Going About It All Wrong?

Hi,

Maybe some of you have seen my other post. If not, I’m debating what car to get for my first “real” street worthy car. Anyways, my main problem right now is whether to get RWD, FWD, or AWD. I know that the obvious decision is to get a RWD or AWD but please hear me out.

When I do race (More like screwing around) with my friends, I highly doubt we would ever be going over 80 MPH (Yes, were pussy’s but we actually want to live, so sue me. :)). Since were not going to be very serious I was wondering if RWD/AWD is very important as getting good gas mileage is even more important to me as this is my daily driver. But also, is FWD that bad? I've seen a picture of a Nissan Sentra SE-R beating a WRX so it makes me think twice about whether to get FWD or RWD/AWD. I mean think about it, th extra money that I don't spend on gas for a FWD (Sure it may not be that much but it's something.) I could be spending on upgrades.

So, for my type of driving that I will be doing, do you think it’s really worth it for RWD/AWD? What do you think will suit me best? Please, I know that most of you will say go RWD/AWD because it’s better starts, and I know it is, but the gas mileage is very important to me.

Sorry for being so anal and sorry for the essay. Thanks in advance!

If you really want to go fast, and feel safer doing it, go AWD/RWD. I've been 115 in my car, then 115 in my friends FWD Lexus, and it felt like two very, very different worlds. Hell, I've been far past the 120 mark in my car, and felt safe. Shit, when I had my car at 155, I felt totally in control, which, when going fast, is a big key. It may be the car, maybe the drivetrain, I dunno, but I have always felt more in controll and more stable going fast in a RWD/AWD car. If you plan on really racing later on, not just messing around with freinds, your also starting at a major disadvantage. I have owned both FWD and RWD, and driven AWD cars, and personally, I will never own a FWD car again. Regardless of fuel economy/style/whatever. But thats just me, and I'll be stepping off my soapbox now.

Okay, thanks. Since were not even going to be breaking 100 (We migh, but highly unlikely.) do you think the unstabability would become a factor? Anyone else have an opinion?

Well, my buds lexus felt wobbly at 115, and my Rav4 felt hella wobbly past 80...but it really depends on the car.

If you're just puttering around with your friends from stoplight to stoplight, and you don't plan on aggressive driving, sanctioned racing, etc. don't worry about it. Get a FWD car and be happy with it. Don't let the RWD purists or AWD junkies (me included) talk you out of what you want.

Just a note, however, there are RWD cars out there that will get decent mileage. A miata (don't laugh) can be made quick, MR2's are ok on gas, just do your research.

And launching a FWD car from a light generally results in the driver fighting wheelhop, torque steer, etc. till he gets moving. This can be improved with modifications to your suspension, but it doesn't sound like you're that serious.




Whatever, get a Honda and be done with it.

Okay, thanks guy. Yeah, most of our racing will just be stoplight to stoplight, maybe even shorter.

I have been looking at the MX-5 but I'm not a huge fan of the super small body. Also, I would get an MR2 but I've just heard of way to many spinouts and crashes to get one. I'm too scared.

Any other opinions are welcome!

See my post here. (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=3187617)

:wink:

so you're aiming towards saving some money on your gas mileage but want to spend the saved money on upgrades. Well I'm thinking upgrades aren't going to help your gas mileage so I'm not really sure what direction you want to go here.

An SE-R taking a WRX is very possible but believe me when I tell you that the SE-R was not stock. The more power you desire, the more gas mileage you sacrifice so i guess we need to find a little in betweener for you.

Read Red's post, its pretty good and listen to the new guy, go with what you want.


Edit - just to squeeze in a last bit of advice here. Since you are planning on just going from light to light then AWD is obviously the best choice for those lower speed sprints as cars like the eclipse gsx (same as eagle talon tsi awd) and subaru wrx tend to get up to 60 a little quicker than the others on the launch. Stock both cars are turbocharged, net around 210-222hp and get pretty good gas mileage. The good thing about a turbocharged car is you can have that speed when you want it but you can also shift low to keep yourself out of the spooling range of the turbo and get pretty damn good mileage... At least, this is what I know from my experience.

By no means would I prefer fwd from a performance standpoint. I will however IMHO tell you that FWD or AWD will be more safe if you plan on messing around the street.

