extreme downforce vehicle

high altitude racing, ie, thinner air, will require faster cars with tremendous downforce capability. here is a first idea of such a vehicle:

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/55975mars_car_concept_A.jpg

That is really cool!
I like the concept too.
Downforce is cool to think about.
I think I read that f1 cars have so much of it
that they could drive upside down at full speed and
stay stuck to the road.
Has the look of a mix between a speed12 and
a jetboat! I love the texture of it. I wish I could
get that paper tooth look with photoshop.
Is it markers and charcoal?
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/grantrl78/Speed12.jpg
kind of like this one :) That other TVR is frightening :evillol:
What were they smoking?

what is a speed12?

the drawing is all marker. outlines are in pencil.

I really like the drawing!!! I also like the way the wing is added to the car!!! nice shapes!!! And I think he means a TVR Speed 12??

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v258/Exotic118/My%20TVRs/Speed%2012/TVR_Speed_12-02.jpg

I think I read that f1 cars have so much of it
that they could drive upside down at full speed and
stay stuck to the road.

true, how fun would that be!

bonz, the perspective is a bit off at the front, and that spoiler looks like it would be huge, if you do another it be cool to see you do one all gilled out (the cat that makes the mclaren joked that all super cars had at least 50 gills, so they put like 62 on theirs!)

that tvr is nuts, gotta love assymetrical cars...

yep. i fixed the front a bit. less distracting.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/55975mars_car_concept_A1.jpg

the rear spoiler is intentionally huge to grab thinner air at higher velocity.

here are some more views and ideas for it:
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/55975lowrez_marscar_A.jpg
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/55975lowrez_marscar_B.jpg

i'm thinking ion propulsion.

Hi Bonz,
Cool drawing. Ion propulsion sounds great.
Would the car need some front down force to = the back DF?

Remember those ungle Contachs w/ a wing on the front (some)?

F1 Cars generate enough down force to drive upside down at around 100MPH. Crazy!

yes, al. it will need some front downforce. already, it has that, as the air is routed under the car at the fascia inlet, and is low to the ground. but...

the thing about front wings, is that they cannot be placed too low to the ground; they are tricky --too low a wing and it disallows for correct low pressure flow along the entire underside/ venturi "throat" of the car. too low a front wing will prematurely drive the accelerated underbody air into the ground, creating an unwanted vortex/ turbulence.

many f1 and indy cars in the 1980s had overenthusiastic front wings placed on, causing an effect called "porposing." it would create unstable handling as driving conditions ever changed around the track.

but i am developing this car gradually. i will add some exaggerated front stuff and play around with that. thanks for that comment, al.

for this project, i must conceptualize a thin/high atmospheric state, about .01 of earth's sea-level pressure. the car needs to grab as much of that thin air as possible. this is done with increased surface area of the downforce elements, as well as extremely high velocities (moving the air faster), hence the ion propulsion idea. these cars need to be nearly supersonic, around 1 Mach, at 30% earth's gravity.

here is something i just threw out suddenly:
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/55975lowrez_marscar_3.jpg

Ion propulsion?

Remember, those things have TINY amounts of thrust. Not enough to make the car move, never mind at high speeds. The only reasons space probes can reach extremely high speeds with them is because there is no gravity or atmosphere to slow them down, and even then it takes quite a while to build up speed.

Even at high altitudes, it would barely budge.

Maybe liquid-fuel rockets...

Or ramjets if you can go fast enough... And are crazy enough... :grinyes:

Ion propulsion?

Remember, those things have TINY amounts of thrust. Not enough to make the car move, never mind at high speeds. The only reasons space probes can reach extremely high speeds with them is because there is no gravity or atmosphere to slow them down, and even then it takes quite a while to build up speed.

Even at high altitudes, it would barely budge.

Maybe liquid-fuel rockets...

Or ramjets if you can go fast enough... And are crazy enough... :grinyes:

yes. that is presently the case. i went to a JPL tour once, and they had an ion propulsion system, ignited, on display, behind a thick glass shield. you could look inside there and see the blue glow of the exhaust end.

for example, Deep Space 1, the first space probe to use the technology successfully, used a xenon gas supply as the "accelerant" :

"The fuel used by Deep Space 1's ion engine is xenon, a gas that is more than 4 times heavier than air. When the ion engine is running, electrons are emitted from a hollow tube called a cathode. These electrons enter a magnet-ringed chamber, where they strike the xenon atoms. The impact of an electron on a xenon atom knocks away one of xenon's 54 electrons. This results in a xenon atom with a positive charge, or what is known as an ion."

