Civic -vs- Scion tC

Hey all friday at the track i raced my buddys Scion tC. I have a 93 civic D16z and we're both Autos. It was his first time there and my second time, we did 3 runs. I won the first but lost the other 2. We both ended a 17sec in the 1/4. My question would be if i was to start off in D1 and shift up to D2 and what not, would i be able to get a little more from my car? I ask cause when i go from D3 my car shifts automaticly at 7000rpm's a guy told me i could be lossing power with it going that high..... Here go some slips http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/401000-401999/401541_219_full.jpg

Are you the circled time? That time lost all 13 in the 1/4, from what I can see. Which times are yours.
As for going thorugh the gears in an auto, I've heard that it's better to let most stock auto trannies do the work for you. Wait for a more educated response before you go back to the track, though.

Dude, he whupped your butt all 3 times. And if your think physically putting the shift lever into the gears will force them to shift earlier, you are wrong. Your tranny will shift when it deems fit, i.e. depending on your throttle position/speed/rpm's. Most people try to get later shifts by manual putting the shift level into the gears later than the ecu would shift, not earlier. Most ecu's will allow you to shift 500-600 rpm's later by doing this, before the tach cutoff. You could try this, but I would still be hard pressed that it would do much good. How sad that a car with less HP beat you at the track, almost as sad as your ET's. Sell your car and buy a cavalier, you deserve it!

Dude, he whupped your butt all 3 times. And if your think physically putting the shift lever into the gears will force them to shift earlier, you are wrong. Your tranny will shift when it deems fit, i.e. depending on your throttle position/speed/rpm's. Most people try to get later shifts by manual putting the shift level into the gears later than the ecu would shift, not earlier. Most ecu's will allow you to shift 500-600 rpm's later by doing this, before the tach cutoff. You could try this, but I would still be hard pressed that it would do much good. How sad that a car with less HP beat you at the track, almost as sad as your ET's. Sell your car and buy a cavalier, you deserve it!
Don't be knockin' the Cavalier's. An Ecotec or a Twin Cam like mine will pull FAR better numbers than cars like those.

ok to get this out in the open caviquirs suck ass.
not saying a civic is much better (but it really is)
even though your times were slow it is very respectable for your car.

:dunno: i would of swore i won the first run cause he took off a lot later then i did and i past the line before he did plus at the bottom of the slip it says "Right 1st" (maybe i messed up my lights??) oh well, it was only my sec time out and im still learning. a little more practice and im sure i can get a little better with my reaction time. I guess i can try to hold one foot on the Brake and push in the gas a bit to get my rev to go up a bit for a better start.....:confused:

I could've sworn tC's were at least 16 second cars. Does the Auto really slow it down THAT much? Whats the elevation over there?

Don't be knockin' the Cavalier's. An Ecotec or a Twin Cam like mine will pull FAR better numbers than cars like those.


But yet still have a really really hard time breaking high 14's with bolt ons and probably weight reduction too. :rolleyes:

But yet still have a really really hard time breaking high 14's with bolt ons and probably weight reduction too. :rolleyes:
Actually it's not unheard of for a Cavvy with a Twin Cam equipped with the GM Eaton charger to break low 14's with full interior.

As far as w/o forced induction, I'd say some weight reduction and a swapping in various W41 (2.3L Quad4 HO...yes...GM was making 4-bangers pushing over 180 Horses in the late 80's and early 90's) parts along with high flow exhaust and it'll get into the high 14's/very low 15's quite easily.

Also, don't forget that the Twin Cam responds EXTREMELY well to both forced induction and spray. And if you're a loser like me and have a automatic, the Hydramatic 4T40E is a damn tank and will handle PLENTY of power as will the Getrag 5-speed in the manuals.

You can try to throw names around, kids, but at the end of the day a Twin Cam will, bolt on for bolt on, power-adder for power-adder, push more power than a lot of honda motors.

And if you still think that Honda motors are hands down better, then I'd reccomend you take a look at the NHRA rulebook and see which motor has the highest weight restriction placed upon it. A car with a GM Ecotec powerplant is REQUIRED to have more weight than any other type of FWD motor.

Dude, talk about picking interests... WTF??? I have had MANY of friends with a crap-o-quier, and I GUARANTEE that they DO NOT even hold a ember, let alone a candle, to ANY import, including Korean imports, which I dislike very much. Are you aware that your car has a life of about 50k miles? There is a reason GM does not offer anything better than a 3/36 warranty. You must be living a fantasy to think that your POS could even be considered in the same realm as a Honda. The Crap-O-Quier is the 90's Chevette, duh. Are you aware that the company that made your POS has discontinued it, in favor of a bigger, more powerful Cobalt? What is the weather like on your planet? Sell you POS and buy a nice dinner for four...depending on how much gas is in the tank...