In the rain you won't spin out at easily or in taking high speed turns. In my experience I've had my rear end step out a bit when going around a corner, and it's easy to control, and get back on track.

I've never driven Rwd, but I assume it would have been much harder to have brought it back as there is more oversteer, and less traction (it would seem) in the drive wheels..

I say all of this because I was once racing my friend, around a long turn, and he spun out while I stayed fine. I'm sure it was largely in part to his bad driving, but still I think FWD or even better AWD will keep you in more forgiving hands.

You can definantley have fun driving, a FWD car. Remember once you feel you've exhausted yourself with fwd move up.

Okay, thanks for all of the help guys. Sorry about the confusion for the gas mileage comment. I know that I won't be getting good gas mileage when I'm racing but when I'm just cruising I was hoping to get around 23 - 25 MPG (Obviously the higher the better.).

RaidenKing - Yeah, I knew the SE-R wasn't stock (I believe it was turboed or something) I was just bringing it up to show where I'm getting the idea that FWD isn't that bad. I thought maybe I was thinking about it wrong or something and that you guys could maybe straighten me out.

Anyways, I've been looking at some FWD and AWD cars. Here's a mini list of what I've been looking at so far:

- Pontiac Grandprix GTP
- 1993-1997 Nissan Altima (Heard these are fast with a KA24DE in them.)
- VW Jetta 1.8T
- Mitsu Galant VR4 (Not sure how the VR4 affects the gas mileage but I know the normal Galant's get good gas mileage.)
- 1995ish Subaru Impreza AWD
- Mazda MX6
- Early to mid 90's Toyota Celica
- Acura Integra GSR

Out of these which do you think would be the best for me? I would get the Z28 but I've read (On fueleconomy.gov) that it only gets around 20 MPG, I was hoping for a little bit more. Anyways, I'm starting to ramble now so I'll shutup.

Thank you!

Well sorry to burst your bubble but most of those cars dont get but a little over 20mpg. If you could find a galant vr4 buy it, and hold on to it like the golden ticket from charlie and the chocolate factory.

I think I'll probably be going the FWD route for a couple of reasons. First of all, gas mileage is generally better with FWD. Secondly, the RWD cars that I were planning on getting were more sporty cars so insurance would be up. And finally, I know that FWD cars can get to something like a 13 second quarter mile (Probably the fastest I would ever need to go.), which is fine for me. If I was going to be pushing it to go harder though, I would probably get a RWD because if I recall correctly, it would be easier to get a RWD to run 11s than it would a FWD. Is my thinking correct?

Anyways, with that out of the way, I've looked at quite a few cars yet I still can't decide which one. Here are the cars that I've been looking at:

- Nissan Sentra
- Toyota Celica (90's Model)
- Acura Integra
- Nissan Altima (1993-1997)
- Nissan 200SX SE-R
- Mazda MX6

Are there any here that jump out at you right away that you wouldn't recommend? Are there any that you would recommend? Why?

Thank you!

All things being equal, FWD will always be slower off the launch.

As for gas milage, my 88 MR2 gets 33-37 mpg and it is RWD. Hyde, RWD MR2 370+ rwhp, car gets 25+ mpg. My 91 non-turbo MR2 (Jekyl) gets about 32 mpg.

Man, this is killing me. I would love to get the MR2. It's fast, affordable, and gets good gas mileage. But there are just so many things keeping me from getting one:

1) Mid Engine: When it starts to spin, exceptionally tricky to recover. When it lets go, it gets ugly really fast.
2) Rear Wheel Drive: Go into a corner too fast and you can’t brake or lift off the throttle to save it. In fact, you have to either keep a steady foot on the gas, or even give it more throttle to keep the car from spinning This means you actually have to try to go faster when you are about to lose it from going too fast in order to keep the car from spinning.
3) Short Wheel Base: Little to no warning when you have exceeded the car’s limits.
4) McPherson struts: Car does not like bumps or surface irregularities mid corner. Hit a pothole or uneven surface and watch the tail step out of line.
5) Turbo: Lag/Boost is very tricky to modulate – especially on a modified car. If you need extra power to exit a corner and the turbo is not spooled because you let the revs drop or are in the wrong gear = you’re screwed. Hit boost early to mid corner when you’re close to the tire’s limits of adhesion = bye-bye.