"Now the ion engines use only a very small amount of xenon at a time. That means that the thrust is very very low. If you rest a piece of paper on your hand, the paper pushes on your hand about as hard as the ion engine pushes on the spacecraft! It may take 4 days or more just to use up 1 kilogram (about 2 pounds) of xenon. Unlike chemical engines, which can be operated for minutes, or in extreme cases, for an hour or so, ion engines can be operated for years. The effect of the gentle thrust slowly builds up, eventually attaining speeds far beyond the reach of conventional propellants.

Deep Space 1, using less than 74 kg (163 pounds) of xenon, accelerated by about 4.3 kilometers/second (9600 miles/hour). This is greater than any spacecraft has ever been able to change its speed. (DS1 could have achieved still higher velocity, but mission controllers had objectives other than just going faster and faster, so they did not operate it to attain the maximum speed possible.) It thrusted for 678 days, far far longer than any propulsion system had ever been operated. [Dawn will surpass both of these records, and later missions using ion propulsion will do even more.]"

solid fuel for racing applications is out of the question. it is too heavy and bulky. ion propulsion is far simpler and lighter and more powerful, ultimately.

in a lighter gravity situation, weight plays less of a hindrance. yet the car's body must not become it's own hindrance even with lighter gravity.

and because it is the amount/ rate of the xenon gas' conversion to charged particles (that are attracted, once charged, by electromagnets posited at the rear of the ion chamber, shooting the +charged xenon atoms out the back, ie, "exhaust"), this amount/ rate can be amplified. this particle amplifier + xenon ion engine will be, then, a "hybrid" engine. so instead of taking weeks to build up enough thrust, it can be throttled in nanoseconds.

the payloads of "xenon" (or whatever gas is used), will, then be rapidly depleted, unlike Deep Space 1. so, when running near empty, can be "switched out" with a fresh canister as the car goes in to pit. at this time, too, the tires can be changed.

at this point, my thinking leads me to ion propulsion. albeit modified/ hot rodded.

Once again the mighty bonz humbles me with his superior intellectual capabilities :worshippy

mshk, i need the food for thought, buddy. keep the ideas coming. you helped me think through the idea.

um... Will there be a secondary engine for low-speed manuvering?

or could there be a turbo-prob like device that could somehow transfer thrust from the Ion engine to the wheels for cornering?

um... Will there be a secondary engine for low-speed manuvering?

or could there be a turbo-prob like device that could somehow transfer thrust from the Ion engine to the wheels for cornering?

that is a very good question.

hmm. yes. there will need to be a means to generate power to the wheels distinct from the ion power. i would guess at this stage it would need to be some form of a very hi-performance electric set up.

i want the vehicle, then, to be capable of AWD, similar to, but beyond, the GT-R's ATTESA system. i am thinking, as i type this, that each wheel will have it's own individual electric motor, maybe even having each wheel itself being an actual driving motor. this will eliminate the need to create a transmission/ transaxle/ half-shaft/ VLSD type of mechanical design, thus eliminating gears.

another huge issue is tire compound design. at speeds of over 700 mph, there will need to be a tire, as well as a rotating assembly design, that will not disintegrate. i have thought that the vehicle can actually retract the wheels and hover over longer, faster, straightaway sections of track to eliminate the need to constantly have tires on the ground. the 30% earth gravity will allow for distance gliding at the driver's descretion:

when a certain velocity is reached, higher or lower, the wheels can either retract or emerge, necessitating a vigilance when driving, similar to anticipating gear shifts. perhaps the wheels can remain as they are, but are covered up by a movable/ retractable aeroshell for each individual wheel.

curved sections of track will need to be extremely raked/ bermed to keep the car glued to the surface. i imagine some curved sections of track reaching a totally vertical "centrifuge" type of angle. this will create fantastic g-forces upon the drivers.

in this scenario, the driver(s) will be more like pilots.

mshk, your ideas are very helpful to me. i enjoy this meeting of the minds. :wink:

lol thanks

Wouldn't it be hard for the vehicle to hover at speed with all that downforce?

something else i just thought of as well:

the cars will need to be shielded 1)from UV radiation entering the thin atmospehre, and 2) they will need to be super-sheilded for the race track for close-quarter racing -- a car caught in another car's exhaust wake of ions, essentially radiation, will be extremely harsh.

lol thanks

Wouldn't it be hard for the vehicle to hover at speed with all that downforce?

Could the wings and spoilers be retractable and have ion propulsion pods that rotate downwards like a tilt-rotor aircraft?

And also:

why have wheels at all? If the need for turning comes up, the speed of the vehicle combined with some moving airodynamic doodads should be able to allow the vehicle to turn fine...

Could the wings and spoilers be retractable and have ion propulsion pods that rotate downwards like a tilt-rotor aircraft?

