US GP

F1 time again, top 10 results after qualifying:

1) Jarno Trulli 1:10.625
2) Kimi Räikkönen 1:10.694
3) Jenson Button 1:11.277
4) Giancarlo Fisichella 1:11.290
5) Michael Schumacher 1:11.369
6) Fernando Alonso 1:11.380
7) Rubens Barrichello 1:11.431 8) Takuma Sato 1:11.497
9) Mark Webber 1:11.527
10) Felipe Massa 1:11.555

As for the race, I'm picking
1st Kimi Räikkönen
2nd Michael Schumacher
3rd Jenson Button

What are everyone else's picks?

Guess it depends on how many Michelins blow or what the teams have to do to make them last the distance. Or maybe it is all just a storm in a teacup? If the problem is as bad as some seem to be saying, and the Ferrari's strike trouble, we could be looking at Jordan/Minardi podium. :eek: :D

Great job Michelin. Hypocrites. Now waiting for some anti-Ferrari spin on this. Stop this farce.

Michelin have single handedly killed F1 as far as the US is concerned, and that's at least.

How are Michelin hypocrites? They simply stuffed up and are admitting it. Man I love it when stuff like this happens. You can almost hear the money disappearing from Bernie's pocket. Good on Michelin for sticking to their guns and not racing. Now if only Ferrari can find some way to screw up it'll be perfect.

That was some weird stuff

Although it is a great shame for all those spectators who paid to attend the race. :(

They're hypocrites because they'd enjoyed a big advantage with the new regulations while Bridgestone had to suffer the consequences of their approach and perhaps mistakes. Once Michelin stuff up big time, they present an ultimatum - change the rules or we won't race. That's hypocricy.

I'm just as sorry for myself as I am for the fans at the track.

And very classy of you to wish good luck to Ferrari.

Sucks for the fans. Michelin should have been ready for the race. Good job on the teams part sitting the race out.

Did you see the Ralf accident that started this whole charade? That is what Michelin are afraid of, it is a safety issue baby. Cars in crowds would be a much quicker way to kill F1 in the US, literally. Michelin would have been hypocrites if the DID race today. By following through on their concerns they are most definitely not being hypocritical. At least on the face of it, perhaps there is some other political/conspiracy theory behind it all. :dunno:

I don't see it as an ultimatum, it was an attempt to find a solution, that quite reasonably the FIA rejected. Why should they change the track or rules at the last moment to advantage the Michelin teams?

Classy to wish Ferrari luck, how so? I'd rather save that for Minardi. Ferrari don't need any more luck to achieve a 1-2 today. A Minardi podium or win would be quite an entry in the record books you have to admit.

:angryfire It's odd how you blame Michelin when actually Max and Bernie are the true bullets that put the hole in F1. If they had allowed some last minute changes the race could have proceeded as planned, but Max and Bernie showed how classless they are. The liabilities on both the owners and suppliers are great if a driver died while racing in unsafe conditions. The legal problems could be astronomical and I don't blame Michelin for their stance. Maybe this will finally put a bullet in Formula 1 and allow teams to control more of what goes on in racing instead of leaving it to two a$$holes who are wagged by Ferrari constantly. Some day they'll realize where they went wrong (I doubt it), but they will not have to worry about it because their billion$ have already been made. I have a special message for Bernie and Max :puke: :puke: :puke: .

Hey, Bernie and Max here's another for the both of you :nutkick:.

This is hidiously funny :>, but what the hell 9 of 10 teams agreed to build the curve (don't know the word in english) on the track but when ferrari said no there was no curve? wtf? ferrari=monopol?

This is ridiculous! I guess it worked out good, sold my tickets yesterday due to health problems in my family. The drivers on the track do not deserve the crap being thrown on the track, but FIA, Michelin, Bernie, Max, etc. they need a good beating.

Michelin acts like this is the first time they been to Indy, if I understand it right this is the 6th time. Tire problems on the first time ok, but after a bunch of times with MULTI MILLION $$$$$$ machines, this is so pathetic I'm almost ready to watch NASCAR.

On the TV they're saying that 9 of the 10 teams actually voted to put a chicane between turns 12 and 13. :eek: Wonder who absented? It wasn't Minardi according to Stodart, so it must have been Jordan or Ferrari.

it was ferrari

Michelin acts like this is the first time they been to Indy, if I understand it right this is the 6th time. Tire problems on the first time ok, but after a bunch of times with MULTI MILLION $$$$$$ machines, this is so pathetic I'm almost ready to watch NASCAR.

