corvettes never had a wing, gto's never had a wing, and all of these went well over 140+ mph and handled as well as any of these so called newer cars and they weight twice as much.
put a hole in the hood the width of the radiater to alow air flow, build your own scoop. fiberglass is cheep and easy to work with.
pull the spare tire out and put 100 lbs of weight in the well.
now you have less down force on the ass end where you never needed it.
more air flow threw the radiater and hood , to get less lift.
and more weight in the front end wear you need it. you already have enuf in the rear.
my 67 firebird weighed about the same as these fieros and it handle just great at 150, 30 years ago.
put a hole in the hood the width of the radiater to alow air flow, build your own scoop. fiberglass is cheep and easy to work with.
pull the spare tire out and put 100 lbs of weight in the well.
now you have less down force on the ass end where you never needed it.
more air flow threw the radiater and hood , to get less lift.
and more weight in the front end wear you need it. you already have enuf in the rear.
my 67 firebird weighed about the same as these fieros and it handle just great at 150, 30 years ago.
84fiero123
07-26-2005, 12:52 PM
and by the way i have built things all of my life, cars, houses, sewer treatment plant, oil rigs, skyscrapers, and one of the people i really can't stand are enginers. "It works on paper." or "It looked good on paper."
but when it comes to the real world they haven't got a clue, they never touched a wrench, hammer, welder. never worked in the real world which where we build and use these things. so now i see where your attitude comes from. why dont you stop wasteing your parent money a get a job in the real world. or are you afraid to get your hands dirty, or is it beneath you. any engeneer i have ever worked with who was worth a dam spent at least three years in the work force seeing how thing really work. but those who just went to school and then pushed a pencil, or now days a mouse dont have a clue.
and shinks now there is a good buch of useless people. i have never met a shrink who didn't need one more than anyone else i have ever met.
so now i have given you some ideas for your car and yourself.
but when it comes to the real world they haven't got a clue, they never touched a wrench, hammer, welder. never worked in the real world which where we build and use these things. so now i see where your attitude comes from. why dont you stop wasteing your parent money a get a job in the real world. or are you afraid to get your hands dirty, or is it beneath you. any engeneer i have ever worked with who was worth a dam spent at least three years in the work force seeing how thing really work. but those who just went to school and then pushed a pencil, or now days a mouse dont have a clue.
and shinks now there is a good buch of useless people. i have never met a shrink who didn't need one more than anyone else i have ever met.
so now i have given you some ideas for your car and yourself.
goatnipples2002
07-26-2005, 03:37 PM
No not a psychiatrist a psychology.....only difference is I can't write prescriptions. I want to work with troubled kids so they don't have to go through the same shit I went through.
Man you assume alot. My parents don't pay for my college, I do.
I've had jobs in the REAL world. I would rather get payed to talk then break my back. I work on my own car I do all the work myself.
Your wrong about the downforce in the back. You do want that because your ass end could break loose and at high speeds that's not good. You need downforce and reduced lift on both the front and rear. I will be adding a chin spoiler and an elevated wing. I already have an extractor scoop up front. Then I will drop it about 1.5 inches. After that probably some 16s in the front and 17s in the back.
Talked to somebody at the number. That number was some guy that didn't know shit so he transfered me to the main desk. Then I got transfered 3 times then finally talked to a guy for about 20 minutes. He told me that there probably wasn't any info because it has been so long. but If there was he would call, but he probably won't.
He told me to watch the downforce distribution because too much in the front and the back wheels break loose and too much in the back and there will be lift up front. So if you do something up front do it to the back and vice versa.
Man you assume alot. My parents don't pay for my college, I do.
I've had jobs in the REAL world. I would rather get payed to talk then break my back. I work on my own car I do all the work myself.
Your wrong about the downforce in the back. You do want that because your ass end could break loose and at high speeds that's not good. You need downforce and reduced lift on both the front and rear. I will be adding a chin spoiler and an elevated wing. I already have an extractor scoop up front. Then I will drop it about 1.5 inches. After that probably some 16s in the front and 17s in the back.
Talked to somebody at the number. That number was some guy that didn't know shit so he transfered me to the main desk. Then I got transfered 3 times then finally talked to a guy for about 20 minutes. He told me that there probably wasn't any info because it has been so long. but If there was he would call, but he probably won't.
He told me to watch the downforce distribution because too much in the front and the back wheels break loose and too much in the back and there will be lift up front. So if you do something up front do it to the back and vice versa.