Are you aware that your car has a life of about 50k miles?wow.

Sounds like theredpill needs to take thechillpill.

Dude, talk about picking interests... WTF??? I have had MANY of friends with a crap-o-quier, and I GUARANTEE that they DO NOT even hold a ember, let alone a candle, to ANY import, including Korean imports, which I dislike very much. Are you aware that your car has a life of about 50k miles? There is a reason GM does not offer anything better than a 3/36 warranty. You must be living a fantasy to think that your POS could even be considered in the same realm as a Honda. The Crap-O-Quier is the 90's Chevette, duh. Are you aware that the company that made your POS has discontinued it, in favor of a bigger, more powerful Cobalt? What is the weather like on your planet? Sell you POS and buy a nice dinner for four...depending on how much gas is in the tank...
Okay...we'll go line by line.
1 - Ad hominem = useless. Fine a better argument tactic, kiddo.
2 - 50k miles, eh? Funny, my 1992 made it well past 140,000 and was still pulling like a bat out of hell when I sold it. My 97 just rolled over 100,000 and is just as strong as ever.
3 - You need to go re-read what GM offers on warranty's.
4 - Fully aware that the Cavalier is being discontinued. Are you, however, aware that the sunfire is still around a few more years and that the J-body platform has lasted longer than most platforms ever have while still maintaing very high sales? The J-Body has been around since the early 80's
5 - Chevette comparison is faulty. RWD vehicles and FWD vehicles = different car. Different frames, different everything....just plain different.
6 - You need to get your news straight, the Cobalt is not the Cavalier's replacement, the Cavalier has no replacement. J-Body served as the mid-tier entry level compact from GM. It's being replaced with the Aveo, a low-tier compact, and Cobalt, a high-tier compact.
7 - The weather is nice, kinda humid, though.
8 - I actually get between 25 and 30 mpg...so I don't know where you're going with this.

That said, I'd still like you to explain away NHRA weight requirements on the Ecotec.

To everyone else that's not insane - Listen, I really have nothing against Honda's at all. They're not bad cars, they're not my flavor, but to each his own. I say, "do your own thing." But please, remember, just because it's not your taste doesn't give you the right to bash a car that is actually quite reliable, quite zippy, and that is capable of challenging most other cars in it's class very successfully.

honda's have a longer life , more fuel efficiant, and better price than a cavi. no questions
i dont give a fuck about NHRA. we are talking about small engines here.
but like you said "to each thier own"
i can see why one would buy a caviler
i bought a civic because it was less expencive, low maintenace, and more fuel efficaint.

HP numbers mean very little to me becaue i have seen and taken part in beating car with more than 50 HP than me

:rolleyes: Off topic like a mug... oh well good stuff :)

The Scion tCs, pleasantly enough do NOT look like shit, unlike their elder sibling, the xB. Infact, they look pretty neat.


Anyway, back on topic, I heard TRD makes superchargers for the tCs....any numbers on those?

honda's have a longer life , more fuel efficiant, and better price than a cavi. no questions
i dont give a fuck about NHRA. we are talking about small engines here.
but like you said "to each thier own"
i can see why one would buy a caviler
i bought a civic because it was less expencive, low maintenace, and more fuel efficaint.

HP numbers mean very little to me becaue i have seen and taken part in beating car with more than 50 HP than me
Longer Life?

[img]http://www.v6z24.com/pictures/mine/?folder=07mileages&image=150000_miles.jpg[img]
They roll past that all the time. The ecotec's last a lot longer than even the old 3.1's like in that picture, but they were built like damned tanks.

2 - I'm also talking about small enginges. Ecotec 2.2L DOHC I4. Minimum of 2000lb weight requirement.
http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2005/rules/ClassRegulations.pdf

By comparison, b16 - 1800lbs, b18 - 1900lb's, H and K series - 1900lbs

3 - Go check your prices again, a base model cav with an ecotec will run you well under 10k with the new discount and around the 10k mark w/o the program.

4 - 36 Hwy - 1 mpg less than Civic EX and with PLENTY more power. (140 HP)

Wow, a Civic vs Cav flame war... :gives: :sleep: Only one guy here is flaming Cavs - couldn't you just PM him or something? I'm pretty sure the rest of us don't care.