It ain't that simple, Michelin are saying they don't know the cause. It could be due to many reasons, a simple fuck up at the factory, unexpected conditions due to resurfacing or a difference in the construction of this years tyres, which are essentially a fresh start due to the change in rules. Remember F1 does not race on a banking anywhere else, nor are the teams allowed to test at Indy before the race. Bridgestone may have more info due to their involvement in IRL but the two series are so different that it's probably not that helpful.

No it is a mistake plain and simple, no way to cover it up so the inevitable has happened. No point getting upset about it. Unless you forked out your hard earned for a ticket to the circus.

This decision had nothing to do with the teams, it was solely with the stewards. And come on - "change the track or we don't race" is nothing but an ultimatum.

These are the very rules that the Michelin teams have benefited from all year, and while I hate them, it seems like the fans of Michelin-shod teams are starting to dislike them now. Boo-hoo.

Michelin suggested the solutions that would clearly penalise Bridgestone-teams for no reason. Whiting presented Michelin and their teams with no less than 3 possible solutions that would not penalise Bridgestone, and they chose not to accept them. It's ridiculous that Ferrari and even the FIA should be blamed for the farce that we're having to watch right now. It solely lies with Michelin as they came to the race unprepared to supply their teams with safe tyres. It was Michelin's approach that brought them so much reward this season, but they, and their teams, and their supporters should be able to take the bad with the good, right?

Phil, guess you'd be throwing bottles onto the track then? In the hope to hit a red car or something.

I hope the public will get a refund for their tickets, and it should come out of Michelin's pockets as it's their mistake and their mistake alone that caused this.

It's only 6 degrees of banking, not like it's Talladega.

Shit Bernie pussed out and already left the track, the french have cut off the TV signal.

Wonder how Ferrari will put their cars in the "correct" order. Mclaren have been quite creative ever since team orders have been made illegal.

Bernie has enough money in his pocket, and quite likely will get more from this.

On another note - if it finishes like this, BAR, the team who were the second best team last season, are going to be dead last in the standings after this farce (typed "race" at first...)

Wow, Rubens is going to be pissed off at Schumi after THAT! :eek:

Phil, guess you'd be throwing bottles onto the track then? In the hope to hit a red car or something.

Jesus, that is a new low for you Alex.

So who are you directing this vitriol at? I'm clearly not upset, I reckon it is great! Michelin made a mistake but did the right thing not to race. The FIA did the right thing, not changing the rule in the name of the "show" and Ferrari did the right thing by voting not to change the track.
Only thing I said is wouldn't it be great if the inevitable failed to happen and a Minardi won or something. Is that any reason to accuse me of attempted murder?

Mclaren have been quite creative ever since team orders have been made illegal.

Any substance to that wild speculation?

OK, it wasn't that close on the replay, seems more like Rubens's late braking. At first I thought Schumi touched him. Don't need to be creative then.

Wow, Rubens is going to be pissed off at Schumi after THAT! :eek:
Or was it all carefully choreographed? :lol: Just following your lead, although I should know better...

Phil, most of that was not actually directed at you. The bottle throwing, though, comes after you said you wish Ferrari screw up, and I stand by my comment.

Substance - come on. At least 3 races in 2003 and ... 2005 Canadian GP.

Phil, most of that was not actually directed at you. The bottle throwing, though, comes after you said you wish Ferrari screw up, and I stand by my comment.

Substance - come on. At least 3 races in 2003 and ... 2005 Canadian GP.

Don't you ever accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist - Canada 2005 - laughable! :lol:

So you stand by the throwing things at Ferrari's comment. :disappoin

Weren't you the one who accused Mclaren of favouratism and screwing up JPM's race?

And I think you know better than to take the bottle throwing literaly, and are just trying to take the high road when there really isn't one to take. You wished Ferrari drivers bad luck, not unlike the people who actually throw bottles on the racetrack. You're smart enough to know that I know you wouldn't literaly do that, even "the you" when it comes to F1. Think about it.

Watched this and can only say that somebody at McLaren deserves a swift kick up the arse. A wasted opportunity at an almost certain 1-2 lost because of favouritism towards Kimi. Montoya deserved to win it, but the team didn't want him to it seems. :thumbsdow

:icon16:

Quotes from the team show I was wrong about that, Ron had actually ordered Kimi to hold station before Jenson hit the wall. McLaren were just caught off guard by the safety car and Montoya missed the pit. Still a screw up, but not intentional it seems. I guess only those in the team can really know. :dunno:

So it was a cheap shot? Never woulda guessed. :lol:

A thanks for using me a such a valued reference. If it is for my benefit it's wasted because I know what I wrote in the heat of the moment. :loser:

Done, results as you would expect.
Now, on a more interesting note what does this mean for the qualifying order next race?