84fiero123
07-26-2005, 06:05 PM
again you can't read my 67 firebird weighed in around 3500 lbs. a woping 700 lbs more than the fiero, wow no areodynamics what so ever, no wing or spoilers.
weight is not alway your enemy. 1/4 mile times yes.
high speed runs on the open road weight can have its advantages.all those cars from the 60's weighed in over 3000 lbs and they all handled well over 100 mph.
ok so you didn't get much info from the wind tunnel you oviously love to surf the idiot net find the wind tunnel tests for the car.
goodluck.
weight is not alway your enemy. 1/4 mile times yes.
high speed runs on the open road weight can have its advantages.all those cars from the 60's weighed in over 3000 lbs and they all handled well over 100 mph.
ok so you didn't get much info from the wind tunnel you oviously love to surf the idiot net find the wind tunnel tests for the car.
goodluck.
fierangero
07-26-2005, 09:28 PM
IIRC the GTO "the judge" had a wing...yes cosmetic
and its 1970 Plymouth superBIRD, as well as the 1969 Dodge Daytona Charger, built to go 200mph, NOT cosmetic
yeah im nitpicking, but all you need to deflate a large balloon is a needle :)
and its 1970 Plymouth superBIRD, as well as the 1969 Dodge Daytona Charger, built to go 200mph, NOT cosmetic
yeah im nitpicking, but all you need to deflate a large balloon is a needle :)
84fiero123
07-26-2005, 10:51 PM
but the dodges where made for raceing and going well over 160 mph.
:newburn: POP
:newburn: POP
84fiero123
07-27-2005, 08:10 AM
Goatnipples. "I've had jobs in the REAL world. I would rather get payed to talk then break my back. I work on my own car I do all the work myself."
typical , sorry dude i like working with my hands i love being able to tell my kids, hey thats dadys car, i helped build that, or i helped build that building or skyscraper, i find great joy in the fact that i can build and fix things that help people in the real world. you say you came here to help people and learn so far lately all i have seen you post is on this post, and then those were just bitching at me. when was the last time you helped someone here by ans. a question? look at my past posts i have ans. many peoples questions, with good ans. what have you done to help someone else?
typical , sorry dude i like working with my hands i love being able to tell my kids, hey thats dadys car, i helped build that, or i helped build that building or skyscraper, i find great joy in the fact that i can build and fix things that help people in the real world. you say you came here to help people and learn so far lately all i have seen you post is on this post, and then those were just bitching at me. when was the last time you helped someone here by ans. a question? look at my past posts i have ans. many peoples questions, with good ans. what have you done to help someone else?
goatnipples2002
07-27-2005, 04:21 PM
On this forum there are more people asking Qs then people posting answers. And most of the Qs aren't in depth or as technical as Pennock's. I recently started posting in PFF but I have been studying the PFF since early last year. I feel that PFF is a better forum, but I still post here from time to time.
I really don't care about building anything except my car. You would rather brag about what you helped build I would rather take part in making a better environment for our children to grow up in. Everybody has their own personal goals in life just because I am not you doesn't mean I am less of a hard worker. I get my hands dirty on my car.
I really don't care what you think of me or my posts I don't have a damn thing to prove to you. How have you helped this thread? As stated before you only came on here to hijack the thread and talk shit. Grow up.....post all you want talking to you is a waste of time.
I really don't care about building anything except my car. You would rather brag about what you helped build I would rather take part in making a better environment for our children to grow up in. Everybody has their own personal goals in life just because I am not you doesn't mean I am less of a hard worker. I get my hands dirty on my car.
I really don't care what you think of me or my posts I don't have a damn thing to prove to you. How have you helped this thread? As stated before you only came on here to hijack the thread and talk shit. Grow up.....post all you want talking to you is a waste of time.
84fiero123
08-11-2005, 09:49 AM
just one last thing before i forget. :smokin:
the wing on the fiero is just for looks, it doesnt need down force on the ass end, the engine is there, the wings on the 60's cars had the engine in the front and needed down force in the back the fiero doesn't.the weight of the engine is enuf to hold the ass end down. just as the weight of the engine was enuf on the 60's cars was enuf to hold the front ends down. :biggrin:
:sly: if you are concerned about front end lift the holes in the hood should be more than enuf to keep the front end down, buy eliminating the upforce created by the airflow threw the radiater. areodynamics of the wing are not an issue. :nono:
with the fieros wedge shape it has almost as good a wind slip as the vette.
and just for goatnips info i have been on pennocks for info and help for longer so kid nuthin against you or your age but grow up and get a life.