On topic: According to TRD the supercharger adds 25% more horses, so about 35-40hp added to the Scions stock 160hp, or about 200hp. I guess the Scion isn't a hideous car, just not my cup of tea. Why the hell doesn't TRD make a supercharger for the Celica?

Why the hell doesn't TRD make a supercharger for the Celica?

TRD makes most of their goodies for countries abroad. That Celica turbo-4 model was fast as hell and looked really agressive too. TRD had some hand in making that kit.

I cannot even think that someone is sporting the cavalier tip, how *cavalier?*.(hehe, I made a funny) If I didn't have some friends who had bought them, only to have MAJOR issues with them, I will not go into details, you must be one of the 6-7 people who haven't had major issues with your car. They don't handle well at all, they don't hold up to power adders at all, and the have the resell value of a Yugo. You must be kidding when you actually say you sport this car. Are you blind? The reason the NHRA requires a greater weight is because it is based on displacement, not anything else. You are stupid to use this as a main point in your debate. There's a red herring for you, school boy. Why was I able to outrun a 1996 Z-24 with my 1992 Si, both stock? Give up? Because it's the total package that wins, not just numbers. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. What is your final drive ratio? How about your WHP? Exactly, go home, learn what the rest of us already know. It's not like we are posting our Honda shit on your Chevy board, get a life...

in all honesty i really dont like the numders a Super Charger puts on any of the smaller engines, honda or scion. i think that time and $ could be better spent on other mods.

I cannot even think that someone is sporting the cavalier tip, how *cavalier?*.(hehe, I made a funny) If I didn't have some friends who had bought them, only to have MAJOR issues with them, I will not go into details, you must be one of the 6-7 people who haven't had major issues with your car. They don't handle well at all, they don't hold up to power adders at all, and the have the resell value of a Yugo. You must be kidding when you actually say you sport this car. Are you blind? The reason the NHRA requires a greater weight is because it is based on displacement, not anything else. You are stupid to use this as a main point in your debate. There's a red herring for you, school boy. Why was I able to outrun a 1996 Z-24 with my 1992 Si, both stock? Give up? Because it's the total package that wins, not just numbers. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. What is your final drive ratio? How about your WHP? Exactly, go home, learn what the rest of us already know. It's not like we are posting our Honda shit on your Chevy board, get a life...
"Cavalier" is german for gentleman, you ignorant fool. Of course, in that language it's spelled with a "K." Real good joke. You actually just gave a compliment.

As for your friends, they apparently don't know how to take care of cars. The Twin Cam is a VERY solid motor and even the 2.2 that came in the base model was nick-named the "iron duke" for a reason. The newer ecotecs have been proven in foreing markets as remarkably resilient motors.

As far as response to power adders...well...I'll just say this: when's the last time Honda's mass marketed an aftermarket forced induction system designed by in-house engineers? GM's got the Twin Cam Eaton Charger. On an amusing note, you may want to go check out the Cavalier forums, a guy just posted a link to a vid he made in his LD9 that's S/C'd. It runs mid 14's.

As far as NHRA Requirements being based upon displacement, I propose to you two points.
1 - Learn what an H22A or better yet, an H23A. Then check out the Mopar's and the Mazda's. Hey...what do you know, some of them displace equal amounts or even MORE! For the record, the fasted FWD vehicle in existance is powered by an ecotec...so is the #2.
2 - Justify why the class rulebook specifically states that the rules are based on performance. I mean, hell, they even go on to say that all motors are allowed up to a 74mm turbo...except for the ecotec which isn't allowed anything bigger than 70mm.

You may want to learn what you're arguing before you try it.

As far as outrunning a 96 Z24, it has a lot to do with drivers. Try that in these parts with me or any of the Gateway J's and see how far it takes you.

Final drive ratio = 3.91...although I have no idea why you'd want to know that. As far as WHP, an average Z24 kept in good condition will usually put out around 130 to the wheels...also, why do you need to know this?

As far as posting this in a Honda forum...you're right, it's not a chevy forum. Then again, we don't mock other car manufacturers there. I'm sure if we started mocking honda's that they'd throw a fit. I'm just waiting for a substantial claim against my own choice of vehicle as to why you feel you have the right to insult it. Last time I check, you had nothing but heresay and guesswork working for your argument.