You're getting old, so thought I'd remind you :p

Mclaren did not send DC out on dry tyres out at Indy 2003 by accident, neither was Kimi going by DC in Britain and then during the pitstops at Japan that year. Whenever they (and by they I pretty much mean any team) have a sniff of the title, they'll do anything to get it. I see nothing wrong with team orders per se, but they're illegal. Maybe you view team orders as bluntly ordering a driver to let another driver through, whereas I consider all the above as team orders.

Can't believe they let this farce to go all the way for 73 laps. At least it seems over. Weird that Schumacher was told that Kimi will be given 8th place, as far as I know, none of the teams that didn't not participate in the race will be classified.

Alex, I have said time and time again I have no problem with team orders. Austria 2002 was no big deal in my book. Stupid, but to be expected from a paranoid organization such as Ferrari. It is the tiresome attempt to even the ledger by the apparently guilty feeling Ferrari fans that I find irksome. End of that particular tedious line of conspiracy theories please, they are flimsy at best, deluded more likely.

Agree, you need to complete 90% (or so) of the race distance to be classified and score points.

A shame the crowd is booing the podium finishers, it's not their fault.

Will F1 come back to the US next year? There were talks of another race in Vegas - guess those plans can be firmly canned now.

Oh, and Ferrari 1-2. Weee! :iceslolan We'll take it.

Briatore is so mad :rolleyes: I understand him, of course, but I hope his anger is directed towards the real culprit.

Sorry, Phil, but that's not what you were saying back in 2002.

I wasn't on this board in the 2002 season Alex, so I wonder how you know what I was saying. Hmmm?

My mistake. Not "in" 2002 but "about" 2002. But I'm willing to end this particular line of discussion.

Well with people like you guys beating this up as if it was the end of the world, I wouldn't be surprised if this is the last Indy GP. Stuff like this can happen, get over it.

No great loss, F1 doesn't belong at Indy anyway. Move to one of the great US road courses like Watkins Glen.

But I'm willing to end this particular line of discussion.
Mercy!

Road Atlanta!

I don't think I should be classified as one who's acting like it's the end of the world. I certainly enjoyed it (the fact more tahn the process). I am, however, realist enough to see that there will be very few viewers who will understand what went on, and even less so in America.

Mercy or merci? :)

Mercy or merci? :)

I leave that up to you. :) Imagine the "Big O" singing/saying it if that helps...

Wow, I took 3 days off work and spent over $1500 for airline tickets, hotel, and race tickets for that?!?! Also met some people who spent a lot more coming from Columbia, Sweden, England, etc. This is so rediculous I don't even know what to say. I'm too goddamn tired from all the bullshit to even have an opinion on the situation. This was my first F1 race and it was supposed to be a great experience. And it was, up until about 1:15 PM on June 19.

I'm actually surprised how well the fans took it. 150,000+ people paid good money to see a race and were shit on by everybody involved in F1. Thankfully most people realized it wasn't the fault of IMS and nothing was destroyed at the track. F1 is going to have a real hard time recovering from this in the US.

I want a refund, for everything, NOW. And if I get that refund, maybe, just MAYBE I'll think about supporting another F1 race. :rolleyes:

EDIT - I'll change my signature later. Now I need to get drunk and try to forget how much money I wasted. :banghead:

So sorry to hear that blindside.AMG. :( I really feel sorry for guys like you. It's okay for us just watching on the other side of the world but for those who were hoping to see something special it must come as a slap in the face.

I'm pleased to hear that most of the fans were smart enough to understand what was going on and how inevitable it was given the lack of compassion from the parties involved. To put a positive spin on it you experienced history today my friend.

Boycotts suck...what the michelin teams should have done instead to boycott is to circle the track at around 60 km/h the whole race...that would be sweet.

I woke up this morning, caught the part where the cars were driving into the podium and saw a Ferrari 1-2 and was like "AWESOME!" and then I heard "Jordans first podium" and went wtf? Then I heard the crowd booing and my impression was "What has Michael done now? Then heard about the boycott.

There is nobody to blame but Michillen. Why should the rules be bent for them? If they got bent in the same way for Ferrari/Bridgestone there'd be an even bigger shit storm. Good decision by the FIA, good decision by Todt.