And also:

why have wheels at all? If the need for turning comes up, the speed of the vehicle combined with some moving airodynamic doodads should be able to allow the vehicle to turn fine...

the primary downforce elements, namely the front and rear spoiler, are on electric actuators that adjust the angles of the surfaces: just like on an aircraft. the rear wing, for example, pitched low at the front, then rising at angle up to the rear, creates downforce --the aerofoil is thus "upside down" --the low pressure is created in that setup below the wing.

when the pitch is reversed, with the angle going high in the front, to low in the rear, creates lift, as flaps on an aircraft do.

i believe the R33GTR has such an adjustable rear wing (except it's range of movement is limited for downforce only).

wheels: i did consider having the craft being totally off the ground, like a land-speeder. an engineer even suggested this design as well. but i like the look of a traditional race car with wheels. and i want to impart an element of traditional wheels-on-the-ground racing dynamics, if not only as one phase of the race experience. ie, i want the cars to be lined up at the start, with a pace car, pit, and go to the winner's circle on 4 wheels.

at top speed, probably, it will be a hovercraft, like a hydrofoil jet boat.

mshk, i literally banged this out in ten minutes. it shows the spoilers in "lift" positioin, with covers over the wheels, and side wings that may emerge to promote low gliding.

the low gravity will facilitate gliding anyway, with side wings added to provide a bit of low-ground stability:

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/55975lowrez_marscar_4.jpg

Wow, that looks great
Kinda like a star-wars inspired fighter jet / speed boat

well, I can't think of any more ideas at the moment...

Wow, that looks great
Kinda like a star-wars inspired fighter jet / speed boat

well, I can't think of any more ideas at the moment...
thanks for props.

yes. i cannot disassociate this idea from "star wars" no matter what i do, even though the implementation of the idea will not at all resemble star wars. all the more reason, though, to not have the vehicle be exclusively a "land speeder" that only hovers. i want to get as far away from star wars as possible, in design and feel.

again, thank you, mshk.

What about side gas steer thrusters to help with the mid-speed turns when the wheels are off the track, but the full effects of the areodynamics aren't inplay for steering.

You' re developing a very interesting concept.
Great sketch work.

What about side gas steer thrusters to help with the mid-speed turns when the wheels are off the track, but the full effects of the areodynamics aren't inplay for steering.

You' re developing a very interesting concept.
Great sketch work.
hmm. that is extremely interesting. you mean a steering assist? like horizontal "course correction" thrusters on the sides? i like that idea. the thrusters could be actuated in real-time via steering wheel sensors. it would be as if the front "wheels" were turning in response to the driver's input, but, instead would be side-mounted thrusters that control right and left steering direction creating perpendicular thrust.

wheels-to-the-ground could also be used in tandem with the thrusters to lessen the lateral g-forces upon the suspension when cornering, too. it would be like a "Super Thrust Traction Control System (STTCS)" --your idea has opened my mind up. thank you, blip.

here is another version:
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/55975lowrez_marscar_5.jpg

It's getting professional now. Interesting to see that progress.

It's getting professional now. Interesting to see that progress.
thanks, knight. i'm glad you see it that way.

i was greenlit today to be the chief designer on this project.

i will be posting more, ie, stuff that i am allowed to show, later.;)

another version:
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/55975lowrez_marscar_6.jpg

Congrats on the project--is this something for TV or film?

The design look futuristic, but retains an air of believability.

Congrats on the project--is this something for TV or film?

The design look futuristic, but retains an air of believability.
graphic novel to be pitched for film.

thanks very much for the comment about it being believable and futuristic.
that is the exact premise i am going on. it needs to be that. it is difficult to
keep it that way, too. in fact, designing cars is difficult. it is easy to make a design look stupid or boring. i have more respect for car designers now. and anyone who attempts to do it.

:eek2:im gonna get drawing some of these:eek2:

have fun. collaboration is the root of inspiration.

What a great project. Now I wonder how you will handle the competitors?
To me that will be a very big challenge
Will the race series rules be like NASCAR and it’s a “template car” race series with just graphics/ paint to separate the teams or
more like the FIA GT series with all-out racers that are based on productions vehicles?

Who are the manufacturers/teams? Traditional auto companies, or because of the high altitude environment,
maybe the aerospace companies are involved, like Boeing, Aerospatiale, Airbus, Lockheed, SUKHOI…etc.
Or, even a hybrid company combining both. Take the F-117 or SU-39 design features and morph it with a TVR, Noble M-12 or Ferrari 575 GTC to make a new kind of land-based vehicle.

This should be very interesting to watch as you develop this concept of a potential future for “vehicle” racing.
Thanks for sharing what you can of this project.

make real cars (production), as these roads in the sky are in future films.

i cannot really reveal anymore about specifics. i'd face legal trouble.
it is a big challenge. and very difficult.
thank you, blip for your kind words.