That was copied from MR2oc.com just to let you guys know. Anyways, JekylandHyde, do you agree with these guys or do you think that the MR2 can make a good first car if you know your limits and stay within them?

Thank you!

I basically had an MR2 as my first car and I only wrecked 6 of them until I got it right :D

Oh, only 6. That's not that bad. I guess I'll get the MR2 for sure. :) No thanks, I don't have enough money for 6 MR2's...

So back on topic, are there any cars that I listed earlier that you guys would recommend? Thank you.

i can tell you what i wouldn't recommend. that is any toyota celica. those cars are rubbish and has no power potential in the future. they use the 2.2 liter camry 4 banger. that gives you a hint of what kind of aftermarket it has.

i would go for the SE-R. the SR20DE is a very nice engine.

[QUOTE=TatII]i can tell you what i wouldn't recommend. that is any toyota celica. those cars are rubbish and has no power potential in the future. they use the 2.2 liter camry 4 banger. that gives you a hint of what kind of aftermarket it has. /QUOTE]

not the all-trac... awd/turbo toyota with the mr2 engine. just hard to find.

and the n/a 2nd gen mr2's have the 2.2 as well...

Okay, thanks. Any other opinions? Does the G20 have the SR20DE too though? One of the main reasons I'm asking is because I haven't seen very many 200SX SE-R's for sale. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough...

You should be looking for an SE-R sentra. :p The G20 has the sr20de but it is heavier, and costs more although a much better everyday car.

Okay, thanks. So, aren't the Sentra SE-R and the 200SX SE-R the same car? Are there any major differences?

Also, if anyone else feels that there is a better car in my list besides the Sentra or 200SX please tell me because I would like to hear all the sides of the argument.

Thank you.

Edit: Also, I was doing some research and I read that Audi/VW 1.8T's are pretty fast if you "chip" it. Could someone please explain to me what this means? Also, would you recommend an Audi/VW 1.8T for me?

Bump.

Edit: Also, I was doing some research and I read that Audi/VW 1.8T's are pretty fast if you "chip" it. Could someone please explain to me what this means? Also, would you recommend an Audi/VW 1.8T for me?

As a BMW owner, I can say that if I wasn't in a Bimmer, I would most definately be in an Audi. The 1.8Ts, like most turboed cars, are detuned from the factory. If you send in your ECU to Neuspeed, they will retune it and send it back, and you can get major HP gains out of that alone. Neuspeed is actaully really well priced, and it doesn't take to much work to get power out of those 1.8Ts. The only thing I don't like is that you have to send the ECU in, so your sans car for a short period. I think they pay for shipping though.

A cousin of mine has a chip, exhaust, intake, an aftermarket BOV, short throw and some other small goodies on his Audi A4 1.8T (I'll ask him for the full list next time I talk to him), and when I rode in it/drove it, it fucken moved.

i can tell you what i wouldn't recommend. that is any toyota celica. those cars are rubbish and has no power potential in the future. they use the 2.2 liter camry 4 banger. that gives you a hint of what kind of aftermarket it has.
Uhm ... there are a lot of different Celicas out there.

Including the All-Trac which is AWD and has the turbo engine (3SGTE) that is in Hyde. I assure you, there are seriously fast Celicas out there.

Uhm ... there are a lot of different Celicas out there.

Including the All-Trac which is AWD and has the turbo engine (3SGTE) that is in Hyde. I assure you, there are seriously fast Celicas out there.

i beat ya to it (read my post lol)

Okay, thanks guys. Do you think that if I can find a VW/Audi 1.8T for fairly cheap I should go for it? Also, how much MPG does the 1.8T get since I'm assuming they differ from the standard model.

I definately like the look of the 90's Celica too so if you guys think that's a good option that's also looking good.

Okay, thanks guys. Do you think that if I can find a VW/Audi 1.8T for fairly cheap I should go for it? Also, how much MPG does the 1.8T get since I'm assuming they differ from the standard model.

The standard model is the 1.8T, it is the lowest model from Audi/VDub. I would definately go for it if you could, as they can be made very fast for fairley cheap. And if you stay of the pedal durring every day driving, you'll get decent miliage.