the wing on the fiero is just for looks, it doesnt need down force on the ass end, the engine is there, the wings on the 60's cars had the engine in the front and needed down force in the back the fiero doesn't.the weight of the engine is enuf to hold the ass end down. just as the weight of the engine was enuf on the 60's cars was enuf to hold the front ends down. :biggrin:
:sly: if you are concerned about front end lift the holes in the hood should be more than enuf to keep the front end down, buy eliminating the upforce created by the airflow threw the radiater. areodynamics of the wing are not an issue. :nono:
with the fieros wedge shape it has almost as good a wind slip as the vette.
and just for goatnips info i have been on pennocks for info and help for longer so kid nuthin against you or your age but grow up and get a life.
goatnipples2002
08-11-2005, 11:11 PM
just one last thing before i forget. :smokin:
the wing on the fiero is just for looks, it doesnt need down force on the ass end, the engine is there, the wings on the 60's cars had the engine in the front and needed down force in the back the fiero doesn't.the weight of the engine is enuf to hold the ass end down. just as the weight of the engine was enuf on the 60's cars was enuf to hold the front ends down. :biggrin:
:sly: if you are concerned about front end lift the holes in the hood should be more than enuf to keep the front end down, buy eliminating the upforce created by the airflow threw the radiater. areodynamics of the wing are not an issue. :nono:
with the fieros wedge shape it has almost as good a wind slip as the vette.
and just for goatnips info i have been on pennocks for info and help for longer so kid nuthin against you or your age but grow up and get a life.
Okay whatever let's keep this thread about info not your bickering.
the wing on the fiero is just for looks, it doesnt need down force on the ass end, the engine is there, the wings on the 60's cars had the engine in the front and needed down force in the back the fiero doesn't.the weight of the engine is enuf to hold the ass end down. just as the weight of the engine was enuf on the 60's cars was enuf to hold the front ends down. :biggrin:
:sly: if you are concerned about front end lift the holes in the hood should be more than enuf to keep the front end down, buy eliminating the upforce created by the airflow threw the radiater. areodynamics of the wing are not an issue. :nono:
with the fieros wedge shape it has almost as good a wind slip as the vette.
and just for goatnips info i have been on pennocks for info and help for longer so kid nuthin against you or your age but grow up and get a life.
Okay whatever let's keep this thread about info not your bickering.
84fiero123
08-12-2005, 12:44 AM
"Okay whatever let's keep this thread about info not your bickering."
try to set your childishness asside and read what i write.the wing was for looks you have the engine in the back for weight to hold the assend down.
and if you want some info try this place
http://www.northfloridafieros.homestead.com/InterestingFieroFacts.html
try to set your childishness asside and read what i write.the wing was for looks you have the engine in the back for weight to hold the assend down.
and if you want some info try this place
http://www.northfloridafieros.homestead.com/InterestingFieroFacts.html
goatnipples2002
08-13-2005, 02:16 AM
Very insightful article.
And what old cars NEED is to be dropped.
And what old cars NEED is to be dropped.
84fiero123
08-13-2005, 08:00 AM
Very insightful article.
And what old cars NEED is to be dropped.
explane old cars need to be droped?
And what old cars NEED is to be dropped.
explane old cars need to be droped?
goatnipples2002
08-14-2005, 02:31 AM
Well they seem to sit way too high up. I should have said lowered.
84fiero123
08-14-2005, 08:49 AM
they didnt need to be lower to do 150 mph or better, lowering is a style issue not an issue with speed, just like the wing on the fiero is a style issue and has nothing to do with aerodynics on the fiero, the wing was put on there to get yuppies to buy the car cause it looked cool. i have said this repeatedly the wing was never meant to work just get yuppies to think it looked cool.
lowering a car gets you into trouble if you intend on driving it on the streets. as it is when you pull these things up to a parking spot with a block or head into a curb you scrape the nose. and driveways and gravel roads are a nightmare with the fiero as it is never mind lowering it .
the same goes for the older cars, my firebird had 6"
of ground clearance and that was a bitch on country roads at high speeds. you want to make your fiero look cool or what ever it is kids call it now do it to your car but dont expect the run it on the street without damageing it.
lowering a car gets you into trouble if you intend on driving it on the streets. as it is when you pull these things up to a parking spot with a block or head into a curb you scrape the nose. and driveways and gravel roads are a nightmare with the fiero as it is never mind lowering it .
the same goes for the older cars, my firebird had 6"
of ground clearance and that was a bitch on country roads at high speeds. you want to make your fiero look cool or what ever it is kids call it now do it to your car but dont expect the run it on the street without damageing it.
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