Not feeling at all sorry for any of the Michellin-running teams, I only feel sorry for the fans who paid to see that.

So sorry to hear that blindside.AMG. :( I really feel sorry for guys like you. It's okay for us just watching on the other side of the world but for those who were hoping to see something special it must come as a slap in the face.

I'm pleased to hear that most of the fans were smart enough to understand what was going on and how inevitable it was given the lack of compassion from the parties involved. To put a positive spin on it you experienced history today my friend.

Yeah, overall I had a real good time at Indy. It would've been perfect if they actually raced and Kimi took 1st place. :)

I think if F1 wants to see a crowd next season for the USGP they better have Scott Speed in a car riding on Goodyear tires!! :grinyes: Oh, and if they want to see me there, it'll have to be in Long Beach or Las Vegas because I'm not risking airfare and hotel rates to see another boycott.

i never like Michelin tires anyway lol :tongue:

i never like Michelin tires anyway lol :tongue:

True, if I learned one thing from this it's knowing which tires to NEVER buy. Thanks Michelin!! :thumbsup:

Heres some correspondence between the FIA and Michelin:

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/190605-02.html
http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/190605-03.html

It's odd how some continue to blame Michelin when they tried everything within their power to have a race, but were denied any concessions by the FIA. Had Ralf been mortally injured and Michelin's tires found to be at fault, then they are subject to manslaughter charges for knowingly letting dirvers race on defective tires. That my friends could have been the situation had Michelin allowed the drivers to race. BUT and I repeat BUT in the name of safety, Michelin advised the teams not to race. Michelin was willing to fly in new tires for the race (request denied by FIA) - they were willing to race with a chicane - geez that would have been too easy and would have been an equal challenge for each team (request denied by the FIA). I ask all of you what was Michelins choice.

No there are no Michelins on my car, and I don't by their tires. They were locked into a corner by the FIA, and had no other choice but to err on the side of safety. So go crucify them because they were not willing to risk the lives of of the drivers. Sounds to me like the :screwy: one is the FIA. Kind of like running into a brick wall :banghead: .

First off, you don't seem to have much understanding of what's going on and come off just as a sore loser. now about some of your points.

It's odd how some continue to blame Michelin when they tried everything within their power to have a race

Did they try bringing tyres taht would actually last the race, as is required by the regulations? If they did not, whose fault exactly is that?

BUT and I repeat BUT in the name of safety, Michelin advised the teams not to race. Michelin was willing to fly in new tires for the race (request denied by FIA) - they were willing to race with a chicane - geez that would have been too easy and would have been an equal challenge for each team (request denied by the FIA). I ask all of you what was Michelins choice.


Michelin were given no less than 3 clear choices by the FIA and took none of those. So much for "did everything they could to have the race". Your statement that the FIA refused to allow them Barcelona tyres is a blatant lie, as it was one of the 3 choices given to Michelin by the FIA. In fact, the tyre company themselves deemed those tyres unsafe as well. Why should they have made a chicane? If the tyres are not able to take one particular corner at full speeds, they could just as well instructed their teams to either go slowly through that corner or drive through the pitlane (yet another choice offered by the FIA). All the chicane would've done would be compromise the race of the Bridgestone teams, even though they worked hard and came prepared. The chicane idea was a joke from the beginning, and the FIA were never going to allow that. I do suggest you read up the correspondence between Michelin and the FIA.

News today is Max has summoned the Michelin teams to an FIA hearing. Will no doublt impose some sort of punishment and award the championship to Ferrari. :rolleyes:

michelin didnt test at the track, its there fault to some degree, but the FIA are a bunch of twits, so i think the blame should be split between the two. i wonder where the US GP will be held next year.

Did they try bringing tyres taht would actually last the race, as is required by the regulations? If they did not, whose fault exactly is that?
There is actually no such regulation Alex. Teams are not allowed to change tyres, just as they are not allowed to change engines. Should a team be penalised whenever a car fails to finish because of an engine blow up? They should if the regulations say the engines have to last two races (but they don't - see my point? :screwy:). Michelin did not deliberately bring tyres that couldn't last but purely and simply fucked up. They accepted it as their fault. Nothing to discuss.

Michelin were given no less than 3 clear choices by the FIA and took none of those.
And the FIA took none of Michelins - stalemate.