As far as posting this in a Honda forum...you're right, it's not a chevy forum. Then again, we don't mock other car manufacturers there. I'm sure if we started mocking honda's that they'd throw a fit.
Bullshit. I can do a search on all the chevy sub forums and find at least a few negative comments. And that goes for all the US domestic boards (the ones that see a good amount of traffic anyways). This is a thread that was supposed to be about a guy with a Civic racing his friend with a Scion. No one cares about Cavaliers here, unless they are giving them props for losing to one or talking about beating one. Enough of the "my car is better than yours" childish shit. Take it to PM's so the rest of us can read intelligent discussions... please. Unless it's classified as a sports car, a stock car is a stock car; slow.It's a sad day when I'm the voice of reason...

Bullshit. I can do a search on all the chevy sub forums and find at least a few negative comments. And that goes for all the US domestic boards (the ones that see a good amount of traffic anyways). This is a thread that was supposed to be about a guy with a Civic racing his friend with a Scion. No one cares about Cavaliers here, unless they are giving them props for losing to one or talking about beating one. Enough of the "my car is better than yours" childish shit. Take it to PM's so the rest of us can read intelligent discussions... please. Unless it's classified as a sports car, a stock car is a stock car; slow.It's a sad day when I'm the voice of reason...
Actually there are some honda guys over on the j-body org website that have lots of respect, both for cavaliers and the other guys have respect for honda's as well. Heck, I was just reading a thread a while ago dedicated to a nice looking honda...look for yourself.
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=6&i=87651&t=87424#87651

This was never meant to be a thing about "my car is better than your car," I was just trying to point out that you shouldn't try to mock a car model that a)You don't know that much about, and b)You really have no justification to mock it.

And you'll never hear me argue that a cavalier IS a sports car...ever...they're just peppy, like an SI is.

I agree with you. There's no reason to put down another car. I've never met or heard of anyone who likes every single kind of car. Everyone has their own opinion on what kind of car they like, and that's the way it should be. Life would be boring if everyone drove the same cars. I didn't mean for the sports car thing to be directed at just the Cavalier. Neither the Cav or the Civic are sports car (neither is the Scion for that matter).

and you act like an EX is not peppy. many base modle cav's are peppy as well.
caviler is not even a common german word, no one uses it anymore, but does any one here really care.

back to the scion and civic now please...

Why the hell doesn't TRD make a supercharger for the Celica?

There is not room for it under the hood. There are a few people with GT's that have gotten an aftermarket hood and strapped on the TRD S/C. TRD tried for a long time to get the S/C to work on the GT-S but they were not successful.

ok ok ok i would be willing to bet that there are more ways to get a civic to be faster than a cavalier.....
take mine for example:
1992 honda civic DX hatchback..
B18C5
trusty old turbonetics T3/T4E
bored and sleeved
Crower 308/309 lift turbo cam
custom made turbo header & down pipe
JE pistons
kelly crank
Universal BLITZ DUAL DRIVE bov
uberdata
ported and polished
turbo and motor have been balanced
AEM fuel managment system
MSD DIS-4 HO ignition system
fluidyne twin-core radiator
spearco intercooler
AEM cam gears
borla turbo back exhaust
venom fuel rail
hks turbo managment system....
there are some others....
whp?......412whp@8750RPM
torque?...235lb/ft@6650RPM
1/4time?...my best is 12.01@105

havnt worked on suspension much yet.... not hooking up the way i would like it to.... ne thing else just holla

cavaliers....lol

Yay, 3 month old topics!!

ok ok ok i would be willing to bet that there are more ways to get a civic to be faster than a cavalier.....
take mine for example:
1992 honda civic DX hatchback..
B18C5
trusty old turbonetics T3/T4E
bored and sleeved
Crower 308/309 lift turbo cam
custom made turbo header & down pipe
JE pistons
kelly crank
Universal BLITZ DUAL DRIVE bov
uberdata
ported and polished
turbo and motor have been balanced
AEM fuel managment system
MSD DIS-4 HO ignition system
fluidyne twin-core radiator
spearco intercooler
AEM cam gears
borla turbo back exhaust
venom fuel rail
hks turbo managment system....
there are some others....
whp?......412whp@8750RPM
torque?...235lb/ft@6650RPM
1/4time?...my best is 12.01@105

havnt worked on suspension much yet.... not hooking up the way i would like it to.... ne thing else just holla

Wow you just proved nothing. Of course modded vs stock a Civic is gonna win. Mod the cavalier too and then its fair. You cant compare two vehicles that dont have similiar work done to them.