Wait, so like the normal Volkswagen Jetta is the 1.8T? I thought it actually had to say 1.8T to be a 1.8T. :) Anyways, how much would it cost to "chip" it? Also can you chip and VW? Or only certain models? If so, which ones?

Thank you.

Well...unless it says VR6 or other wise, the standard VDub/Audi you'll find has a four banger, 1.8T in it. To find chip costs, go to Neuspeed's website, and just select whatever moddel your looking at.

Okay, thanks. Sorry for the really stupid question but I can't seem to find their chips. I looked at their catalog section but didn't find much. All I find was this but it didn't really help much:

http://www.neuspeed.com/installations/installations.asp?cat=11&ttl=Engine&ltype=ns_euro

Do you recommend that I go with an Audi or VW? Also, which model do you guys recommend? I think I may go with VW as they seem to be cheaper and they get better gas mileage. If I'm wrong please tell me.

So, could someone please tell me what "chipping" does? I'm still kind of unclear on that. I researched a little and didn't come up with much.

Also, I should get the same gas mileage as the stock model, right? I just want to clarify.

Thank you and I'm really sorry for all of the questions guys!

Well, with this specific application, it allows the 1.8T to run more boost=more power. Personally, I would rather go with Audi only because the minor style differences look better IMHO, but if you can find teh VDub cheaper, go with it. You will probably get the same miliage, hell, maybe better, as long as you arent flooring it all over the place. Just got off the phone with my cousin, he has an '03 A4 AWD with the chip, exhuast, extreme turbo intake, and power pully from Neuspeed. He also upped the turbo (not sure to what), a short throw, and a Turbo back exhaust ("custom" job), some brand of EBC, FMIC, and some other goodies (like spark plugs and high ass octane gas), and when I last raced with him, we walked a Supra with some bolt ons from a dig, and kept him at just under a carlength from a roll. When I drove his older one (used to have one with the Audi version of steptronic, gave it to my blood cousin, his wife and got a new one), I was able to whup an Audi TT and a a nicely modded WRX, and got my ass handed to me by a turboed E36 ///M.

I just checked Neuspeed's sight, and noticed they didn't have anything for a mid 90's 1.8T Jetta. Im not a VDub nut, so I don't know if they just didn't have one available in the midninties, but all the later model ones I've seen, most are the 1.8T. If you are looking at the older like, early ninties, late eighties Jettas, I didn't see any chips for the 1.8Ts at all. So you might be SOL with that.

If you wanna go European, take the Audi/VDub 1.8T, because those, unlike most other Euro cars, dont need a whole lotta cash to go fast. The only one downside is that if you cant find one still covered by factory warrenty, then chances are it might cost a nice penny to get 'em fixed. Like I said, though, if I wasn't in a Bimmer, I'd most definately be in an Audi.

Okay, thanks. I was looking at the 2000ish models anyways as I definately like the styling better too. Anyways, if I chip it, does reliability go down or would it stay the same as a stock model? Still looking around for that perfect Audi/VDub though so nothing is final yet...

Thanks for all of the help! I really appreciate it.

Edit: Okay, I've done some researching and I'm starting to learn more about chipping. Just a couple questions. I've read about the 1.8T but what's the 20V? Is that a different motor? Also, right now, I'm looking at the Sentra SE-R, Jetta, Passat, and Golf. Which do you think I should get? Would the VDubs run circles around the Nissan after chipped? Thank you.

The 1.8T are meant to be turboed, so I doubt that adding a chip is gonna hurt reliability. And yeah, chipping any newer Audi/VDub 1.8T, and you will run circles around the SE-R. The best time I've ever seen an SE-R run with minor bolt ons (intake and exaust) with a bad ass driver was a 15.1, Yet with just a chip and another minor bolt on (I think it was a downpipe), I saw a Golf run a 14.2, and the 1.8T GTIs can run low to mid 14s with just the chip. Plus if you get the VDub, your getting a car with a motor meant to be thrashed, a suspension that offers a mix between comfort and sportiness, and famed German reliablity.

Awesome thanks. Still trying to decide whether to get the Golf or Passat though. I think I'll go with the Golf as they also get a solid 25 MPG. Thanks!