So much for "did everything they could to have the race". Your statement that the FIA refused to allow them Barcelona tyres is a blatant lie, as it was one of the 3 choices given to Michelin by the FIA. In fact, the tyre company themselves deemed those tyres unsafe as well
Exactly, Barcelona tyres would have attracted a penalty and quite probably not helped with the safety issue of the tyres in turn 13. So not a viable option.

Why should they have made a chicane? If the tyres are not able to take one particular corner at full speeds, they could just as well instructed their teams to either go slowly through that corner or drive through the pitlane (yet another choice offered by the FIA).
But would that have been racing? Would it have been safe to have such high speed differential or cars constantly rejoining from the pitlane? Look at the mess Barrichello almost ended up in... Again not a viable option, would have been just as much a farce and attracted just as much of an outcry. Besides who is to say what the minimum speed through turn 13 should be? How could Michelin prevent an over zealous driver damaging his tyres and ending up in the crowd? Stupid, stupid suggestion, and rightfully rejected. At the end of the day the course of action Michelin took resulted in nobody being hurt. Would the FIA's have done the same thing? We'll never know, but the potential for injury was there. In the most litigious country on the planet that is a very big deal.

All the chicane would've done would be compromise the race of the Bridgestone teams, even though they worked hard and came prepared.
For sure the Bridgestone teams quite rightfully should not have to support such a thing, but then why did two out of three do exactly that? :dunno: Only one team as ever was on the outer. No dig at Ferrari, they did what was right for them.

The chicane idea was a joke from the beginning, and the FIA were never going to allow that. I do suggest you read up the correspondence between Michelin and the FIA.
The chicane idea was quite ridiculous but not without precedent. In fact the FIA and stewards changing the race because of a tyre deficiency experienced by just one manufacturer is not without precedent either. So why was the 2005 USGP different to those occasions? Everybody in this case played hardball, did what was right for them alone and the result was the fans got screwed. If people want to single out a particular party and blame them solely for everything then I suggest they are biased that way to begin with.

Time to go back to the good ol' days of one single default tire manufacturer...the highest bidder gets to be the supplier...bring back goodyear!

I think Michelin and the FIA are the ones to blame. Michelin should have given their teams the right tires to be able to run around the curve. The FIA should have atleast tried to compromise instead of telling them to run slower, change tires every ten laps (after verifying it witht he officials) or face a penalty and change the tires. I don't believe people should be blaming Ferrari though, why would they want to change the course after practicing and qualifying.

News today is Max has summoned the Michelin teams to an FIA hearing. Will no doublt impose some sort of punishment and award the championship to Ferrari. :rolleyes:

A million dollars "for a podium ceremony" comes to mind.

There is actually no such regulation Alex.

Philosophy. You know exactl what I mean.

They accepted it as their fault. Nothing to discuss.


Yes and no. I would like them to accept the blame full stop, without trying to weasel out of it by still pointing the finger somewhere else.


And the FIA took none of Michelins - stalemate.

And rightly so - it was Michelin's mistake and fault, not the FIA's, and they should have been the ones to compromise.

Exactly, Barcelona tyres would have attracted a penalty and quite probably not helped with the safety issue of the tyres in turn 13. So not a viable option.


Well, the idea originally came from Michelin themselves, and the FIA did agree to that, only for Michelin to change their minds, however right their reasons for that were. But it is a lie to say that the FIA refused to grant the permission, which was my point.

For sure the Bridgestone teams quite rightfully should not have to support such a thing, but then why did two out of three do exactly that? :dunno: Only one team as ever was on the outer. No dig at Ferrari, they did what was right for them.


Correction - Ferrari wouldn't have agreed to that had they been asked. They weren't. A chicane would have easily become a safety issue for Bridgestone runners (you know that, some others might need to be pointed at that fact), and there is no way that should be allowed. Bridgestone could really have used a couple of chicanes at, let's say, Bahrain and Malaysia.


The chicane idea was quite ridiculous but not without precedent. In fact the FIA and stewards changing the race because of a tyre deficiency experienced by just one manufacturer is not without precedent either. So why was the 2005 USGP different to those occasions? Everybody in this case played hardball, did what was right for them alone and the result was the fans got screwed. If people want to single out a particular party and blame them solely for everything then I suggest they are biased that way to begin with.

Show me a single person who has some interest in F1 who isn't. At Monza 1996 they had tyres placed at the chicane, remember how much fun that ended up to be? Though it worked well as far as the result was concerned (narrowly - one of my most vivd memories of those days, a Eurosport commentator articulating slowly every syllable - "Mi-cha-el Schu-ma-cher, what are you doing???"